Comment about unschooling has me shaking my head

[LittleIzumi]

Right here:

Taking Children Seriously

Non-Coercive Parenting

[Annie Laurie]

Wow. I am a former unschooler and a current relaxed/child-directed/eclectic schooler and I would never, ever, EVER let the girls play video games all day. Or dh, for that matter :lol:. They can learn those skills in other, less trance-inducing, mind-numbing ways. IMO. They can learn information AND problem-solving skills together. (The Sponge learned to read at 3 with unschooling. But with reading books, not with watching TV or playing video games....)

 

My oldest was unschooled for a couple of years and we still had limits on video games too. But I wasn't a radical unschooler.

[Anne Rittenhouse]

It is my opinion that 16 hours of video games a day will get you this. http://www.peopleofwalmart.com/?p=6017 It will not matter where or how you school the child.

Edited November 2, 2009 by Anne Rittenhouse

[stripe]

It is a little out of context. What I wrote was,

"I mean any guided instruction of any sort from their parent. I don't think you need worksheets and textbooks for guided instruction. All you need is an attentive, active parent.

There is nothing attentive or active about a video game no matter how you dress it up and what words you use."

I don't think video games are attentive and active forms of guided instruction by a parent or teacher for education.

There are definitely active video games out there and video games that simulate pilots and military training. However, there isn't a video game out there that can take the place of an attentive, active parent.

You're right -- I did get your intention wrong. Very sorry about that. I clearly read too fast. I very much agree with you, and I think you make an excellent point that is too often overlooked! I think putting your children in front of a video game / tv screen is very much like surrendering responsibility for their education.

 

I don't believe that education is like forcing your kids to eat their fruits and vegetables -- that's actually one part of WTM I always groan when I read (what kid refuses to try a strawberry anyway?) -- I think the idea that something so natural to a child as a vegetable or fruit would be rejected, and that somehow this is akin to children's rejection of learning, makes me extremely sad. I think people naturally like to eat well and like to learn. The lowest common denominator approach does not actually make everyone happy.

 

Anyway, it's funny, I remember reading when I was a kid, a book about how modern school takes place at home, and is basically via video game / some sort of internet type medium. Does anyone else remember this?

[Pip]

John Holt coined the term "unschooling" to describe taking the children out of the traditional school setting and letting them pursue their interests. It was about intellectual stimulation. The parents need to be ready and willing to jump on whatever the kids want and carry that interest as far as possible. You have to provide an intellectually stimulating atmosphere through a ton of books lying around, lots of field trips, mentors, etc. This is actually hard work, but the kids I know who are unschooled this way are some of the most interesting and well read children I have met.

 

The radical unschoolers have taken this to what I consider to be extremes.

 

I have had to stay away from the unschooling yahoo groups because I cannot stomach the people who are completely hands off, refuse to use any textbook even if their child expressed an interest in something, and just leave the kids to "figure it out on their own." I read a thread where the moms were discussing the merits of just letting the kids eat whatever they want because eventually they will figure out they feel better when they eat well. They don't ask their kids to clean up because they will finally realize that a neat house is pleasant to live in.

 

I try very hard to let my kids follow their interests. My 2 oldest are interested in astronomy and marine biology. They learn stuff from the History Channel and the Science Channel, but they also know nothing beats a good book on a subject.

 

The person referenced in the OP would find me weird. I'm still wondering if getting a Wii for Christmas is going to cause havoc to reign in the house!

[Haiku]

I used to read so much from Sandra Dodd on her yahoo groups and I did feel like her kind of unschooling was not about everyone's needs being equal. Mom was supposed to be open to anything the kids wanted to do at all times, no matter how much it inconvenienced her, or how much extra work it created for her.

 

:iagree:

 

I always thought she was a bit of a nut-job, honestly.

 

Tara

[Tidbits of Learning]

You're right -- I did get your intention wrong. Very sorry about that. I clearly read too fast. I very much agree with you, and I think you make an excellent point that is too often overlooked! I think putting your children in front of a video game / tv screen is very much like surrendering responsibility for their education.

 

I don't believe that education is like forcing your kids to eat their fruits and vegetables -- that's actually one part of WTM I always groan when I read (what kid refuses to try a strawberry anyway?) -- I think the idea that something so natural to a child as a vegetable or fruit would be rejected, and that somehow this is akin to children's rejection of learning, makes me extremely sad. I think people naturally like to eat well and like to learn. The lowest common denominator approach does not actually make everyone happy.

 

Anyway, it's funny, I remember reading when I was a kid, a book about how modern school takes place at home, and is basically via video game / some sort of internet type medium. Does anyone else remember this?

I don't remember a book about it, but I remember shows similar to Dateline or 20/20 covering the advantages of technology and education and how we would have super genuises entering kindergarten because of technology.

Everybody bought into Baby Einstein videos as well. This week I saw that Disney is offering a refund to anyone because it has been proven that TV at that young of an age is not beneficial but harmful. I couldn't imagine wanting a tv or computer or video game to replace me teaching my child.

I have used cd-roms to supplement my kids education and for fun, but it is all in moderation.

Has anyone noticed the trend in the toy section to more video game based educational toys. They are loud and overstimulating and don't encourage fine motor skills or imagination. My oldest was born in 2000 and you could still find decent toys in the toy department. It is hard with my youngest who was born in 2006 to find those same style toys for a normal price and not geared for education and children with delays.

It is almost as if when we buy things that are actually geared for our children's ages and developmental skills that we are labelling our children slow b/c we aren't buying a baby computer or "educational" video game for them.

I had bought a lot of educational toys for my ds6.5 when he was 3 and behind on his motor skills. I had bought into a lot of the electronic, educational gadgetry with him. I was on the phone telling my mom about the Melissa and Doug things that I had bought him. She kept saying how much did you pay for that? Those were called toys not educational when you were a kid and they definitely weren't that expensive.

I think the more immersed in technology at such a young age that society becomes the less social skills and people skills our children will have. I see it in myself as well. I can spend hours on the computer and get upset with the kids for interrupting me. I can honestly say that a break from technology would probably help my family as a whole.

I think spending 16 hours on a video game (or any electronic device) would make you lose touch with reality and real life.

[angela in ohio]

I always thought she was a bit of a nut-job, honestly.

 

 

:iagree:

[Snickerdoodle]

Has anyone noticed the trend in the toy section to more video game based educational toys?

 

I hate the big-name, big-box toy stores. There is a relatively large mom and pop toy store near my father's house that has NO electronic toys. I LOVE that place.

[swellmomma]

I have had to stay away from the unschooling yahoo groups because I cannot stomach the people who are completely hands off

 

I also stay away from the unschooling yahoo groups. This one is one for all homeschoolers in a city in my province(not my own city). However, the unschoolers are very vocal and tend to drown out the "voices" of the other homeschoolers trying to make a point of why unschooling is the only right method to homeschool and everything else is just wrong to subject a child too. (that is a point that I actually discussed with them last week ;) , and learned how many classical, CM, unit study etc homeschoolers are actually on the list)

 

I was on the phone telling my mom about the Melissa and Doug things that I had bought him. She kept saying how much did you pay for that? Those were called toys not educational when you were a kid and they definitely weren't that expensive.

 

 

:iagree:I love Melissa and Doug toys, they are classic, fun, stimulate their imaginations, and wooden which is great in this plastic world. But oh my goodness the price of them is crazy.

 

 

 

We have a wii and just bought the wii fit so the kids(and I) could use it for extra fitness/fun on days too nasty to get outside. I use my computer far too much, though I limit the kids. I agree with helping your kids discover and explore their passions, that is a part of unschooling I am totally on board with. I am put off about unschooling as a whole though because I have found among those I talk to in this province, it is simply the lazy way out of homeschooling to claim you are unschooling. I have known of many who believe in no limits on computers/video games. NOt ust no time limits but n age restrictions on games etc either. I have just never encountered anyone actually planning to give a presentation on the validity of this as a "method" for homeschooling. It is hser's like that, that give teh rest of us a bad name.

 

In my province we have a fair amount of regulation, every year they make it a little tighter. A large percentage of the homeschoolers here claim to be unschoolers. The gov't sees that a large amount of those parents are not actually giving their kids an education and tighten the regulations on everyone. I don't think that everyone should be classically homeschooling, but really wish those that unschool would actually be active in their kids educations/lives. Simply being in teh same house as them is not homeschooling, you need to actually be active in their lives as a pp pointed out.

 

On that note I should turn off this technology and start our school week. First up on the agenda start reading Viking Adventure to the kids.

[stripe]

John Holt coined the term "unschooling" to describe taking the children out of the traditional school setting and letting them pursue their interests. It was about intellectual stimulation. The parents need to be ready and willing to jump on whatever the kids want and carry that interest as far as possible. You have to provide an intellectually stimulating atmosphere through a ton of books lying around, lots of field trips, mentors, etc. This is actually hard work, but the kids I know who are unschooled this way are some of the most interesting and well read children I have met.

I just read one of his books (I guess an early one), and it did not strike me at all that he thought just sitting around was the way to go. He seemed to feel that there was too much pressure to get kids to pretend they understood and just give up, instead of actually explaining things well and having them see how things worked for themselves. I definitely agree that having a WELL EDUCATED guide is critical to this. In a thread several months ago I was (rather surprisingly to me!) accused of being offensive / antagonistic for saying that I admired the bravery of homeschoolers as being ready to take on everyone and everything without a set plan -- being educated enough to tackle and assimilate so many subject areas. ha. I was told in no uncertain terms that they are not smarter, braver, or better prepared and do not admire them. Hmm.

[Rosy]

I knew a family where the this was happening, sort of. I don't think it was for philosophical reasons though. The mom had left the dad, took custody of the kids, and pulled them out of school. The oldest (a teen) played computer games for 16 hours a day--literally. The daughter (a young teen) took care of the 4 year old, and I'm not sure what the 8 year old did. It was awful. We were friends with the dad and he was eventually able to take custody of all 4 kids, put them in school, and then she was able to clean up her act and get a job and start functioning on a basic human level.

 

I know there's a difference between choosing a radical unschooling lifestyle and just getting overwhelmed and falling apart...but at this extreme, I'm not sure if there's a difference in the effect on the kids. Either way it's educational neglect.

[kalanamak]

I don't remember a book about it, but I remember shows similar to Dateline or 20/20 covering the advantages of technology and education and how we would have super genuises entering kindergarten because of technology.

.

 

I remember a show, many years back, about a rural private school, church-based, in which every child sat at a computer with little cubie walls between each one, and did their work. The teacher went around the room and briefly poked her head down to see if the child was progressing. "Yes, good work" "That's fine." "See the addition sign?" "Great." The entire school was a room full of computers. Not a blackboard in sight.

 

This was the popular wave of Skinner's "programmed learning" gone onto the screen. I was appalled.I wonder where those kids are today.

[stripe]

I still can't think of what that book was, but how about this video? (Do watch it! It's funny.)

 

http://modmom.blogspot.com/2008/03/homeschooling-in-future_18.html

[Mom-ninja.]

That's putting all your faith into the internet. What happens if a person can't/doesn't have internet?

 

Knowing how to navigate the internet is not knowledge. At least not in my book.

[Mom-ninja.]

In a thread several months ago I was (rather surprisingly to me!) accused of being offensive / antagonistic for saying that I admired the bravery of homeschoolers as being ready to take on everyone and everything without a set plan -- being educated enough to tackle and assimilate so many subject areas. ha. I was told in no uncertain terms that they are not smarter, braver, or better prepared and do not admire them. Hmm.

 

You can admire me if you'd like. I don't mind. :tongue_smilie:

[Tracey in TX]

That's putting all your faith into the internet. What happens if a person can't/doesn't have internet?

 

Knowing how to navigate the internet is not knowledge. At least not in my book.

 

Every person is the US should have access to internet. The problem lies in that we still need people to design, develop, problem solve, and articulate in multi-sylabic text using one's own intellect. To rely solely on the great grey box has allowed our children's generation to become a-literate.

 

Certainly unschooling has a place in the teaching/learning realm, but to encourage day-long video games is irresponsible parenting. (My boys and DH are die-hard video gamers, so this is in my area of reality.) Learning should be multi-faceted. Tactile manipulatives, old fashioned books, rote memorization, and technology should all be utilized to prepare the kids for what lies ahead. There are so many options available to teach. Why sit the kid in front of the tv all day, every day under the auspices of education?

[G5052]

I see the whole spectrum because I teach both homeschool co-op classes and at the local community college. So I see some upsetting cases of educational neglect (IMHO) and then what happens to those students when they try to go to college. And I see some cases where homeschooled students are wonderfully prepared and go on to graduate at or near the top of the community college class with full scholarships to a 4-year college.

 

Mostly I keep my mouth shut though. From my standpoint as a college professor, the homeschooled students as a whole are not any better or any worse than those who went through the classroom. The ones who have been homeschooled WELL are of course different, but I've taught some pretty articulate classroom students too.

[LibraryLover]

I think part of the problem here is the delivery, the messenger. Even from the most die -hard unschoolers I know, there is often a frustration that the spokesperson can sometimes be somewhat hostile. Now, I can go either way on this. It could be hostility, it could aslo be age/greater experience, and/or wanting to get right to the to the point; not pussy -footing around with your opinions. I can appreciate both points of view.

 

I think radical unschooling takes a lot of thought and a lot of trust in yourself and in your child. I have seen some wonderful families with wonderful kids. I myself have my crutches in using resources perhaps more than some unschoolers would. They make me feel safe, that I have some reference, some guidance if I need it. I ejoy SOTW resources, for one. I don't used them as some would, but i like having them around.

 

However, a lot of unschoolers believe using any kind of curric is unhealthy and keeps you from natural curiosity and natural unfolding. I have seen my kids take resources and run with them, but they have also said "Gah, no!". lol I know I enjoy my children's natural curiosity and respect it above all else. But i still refer to my resources...and that is what separates me from real unschoolers...my crutches. I also believe that some skills take more practice than others, and we talk about that frequently. We have discussions about whether knowing your Times Tables is important vs simply understanding how it works, or whether copy work is helpful or just busy work, whether handwriting needs to be practiced or whether typing is enough. etc. My children seem to get me and indulge me. I try to be very honest with them about my biases-- and I present them as such.

 

OTOH, I feel need no for crutches for bedtimes, say, or food. they can eat what they want. They sleep in or get up early as they need to. (Of course we talk about nutrition and such) We don't punish, We don't hit, we don't shame. That goes to curric as well. I would never use my resources or crutches to punish or shame. There is obviously no punishment or negative consequences for not 'doing math' or not reading a book etc.

 

It feels that we are on an adventure together, as a family, however imperfect we are. I think there are many ways to live a loving, satisfying life.

Edited November 14, 2009 by LibraryLover

[mcconnellboys]

Well, I thought maybe she was talking about playing certain types of learning rich games, but I guess that's not the case.

 

And what happens to them if the Internet in the future gets disrupted long-term, somehow? Say through solar flare disruptions, changes in the magnetic field of the earth, war, other sorts of disruptions that might result from political and/or economic collapses? I'm just thinking into the future, for their entire lives, those of their own children, etc. Can we really know that all humanity will be able to access the Internet for all purposes indefinitely into the future? Should we really bind ourselves that tightly to technology? I guess that's a little scary to me.

 

Maybe if the world goes wireless and we can all strap (or embed) laptops into our bodies somehow, so that they can truly become part of us - maybe then we could be more assured of being able to rely so thoroughly on the Internet, but it still just doesn't seem that good an idea to me.

 

And as for the so-called skills that computer games will teach them - it has been my personal experience that large amounts of computer games diminish or extinguish things such as creativity, initiative and curiosity. People skills can be learned from being alone with a computer? Ummmm, no. Computer geeks have been notoriously anti-social and inept in social situations for decades already. Can we expect this to get better with MORE alone time?

 

Even the military has realized that computer simulations sans brain stimulators such as smell, taste, sound, and other environmental factors are not all that effective. Until such time as we've evolved to respond best to the stimulation of computers alone, they do not serve to equip us FULLY for any REAL world environment.

[LibraryLover]

I think , for the sake of this discussion, it's very important to read other things about RU as some of the best resources and ideas come from RU. I don't know any RU who are not offering a rich environment filled with options and possibilities. That some children will choose one thing over other things does not mean that 'other things' are not possible or presented.

[Sputterduck]

Every person is the US should have access to internet.

 

How so? I lived in the mountains where internet service was very expensive. If you couldn't afford it, it wasn't like there was a public library to go to out there. lol

 

The best we could afford cost us over 100 per month and it only got us an 800k connection. You can't do much anymore on less than 1meg.

 

If we were any more rural, there wouldn't have been an option for internet at all.

[MamaBearTeacher]

If a child is not given the opportunity to play video games at all can this be bad? Are there important skills that they will be missing? I'm just wondering because my kids don't play partly due to their disabilities, partly because I always considered it a dumb activity and partly because I don't know anything about video games myself and wouldn't know what to buy - so, I haven't bought them any.

 

I have found this discussion interesting. I never had anything against unschooling before but I did not know that there is a whole segment of the population that let their kids play video games all day for ideological reasons! You would think that if they really cared about their children's education that after a few weeks of watching them play video games all day they would reevaluate whether the ideology was working in practice.

[Haiku]

Are there important skills that they will be missing?

 

I can't imagine so. Humanity flourished for eons without video games, so I doubt there are skills that can only (or most easily) be learned via video games.

 

My kids don't play any video games, and I have not noticed them lagging behind their peers in any way (except perhaps my 15 year old, who doesn't know what some of the popular games are ... but then again, knowing that is not a skill, and I don't consider not spending your time talking about video games to be lagging behind ...)

 

Tara

[stripe]

There are some visual skills that appear to be easily, quickly, and dramatically improved by playing video games due to the nature of visual stimulation. This may not be an issue for someone with excellent vision, but may be helpful for those with quite poor vision and/or certain eye diseases. (This has been studied by those at the University of Rochester's department of Brain & Cognitive Sciences.) Perhaps there are other ways in which video games can assist in developing certain regions of the brain.

 

However, because education, whether in school or at home or another venue, does not normally concern itself with resolution/treatment of medical problems, this seems an issue that would be tackled by either family members or medical professionals as a medical issue rather than primarily for educational purposes.