US History that tells the truth?

[shinyhappypeople]

Is there a US history curriculum out there that doesn't turn Columbus into a hero and that offers a more honest, objective accounting of our history and leaders?

 

How do Sonlight, MFW and TOG handle early North American exploration and founding of the US?

 

My husband is of Native American ancestry (MIL is Choctaw) and so this is personal for us.:) I'm not looking for something that vilifies Europeans, but a curriculum that simply tells the truth - good and bad - and offers different perspectives, not just the standard European POV.

 

I hope I explained that all right. It's difficult for me to articulate exactly what I mean.

[lionfamily1999]

Ime, the newer books shoot in the other direction. I haven't looked at the ones you mentioned, I mean this in a general sense. Columbus, Smith, and many others (the Puritans) are villified to the point where... well... we've gotten to the other extreme iykwIm. I have found that reading the diaries and papers of the people being discussed helps in balancing out povs.

 

Hth

[Ravin]

It seems to me that, particularly for the last few centuries, a hands-on primary sources approach to history, rather than relying on textbooks, gives a better chance of seeing history in a less biased light. Primary sources allow you to see the biases and thoughts of the people of the time, which you can then put into context for yourself. One person's hero, after all, IS another's villain. There are a lot of resources out there for this approach; Jackdaw packs come to mind as an example.

 

Looking at personal family history can also help shed some light on things. A timeline of U.S. history, including a timeline of family history and events, can be one way of doing this; geneological research and interviewing family elders can be an important part of learning about history. For me, the Great Depression always stuck after talking to my (reasonably affluent businessman) grandfather about why he always sucked the marrow out of chicken bones, and seeing another granfather's WWII pictures of the devastation on occupied Okinawa, and the pictures he took of the mushroom cloud over Nagasaki (he was a Navy photographer and rode on an observation plane), gave me a better clue of what that part of that war meant than I'd ever have gotten from a textbook.

 

Most good museums nowadays also take the approach of presenting primary source accounts along with artifacts, etc., and are worth checking out as resources.

[Angel]

We are using MFW Adventures. I have learned quite a few things already about Columbus that I didn't know beforehand, especially a little more into the "why" behind his exploration and a lot more about after he found America. I cannot remember if what I read came from the books scheduled into the daily reading of MFW or the Book Basket readings. I think it was a combination of both. I am unsure if that is still "the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth." ;) There is so much bias either way these days it makes it hard to tell. But I am feeling like they are giving a little more of an all around picture.

[lovemykids]

From what I remember, Core Knowledge presents US History in an honest, factual way. It needs to be supplemented with other books to flesh it out though. You could add various literature for a well rounded study.

[Donna A.]

We are using MFW Adventures. I have learned quite a few things already about Columbus that I didn't know beforehand, especially a little more into the "why" behind his exploration and a lot more about after he found America. I cannot remember if what I read came from the books scheduled into the daily reading of MFW or the Book Basket readings. I think it was a combination of both. I am unsure if that is still "the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth." ;) There is so much bias either way these days it makes it hard to tell. But I am feeling like they are giving a little more of an all around picture.

 

:iagree: We use MFW, and we learned that Columbus wasn't perfect. ;) As Angel said, I don't remember if it came from the scheduled readings or from book basket, but this is an example of how MFW provides a lot more "meat" via book basket that one doesn't initially see on the website. There's a lot of variety in that book basket list, and because MFW uses both secular and Christian resources, you're going to see contrasting viewpoints. YOU pick and choose from the many titles that are in book basket. (Every title -- book and video -- has been read and previewed by the author, so she's included notes next to each one to help you decide which ones to get.)

 

While MFW is an unabashadly Christian curriculum provider, and Marie provides good teacher notes, it leaves a lot of room for YOU to be your child's teacher and have a lot of good discussion time. :001_smile: (Hhmm, I just got through telling the same thing to someone in another thread! :lol: )

[Suzanne115]

We're using Beautiful Feet's Early American History and we learned good and bad things about Columbus.

[MIch elle]

Howard Zinn tells a different story of the U.S. in his book A People's History of the U.S.

[stripe]

I think many things historical, especially about the interactions between groups of people where one ended up taking over the land/power, tend to be hard to be neutral about. I'd very much want to know about good resources, though. I am following this thread with great interest.

 

BTW There is a young person's version of Zinn's book. But it's more for middle school level than lower elementary, and I noticed that the OP's children are quite young.

 

If you're interested in a book attempting to be about Native Americans, including their own history in itself instead of just how it related to European explorations, you might be interested in Before Columbus: The Americas of 1491 by Charles C. Mann; this is a young person's version of "1491." But it also is a fairly long, detailed book, likely too advanced for a 6 year old. The People Shall Continue by Simon Ortiz and Sharol Graves is a much shorter book, but it definitely has a perspective. And it's out of print.

[Chris in VA]

Did you get a chance to see the PBS series on Native Americans that aired sometime in August or Sept? It was very, very good. Might be a nice resource for you.

[buddhabelly]

I put together our own history curriculum which focuses on American history (mostly Northern, but some South American) from the perspective of native americans and other economically or socially disadvantaged populations. I got great ideas from "Keepers of the Earth" by Caduto and Bruchac and also "Rethinking Columbus: The Next 500 Years." http://www.rethinkingschools.org/publication/columbus/columbus.shtml

 

I don't have time right now, but let me know if you want my reading list. It comprises books by Tlingits, Inuits, Choctaw, Cree, Navajo, and many more native americans. I tried to keep it to books approved by that website that I can't think of the name right now. Okay, here it is: http://www.oyate.org/

 

"Rethinking Columbus" simply uses portions of Columbus' own diary to show how cruel he was. Can't get much more truthful than that. And remember that he was arrested and imprisoned by the Spanish government because of the tyrannical way that he governed Hispaniola. That is mostly overlooked in U.S. History books.

 

Julie

Edited October 23, 2009 by buddhabelly
Name of website that helps choose native american lit

[Monkey Island Academy]

delete

Edited October 23, 2009 by Monkey Island Academy

[crunchycons]

I highly reccomend Richard Maybury books to teach your upper elementary thru high school students (not exactly sure on the age but they are written to a "nephew" from Uncle Eric).

 

This is not the perspective you were taught in public school and they are excellent!! Check them out. We own most of them but I am planning on contacting our local public library to order them as the list of people wanting to borrow ours is a long one!

 

The author was interviewed by CBD about how pro-homeschooling the author is - a great quick read if you are unfamiliar with Richard Maybury.

 

http://www.christianbook.com/Christian/Books/cms_content?page=2012492&sp=102656&event=1016INT

 

a list of all his books is on the following link.

 

http://www.bluestockingpress.com/uncle-eric-books.htm

[MerryAtHope]

I thought Sonlight did a pretty good job of showing the good and bad of both sides (and Columbus did not come out as the hero--when we read Pedro's Journal, the stuff about Columbus made me sick. Sure was eye-opening compared to what I was taught in school!). Sonlight also includes quite a few Indian stories that I thought were well-written and interesting. Scott O'Dell's books are good. But keep in mind that I'm not looking at it from your perspective and might miss things that would be triggers for you. I remember awhile back that there was a site that had books on it that Native Americans objected to (or it might have been a specific tribe--I can't remember for certain now), and SL did have a couple of titles on that list too. I think Courage of Sarah Noble, and the Matchlock Gun if I remember correctly.

 

Merry :-)

[farmwife]

What a great question!!!

 

I have to say that we are doing MFW adventures and it has really been eye opening to say the least.

 

My husband and I both have some Native American ancestry (so that's something close to my heart!). Honestly I have never felt as much empathy for Native Americans as I do now, after reading some of the selections MFW has put into the Adventures program.

 

The first few read alouds I have read are:

Squanto, Friend of the Pilgrims (this totally made me cry and I never realized the trials that Squanto went through)

The Courage of Sarah Noble (again another cry fest, I just LOVE the relationship that Sarah develops with Big John)

North American Indians (a very detailed picture book briefly describing many of the tribes across the US, my kids loved peering at the pictures long after we were done reading it!)

Sign of the Beaver (our current book basket selection, some more tears, the respect that Matt develops for Attean is just amazing)

 

We also read another book called Pocahontas and Her World which gave us really inside perspective on her life but I just added that into the Unit on Pocahontas.

 

I highly recommend MFW Adventures!!! I think your husband would love to read some of these stories too!

 

Some other add ons I have are:

History Pockets: Native Americans

Dover North American Indian Designs stained glass coloring book (A MUST have!) It is so cool!

[LadyAberlin]

Well Winter promise has a whole Native american emphasis package in their American history. I haven't used it, so I can't say what perspective it comes from.

[Time4tea]

 

BTW There is a young person's version of Zinn's book. But it's more for middle school level than lower elementary, and I noticed that the OP's children are quite young.

 

 

 

I would be interested in knowing the title of this book. I went looking on Amazon, but he's written so many books!

 

Thanks, ~tea~

[stripe]

Originally Posted by stripe

 

BTW There is a young person's version of Zinn's book. But it's more for middle school level than lower elementary, and I noticed that the OP's children are quite young.

Originally Posted by Time4tea

I would be interested in knowing the title of this book. I went looking on Amazon, but he's written so many books!

 

Thanks, ~tea~

A Young People's History of the United States (Enhanced Omnibus Edition) by Rebecca Stefoff and Howard Zinn (Paperback, one volume that's "new, revised, and updated" for 2009)

 

OR

 

A Young People's History of the United States, Vol. 1: Columbus to the Spanish-American War by Rebecca Stefoff and Howard Zinn

PLUS

A Young People's History of the United States: Class Struggle to the War On Terror (Volume 2) by Rebecca Stefoff and Howard Zinn

both are hardcover from 2007

Edited October 23, 2009 by stripe

[Devotional Soul]

You might want to check out Making of America: History of United States by Robert D. Johnston. Your library may have it.

 

When I was reading through rainbow resource's American history books, this book caught my eye because the reviewer's description said this:

 

"I would like to note, however, that like many other secular history books, this one tends to treat the beliefs of the Puritans as equal to the beliefs of the Native Americans, and seems to advocate the belief that because the "white man" believed that he was superior in race and religion, that it was all right to slaughter innocent Native Americans and mistreat slaves, servants, and immigrants of different races."

 

Then I checked it out on amazon, and reviewers were complaining that this book says that Columbus committed genocide. They quote the book to say this:

 

"Many historians argue that Columbus, along with many settlers over the three centuries that followed his arrival, committed genocide. When the Europeans arrived, the population of America was about 70 million people. Over the next four centuries, that figure fell by more than 90 percent. Millions of Indians died in what many scholars consider the greatest human disaster in all history."

 

http://rainbowresource.com/product/Making+of+America%3AHistory+of+United+States/030160/1256340397-1232722

http://www.amazon.com/Making-America-Robert-D-Johnston/dp/0792269446

Edited October 23, 2009 by Devotional Soul

[Georgia]

Oyate.org has lots of book reviews, and sales. This is not curriculum, but books *by* Native Americans for kids (also teens and adults), often written with Native American children in mind as audience. (We're using History of US by Hakim, which addresses bias in history up front. It is more suitable for middle school.) I also second A Young People's History of the US by Zinn, but that also is for around late elem. or middle school, imo.

[calandalsmom]

What a great question!!!

 

I have to say that we are doing MFW adventures and it has really been eye opening to say the least.

 

My husband and I both have some Native American ancestry (so that's something close to my heart!). Honestly I have never felt as much empathy for Native Americans as I do now, after reading some of the selections MFW has put into the Adventures program.

 

The first few read alouds I have read are:

Squanto, Friend of the Pilgrims (this totally made me cry and I never realized the trials that Squanto went through)

The Courage of Sarah Noble (again another cry fest, I just LOVE the relationship that Sarah develops with Big John)

North American Indians (a very detailed picture book briefly describing many of the tribes across the US, my kids loved peering at the pictures long after we were done reading it!)

Sign of the Beaver (our current book basket selection, some more tears, the respect that Matt develops for Attean is just amazing)

 

 

 

These are also included in Sonlight's core 3.

 

 

Its interesting to note that Oyate has nothing good to say about most of those books.:001_huh: Personally I can see both sides.

[shinyhappypeople]

Wow, thanks so much for all the helpful information. I just wanted to point out that stories like "The Matchlock Gun" don't necessarily bother me. Books like that reflect the perceptions of real people during that time period, and I think it's important to understand and explore that perspective. I want my girls to eventually be able to explore WHY people felt the way they did about Native Americans. But, I also want to balance it with accounts from other points of view, including the Native American view, to give my girls a (hopefully) global understanding of issues. I also have a real problem with political correctness that demands that we portray one group (blacks, women, Indians, gays) as overwhelmingly positive while demonizing another group (white men). It's dehumanizing to everyone and, frankly, insults my intelligence. People are people -- good, bad, selfish, kind -- regardless of race, culture or gender.

 

What's ironic is that my husband is far, far less concerned about this stuff than I am, even though this directly affected fully half of his family tree. Go figure...

[shinyhappypeople]

I put together our own history curriculum which focuses on American history (mostly Northern, but some South American) from the perspective of native americans and other economically or socially disadvantaged populations. I got great ideas from "Keepers of the Earth" by Caduto and Bruchac and also "Rethinking Columbus: The Next 500 Years." http://www.rethinkingschools.org/publication/columbus/columbus.shtml

 

I don't have time right now, but let me know if you want my reading list. It comprises books by Tlingits, Inuits, Choctaw, Cree, Navajo, and many more native americans. I tried to keep it to books approved by that website that I can't think of the name right now. Okay, here it is: http://www.oyate.org/

 

"Rethinking Columbus" simply uses portions of Columbus' own diary to show how cruel he was. Can't get much more truthful than that. And remember that he was arrested and imprisoned by the Spanish government because of the tyrannical way that he governed Hispaniola. That is mostly overlooked in U.S. History books.

 

Julie

 

I would LOVE to see your reading list. Thanks :) I know what you mean about Colombus. He wasn't ashamed of or confused about what he was doing and his own writings demonstrate his lack of respect for human life. HEY! I have an idea! Let's give him a freakin HOLIDAY! :angry:

[Lovedtodeath]

I have heard that WP is very balanced if you add in the readers. Without the readers it is not as balanced, but I don't remember which way it swings.

[Saille]

Oyate.org has lots of book reviews, and sales. This is not curriculum, but books *by* Native Americans for kids (also teens and adults), often written with Native American children in mind as audience. (We're using History of US by Hakim, which addresses bias in history up front. It is more suitable for middle school.) I also second A Young People's History of the US by Zinn, but that also is for around late elem. or middle school, imo.

 

They also have a list of books with stereotyped characters, to avoid or deconstruct. I think Sarah Noble was on there.

[Dinsfamily]

Wow, thanks so much for all the helpful information. I just wanted to point out that stories like "The Matchlock Gun" don't necessarily bother me. Books like that reflect the perceptions of real people during that time period, and I think it's important to understand and explore that perspective. I want my girls to eventually be able to explore WHY people felt the way they did about Native Americans. But, I also want to balance it with accounts from other points of view, including the Native American view, to give my girls a (hopefully) global understanding of issues. I also have a real problem with political correctness that demands that we portray one group (blacks, women, Indians, gays) as overwhelmingly positive while demonizing another group (white men). It's dehumanizing to everyone and, frankly, insults my intelligence. People are people -- good, bad, selfish, kind -- regardless of race, culture or gender.

 

What's ironic is that my husband is far, far less concerned about this stuff than I am, even though this directly affected fully half of his family tree. Go figure...

 

I really like how you explained what you're looking for in this paragraph. That's an ideal I'd like to shoot for as well. I'd be interesting in hearing what you end up using and what materials you especially find helpful in teaching your dc.

[Nan in Mass]

I was going to suggest reading Columbus's log. TWTM recommends a version suitable for elementary/middle school. He condemns himself very nicely in it. For high school, we used Zinn.

-Nan

[dhudson]

We are in the last year of MFW's cycle and have done all the previous years, including ADV. The only thing we haven't done is high school and I have been very impressed with the honesty in the choice of books and in the TM. We have several times have had the opportunity to discuss the treatment of different people groups and how both the gov't and the settlers themselves handled the conflicts.

[Hillary in KS]

I don't know that it's necessarily the *truth,* but I think pretty much any history textbook used in the public schools today will teach history from the perspective that you're looking for.

 

Call your local schools and see what they're using.

[EmilyK]

As adult reading, I really enjoyed Slaves in the Family, by Edward Ball, which gave me insight into how people thought pre-Enlightenment. There is discussion of Native peoples, who were kidnapped and added to the slave community. His history of his family, and the times they lived, is interwoven with modern day connections he is able to make with relatives of his, and descendants of the slaves his family owned. Because his family kept meticulous records, it is very interesting from a genealogical perspective too.

[Sasha]

Howard Zinn tells a different story of the U.S. in his book A People's History of the U.S.

 

This is what we use (DD has the children's version).

[Sasha]

I don't know that it's necessarily the *truth,* but I think pretty much any history textbook used in the public schools today will teach history from the perspective that you're looking for.

 

Call your local schools and see what they're using.

 

In the local public schools Columbus is presented as a hero and they still imply that Native Americans (in Indiana) lived in teepees.

 

YMMV, of course.

[Julie in MN]

In the local public schools Columbus is presented as a hero and they still imply that Native Americans (in Indiana) lived in teepees.

 

YMMV, of course.

 

Not in Minnesota.

 

In Minnesota right now, even if all 4 of the other days are off of school during the week of Columbus Day, the kids will still attend public school on that Monday. They'd rather give up anything than acknowledge Columbus's exploration whatsoever.

 

Teepees were prevalent among the Dakota in MN, and are proudly displayed at N.A. events here, so I guess that's a nonissue for us Minnesotans.

 

It must depend on where you live, but our experience is more like Hillary's.

[stripe]

History textbooks do tend to dwell on things like, say, war. They may try to incorporate some different perspectives, but how much do we really read about women, or children? African Americans beside slavery and civil rights? Native Americans in the last 50 years? There is a selection, and it does present some perspective, even if only by omission.

[radiobrain]

The Brown Paper School has a pretty good series about US history, with specific Native American books.

 

I feel that it doesn't matter what the "textbook' says, as if you don't exactly agree you can explain that you don't and why you don't. I am forever pointing out my disagreement with books. I feel that sometimes, depending on when they were written they are either way to PC or not sensitive enough to the other side. I think that the most important thing to teach in history is to have a critical eye, remember that it is the victor who writes the story and that things in the past are NOT comparable to today. I am always trying to impress on my boys how hard life was, and how in some countries today it is just as hard...

 

it is up to you to use whatever book you have as a tool to explain the why, what and how of it all. If you want to sugar coat the Native americans, that is your choice... I choose to point out how the different tribes were constantly fighting, like any other "type" of people all over the world through history, and they weren't always innocent.. however they were taken advantage of by both the "white men" and each other. See, I dislike "revisionist" history. Columbus was not "evil" he was an explorer. If it wasn't him, it would've been someone else.

 

I find it hard to ever find the perfect book, in any subject... just try to do your best and take the time to impress on your kids, that books aren't ALWAYS right....

[shinyhappypeople]

 

If you want to sugar coat the Native americans, that is your choice...

 

What on earth gave you the idea that I want to "sugarcoat" the Native Americans? Repeating myself from an earlier post:

 

"I just wanted to point out that stories like "The Matchlock Gun" don't necessarily bother me. Books like that reflect the perceptions of real people during that time period, and I think it's important to understand and explore that perspective. I want my girls to eventually be able to explore WHY people felt the way they did about Native Americans. But, I also want to balance it with accounts from other points of view, including the Native American view, to give my girls a (hopefully) global understanding of issues. I also have a real problem with political correctness that demands that we portray one group (blacks, women, Indians, gays) as overwhelmingly positive while demonizing another group (white men). It's dehumanizing to everyone and, frankly, insults my intelligence. People are people -- good, bad, selfish, kind -- regardless of race, culture or gender."

 

See, I dislike "revisionist" history.

 

And I do? Oh, please. My point is that I'm trying to achieve the opposite. What schools have traditionally taught about Columbus is absolutely revisionist history.

 

Columbus was not "evil" he was an explorer. If it wasn't him, it would've been someone else.

 

Columbus was surely a product of his times, but that doesn't make it okay. I agree, if it hadn't been him, it may well have been someone else. But that doesn't make it right! Anyone who is instrumental in the enslavement and murder of thousands of people is not a good guy and it's more than a little sick that we (USians) honor him with a holiday. His actions were absolutely evil.

[charlotteb]

Something that you and your husband may enjoy is a DVD series called "Into the West". I would not recommend it for kids though- too much violence. But it shows the American Expanision thru the eyes of two families- one Lakota and one caucasian. It is very good in my opinion! Another good book to look at is "Lies my Teacher Told Me". Sorry I can't remember the author. It tells the truth about many of the legendary stories we hear in history. Again, it is geared for adults though. Maybe you and dh can use them yourselves and then discuss them with the kids on their level afterwards.

[Matryoshka]

it is up to you to use whatever book you have as a tool to explain the why, what and how of it all. If you want to sugar coat the Native americans, that is your choice... I choose to point out how the different tribes were constantly fighting, like any other "type" of people all over the world through history, and they weren't always innocent..

 

Yes, the tribes fought amongst each other, like any other humans. But different tribes had very different cultures and values from each other anc can't be painted with a broad brush.

 

There probably were some tribes that if they had had the advanced weaponry the European invaders had would have subjugated the other tribes - in the cases of the Aztecs and Inca, they did (and it's why the Europeans got help from natives of other tribes overthrowing them). But there were lots of tribes that had much more peaceful values, had more democratic forms of governance, and many that respected women equally to men. We studied a variety of different tribes in depth to really see these differences, and see them as complete people and cultures, not just "plains Indians lived in tipis and woodland Indians in wigwams".

 

See, I dislike "revisionist" history. Columbus was not "evil" he was an explorer. If it wasn't him, it would've been someone else.

 

Columbus was not an explorer, he was a businessman. He wanted to find a route to the riches of India that didn't follow now treacherous Silk Road after the break-down of much of the governments in the lands it passed through after the Black Death swept through the area. He was looking for money, not looking to explore new lands. He did not get funding for his ventures from Ferdiand and Isabella because he wanted to "explore". He wanted to find known lands with known riches. He was very frustrated in not finding any, which is what led him to the slave trade. He annhilated the local people trying to wrest from them where the gold was hiding.

 

I don't agree that any other European would have done the same. Maybe any other European looking for gold. But maybe not. Even some of Columbus' men wrote scathing indictments of his behavior and practices - I do not buy at all that anyone would have acted as he did.

 

In northern American history, I made sure to point out the differences in behavior between people like the Pilgrims, who pretty much left the Indians to do as they pleased, and the Puritans, who either converted or killed them. There was Roger Williams who left Massachusetts Bay Colony to found Rhode Island and bought the land from the Indians rather than assuming it was his. Similarly, William Penn learned the Leni Lenape language and made a point to treat the natives as fairly as possible, buying and negotiating land purchases and generally treating them as human beings. Sadly, his sons were very different people.

 

Then there's Andrew Jackson, who even though a Cherokee chief saved his life while fighting alongside him in the war of 1812, later flagrantly ignored a supreme court decision saying that the Cherokee could not be ousted from their land, forced them from their houses at gunpoint and forced them to walk on foot to Oklahoma. That isn't revisionist. It's what happened.

 

There were European-Americans who treated the Indians as fellow humans worthy of respect, and there were others who treated them as sub-humans to be "gotten out of the way" by pretty much any means possible, even in those earlier times. I will not give a pass to the former, as there were lots of dissenting voices even then that they chose to ignore.

 

To say Columbus was an explorer is revisionist. He wasn't one.

[stripe]

I feel that it doesn't matter what the "textbook' says, as if you don't exactly agree you can explain that you don't and why you don't.

Sure, but there is an authority to reading something in a book, or how it's presented when one is young, that tends to subtly influence one's thought. Such as the use of the term "discover." I found some old history book that said something like, most of inner Africa has not been explored -- well, YES IT HAD, just not by Europeans! Given that it was inhabited, rather than, say, Antarctica, it is quite misleading to use terms like that.

 

I didn't know that being an "explorer" gave one the right to do whatever one wants. (Is the same true for, say, businessmen? Or ministers? Or teachers?)

[radiobrain]

The point I was trying to make earlier, when I was without much coffee, and very tired... was lost. Plus, I tend to get posts mixed up with each other... :tongue_smilie:

 

Sorry if I angered you guys... not my intention, I am just irritated by certain things that I see going on in the teaching of history right now.... what *I* consider revisionist and someone else might, are probably different.

 

I was only trying to say that if you need to use books that have questionable references, one sided views of people or historical figures, or not meaty enough~ you must discuss WHY THAT IS with your kids. I have noticed that depending on when a book is written has a lot to do with it's POV. Sometimes it is way too far in the other direction or the other. It is also this way with "documentaries" . I try to give my kids a lot of different sources to choose from, and therefore formulate a more well rounded opinion for themselves.

 

I think there are several really excellent resources on Native American History, however I do think it is lacking in the present day coverage.

 

500 Nations is a documentary series that seemed quite good. I requested my library purchase it, they ended up buying 5 copies (of a several disc set). Again, the brown paper school has a wonderful set of books... here is the relevant one... http://www.amazon.com/USKids-History-American-Indians-School/dp/0316222089/ref=pd_sim_b_3

 

As far as the Columbus businessman/explorer... fine. I only meant that SOMEONE was going to find the N. American Continent, proper. It is not like it was a big secret. Whether an explorer or businessman, was not my point. (Besides, since I was a kid I was always confused because I knew all about Leif Eriksson.) I think I was irritated by the news stories I read about Columbus Day this year.

 

Sorry for coming across as more of a Dumba** that I actually am. :D

[radiobrain]

Sure, but there is an authority to reading something in a book, or how it's presented when one is young, that tends to subtly influence one's thought. Such as the use of the term "discover." I found some old history book that said something like, most of inner Africa has not been explored -- well, YES IT HAD, just not by Europeans! Given that it was inhabited, rather than, say, Antarctica, it is quite misleading to use terms like that.

 

 

 

I disagree. I think it is important to explain to kids that "just because it is in a book, does NOT mean that it is right".

 

I would use the example you used to say things like... see, here is an example of where the book has a flaw, etc etc, WHY do you think the author might say this sort of thing? What do you think? I know that this happened... would you like to try to find a different book to explain the things that this author didn't know or didn't think was important?

 

Again, lay off me on the Columbus stuff, ok? I have not gotten to the "Age of Exploration' yet in our history studies, so I am going on my 1982 remembering of it. If I recall, 6th grade was a horrible year for me, so... please. I will now shut my trap an refrain from posting/reading for a while.

[Julie in MN]

Sure, but there is an authority to reading something in a book, or how it's presented when one is young, that tends to subtly influence one's thought. Such as the use of the term "discover." I found some old history book that said something like, most of inner Africa has not been explored -- well, YES IT HAD, just not by Europeans! Given that it was inhabited, rather than, say, Antarctica, it is quite misleading to use terms like that.

 

I didn't know that being an "explorer" gave one the right to do whatever one wants. (Is the same true for, say, businessmen? Or ministers? Or teachers?)

 

As mentioned, here in MN I'm surrounded by folks who are worried as you are. However, here's my problem with it --

 

1. Explorers means that the larger world was all becoming aware of these areas. Deeper Africa didn't know about South America, and vice versa. Obviously *everyone* knew about their own area, but getting a handle on the set-up of the whole world was the big thing going on during the "Age of Exploration." And that knowledge generally affected everyone, not just Europeans.

 

2. Columbus Day is a national holiday because we are celebrating the beginning of our country. I suppose we could have chosen Amerigo or some other guy, but Columbus seemed like the first to connect the Americas to the whole world. Romans celebrated Romulus and Remus not because they were good guys, or because they never took land away from anyone, but because it was the start of their nation -- hence national figures. Acknowledging a historical event is not the same as worship, and it's not always 100% factual. And at a child's level, no, we don't normally tell them every bad side to everything -- we just celebrate simplistically & move on. (Or if you live in Minnesota, you just don't celebrate at all.)

 

3. Tribes existed around the world throughout history. People captured slaves and grabbed loot. Even the native tribes who were being attacked might get on board and sell their own peoples in order to gain wealth. These things still happen around the world. I still don't understand why Europeans or whites are singled out as the bad guys. Of course, "bad" means different things in different eras and sometimes could be more horrible than others (Aztec sacrifices or African-American slave ships come to mind), but Columbus certainly was part of a worldwide problem.

 

4. I actually think it's condescending to teach extensively about the Native American tribal life. It somehow makes them sound stuck in tribal society, as if they were still at the level of Germanic tribes we came from, and they hadn't progressed beyond that. My older kids were taught that way & were astounded to find that Native Americans still exist! And they can wear suits! Surely I agree that there were some sweet-sounding tribal practices, but no one's perfect. And often those smallish communities quickly became the worst places to live, because they were so easily attacked by the very worst people their worlds had to offer -- whether in India or Greece or South America.

 

5. As a Christian, I believe we are all sinful, so I constantly remind my children of that as we learn the human story. Our motives are mixed, as were Columbus's. His lifelong dream of finding a new trade route had several motivations, and he threw different thoughts out at his sponsors right and left. They ranged from riches to conversion. Who knows whether one was more of a motivator than another -- Columbus probably wanted to say whatever he thought Ferdinand & Isabella wanted to hear.

 

6. There was a "holy war" going on around the Mediterranean at that time in history, and conversion itself has mixed motivations. On the one hand, it seems to almost become synonymous with colonization, but at the same time inherently includes some genuine concern for other people. As you mention, many American missionaries learned whole new languages; they even developed the first written languages for tribes. This kind of life's work indicates real dedication to the preservation and uplifting of the other people group, not to their destruction. Explorers also brought iron tools to native tribes and why should we think they wouldn't be overjoyed to find their lives suddenly easier? There are always mixed motives on both sides.

 

 

Well, sorry so long. And probably I didn't say everything well. <sigh>

 

 

Maybe you should skip the text & read a good story that honors native lifestyles, if that's what you want to get at. I recently enjoyed Jane Gibbs: Little Bird That Was Caught, and went on to read the journals of missionary Gideon Pond and artist Seth Eastman -- both of whom of course had European points of view, but were very honest about the Dakota people they observed & knew.

Edited November 2, 2009 by Julie in MN

[Donna A.]

Well, sorry so long. And probably I didn't say everything well. <sigh>

 

 

I think you said it VERY well, Julie. ;)

[Matryoshka]

4. I actually think it's condescending to teach extensively about the Native American tribal life. It somehow makes them sound stuck in tribal society, as if they were still at the level of Germanic tribes we came from, and they hadn't progressed beyond that. My older kids were taught that way & were astounded to find that Native Americans still exist! And they can wear suits!

 

I may agree that it could be condescending to teach exclusively about Native American tribal life, but I quite disagree that it's in any way condescending to teach about it extensively - quite the contrary.

 

The former is done often in schools - helicopter history - let's learn about Native Americans, and make a diorama of each "type". It's rarely extensive, and largely superficial, and then the helicopter moves on to learn about George Washington and Abraham Lincoln (as if they had something in common besides an official position and the month of their birth).

 

When we learned extensively about various tribes, it was in the context of a chronological history of the Americas, and we were studing pre-Columbian times. We have continued studying Native Americans through our years of this study, most recently learning about the Navajo Code Talkers in WWII. We've also attended a few pow wows and Indian reservations for a more contemporary view.

 

Why would it be any more condescending to study how Native Americans lived before 1600 than it would be to study Egyptian life in 2000BC? Or does that mean that our kids would then be doomed to think modern Egyptians build pyramids and make mummies?

[Julie in MN]

Why would it be any more condescending to study how Native Americans lived before 1600 than it would be to study Egyptian life in 2000BC? Or does that mean that our kids would then be doomed to think modern Egyptians build pyramids and make mummies?

 

Well, in my mind, studying Egypt 2000BC would be similar to studying the Aztecs of 1400. It is the "height of civilization" in an area along the timeline of human history. It's a group that had wide-ranging influence, written records, advanced tools, and so forth. It isn't a matter of "better" (and may well be "worse," since in order to achieve such accomplishments, there usually has to be a "leisure class" that doesn't need to grow its own food, and has time to get in trouble, too!).

 

It was Germanic tribes that I compared to Native American tribes because they seem more similar. And yes, some folks spend a year studying Germanic tribes and worship and mythology and so forth. So I guess it's a value-judgment. But if I didn't spend that kind of time on educating my own children in their own tribal history, I would think they would make unconscious assumptions if I spent more time on another group's.

 

I may agree that it could be condescending to teach exclusively about Native American tribal life,

 

So I guess I agree on that.

 

JMHO,

Julie

Edited November 3, 2009 by Julie in MN

[stripe]

1. Explorers means that the larger world was all becoming aware of these areas. Deeper Africa didn't know about South America, and vice versa. Obviously *everyone* knew about their own area, but getting a handle on the set-up of the whole world was the big thing going on during the "Age of Exploration." And that knowledge generally affected everyone, not just Europeans.

My point is how it's phrased. Saying a place "had not been explored" implies there were no human inhabitants, not that those living there hadn't mingled with others. Which also suggests that whoever was living there. The idea of "uninhabited" places with people considered sub-human who are promptly subjugated is troublesome, to say the least.

 

I have no particular comments about Columbus because he's not my major concern; that was other people.

 

And at a child's level, no, we don't normally tell them every bad side to everything -- we just celebrate simplistically & move on.

Is it really mandatory to celebrate Columbus Day? Could it also be called commemoration, remembrance, etc.? Not everyone on this board is an American, after all!

 

3. Tribes existed around the world throughout history.

I don't understand the significance of the word "tribe" as opposed to, say, ethnic group.

 

I still don't understand why Europeans or whites are singled out as the bad guys.

Scale, perhaps (at least 12 million people), plus geographic area affected, plus length of time (400+ years)? It's considered the greatest human migration of all time, after all.

 

4. I actually think it's condescending to teach extensively about the Native American tribal life. It somehow makes them sound stuck in tribal society, as if they were still at the level of Germanic tribes we came from, and they hadn't progressed beyond that.

Again, I guess I have a different connotation for the word "tribe," but I do agree that no group of people still living should be taught as if they are merely a historical relic.

 

As you mention, many American missionaries learned whole new languages; they even developed the first written languages for tribes. This kind of life's work indicates real dedication to the preservation and uplifting of the other people group, not to their destruction. Explorers also brought iron tools to native tribes and why should we think they wouldn't be overjoyed to find their lives suddenly easier? There are always mixed motives on both sides.

Some of us on this board are from or know people who are from communities that were visited / changed by explorers or missionaries, and have a clear answer to this. Some of these "gifts" were mixed indeed. (Incidentally, Wangari Maathai's The Challenge for Africa covers some important issues relating to this.) When one is homeschooling from this perspective, one may not be so quick to jump on the "rah! rah! colonialism! tame the savages!" bandwagon.

[Julie in MN]

My point is how it's phrased. Saying a place "had not been explored" implies there were no human inhabitants, not that those living there hadn't mingled with others. Which also suggests that whoever was living there. The idea of "uninhabited" places with people considered sub-human who are promptly subjugated is troublesome, to say the least.

 

Yes, the phrasing is unfortunate. But I don't think there's bad will behind it. Let's just change it!

 

Is it really mandatory to celebrate Columbus Day? Could it also be called commemoration, remembrance, etc.? Not everyone on this board is an American, after all!

 

Columbus Day is an American Federal Holiday, so there it is. I believe there are similar holidays in several other countries in the Americas. But I doubt anyone is required to celebrate it in the least. I'm sure most nationalities have holidays? Maybe I wouldn't agree with all of them, but I'd enjoy experiencing their history and culture, I'm sure.

 

I don't understand the significance of the word "tribe" as opposed to, say, ethnic group.

 

I don't know about other posts, but I was referring to the period of time in a people's history when they lived in small bands with few luxuries. Well, that definition probably requires more thought on my part. But my family, for instance, can probably be traced back to Germanic and Celtic tribal groups in Europe. Those groups had probably conquered migrant groups of people and settled into small communities. Later, they were conquered by the Roman Empire. I hold no grudges :)

 

Scale, perhaps (at least 12 million people), plus geographic area affected, plus length of time (400+ years)? It's considered the greatest human migration of all time, after all.

 

If this is an explanation regarding my question, "I still don't understand why Europeans or whites are singled out as the bad guys," I'm still not convinced. 12 million is not a world record for people adversely affected by powerful decisions. We just read today about 200,000 unarmed Chinese civilians killed by Japanese soldiers within weeks. If you factor in increasing populations over time, 12 mil. probably isn't even a historically large group.

 

As far as length of time (400+ years), I'm totally confused. When do you stop counting when, say, a certain group of Africans took over another group of Africans? Surely many other take-overs have lasted more than 400 measly years?

 

Again, I guess I have a different connotation for the word "tribe," but I do agree that no group of people still living should be taught as if they are merely a historical relic.

 

Agreeing here.

 

Some of us on this board are from or know people who are from communities that were visited / changed by explorers or missionaries, and have a clear answer to this. Some of these "gifts" were mixed indeed.

 

When one is homeschooling from this perspective, one may not be so quick to jump on the "rah! rah! colonialism! tame the savages!" bandwagon.

 

Hmmm... I didn't see that bandwagon on this thread. And as I've repeatedly mentioned, one would be hard pressed to find someone in Minnesota who would do anything but spit on Columbus, or on anyone who acknowledges this Federal holiday, so you would be happy with the rah rah group here. In the area I live, the old bandwagon that you describe left at least 40 years ago, during the time of the sit-ins I attended in elementary school or possibly earlier. In my area, *you* would be a card-carrying member of the dominant majority opinion, so rest easy.

 

I would like to say, however, that just because I believe my children can learn historical stories and explore historical viewpoints without singling out our own race for special condemnation doesn't mean I'm ignorant, nor am I sheltered. I'm old enough to have experienced a wide range of humanity, from a friend who spent his childhood imprisoned by missionaries in Canada, to a close friend whose parents were trapped and tortured in post-slavery sharecropping; I also work closely with Asian and African immigrants in my current job. In the past, I've started a diversity committee in my community and taught diversity, but that is simply no longer needed, at least where I live (unless it's needed to stick up for white Christians :tongue_smilie: ).

 

And by the way, many of the diverse people I know, including the 2 friends mentioned above, are in fact Christians, as they do not look at human actions to determine their Christianity. In fact, as Christians, we look on all humanity as joined together in the same story.

 

 

Well, thanks for the interesting conversation today. I enjoy hashing educational topics out on occasion, even if I don't win :glare:

Julie

Edited November 3, 2009 by Julie in MN

[stripe]

Yes, the phrasing is unfortunate. But I don't think there's bad will behind it. Let's just change it!

I disagree. I think there was a great deal of ill will behind it. Africans were not treated as people by most colonizers.

 

 

Columbus Day is an American Federal Holiday, so there it is. I believe there are similar holidays in several other countries in the Americas. But I doubt anyone is required to celebrate it in the least. I'm sure most nationalities have holidays? Maybe I wouldn't agree with all of them, but I'd enjoy experiencing their history and culture, I'm sure.

? But we have multiple "patriotic" holidays, including Thanksgiving, Presidents' Day, Labor Day, Memorial Day, Independence Day, so one can still be pro-US without having a "celebration" on Columbus Day. Right?

 

 

If this is an explanation regarding my question, "I still don't understand why Europeans or whites are singled out as the bad guys," I'm still not convinced. 12 million is not a world record for people adversely affected by powerful decisions. We just read today about 200,000 unarmed Chinese civilians killed by Japanese soldiers within weeks. If you factor in increasing populations over time, 12 mil. probably isn't even a historically large group.

? I don't get this, sorry. There were fewer people 400 years ago, so 12 million people today would be proportionally more, not to mention that Japanese soldiers haven't been on a 400 year reign of terror against China.

 

And no one should say that "whites" are bad because of what some countries did. We are talking about certain slave traders, state policies, and individuals, not an entire country, which included abolitionists.

 

As far as length of time (400+ years), I'm totally confused. When do you stop counting when, say, a certain group of Africans took over another group of Africans? Surely many other take-overs have lasted more than 400 measly years?

I've never heard of anything like that in Africa. And certainly not 12-20 million people being transported across the ocean, never to return.

 

Hmmm... I didn't see that bandwagon on this thread.

I was referring to what I've seen in old books, not on this thread.

 

In my area, *you* would be a card-carrying member of the dominant majority opinion, so rest easy.

? I would? Really? I highly doubt it. I don't think I've said what my opinion is, except that I'm uncomfortable with pro-slavery/pro-colonialist texts.

 

I've never set foot in Minnesota, so I wouldn't really feel comfortable analyzing the Minnesotan view on anything.

 

I would like to say, however, that just because I believe my children can learn historical stories and explore historical viewpoints without singling out our own race for special condemnation doesn't mean I'm ignorant, nor am I sheltered.

I never meant to imply that you are either racist or hateful, much less ignorant or sheltered.