We Are All Hindus Now?

[Lovedtodeath]

I had no idea JW's believed thusly. Very interesting information. Thanks.

I also posted a news article on another thread about Michael Jackson's Witness funeral (he had a Witness funeral because of family members, while not a practicing Witness himself) and how it was handled. It was written by a man who's mother is a Witness. You might be interested in that.

Thank you for this reply. This is more along the lines of my own belief. Whether Buddha is now in heaven or still awaiting heaven, I don't know. But that he would have the same chance as me, I definitely do believe. Of all God's attributes, that He is a just God, God's justice, not man's, is primary for me.

 

Janet

Well said Janet. I wish you all the best and will be praying for you.:grouphug:

[momto2Cs]

I look at all faith as paths up a mountain - they lead to the same peak, no matter the approach. Unless of course, your path only winds around and around the base, never going higher.

[Peek a Boo]

In the bolded part, you are speaking of God? That God's power and divine nature have always been evident? If so, I agree with that. So if the person who lived before Christ recognized God (one God) they would be saved? After Christ's death on the cross?...... Since Christianity and the New Testament didn't exist prior to the time of Christ, I don't see saying those two faiths are incompatible, in reference to Buddha, is applicable.

 

pretty much, yeah.

part of recognizing God is putting your entire faith IN God and his promises [Christ]. The Romans verse merely points out what always was-- it doesn't teach anything *new.*

 

but there are differing interpretations about Old Testament Salvation, so google that and read the various takes. ;)

[Peek a Boo]

This is how I interpreted the bolded part, but I asked Dirtroad herself for clarification. If I'm wrong I stand corrected.

 

ok.... that wasn't how I read it, but to each their own. :)

[Peela]

OK, you may be able to educate me here. Which parts of the Bible were actually written, and we have the original scrolls in whatever language, during or within a short period after, Jesus' life/death, by someone who actually knew him? I didnt think there were any but I'm no Bible scholar.

 

No one answered me in a clear way about this. Surely it is a very simple question with a straightforward answer? Or does faith in the Bible mean no one ever asks this simple question?

Abstract answers mean you give your power up to the scholars and trust. Fair enough. But someone should be able to say "the Book of such and such was written by such and such who was with Jesus".

I am pretty sure no book exists that was written by anyone in the same generation as Jesus, who was living while he was and who talks about him. They were all written long after he died by people who didnt actually know him. But I just wanted to find out if anyone could give me any specifics. Apparently not.

Im not trying to undermine anyone's faith. Its a fairly academic question and I am genuinely curious about it since my dh watched a documentary about it on Discovery Channel or History Channel or somesuch. He was very surprised himself at the information.

[Peek a Boo]

No one answered me in a clear way about this. Surely it is a very simple question with a straightforward answer? Or does faith in the Bible mean no one ever asks this simple question?

Abstract answers mean you give your power up to the scholars and trust. Fair enough. But someone should be able to say "the Book of such and such was written by such and such who was with Jesus".

I am pretty sure no book exists that was written by anyone in the same generation as Jesus, who was living while he was and who talks about him. They were all written long after he died by people who didnt actually know him. But I just wanted to find out if anyone could give me any specifics. Apparently not.

Im not trying to undermine anyone's faith. Its a fairly academic question and I am genuinely curious about it since my dh watched a documentary about it on Discovery Channel or History Channel or somesuch. He was very surprised himself at the information.

 

 

actually, several of the books WERE written by people who knew Jesus. We simply don't have the original copies.

 

eta: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Testament

 

To try to stay on topic for this thread, people advised you to research it a bit and offered additional help if you required it. I guess they wrongly assumed that you were capable of researching that simple question.

 

Abstract answers merely mean that we understand there is always some debate on some specific within the academic community -- if you search hard enough, you can always find an "expert" that is too happy to dismiss the Scriptures as full of error and/or wrong.

 

We don't "trust the scholars" ---we trust that God works through people to preserve His Word.

 

eta: Paul met Christ Himself on the Road to Damascus. But I do understand that many dismiss that also ;)

Edited August 17, 2009 by Peek a Boo

[Lovedtodeath]

No one answered me in a clear way about this. Surely it is a very simple question with a straightforward answer? Or does faith in the Bible mean no one ever asks this simple question?

Abstract answers mean you give your power up to the scholars and trust. Fair enough. But someone should be able to say "the Book of such and such was written by such and such who was with Jesus".

I am pretty sure no book exists that was written by anyone in the same generation as Jesus, who was living while he was and who talks about him. They were all written long after he died by people who didnt actually know him. But I just wanted to find out if anyone could give me any specifics. Apparently not.

Im not trying to undermine anyone's faith. Its a fairly academic question and I am genuinely curious about it since my dh watched a documentary about it on Discovery Channel or History Channel or somesuch. He was very surprised himself at the information.

Well, I could try to give a more concrete answer. Later. It will take some time to look it up and to type it out.

[Guest Ktsmom9]

PeekaBoo wrote:

Quote:

Originally Posted by sleepymommy

Can you be more specific as to which religions teach to kill, rape, etc? I cannot think of any. Just as it happens in Christianity, many people twist the scriptures of other religions around fanatically. Doesn't mean the religion itself teaches these things.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cannibalism

 

unfortunately, since many truly believe that those twisted ideas [justifying to kill, rape, etc] are ACCURATE, then yes, indeed, that religion does teach that. That goes for Christianity and Islam too. If indeed we can't judge which religion is "right" then we can't dismiss those teachings as merely fanatical twisting.

**************************************************************************

 

Hm... this brings me to one of the bizarre aspects of Christianity. "Holy Communion". I was raised in the Episcopalian church, taught all the religious dogma of that faith, and didn't realize how crazy it all was until I was "confirmed" as an adolescent, and permitted to participate in Communion.

 

The first time a priest murmured the words before me that "this is the body and blood of Christ", I gagged. The belief of many Christians that the wine and "host" become transmuted into the physical body and blood of Christ.... ain't that cannibalism folks?

 

When I questioned it, I was gently instructed about the mystical transmutation of the wine and bread... yadda, yadda, yadda.... still gross. Still cannibalism, by any other name.

[johnandtinagilbert]

No one answered me in a clear way about this. Surely it is a very simple question with a straightforward answer? Or does faith in the Bible mean no one ever asks this simple question?

Abstract answers mean you give your power up to the scholars and trust. Fair enough. But someone should be able to say "the Book of such and such was written by such and such who was with Jesus".

I am pretty sure no book exists that was written by anyone in the same generation as Jesus, who was living while he was and who talks about him. They were all written long after he died by people who didnt actually know him. But I just wanted to find out if anyone could give me any specifics. Apparently not.

Im not trying to undermine anyone's faith. Its a fairly academic question and I am genuinely curious about it since my dh watched a documentary about it on Discovery Channel or History Channel or somesuch. He was very surprised himself at the information.

I agree with Peek. I misunderstood. Somehow I thought you wanted to know about original documentation, which is what the link I gave you provided. If you pick up a bible, most have an explanation of the author before each chapter. There are absolutely books written by those who walked with Jesus, as well as those who converted after His death and interviewed eyewitnesses. I'd encourage you to tread lightly with info. from Discovery, The History Channel. Much of their info. is slanted and at many times, I have been able to pull out other resources that differ from their broadcasts. Maybe this will help you:

The Bible[/

is the Word of God. Christians believe that God inspired human beings to write the words that God wanted to be included in each of the books. So even though God is the authorof the Bible, humans did the writing. So who did God choose to do such an important job and who wrote which books?

 

 

 

1. Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Number and Deuteronomy - The first five books of the Bible were written by Moses. Moses was an Israelite who was raised as Egyptian royalty. His story is well known by people of all faiths.

2. Joshua - Joshua was written by Joshua, an aide to Moses who eventually took over leadership of the Israelites from Moses.

3. Judges - The authorship of some of the books of the Bible is unclear. It is thought that perhaps Samuel, a judge, wrote Judges.

4. Ruth - The author of this love story is unknown.

5. 1 Samuel - It is believed that the judge Samuel wrote most of this book. It may have been added to by the prophets Nathan and Gad.

6. 2 Samuel - The authorship of the majority of the book is unknown. There is some evidence that the prophets Nathan and Gad contributed.

7. 1 & 2 Kings - These books also have unknown authorship. Some believe the prophet Jeremiah or a group of prophets authored them.

8. 1 & 2 Chronicles, Ezra, and Nehemiah - According to Jewish tradition Ezra, who was a priest, a scribe and a Jewish leader, is the author.

9. Esther - Esther may have been written by Mordecai, one of the central figures in the book although it is not certain.

10. Job - This famous story was possibly written by Job himself although the authorship has never been confirmed.

11. Psalms -King David wrote 73 of the 150 poems in this book. Other authors include Solomon, Ethan and Moses. 51 of the Psalms are anonymous.

12. Proverbs, Ecclesiastes, and Song of Songs - These wisdom books were written by King Solomon, son of King David.

13. Isaiah - Isaiah was written by the prophet Isaiah.

14. Jeremiah and Lamentations - These books were written by the prophet Jeremiah.

15. Ezekiel, Daniel, Hosea, Joel, Amos, and Obadiah - These prophetic books were all named after the prophets who authored them.

16. Jonah - This story is attributed to the man who sat in the belly of the whale himself, Jonah.

17. Micah, Nahum, Habakkuk, Zephaniah, Haggai, Zechariah, and Malachi - The final books of the Old Testament were prophetic books and were named after the men who were their authors.

18. Mathew - This gospel was written by one of Jesus' disciples, Matthew.

19. Mark - This gospel was written by John Mark. He was not one of the disciples but he was an early follower of Jesus Christ.

20. Luke - Luke was a physician and a friend of the apostle Paul's.

21. John - The final gospel was written by the disciple, John.

22. Acts - The book of Acts was written by the same Luke who wrote the gospel Luke.

23. Romans, 1 & 2 Corinthians, Galatians, Ephesians, Philippians, Colossians, 1 & 2 Thessalonians, 1 & 2 Timothy, Titus and Philemon - These books were all written by the apostle Paul. Paul was a Jew who originally persecuted the Christians, but was converted to Christianity.

24. Hebrews - The author of this book is unknown, but most likely it is Paul or someone close to Paul.

25. James, 1 & 2 Peter, 1, 2 & 3 John, and Jude - These letters were all named for the men who wrote them.

26. Revelation - This last prophetic book of the Bible was written by the disciple John.

27. This list came from http://www.howtodothings.com/religion-and-spirituality/a2644-how-to-understand-who-wrote-the-books-of-the-bible.html

 

 

I'd also add, while I generally find your posts in a kind tone, I thought I detected a less than such in this one. No one was adverting your question. Quite the opposite. I'd be happy to help any way possible, and as I said, I'm not at home, I'm in a vacation house (house sitting, actually) without my resources. I thought you could google with the same results as I.

Edited August 17, 2009 by johnandtinagilbert
to remove annoying html that didn't carry over

[5Youngs]

And your point is...what? that other religions are barbaric compared to Christianity? Then I suggest perhaps you have been living in a box, considering what Christians have done, the millions they have killed, the whole races they have annihilated, in the name of their religion.

Acts of barbarism are acts of barbarism and no race is free of them, and they are often done in the name of religion. Muslim terrorists do not represent the majority of Muslims yet they kill in the name of their religion too.

It's a sick, messed up world, and that sure doesn't exclude the Christian believing parts of it. There is also a lot of good in it, and I have been to India and its is largely a peaceful place where people's religion is very much part of their day to day life.

In every religion, there are those who seek for the essence and pure heart of the religion, and those who are prepared to just go along with the widespread culture that grows around any religion.

In any country where there is a lot of poverty, lack of education and ignorance.. there will be horrible activities such as wife burning and child selling etc. That doesn't mean the religion promotes it or that most intelligent, educated people follow it. After all, they burned witches a while back, by the thousands, didn't they, in the name of Christianity? And now we go and kill millions of people in other countries in the name of righteous wars. We are not civilised, Christian or not, and it is purely ignorant to think that Christian people or nations are exempt from committing horrible deeds any more or less than anyone esle.

I am just responding to the quote above and the rest of it that was along the same lines, not to what anyone else has said. I find it very offensive that anyone would think that Christians are more loving or more civilized, less barbaric, than say, the Hindus, in general.

 

Well stated, Peela!:hurray:

I tend to stay out of these conversations. What's the point really?

Are we that bored that we are going to sit here and argue with our keyboard? :confused:

I cannot, however, walk away from this one~ :glare:

I am speechless at the arrogance and ignorance of 'christians' responding to this.

Do you REALLY read your Bible or just throw out a few verses that make you sound well-read?

Literal interpretation of EVERY verse means that you are ALL going to hell, according to Luke 14:33. 'So therefore, any one of you who does not renounce ALL that he has cannot be my disciple.'

Jesus' words, not mine. According to him, if you don't 'leave your father, mother, children, brothers, sisters and even your own (comfy) life, you cannot be His disciple.' Luke 14:26

And I didn't take it out of context, read Luke 14:25-33 and prove me wrong.

When we sit on our cushy rears in this country of abundance and DARE to even think that those less fortunate are godless, miserable sinners?

Who do we think we are???!!!!

 

We all have a 94% likelihood of staying the religion that we were raised.

So, God hates/condemns everyone that is born in non-christian countries? (apparently everywhere EXCEPT the United States)

I reject that with all my heart.

God is bigger than that!

 

The beatitudes were surely written for all:

Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

Blessed are those who mourn, for they shall be comforted.

Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth.

Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they shall be satisfied.

Blessed are the merciful, for they shall receive mercy.

Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God.

Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God.

Blessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness' sake, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

Blessed are you when others revile you and persecute you and utter all kinds of evil against you falsely on my account.

--------------

America, you know, God's country, sure couldn't claim many of these.

It's time we all start examining our hearts and acting like disciples, instead of spouting infantile religious rhetoric.

:rant:

[johnandtinagilbert]

Peela, Here is another website with some answers about the Bible. You'll have to look down a little to find a response to a ? similar to yours.

[Greta]

Try googling "specific revelation" and "general revelation."

 

Thanks. Will do.

 

Also it is taught in Revelation that Christ will return, the entire world will see, and all will have an opportunity to acknowledge Him as Lord. (Don't remember the scripture reference, sorry)

 

I am guessing this refers to the people who will be alive at the time? Or do you think that people who died not knowing of him would have an opportunity to acknowledge Him as Lord as well?

 

All in all, kind a a mute question b/c there are vast differences in the faiths that make them non-compatible.

 

Just for the sake of clarity, though, I wasn't really asking if the beliefs of these two religions are compatible. I was wondering what Christians believe about the salvation of those who lived in times and places where Christ wasn't known. The Buddha just provided a convenient example.

 

I believe that Buddha is in God's memory awaiting resurrection. Jesus Christ stated: “Do not two sparrows sell for a coin of small value? Yet not one of them will fall to the ground without your Father’s knowledge. But the very hairs of your head are all numbered. Therefore have no fear: you are worth more than many sparrows.†(Matthew 10:29-31)

 

Acts 24:15 "and I have hope toward God, which hope these [men] themselves also entertain, that there is going to be a resurrection of both the righteous and the unrighteous"

 

This is lovely, Carmen. Thanks for posting it. I'm a little, um, let's say less comfortable with what JW's think is going to happen to the vast majority of the people alive on earth today. But I know their view of people who lived in the past is that they will be resurrected and given the opportunity to accept God, and that is a beautiful hope.

 

Thanks, everyone, for the replies.

[johnandtinagilbert]

Quote:

Originally Posted by johnandtinagilbert

Also it is taught in Revelation that Christ will return, the entire world will see, and all will have an opportunity to acknowledge Him as Lord. (Don't remember the scripture reference, sorry)

 

Quote from Greta Lynne: I am guessing this refers to the people who will be alive at the time? Or do you think that people who died not knowing of him would have an opportunity to acknowledge Him as Lord as well?

 

The Bible says the dead will rise (Christ will call them up), so yes, I believe all, dead and alive, will have the opportunity for repentance; however not all will take that opportunity.

[5kidsforME]

Then I suggest perhaps you have been living in a box, considering what Christians have done, the millions they have killed, the whole races they have annihilated, in the name of their religion.

.

 

 

Can you give and example of this?

[5Youngs]

Can you give and example of this?

 

Are we all using the same human history?:confused:

Seriously, the middle ages might be a place to start, then fast forward as far as is comfortable............

[johnandtinagilbert]

Are we all using the same human history?:confused:

Seriously, the middle ages might be a place to start, then fast forward as far as is comfortable............

That is a grat place to start...where the Muslims and Christians were killing each other in the name of their God and factions of the Christian church were battling each other b/c of differences in who God was.

[Greta]

The Bible says the dead will rise (Christ will call them up), so yes, I believe all, dead and alive, will have the opportunity for repentance; however not all will take that opportunity.

 

I see. Thank you!

[HRAAB]

Can you give and example of this?

 

She's probably referring to the treatment of Native Americans, for example. While religion has blamed for terrible atrocities, and no doubt religion has been used as a reason, I find the true fault to be man's greed, pride and ego. If religion weren't available to use, man would find another reason to subdue a weaker people. We've been at it since the beginning - Cain and Abel. Humans are human....

 

Janet

[Caroline4kids]

She's probably referring to the treatment of Native Americans, for example. While religion has blamed for terrible atrocities, and no doubt religion has been used as a reason, I find the true fault to be man's greed, pride and ego. If religion weren't available to use, man would find another reason to subdue a weaker people. We've been at it since the beginning - Cain and Abel. Humans are human....

 

Janet

 

:iagree:

The whole "by their fruits you shall know them" thing. Many claim to be Christian, but true folllowers will show the behaviors of Christ. We all stumble, but beating down one race or faith in Jesus' name consistantly is not exhibiting the nature of Jesus.

[Lovedtodeath]

This is lovely, Carmen. Thanks for posting it. I'm a little, um, let's say less comfortable with what JW's think is going to happen to the vast majority of the people alive on earth today. But I know their view of people who lived in the past is that they will be resurrected and given the opportunity to accept God, and that is a beautiful hope.

 

I am sorry you feel that way. I will not say that some Jehovah's Witnesses are not judgemenetal. I will say that we have had very strong council in that regard, including a new understandinng of the scripture referring to the separation of sheep and the goats. (It is not something that we are helping with now, as previously understood.) The idea that the majority alive today will not make it is based on the comments about the narrow road, along with the fact that the majority of people today are very attached to immorality, violence, wickedness or material things. Also a scripture that I cannot find at the moment... it deals with preaching and those not warned "Their blood is on your hands." However, this is the official answer to that:

 

Do they [Jehovah's Witnesses] believe that they are the only ones who will be saved?

 

Moreover, Jesus said that we should not be judging one another. We look at the outward appearance; God looks at the heart. He sees accurately and judges mercifully. He has committed judgment into Jesus' hands, not ours.—Matthew 7:1-5; 24:21; 25:31.

 

 

There has also been emphasis of God's justice and more emphasis on points such as the scriptures below:

Matthew 25:34-40: "Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, ..... "The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.'

 

2 Peter 3:9 "The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance."

 

Romans 10:13 "For everyone who calls upon the name of Jehovah will be saved."

[Peek a Boo]

I am speechless at the arrogance and ignorance of 'christians' responding to this.

 

I'm not speechless. I fully expect ignorance and arrogance from EVERYONE irrespective of religion. Including you.

 

Do you REALLY read your Bible or just throw out a few verses that make you sound well-read?

 

I've read it. You seem to have missed quite a bit though.

 

Literal interpretation of EVERY verse means that you are ALL going to hell, according to Luke 14:33. 'So therefore, any one of you who does not renounce ALL that he has cannot be my disciple.'

Jesus' words, not mine. According to him, if you don't 'leave your father, mother, children, brothers, sisters and even your own (comfy) life, you cannot be His disciple.' Luke 14:26

And I didn't take it out of context, read Luke 14:25-33 and prove me wrong.

 

 

ok.

 

this is actually pretty easy to research, and has already been discussed, so i'll save myself some typing and pull a few things from one site. feel free to research more if you want.

The Cost of Being a Disciple

25Large crowds were traveling with Jesus, and turning to them he said: 26"If anyone comes to me and does not hate his father and mother, his wife and children, his brothers and sisters—yes, even his own life—he cannot be my disciple. 27And anyone who does not carry his cross and follow me cannot be my disciple.

 

28"Suppose one of you wants to build a tower. Will he not first sit down and estimate the cost to see if he has enough money to complete it? 29For if he lays the foundation and is not able to finish it, everyone who sees it will ridicule him, 30saying, 'This fellow began to build and was not able to finish.'

 

31"Or suppose a king is about to go to war against another king. Will he not first sit down and consider whether he is able with ten thousand men to oppose the one coming against him with twenty thousand? 32If he is not able, he will send a delegation while the other is still a long way off and will ask for terms of peace. 33In the same way, any of you who does not give up everything he has cannot be my disciple.

 

34"Salt is good, but if it loses its saltiness, how can it be made salty again? 35It is fit neither for the soil nor for the manure pile; it is thrown out.

"He who has ears to hear, let him hear."

 

first, we look at EVERYTHING that Christ has said, not just a few key verses [like you accuse others of doing]:

 

in green = http://bible.org/seriespage/how-hate-your-wife-luke-1425-35

Perhaps the most crucial tension of the text is this: Jesus here requires every disciple to hate those whom He elsewhere commands us to love. We are told that to be His disciple one must “hate his own father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters†(v. 26). Elsewhere, however, we are not even given the luxury of hating our enemy, let alone those nearest and dearest to us. How, then, can Jesus command us to hate those whom we love, and those whom we are elsewhere commanded to love?

 

true context commands love. So what did Christ really mean? We can find the bigger picture in the parallel gospel of Matthew:

 

“Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I came to SET A MAN AGAINST HIS FATHER, AND A DAUGHTER AGAINST HER MOTHER, AND A DAUGHTER-IN-LAW AGAINST HER MOTHER-IN-LAW; and A MAN’S ENEMIES WILL BE THE MEMBERS OF HIS HOUSEHOLD. He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me; and he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me. And he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me. He who has found his life shall lose it, and he who has lost his life for My sake shall find it†(Matthew 10:34-39, NASB).

 

did you catch that "more than me" part?? If you love ANYTHING more than Christ, you are placing that person/thing/idea as an IDOL.

 

To have other gods, is to love them above God. To have other gods is to hate God.

 

So we should hate as idols anyone --even our own family.

Since Christ has used hyperbolic language in many of His parables, it seems reasonable to conclude --based on EXTENSIVE scriptural context-- that He is literally doing the same here. i do agree that if you are going to take as literal word for word in scripture w/o considering plot and literary devices that were used by Christ Himself, i can't help you except to beg that you remove your head from your nether regions.

 

there's plenty more about what real love looks like as a Christian, but if you want to arrogantly dismiss the rest of scripture to make your point, go for it.

When we sit on our cushy rears in this country of abundance and DARE to even think that those less fortunate are godless, miserable sinners?

Who do we think we are???!!!!

we are people who can observe what people say and do. there actually ARE quite a few admitted godless people. Christians absolutely admit to being miserable sinners. I'm betting that there are a few godless miserable sinners out there, just because of the sheer number of people. Who said all the "less fortunate are godless, miserable sinners?" or are you merely paraphrasing through your own lens?

We all have a 94% likelihood of staying the religion that we were raised.

So, God hates/condemns everyone that is born in non-christian countries? (apparently everywhere EXCEPT the United States)

I reject that with all my heart.

God is bigger than that!

 

of course not. Everyone is given the opportunity to have faith in God and His promises. Scripture is clear about that.

you can reject it all you want. Nobody's stopping you.

The beatitudes were surely written for all:

Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

Blessed are those who mourn, for they shall be comforted.

Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth.

Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they shall be satisfied.

Blessed are the merciful, for they shall receive mercy.

Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God.

Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God.

Blessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness' sake, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

Blessed are you when others revile you and persecute you and utter all kinds of evil against you falsely on my account.

 

written for ALL??

actually, yes. everyone is welcome to strive for those qualities. But obviously --based on the exact passages you just shared-- not everyone will choose that: many WILL CHOOSE to persecute, revile, and utter all kinds of evil against us.

Those people don't look like they will be blessed, do they?

America, you know, God's country, sure couldn't claim many of these.

It's time we all start examining our hearts and acting like disciples, instead of spouting infantile religious rhetoric.

 

I agree. I'd start w/ your own study of scripture instead of proof texting.

[Greta]

I am sorry you feel that way. I will not say that some Jehovah's Witnesses are not judgemenetal. I will say that we have had very strong council in that regard, including a new understandinng of the scripture referring to the separation of sheep and the goats. (It is not something that we are helping with now, as previously understood.)

 

There has also been emphasis of God's justice and more emphasis on points such as the scriptures below:

Matthew 25:34-40: "Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, ..... "The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.'

 

2 Peter 3:9 "The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance."

 

Romans 10:13 "For everyone who calls upon the name of Jehovah will be saved."

 

If there is more gentleness in the teachings now, I cannot tell you how happy that would make me, since it affects someone that I love very much. Thank you for your kindness, Carmen.

[JudyJudyJudy]

I think more people would answer differently if atheism wasn't so reviled in the US.

 

For example, according to polls, you'd rather vote for a muslim president or a gay president than an atheist president.

http://atheism.about.com/od/atheistbigotryprejudice/a/AtheistSurveys.htm

 

There was a poll I read in the last year which also had someone with a criminal conviction coming ahead of an atheist.... (sorry, can't find link)

 

I know an atheist who says it's very tough in the workplace to out themselves as being an atheist. People mention 'church' all the time as part of relating stories about their weekends etc. My car broke down on the way from church. My son is singing in the church choir tonight so I need to leave early. I'm so tired - I hosted a church social at my house last night.

 

There's not much for atheists to say to out themselves. Hi! I stayed up too late reading Richard Dawkins! I dropped my new Christopher Hitchens book in the tub by accident. :lol: I mean, really.

I do agree with that.

 

There's also the worry that an atheist will be perceived differently, passed up for promotions, or (horrors!) be targeted for conversion, so many are hesitant to out themselves.

Try being an atheist in the Bible Belt!

 

 

This is the reason my youngest daughter left public school the last time and why we will never attempt it again. One classmate asked my dd about her belief in God and when my dd stated she didn't believe in God, the other little girl told every classmate that my dd was going to hell. She was pretty much ostracized from that point on and became a victim of teasing. After a couple of weeks of that nonsense, I withdrew her. So much for secular public school.

This is one of the reasons that I chose to homeschool. It was bad enough that a neighbor's grandchild was already telling ds that he would go to hell if he weren't Christian (she had no idea what are beliefs, or lack thereof, were). I remembered how it was when I was in school and when I was teaching, and I decided that homeschooling would be best. The funny thing is that many Christians are homeschooling around here to keep their kids away from the likes of me, yet the likes of me are homeschooling, too. :p

 

My niece had a teacher who even told some kids in her class that they would go to hell if they didn't go to church. In the same school a Jewish girl was ostracized because she was Jewish instead of Christian (her parents pulled her out of school after that). Most recently, a guy who is LDS was greatly mistreated. It's a sad situation.

 

This is lovely, Carmen. Thanks for posting it. I'm a little, um, let's say less comfortable with what JW's think is going to happen to the vast majority of the people alive on earth today. But I know their view of people who lived in the past is that they will be resurrected and given the opportunity to accept God, and that is a beautiful hope.

 

I think rotting in a grave and feeding the worms sounds a lot better than burning in hell forever. ;)

 

 

I am sorry you feel that way. I will not say that some Jehovah's Witnesses are not judgemenetal. I will say that we have had very strong council in that regard, including a new understandinng of the scripture referring to the separation of sheep and the goats. (It is not something that we are helping with now, as previously understood.) The idea that the majority alive today will not make it is based on the comments about the narrow road, along with the fact that the majority of people today are very attached to immorality, violence, wickedness or material things. Also a scripture that I cannot find at the moment... it deals with preaching and those not warned "Their blood is on your hands." However, this is the official answer to that:

 

 

 

There has also been emphasis of God's justice and more emphasis on points such as the scriptures below:

Matthew 25:34-40: "Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, ..... "The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.'

 

2 Peter 3:9 "The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance."

 

Romans 10:13 "For everyone who calls upon the name of Jehovah will be saved."

I was raised with the Jehovah's Witness beliefs of the 60s and 70s, and it's hard to shake that. I'm glad they are becoming more open-minded in general.

[elizabeth]

actually, several of the books WERE written by people who knew Jesus. We simply don't have the original copies.

 

eta: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Testament

 

To try to stay on topic for this thread, people advised you to research it a bit and offered additional help if you required it. I guess they wrongly assumed that you were capable of researching that simple question.

 

Abstract answers merely mean that we understand there is always some debate on some specific within the academic community -- if you search hard enough, you can always find an "expert" that is too happy to dismiss the Scriptures as full of error and/or wrong.

 

We don't "trust the scholars" ---we trust that God works through people to preserve His Word.

 

eta: Paul met Christ Himself on the Road to Damascus. But I do understand that many dismiss that also ;)

 

Peela here is a link more accurately responding to your query. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Higher_criticism I do not personally know anyone who does not approach the Bible in this fashion. Therefore, Peek's use of WE in the sentence," We don't trust the scholars" is not reflective of this Christian nor of many, many people that I am around. I point this out not to be divisive but merely for the sake of stating unequivocally that there is certainly another way to read /interpret God's word well accepted by many faithful persons . Fundamentalism is but one variety of religious thought and not one I wish to be in any way associated with.

[Jugglin'5]

Peela here is a link more accurately responding to your query. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Higher_criticism I do not personally know anyone who does not approach the Bible in this fashion. Therefore, Peek's use of WE in the sentence," We don't trust the scholars" is not reflective of this Christian nor of many, many people that I am around. I point this out not to be divisive but merely for the sake of stating unequivocally that there is certainly another way to read /interpret God's word well accepted by many faithful persons . Fundamentalism is but one variety of religious thought and not one I wish to be in any way associated with.

 

I am not a "fundamentalist" in the current sense of the word. The only people I know who really go in for the higher criticism are my extremely liberal Christian relatives for whom the faith is a nice smorgasbord of picking and choosing whatever floats their boat.

[JudyJudyJudy]

I am not a "fundamentalist" in the current sense of the word. The only people I know who really go in for the higher criticism are my extremely liberal Christian relatives for whom the faith is a nice smorgasbord of picking and choosing whatever floats their boat.

Isn't that the beauty of faith? Each person gets to decide what he/she believes.

[5Youngs]

I'm not speechless. I fully expect ignorance and arrogance from EVERYONE irrespective of religion. Including you.

 

first, we look at EVERYTHING that Christ has said, not just a few key verses [like you accuse others of doing]:

 

Since Christ has used hyperbolic language in many of His parables, it seems reasonable to conclude --based on EXTENSIVE scriptural context-- that He is literally doing the same here. i do agree that if you are going to take as literal word for word in scripture w/o considering plot and literary devices that were used by Christ Himself, i can't help you except to beg that you remove your head from your nether regions.

 

we are people who can observe what people say and do. there actually ARE quite a few admitted godless people. Christians absolutely admit to being miserable sinners. I'm betting that there are a few godless miserable sinners out there, just because of the sheer number of people. Who said all the "less fortunate are godless, miserable sinners?" or are you merely paraphrasing through your own lens?

 

of course not. Everyone is given the opportunity to have faith in God and His promises. Scripture is clear about that.

you can reject it all you want. Nobody's stopping you.

 

I agree. I'd start w/ your own study of scripture instead of proof texting.

 

Thank you for your points. Apparently you DON't expect ignorance from everyone, (you) because you've 'set everyone else straight' MANY times on this thread. :confused:

 

Secondly, I wasn't aware that I needed to type a thesis on Christ's teachings in order to state my opinions here.

 

Thirdly, I was raised in a Bible-teaching church. My father is an ordained minister who studies the scriptures and discusses them constantly. I read the scriptures and church history almost daily, so I AM entitled to an opinion on Christianity today. I AM one.

[ereks mom]

Christians are followers of Jesus Christ. Christianity is not a religion; it's a relationship.

 

No religion has a "monopoly" on heaven.

 

:iagree:

 

 

My feeling is as a nation, we have long since forgotten what "Christian" really means. Just as your not a car if you are in the garage, you are not a Christian for just going to church/your parents were/you never killed anyone.

 

:iagree:

[elizabeth]

I am not a "fundamentalist" in the current sense of the word. The only people I know who really go in for the higher criticism are my extremely liberal Christian relatives for whom the faith is a nice smorgasbord of picking and choosing whatever floats their boat.

 

We must run in different circles then. :001_smile:

[5Youngs]

For what it's worth, I wasn't meaning that we are all going to hell.:D

 

I was trying to prove that you can quote any verse and make it seem to say whatever you are trying to prove.

I just can't stand it when people respond to threads like this and you can tell that they have no clue what they are talking about, but they quote the same verse over and over and over........

Being a Christian is a state of mind that permeates every fiber of who you are.

It has nothing to do with where you go to church and how involved you are with the other people who attend there.

Christ stated in John 14 that He wishes for us to entertain the widows and the orphans and the poor.

How many churches have you been to that do this?

At Thanksgiving, maybe a homeless dinner night?

 

Christianity is not a once in a while thing, it's a lifestyle~

[jenadina]

One other thing - I don't think of Hinduism as being some hodgepodge religion as it's kind of implied in this. I think somehow this is disrespectful of the Hindu faith.

 

I was referring to the title of this thread....

 

I meant that instead of "Hindu", in that blank it would fit better to have said UU (Unitarian Universalist) or B'hai.

From my perception of Hinduism, it doesn't fit in the blank in this context.

 

Is that clearer?

 

I don't know what UU's believe, but I am a Baha'i.

 

The Baha'i Faith is not a "hodge-podge" religion. Are you referring to the fact that Baha'is believe in progressive revelation? So do Jews, Christians, and Muslims...they just don't believe it progresses as far. Abraham, Moses, Jesus, Mohammed, The Bab, and Baha'u'llah...one after the other, each updating God's message for a new age.

 

I don't think the belief that there is more than one way to reach God is the same thing as saying that "we are all Baha'is" or "we are all Hindus," or "we are all" whatever else.

 

Side note: Baha'is don't believe in heaven and hell like Christians do...we believe that heaven and hell are spiritual states. Heaven is closeness to God, while hell is separation from God.

[Peek a Boo]

Peela here is a link more accurately responding to your query. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Higher_criticism I do not personally know anyone who does not approach the Bible in this fashion. Therefore, Peek's use of WE in the sentence," We don't trust the scholars" is not reflective of this Christian nor of many, many people that I am around. I point this out not to be divisive but merely for the sake of stating unequivocally that there is certainly another way to read /interpret God's word well accepted by many faithful persons . Fundamentalism is but one variety of religious thought and not one I wish to be in any way associated with.

 

no, it doesn't "more accurately" respond because it still doesn't offer original source material that she asked about. The Higher Criticism is [one of] what I was referring to when I mentioned those articulate buzzwords. It is also extremely subjective.

per your wiki link:

Higher criticism treats the Bible as a text created by human beings at a particular historical time and for various human motives, in contrast with the treatment of the Bible as the inerrant word of God.

 

That's not something I'm interested in being associated with in any way.

but to each their own, sure.

 

eta: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Testament#Authorship discusses the debate about unsubstantiated claims on both sides.

Edited August 17, 2009 by Peek a Boo

[Peek a Boo]

Thank you for your points. Apparently you DON't expect ignorance from everyone, (you) because you've 'set everyone else straight' MANY times on this thread. :confused:

 

I've kept my thoughts about Christianity consistent with what scripture says in context. Feel free to set me straight if I haven't.

Secondly, I wasn't aware that I needed to type a thesis on Christ's teachings in order to state my opinions here.

you don't.

But do be aware that ANY opinions posted on a public discussion board are likely to be met with opposition or lots of clarification.

 

Thirdly, I was raised in a Bible-teaching church. My father is an ordained minister who studies the scriptures and discusses them constantly. I read the scriptures and church history almost daily, so I AM entitled to an opinion on Christianity today. I AM one.

 

that's great. I like when i see evidence of that.

 

I don't particularly like it when i DON't see evidence of that.

Post something contrary to what scripture's context says, and I'll disagree with it. again --feel free to prove me wrong too.

 

 

For what it's worth, I wasn't meaning that we are all going to hell.:D

 

I was trying to prove that you can quote any verse and make it seem to say whatever you are trying to prove.

 

yes. prooftexting. we've had discussions about this before elsewhere on the board. It's not the mark of a mature reader of the Bible.

 

I just can't stand it when people respond to threads like this and you can tell that they have no clue what they are talking about, but they quote the same verse over and over and over........

 

there are certainly several "go to" verses about specific topics. If you feel there hasn't been enough scriptural corroboration about an issue, try asking for more Scriptural resources instead of spouting infantile rhetoric.

Being a Christian is a state of mind that permeates every fiber of who you are.

It has nothing to do with where you go to church and how involved you are with the other people who attend there.

 

lookie! I agree :)

 

Christ stated in John 14 that He wishes for us to entertain the widows and the orphans and the poor.

How many churches have you been to that do this?

At Thanksgiving, maybe a homeless dinner night?

 

 

I've seen quite a few actually. And upon further investigation many have been financially supporting orphanages and shelters.

 

Are you telling me that you rarely see this?? :confused:

[hornblower]

I don't know what UU's believe, but I am a Baha'i.

 

The Baha'i Faith is not a "hodge-podge" religion. .

 

I apologize if my clumsy wording is offensive. I had an idea I was trying to get across there which I'm now at a loss to do because all the ways I phrase things it comes out wrong. I meant no disrespect.

[Dirtroad]

UUs, Jews, Hindus, etc just make it so there is more room in heaven for all the true Christians. You should be thanking us.

 

We should be heartbroken.... if this were not sarcasm.

[jenadina]

I apologize if my clumsy wording is offensive. I had an idea I was trying to get across there which I'm now at a loss to do because all the ways I phrase things it comes out wrong. I meant no disrespect.

 

Don't give up! I just felt the need to clarify what Baha'is *do* believe, because many people don't know.

 

I know exactly how you feel about things coming out wrong...I've had my message up since this morning, trying to figure out how to phrase it. I'm not a very articulate person AT. ALL. (And I'm not saying that applies to you, just commiserating about the difficulties of internet communication!)

[Dirtroad]

This is the reason my youngest daughter left public school the last time and why we will never attempt it again. One classmate asked my dd about her belief in God and when my dd stated she didn't believe in God, the other little girl told every classmate that my dd was going to hell. She was pretty much ostracized from that point on and became a victim of teasing. After a couple of weeks of that nonsense, I withdrew her. So much for secular public school.

 

Kids can be just MEAN. With your daughter, it was relegion. With me as a kid it was my weight & I didn't wear the right clothes. With some kids it is their parents jobs.... the list is endless.

 

It really isnt' relegion... it is meanness.

[JudyJudyJudy]

Kids can be just MEAN. With your daughter, it was relegion. With me as a kid it was my weight & I didn't wear the right clothes. With some kids it is their parents jobs.... the list is endless.

 

It really isnt' relegion... it is meanness.

You don't find it to be even sadder when the cruelness is done in the name of God?

[Dirtroad]

That is a grat place to start...where the Muslims and Christians were killing each other in the name of their God and factions of the Christian church were battling each other b/c of differences in who God was.

 

But dont' forget, the people (for the most part) could not read & there was only 1 Christian church. Often the clerics of this church were not well read in scripture and spent more energy on rules passed by leadership than actual word of God. This what got Martin Luther so passionate.

 

With the Christian church not guided by scripture, but by the desires of humans .... you can't expect good results often.

 

Many of the battles between Muslims & Christians had more to do with LAND & POWER... than relegion. Ah, but relegion gets the people more passionate or gives them HOPE that they are fighting for "a real reason" and not just rich Prince to get more land.

[hornblower]

Don't give up! I just felt the need to clarify what Baha'is *do* believe, because many people don't know.

 

I know exactly how you feel about things coming out wrong...I've had my message up since this morning, trying to figure out how to phrase it. I'm not a very articulate person AT. ALL. (And I'm not saying that applies to you, just commiserating about the difficulties of internet communication!)

 

You're very gracious about this.

I think what I was trying to get at is that from my limited understanding of your faith, it could in some way be said to encapsulate Christianity. I was envisioning something like set theory bubbles. I understand that your faith continues further - as you say it progresses through other holy people's revelations - but it recognizes the Christian messiah (as does Islam, right?). Whereas I think of Hinduism as apart from these circles (again set theory bubbles).

I guess UU would be a giant bubble all around all these circles.

 

I'm not sure if this is helpful or not.

 

I still think that nominal Christians who are perhaps just spiritually fumbling along & trying to find their way up the mountain and not following strict biblical teachings, should not be called Hindu - which was the title of this thread.

[jenadina]

I understand that your faith continues further - as you say it progresses through other holy people's revelations - but it recognizes the Christian messiah (as does Islam, right?).

Right.

 

I'm not sure if this is helpful or not.

Much clearer :)

 

I still think that nominal Christians who are perhaps just spiritually fumbling along & trying to find their way up the mountain and not following strict biblical teachings, should not be called Hindu - which was the title of this thread.

 

:iagree: I don't think they should be labeled as any other religion. "Nominal" or "cultural" Christian works just fine for me!

[JudyJudyJudy]

You're very gracious about this.

I think what I was trying to get at is that from my limited understanding of your faith, it could in some way be said to encapsulate Christianity. I was envisioning something like set theory bubbles. I understand that your faith continues further - as you say it progresses through other holy people's revelations - but it recognizes the Christian messiah (as does Islam, right?). Whereas I think of Hinduism as apart from these circles (again set theory bubbles).

I guess UU would be a giant bubble all around all these circles.

My understanding is that Islam recognizes Jesus as a prophet, not as the messiah. Maybe a Muslim on the board can clarify.

 

 

I'm not sure if this is helpful or not.

 

I still think that nominal Christians who are perhaps just spiritually fumbling along & trying to find their way up the mountain and not following strict biblical teachings, should not be called Hindu - which was the title of this thread.

I agree.

[stripe]

My understanding is that Islam recognizes Jesus as a prophet, not as the messiah.

 

"The Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, was but a Messenger of God, and His word which He conveyed to Mary, and a spirit proceeding from Him" (Quran, 4:171). "

 

"Indeed, the angels said: 'O Mary! God gives you glad tidings of a word from Him, whose name is the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, illustrious in this world and the Hereafter, and he shall be among those brought near [to God]. He will speak to humankind in the cradle and in manhood, and he is of the righteous" (Quran, 3:45).

[JudyJudyJudy]

"The Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, was but a Messenger of God, and His word which He conveyed to Mary, and a spirit proceeding from Him" (Quran, 4:171). "

 

"Indeed, the angels said: 'O Mary! God gives you glad tidings of a word from Him, whose name is the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, illustrious in this world and the Hereafter, and he shall be among those brought near [to God]. He will speak to humankind in the cradle and in manhood, and he is of the righteous" (Quran, 3:45).

Thanks, stripe.

[Erica in PA]

You don't find it to be even sadder when the cruelness is done in the name of God?

 

I would feel sorry for any child treating unkindly by his classmates, regardless of the topic... I don't feel that it's extra-egregious when it comes from religious people-- do you?

[JudyJudyJudy]

Stripe, are you Muslim? If so, you'd certainly know more about this than I. However, the information I'm finding seems contradictory to what you posted.

 

http://www.ibnzura.com/quran.php

 

This page is written in a way that is intended as information about Isa (Jesus) to Muslims, from their Qur'anic perspective. Please consult your own Qur'an and verify the following conclusions.

In the Qur'an Jesus is not God, the Son of God or a man who died on the cross. Jesus is in the Qur'an a prophet whose message the Jews rejected. He is called the Messiah, but that means only that he is a messenger from God (Qur'an 4:171). He brought the Gospel (Qur'an 57:27).

 

Bold mine. Apparently, "messiah" in the scripture doesn't have the same meaning to Muslims as to Christians.

Edited August 18, 2009 by JudyJudyJudy

[JudyJudyJudy]

I would feel sorry for any child treating unkindly by his classmates, regardless of the topic... I don't feel that it's extra-egregious when it comes from religious people-- do you?

Actually, I do feel that it's worse when the meanness is done in the name of God. If it's simply done by a religious person, but not in the name of God, then that's different.

[Peela]

I'd also add, while I generally find your posts in a kind tone, I thought I detected a less than such in this one. No one was adverting your question. Quite the opposite. I'd be happy to help any way possible, and as I said, I'm not at home, I'm in a vacation house (house sitting, actually) without my resources. I thought you could google with the same results as I.

 

I could have googled but I wondered if Christians generally knew, off the top of their heads. Apparently not.

 

Peela, Here is another website with some answers about the Bible. You'll have to look down a little to find a response to a ? similar to yours.

 

Thankyou, that was what I was looking for. Now I am a little more educated, without having to wade through pages of documentation.

I am aware though that there are many documents that werent included in the Bible that conflict with what is in the Bible. It is a very interesting area of study, obviously.

I appreciate that you took the time to search for the information that was accessible for me, while on holidays.

[stripe]

the information I'm finding seems contradictory to what you posted.

Given that your information is coming from a website that is designed to convert Muslims to Christianity, it's not a great surprise that it may differ from the Quran. The verse cited in that quote relates to the issue of whether Jesus is the "son of" God.

 

PICKTHAL: O People of the Scripture! Do not exaggerate in your religion nor utter aught concerning Allah save the truth. The Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, was only a messenger of Allah, and His word which He conveyed unto Mary, and a spirit from Him. So believe in Allah and His messengers, and say not "Three" - Cease! (it is) better for you! - Allah is only One Allah. Far is it removed from His Transcendent Majesty that He should have a son. His is all that is in the heavens and all that is in the earth. And Allah is sufficient as Defender.

 

 

Bold mine. Apparently, "messiah" in the scripture doesn't have the same meaning to Muslims as to Christians.

Could be.

[Peela]

Originally Posted by Peela

Then I suggest perhaps you have been living in a box, considering what Christians have done, the millions they have killed, the whole races they have annihilated, in the name of their religion.

 

Can you give and example of this?

 

Well, you dont have to look far, but I am sure there are many Native American tribes. There are many Australian Aboriginal tribes, and the whole of the Tasmanian race.

I am not saying it is Christian behaviour or pointing the finger. Its just very ignorant to think that other races commit terrible atrocities "in the name of their religion" without acknowledging the many that people who have called themselves Christian have done and continue to do.

I am not picking on Christians in this...it is just fact.