We Are All Hindus Now?

[johnandtinagilbert]

But that's because your idea of hell is different from that of most other Christians. The JWs I know believe that those who "reject the Truth" won't have eternal life, so ultimately, that's as bad as it gets. As for "destroyed," though, I've read numerous scriptures with that terminology; however, the NWT tends to use expressions like "cut off" instead.

 

 

 

The thread isn't just about what is Christian and what is not; I'm not sure where you got that it is. The thread is about believing that there can be different paths to salvation.

She got it b/c there was discussion early in the thread that statistically, our Nation is understood as Christian b/c many people check the Christian box on forms; however, those persons do not understand, nor walk in the tenants of the faith like 1) Jesus is God 2)Jesus is the Way, the Truth and non one and get to the Father (God in heaven) not just an amazingly intelligent prophet and nice guy. People say they are Christian but believe a path to heaven has little or nothing to do with Jesus. She's on topic.

[johnandtinagilbert]

 

Well, there are Christians (speaking of Jehovah's Witnesses) who do NOT believe that Jesus is God, but they also don't believe that he is a liar and a fraud. They believe he is the Son and the Savior.

Which is why *personally* I use the term Christian loosely and prefer to identify persons more specifically. Christian is far too general and overused.

 

Yes, or mistranslated. The possibilities are endless.

The claim is laid out in a variety of places in the Bible. If a person believes the bible to be the Word of God, then there are numerous places they can find this and as momma duck said,

 

His claim is what got him crucified.

 

Again, so the many times rewritten Bible says, and I dont know enough to know whether all Bibles put it that way, anyway.

The translations argument loses ground in our modern society. There are reference books available in original languages to diminish the "lost in translation" problem. If a person truly wants to study the bible, in it's original language and form, it isn't difficult. I am certain there are those who misinterpret scripture b/c of what you say, but the Opportunity to avoid that confusion is readily available to modern civilizations.

 

From an Evangelical viewpoint, isn't America the most Christian nation on Earth?

It is said that 95% of those graduating from seminary stay in the US and only 5% leave our nation, so statistically, yes; however, I would bring forth again that Christian is a loose term and there are a lot of people checking that box b/c their parents sent them to church on Sunday, but never discussed religion at home or raised them in a lifestyle of Christianity. There is a profound difference in saying one is a Christian and one having relationship with their deity and striving to follow His example beyond being a "good" person. Also, of our population, I wonder how few those who attend seminary represent (since I mentioned it ;) )

[Peela]

From an Evangelical viewpoint, isn't America the most Christian nation on Earth?

 

Sure seems like that from DownUnder :)

[Laurie4b]

There's an interesting article in Newsweek about how Americans' views of who will or will not have salvation. Apparently, Americans are coming more and more to believe that many faiths might lead to salvation, even as they personally remain Christian.

 

 

 

But I wonder, since most of the population remains Christian, and has nothing to do with traditional Hindu beliefs, if this shift isn't more akin to embracing universalism than anything.

 

Thoughts?

 

I wonder what "in the spirit of Hinduism" means. There is significant religious persecution in India, a number of whom self-identify as Hindus.

[Peela]

 

The translations argument loses ground in our modern society. There are reference books available in original languages to diminish the "lost in translation" problem. If a person truly wants to study the bible, in it's original language and form, it isn't difficult. I am certain there are those who misinterpret scripture b/c of what you say, but the Opportunity to avoid that confusion is readily available to modern civilizations.

 

 

 

OK, you may be able to educate me here. Which parts of the Bible were actually written, and we have the original scrolls in whatever language, during or within a short period after, Jesus' life/death, by someone who actually knew him? I didnt think there were any but I'm no Bible scholar.

[johnandtinagilbert]

OK, you may be able to educate me here. Which parts of the Bible were actually written, and we have the original scrolls in whatever language, during or within a short period after, Jesus' life/death, by someone who actually knew him? I didnt think there were any but I'm no Bible scholar.

Peela,

I'm on vacation and not at home, so my reference tools are limited, but I did google and was able to find this It goes over some scroll information. People also have a wonderful source through a concordance (Like Strong's) that hit every word in the bible in the original language and give meaning. Honestly, it's time consuming, but if a person wants to study the bible, it's not difficult to get resources.

HTH as much as possible.

[Firefly]

Murder is NOT Christian (& the conversation was about trying to equate all relegions equally as Americans want the relegion buffet to have it all.... & about the OP post involved the Hindus & Christians & changes/beliefs, etc). This attack on my post is a rabbit trail.

 

Murder is not a part of the the teachings of Christ & is not acceptible on any grounds.... none. Your examples have nothing to do with the Christian relegion but violent acts upon various groups which are quickly handled by the LAW of our land. They are not culturally accepted, regional norms, or even supported by the people.

 

Abortion is not Christian either, and yet it exists--and is legal-- in this country. It doesn't mean the Bible condones it, any more than the Koran condones rape. Many of these things you mentioned are cultural maladies, exacerbated by poverty and lack of education, but we have them here, too.

 

As someone else said, many horrible acts are committed in the name of religion. ALL of them. The Witch Trials, the KKK, Waco ... doesn't mean I judge the Christian religion by these acts.

 

[Though the Bible does say, "Suffer not a witch to live"..... doesn't it?]

Edited August 17, 2009 by Firefly

[Jane]

But I wonder, since most of the population remains Christian, and has nothing to do with traditional Hindu beliefs, if this shift isn't more akin to embracing universalism than anything.

 

Thoughts?

 

Sad. I do know some people who considers themselves "Christian" like one considers their nationality. They see it as "tradition" rather than understand the meaning of being Christian. As for many ways to heaven, only one person died and later ROSE from the dead thereby proving his power to save us from death.

[Peek a Boo]

Yes, or mistranslated. The possibilities are endless.

 

Not in faith they aren't.

 

I forgot --gotta add "mistranslated" and "misquoted" to the list of buzzwords. ;)

[Dirtroad]

Again, so the many times rewritten Bible says, and I dont know enough to know whether all Bibles put it that way, anyway.

 

Peela, you are sting common stereotypes based on years of translations passed through Latin, old english, another old english, and modern english etc. These are assumptions made that those who copied the work did not look at their job as HUGE & requiring great care & respect. Yes, there were some mistakes. There were some words that didn't go from Greek to Latin or Latin to English easily. Most educated teachers, preachers & scholars use multiple translations to be careful (in old translations) to get the exact wording.

 

Today, we do have "modern thinkers" who are NOT respecting the word & making many HUGE changes in Bibles. However, these are NOT recognized by most churches b/c they completely alter God & his teaching. (if you find a Bible that sites God as a She/He or a Tree... they have taken huge liberties & do not respect God)

 

Another thing to consider is that MOST MODERN English translations did not use Latin & King James as sources. They take the translation ALL THE WAY back to the oldest text available (which were written very near the life of the disciples & Christ). They read the Greek, etc & go straight to modern English.

 

There may be variations in the NAIL going through the hand or the wrist... but HE still hung on the cross!;)

[Peek a Boo]

 

[Though the Bible does say, "Suffer not a witch to live"..... doesn't it?]

 

yeah... there's some disturbing things in the Koran too.

 

With the Bible, we have Christ who takes the penalties for all the stuff in the law. HE was the final and ultimate sacrifice.

[Peek a Boo]

Yes, there were some mistakes. There were some words that didn't go from Greek to Latin or Latin to English easily. Most educated teachers, preachers & scholars use multiple translations to be careful (in old translations) to get the exact wording.

......

There may be variations in the NAIL going through the hand or the wrist... but HE still hung on the cross!;)

 

Christianity is not dependent on a specific translation. That's another huge misunderstanding of the issue of faith. But it's a lot easier to argue mistranslations and original scrollwork than faith ;)

[Dirtroad]

From an Evangelical viewpoint, isn't America the most Christian nation on Earth?

 

I would say that American is the most Christian nation on earth... but that doesn't mean without SIN... without temptation & wicked decisions.

 

Christian doesn't mean perfect. It means recognition of sin, recognition of repentance being needed.... and recognition of CHRIST as LORD & SAVIOR. (not shouting, just emphasis)

 

Why do so many think Christianity means no sin:confused:.... it just means that we recognize how rotten we can be & our only way to the presence of God is THROUGH Christ (dying sinless on the cross for the sins of humans and his resurrection).

[Peek a Boo]

Sad. I do know some people who considers themselves "Christian" like one considers their nationality. They see it as "tradition" rather than understand the meaning of being Christian.

 

yes --Cultural Christians. :)

[Lovedtodeath]

Again, so the many times rewritten Bible says, and I dont know enough to know whether all Bibles put it that way, anyway.

Effort is needed to strangthen ones faith in the Bible. I have gone over it many times. Is the Bible as a whole written by God? I have faith that it was. Do you know how many people tried to destroy the Bible yet it survived? Do you know that it has been proven time and again to be the most accurately translated Ancient text that we have? Each time an older scroll is found scholars are astounded at the accuracy. Are the scriptures translated correctly? I have done research into that question. It is time consuming. I can point you to some resources if you like, but to get you specific answers to your questions would take more time and effort than I am willing to put in, honestly, because if you are truly motivated, then you will personally put that time and effort in. Like the PP said, it is possible to find this out.

 

Peela,

I'm on vacation and not at home, so my reference tools are limited, but I did google and was able to find this It goes over some scroll information. People also have a wonderful source through a concordance (Like Strong's) that hit every word in the bible in the original language and give meaning. Honestly, it's time consuming, but if a person wants to study the bible, it's not difficult to get resources.

HTH as much as possible.

 

[Though the Bible does say, "Suffer not a witch to live"..... doesn't it?]

This was in Exodus, when God's people were a nation and they were to be kept separate and holy. Withcraft was as wrong as adultery. They were not to allow it within their nation. It is a sin for a Christian to practice witchcraft, but Christians are not supposed to carry out God's justice on Non-christians, nor are they to kill anyone.

[HRAAB]

yes --Cultural Christians. :)

 

Actually I see America as becomming quite culturally Christian. People call themselves Christian, go to church, because that's what their family's tradition is, without having much idea what their church teaches or what Christianity really is. At least in the more mainline denominations. I've read before that Europe is more culturally or traditionally Christian than in actual belief/actions. When people are only call themselves Christian because that's what their culture is, and they're not knowledgeable about their faith, they end up accepting secular/popular ideas and mixing them all up together.

 

I dunno....

 

Janet

[Lovedtodeath]

When people are only call themselves Christian because that's what their culture is, and they're not knowledgeable about their faith, they end up accepting secular/popular ideas and mixing them all up together.

 

I dunno....

 

Janet

Yes, ITA... but why did you say "I dunno"?

[HRAAB]

Yes, ITA... but why did you say "I dunno"?

 

I dunno.... :001_smile: Maybe because when I state my opinions/beliefs it gets pointed how I might/am wrong.

 

Janet

[Peek a Boo]

From an Evangelical viewpoint, isn't America the most Christian nation on Earth?

 

From an Evangelical viewpoint, America is seen as an obvious mission field.

[OnTheBrink]

Peek, you and I are on the same page with the buzzwords. Scripture is true or it isn't. It, unlike the US Constitution (which some, I've found, equate it to Scripture), can not be changed.

[Dirtroad]

Abortion is not Christian either, and yet it exists--and is legal-- in this country. It doesn't mean the Bible condones it, any more than the Koran condones rape. Many of these things you mentioned are cultural maladies, exacerbated by poverty and lack of education, but we have them here, too.

 

As someone else said, many horrible acts are committed in the name of religion. ALL of them. The Witch Trials, the KKK, Waco ... doesn't mean I judge the Christian religion by these acts.

 

[Though the Bible does say, "Suffer not a witch to live"..... doesn't it?]

 

We are not a nation under CHRISTIAN CLERICAL LAW (as are Iran, Saudi Arabia & many others)(Aristeed's Haiti) as are many of the relegious nations. We do not have powerful, lawmaking clerics telling us what we can & can't wear, eat or can go. There is a huge difference. We do not have rules or laws that refuse to recognize a Hindu in the court or treat them as 1/2 a person. There is a differrence in the CHURCH LEADERS making the laws & being the law.... and having people who attend a church voting & participating in a larger group. Really, they are not intellectually or honestly comparible... but our modern society continues to toss it & hope it sticks.

 

We do have a large number of Christians in this country (thankfully). We do not have a theocracy. This was the entire point of stopping taxes to pay salaries at the church & the seperation of church & state at nation's founding. Actually, the church has been pretty apathetic for years & has let many bad things happen without taking a stand.

 

Who do you see fighting abortion? Who stopped the Salem Witch Trials? (the CHURCH, ex Increase Mather).... Did you know this?? Several Christians did! They stepped in to stop the madness when the civil courts refused to do it correctly.

 

BTW.... someone prior had refered to evil deeds of Christians (which witch trials dont' really fit that description) refered to 1000s of witches dying. There were people accused of witchcraft burned at the stake in Europe. That is a superstitious practice used (especially in medieval times) by Christians and nonChristians. Not here. It has never been considered by most to have been right. Superstition & ignorance. Much of this began to stop when the common man began to read the Bible for himself!

 

In the USA, 160 people were accused in Salem trials.... of those, 19 were hanged, 4 died in prison & 1 (a man) was crushed to death by stones. (the man crushed was so caught up in all the mob mentality that he accused his wife.... later, they came for him). The villagers did this... not the Church as a body. This was WAY more complicated than a Church condemning a behavior or sin. Remember, they all pretty much HAD to go to church in those days... doesn't mean they were all humble believers. They were a MOB and were instigated by a few bratty, punk kids out to cover their hide... and parents who believed their children over adults (starting to sound like today's parents). It was superstition and wicked! It was the civil courts that tried & sentenced them (often with little to NO evidence). :001_huh:

 

Thank Goodness, Pastor Mather & others saw the evil of the court system & the evil of the village & fought back.

 

It is a very sad period of colonial history... and made even sadder by the politically correct (anti Christian) teaching of the modern historians.

 

As for cultural maladies exacerbated by poverty & lack of education, I would disagree. It is too common in many nations to be beheaded, tortured, mutilated, and go missing without a trace.... not rare or a mob... but the government lead by clerics. Iran (an educated people)??? Saudi Arabia (not a poor nation)?? It is common to hear of missionaries attacked in India, Indonesia... on & on. Very few relegions are tolerant of others, but Christians have always lived among others... even in some of the earliest colonies which were founded for that very reason (NH, PN, NJ are ex)!

 

The Clan & Waco crowd were not Christian. Name them what people will to make the story better... but by the Biblical definition of being LIKE Christ, they do not fit. May be some church goers.... some who joined & were repentant and left... but not a CHRISTIAN group living to worship & serve Christ & serve/love others.

 

This was too long (sorry) but there were so many questions presented & I wanted to try to respond carefully & respectfully to them.

[Dirtroad]

From an Evangelical viewpoint, America is seen as an obvious mission field.

 

:iagree:... exactly & other nations are sending missionaries to us!

[johnandtinagilbert]

 

This was too long (sorry) but there were so many questions presented & I wanted to try to respond carefully & respectfully to them.

Nicely done, Dirtroad.

[hornblower]

I think more people would answer differently if atheism wasn't so reviled in the US.

 

For example, according to polls, you'd rather vote for a muslim president or a gay president than an atheist president.

http://atheism.about.com/od/atheistbigotryprejudice/a/AtheistSurveys.htm

 

There was a poll I read in the last year which also had someone with a criminal conviction coming ahead of an atheist.... (sorry, can't find link)

 

I know an atheist who says it's very tough in the workplace to out themselves as being an atheist. People mention 'church' all the time as part of relating stories about their weekends etc. My car broke down on the way from church. My son is singing in the church choir tonight so I need to leave early. I'm so tired - I hosted a church social at my house last night.

 

There's not much for atheists to say to out themselves. Hi! I stayed up too late reading Richard Dawkins! I dropped my new Christopher Hitchens book in the tub by accident. :lol: I mean, really.

 

There's also the worry that an atheist will be perceived differently, passed up for promotions, or (horrors!) be targeted for conversion, so many are hesitant to out themselves.

 

I outed myself years ago at work because I worked in law enforcement for the federal government and after our training had to take an oath (to Queen & country!). The person administering the oath brought in a HUGE box of what must have been every holy book which is allowed to be carted around in a box by a civil servant. Most people were picking the KJV, including my buddy who was born in India, raised in Canada & whose family was Hindu. He said he didn't really care what he swore on....

 

There were only a couple of us who didn't take a book and chose instead to use the phrase "I affirm....." I don't think it made a diff for my career because the federal civil service is too big & actually I think they do bend over backwards to not be discriminatory in their competition processes.

 

*****

 

One other thing - I don't think of Hinduism as being some hodgepodge religion as it's kind of implied in this. I think somehow this is disrespectful of the Hindu faith.

 

This phenomenon of people saying they're Christian but not really being Christian is IMO a combination of New Age woo-woo spiritualism mixed with cultural heritage identity & fear of admitting atheism or agnosticism.

 

And if someone wanted to suggest that we're all _______ now, the UU comes to mind, and perhpas B'hai.

[jenadina]

And if someone wanted to suggest that we're all _______ now, the UU comes to mind, and perhpas B'hai.

 

I'm not sure what you mean by this...could you clarify?

[hornblower]

I was referring to the title of this thread....

 

I meant that instead of "Hindu", in that blank it would fit better to have said UU (Unitarian Universalist) or B'hai.

From my perception of Hinduism, it doesn't fit in the blank in this context.

 

Is that clearer?

[Greta]

As a side note: The way you (tara) describe "other people's heaven" is much different than the poster who made a comment about God and Buddha chatting in heaven. The latter is a _____? notion. I don't even know how to "adjectize" it.

 

This isn't just directed at Jenn, but anyone who wishes to offer an opinion. It's a sincere question to any and all Christians.

 

The Buddha lived 500 years before the Christ, in a culture far away that knew nothing about the Jewish tradition or God. Is it unfathomable, in Christian theology, that the Buddha could be up in heaven right now chatting with Jesus? He certainly did not reject Jesus, because he never had the chance to know him! What is the Christian view of those people in different times and different cultures who have never been given the opportunity to know Christ?

[Peek a Boo]

This isn't just directed at Jenn, but anyone who wishes to offer an opinion. It's a sincere question to any and all Christians.

 

The Buddha lived 500 years before the Christ, in a culture far away that knew nothing about the Jewish tradition or God. Is it unfathomable, in Christian theology, that the Buddha could be up in heaven right now chatting with Jesus? He certainly did not reject Jesus, because he never had the chance to know him! What is the Christian view of those people in different times and different cultures who have never been given the opportunity to know Christ?

 

unfathomable? no. only because i can't read his mind :)

if he truly believed everything he professed, I find it incompatible w/ what scripture clearly says. But i'm not God -- i may certainly be missing something.

 

but according to scripture, God has revealed Himself in all of creation. Try googling "specific revelation" and "general revelation."

[mommaduck]

I'm not sure what you mean by this...could you clarify?

 

If someone is hinting that we (general we) are becoming more universalist, then UU and B'hai are universialist faiths. Hinduism is in one sense and not in another.

 

UU and B'hai, correct me anytime, are both of the "more than one path", "all faiths are equal", "the multiplicity of faiths are just many ways of expressing what we experience around us, both physically and spiritually".

 

My godmother was B'hai and my mother would have fit well in a UU.

[johnandtinagilbert]

This isn't just directed at Jenn, but anyone who wishes to offer an opinion. It's a sincere question to any and all Christians.

 

The Buddha lived 500 years before the Christ, in a culture far away that knew nothing about the Jewish tradition or God. Is it unfathomable, in Christian theology, that the Buddha could be up in heaven right now chatting with Jesus? He certainly did not reject Jesus, because he never had the chance to know him! What is the Christian view of those people in different times and different cultures who have never been given the opportunity to know Christ?

Two things:

For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse. Romans 1:20

 

Also it is taught in Revelation that Christ will return, the entire world will see, and all will have an opportunity to acknowledge Him as Lord. (Don't remember the scripture reference, sorry)

 

As for Buddha, I can't judge His heart, but opinions vary as to whether or not people go straight to Heaven upon death. YMMV, so simply by that belief, some would say Buddha can't be chilin' with Jesus.

 

All in all, kind a a mute question b/c there are vast differences in the faiths that make them non-compatible.

[LibraryLover]

UUs, Jews, Hindus, etc just make it so there is more room in heaven for all the true Christians. You should be thanking us.

[Peek a Boo]

UUs, Jews, Hindus, etc just make it so there is more room in heaven for all the true Christians. You should be thanking us.

 

No, we should Not.

[johnandtinagilbert]

UUs, Jews, Hindus, etc just make it so there is more room in heaven for all the true Christians. You should be thanking us.

Ew. I'm hoping you're being light hearted, but honestly, not amusing. Moreso, ew.

[Night Elf]

Being born and raised here, I've had plenty of people (Christians) preach to me that I will go to hell for not taking Jesus Christ as my saviour.

 

This is the reason my youngest daughter left public school the last time and why we will never attempt it again. One classmate asked my dd about her belief in God and when my dd stated she didn't believe in God, the other little girl told every classmate that my dd was going to hell. She was pretty much ostracized from that point on and became a victim of teasing. After a couple of weeks of that nonsense, I withdrew her. So much for secular public school.

[johnandtinagilbert]

This is the reason my youngest daughter left public school the last time and why we will never attempt it again. One classmate asked my dd about her belief in God and when my dd stated she didn't believe in God, the other little girl told every classmate that my dd was going to hell. She was pretty much ostracized from that point on and became a victim of teasing. After a couple of weeks of that nonsense, I withdrew her. So much for secular public school.

Honestly, that is terrible. People should be teaching their children better than that. That behavior falls outside of Christianity. :grouphug: Truly sorry that happened to your dd in the name of Christ. Terrible.

[LibraryLover]

No, we should Not.

 

 

I'm ascared now. :D

[LibraryLover]

Ew. I'm hoping you're being light hearted, but honestly, not amusing. Moreso, ew.

 

 

I am being light hearted by I am shocked by the behavior of many so-called Christians. It's really disgusting.

[Firefly]

yeah... there's some disturbing things in the Koran too.

 

I absolutely agree. My only point was objecting to the idea that a nation needs to be Christian to be "civilized".

[hornblower]

UUs, Jews, Hindus, etc just make it so there is more room in heaven for all the true Christians. You should be thanking us.

 

Only if they're right.

Reminds me of Rowan Atkinson's Welcome to Hell sketch.

It's on youtube.....

 

"Welcome to hell. I'm the Devil. But you can call me Toby. We try to keep things informal here. As well as infernal."

Edited August 17, 2009 by hornblower

[johnandtinagilbert]

I am being light hearted by I am shocked by the behavior of many so-called Christians. It's really disgusting.

I agree. The behavior of people in general is rather disgusting at times.

[Peek a Boo]

I am being light hearted by I am shocked by the behavior of many so-called Christians. It's really disgusting.

 

Now you know why we so desperately need Christ-- THAT is what makes us Christians, not some higher moral standards. People tend to forget that basic aspect of Christianity.

[Peek a Boo]

I absolutely agree. My only point was objecting to the idea that a nation needs to be Christian to be "civilized".

 

can you specify where that idea was put forth? :confused:

[Peek a Boo]

I'm ascared now. :D

 

a-quakin' in yer boots, as ye should be! ;)

[LibraryLover]

This is the reason my youngest daughter left public school the last time and why we will never attempt it again. One classmate asked my dd about her belief in God and when my dd stated she didn't believe in God, the other little girl told every classmate that my dd was going to hell. She was pretty much ostracized from that point on and became a victim of teasing. After a couple of weeks of that nonsense, I withdrew her. So much for secular public school.

 

 

I was once at potluck, and a Catholic woman was wearing one of those Mary medallions, and a 'nice lady' thought it was the proper time to let the Catholic woman know that "Nobody gets to the father except through me". She basically told the woman she was going to hell. But in a really sweet way.

Edited August 17, 2009 by LibraryLover

[HRAAB]

Two things:

For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse. Romans 1:20

 

Also it is taught in Revelation that Christ will return, the entire world will see, and all will have an opportunity to acknowledge Him as Lord. (Don't remember the scripture reference, sorry)

 

As for Buddha, I can't judge His heart, but opinions vary as to whether or not people go straight to Heaven upon death. YMMV, so simply by that belief, some would say Buddha can't be chilin' with Jesus.

 

All in all, kind a a mute question b/c there are vast differences in the faiths that make them non-compatible.

 

In the bolded part, you are speaking of God? That God's power and divine nature have always been evident? If so, I agree with that. So if the person who lived before Christ recognized God (one God) they would be saved? After Christ's death on the cross?

 

What then about those who did not have knowledge of 'God'. I imagine the area of India where Buddha lived, he would not have been exposed to the belief in the one God. Would that preclude him from heaven. Since Christianity and the New Testament didn't exist prior to the time of Christ, I don't see saying those two faiths are incompatible, in reference to Buddha, is applicable.

 

I've very likely misunderstood you. I know what I believe, but I'm trying to understand what other Christians believe. Thanks.

 

Janet

[Firefly]

You seem to feel attacked, and if that was my doing, I apologize! Just trying to point out a different point of view.

 

So just as a point of clarfication, do you feel it is possible for a nation/culture to be non-Christian and still be... for lack of a better word... "civilized"? My point was that horrors exist in all cultures, even Christian ones.

 

We are not a nation under CHRISTIAN CLERICAL LAW (as are Iran, Saudi Arabia & many others)(Aristeed's Haiti) as are many of the relegious nations. We do not have powerful, lawmaking clerics telling us what we can & can't wear, eat or can go. There is a huge difference. We do not have rules or laws that refuse to recognize a Hindu in the court or treat them as 1/2 a person. There is a differrence in the CHURCH LEADERS making the laws & being the law.... and having people who attend a church voting & participating in a larger group. Really, they are not intellectually or honestly comparible... but our modern society continues to toss it & hope it sticks.

 

I don't disagree with anything you've said here, except maybe that we aren't a religious nation. I think polls would argue that we are. No, clerics aren't in charge of the gov't; but I would say that there is a strong religious (Christian) political movement here that does attempt to legislate morality. But yes, I agree that the way our political system is set up makes us different than a theocracy. That was not my point.

 

We do have a large number of Christians in this country (thankfully). We do not have a theocracy. This was the entire point of stopping taxes to pay salaries at the church & the seperation of church & state at nation's founding. Actually, the church has been pretty apathetic for years & has let many bad things happen without taking a stand.

Yes, see above paragraph.

 

Who do you see fighting abortion? Who stopped the Salem Witch Trials? (the CHURCH, ex Increase Mather).... Did you know this??

Yes actually, I did. :)

 

Several Christians did! They stepped in to stop the madness when the civil courts refused to do it correctly.

Again, you seem to think I am attacking Christians. I'm not. And I certainly don't think all Christians are bad! I'm actually married to one. :D Again, my point was only that bad (and good) things have been perpetrated throughout history by many religions. I don't think any one is better/worse than the other.

 

BTW.... someone prior had refered to evil deeds of Christians (which witch trials dont' really fit that description) refered to 1000s of witches dying. There were people accused of witchcraft burned at the stake in Europe. That is a superstitious practice used (especially in medieval times) by Christians and nonChristians. Not here. It has never been considered by most to have been right. Superstition & ignorance. Much of this began to stop when the common man began to read the Bible for himself!

 

In the USA, 160 people were accused in Salem trials.... of those, 19 were hanged, 4 died in prison & 1 (a man) was crushed to death by stones. (the man crushed was so caught up in all the mob mentality that he accused his wife.... later, they came for him). The villagers did this... not the Church as a body. This was WAY more complicated than a Church condemning a behavior or sin. Remember, they all pretty much HAD to go to church in those days... doesn't mean they were all humble believers. They were a MOB and were instigated by a few bratty, punk kids out to cover their hide... and parents who believed their children over adults (starting to sound like today's parents). It was superstition and wicked! It was the civil courts that tried & sentenced them (often with little to NO evidence). :001_huh:

 

Thank Goodness, Pastor Mather & others saw the evil of the court system & the evil of the village & fought back.

 

It is a very sad period of colonial history... and made even sadder by the politically correct (anti Christian) teaching of the modern historians.

Nothing to disagree with here, either.

 

As for cultural maladies exacerbated by poverty & lack of education, I would disagree. It is too common in many nations to be beheaded, tortured, mutilated, and go missing without a trace.... not rare or a mob... but the government lead by clerics. Iran (an educated people)??? Saudi Arabia (not a poor nation)?? It is common to hear of missionaries attacked in India, Indonesia... on & on. Very few relegions are tolerant of others, but Christians have always lived among others... even in some of the earliest colonies which were founded for that very reason (NH, PN, NJ are ex)!

I lived in Saudi Arabia for 10 years; I know they are not a poor nation. I don't believe I specifically mentioned them?? And actually-- at least when I was there-- there was a separate religious police (mataween) that took care of implementation and enforcement of religious law. FWIW I have experienced religious intolerance both from Muslims while there, and from Christians while here. (Conversely, I have also experienced deep kindness from both Muslim and Christian friends). I don't think to make a blanket judgement against a religion is fair. I don't think "we" are any better than "them."

 

The Clan & Waco crowd were not Christian. Name them what people will to make the story better... but by the Biblical definition of being LIKE Christ, they do not fit. May be some church goers.... some who joined & were repentant and left... but not a CHRISTIAN group living to worship & serve Christ & serve/love others.

I wasn't calling anyone names. I thought those groups claimed to be Christians...??:confused: Please correct me if I am wrong. I mentioned these only to illustrate how fringe members of a religious group can hijack and twist (or create misconceptions about) an entire religion.

 

This was too long (sorry) but there were so many questions presented & I wanted to try to respond carefully & respectfully to them.

I didn't think it was too long, and I appreciate your thoughts. :)

[Firefly]

can you specify where that idea was put forth? :confused:

 

I was referring to:

 

I do find it interesting how many people reject Christian principles (not rules or laws,etc) in a society (love & help neighbor, give to the poor & needy, don't murder, don't steal, on & on) and attempt to balance them with many other relegions that have absolutely shredded their people & their nations. Poverty (for example) is not the problem in Haiti... it is the result of the problem. I think the same can be said for many places.

 

 

This is how I interpreted the bolded part, but I asked Dirtroad herself for clarification. If I'm wrong I stand corrected.

[Lovedtodeath]

This isn't just directed at Jenn, but anyone who wishes to offer an opinion. It's a sincere question to any and all Christians.

 

The Buddha lived 500 years before the Christ, in a culture far away that knew nothing about the Jewish tradition or God. Is it unfathomable, in Christian theology, that the Buddha could be up in heaven right now chatting with Jesus? He certainly did not reject Jesus, because he never had the chance to know him! What is the Christian view of those people in different times and different cultures who have never been given the opportunity to know Christ?

 

Your question is a good one and not uncommon. My DD asks me about nearly every historical figure we study.

 

I believe that Buddha is in God's memory awaiting resurrection. Jesus Christ stated: “Do not two sparrows sell for a coin of small value? Yet not one of them will fall to the ground without your Father’s knowledge. But the very hairs of your head are all numbered. Therefore have no fear: you are worth more than many sparrows.” (Matthew 10:29-31)

 

Acts 24:15 "and I have hope toward God, which hope these [men] themselves also entertain, that there is going to be a resurrection of both the righteous and the unrighteous"

 

One of God's main attributes is justice. Is it just to destroy people who have had no opportunity to do better? He is a loving Father. Would you severely punish your child for something that they were never taught?

 

also see this link for more on the resurrection.

 

Those posting previously are right about the diversity of thought on heaven. It takes a thorough study to come to one's conclusions in the matter. I do not believe that every follower of Christ goes to heaven, and those that are in heaven now did not necessarily arrive in heaven as soon as they died.. Jesus stated that John the babtizer was not in heaven. When he arrived after Lazarus' death he told his sister that Lazarus would rise. She said that she knew Lazarus would rise, on the last day. Jesus then resurrected Lazarus to earth. Revelation 5:10 speaks of those resurrected to heaven as ruling over the earth. There are scriptures that speak of being adopted as brothers of Christ and of being corulers of the kingdom. There are also scriptures about an earthly hope for some people acceptable to God. Matthew 5:5.

[KingM]

One of God's main attributes is justice. Is it just to destroy people who have had no opportunity to do better? He is a loving Father. Would you severely punish your child for something that they were never taught?

 

 

I had no idea JW's believed thusly. Very interesting information. Thanks.

[HRAAB]

Your question is a good one and not uncommon. My DD asks me about nearly every historical figure we study.

 

I believe that Buddha is in God's memory awaiting resurrection. Jesus Christ stated: “Do not two sparrows sell for a coin of small value? Yet not one of them will fall to the ground without your Father’s knowledge. But the very hairs of your head are all numbered. Therefore have no fear: you are worth more than many sparrows.†(Matthew 10:29-31)

 

Acts 24:15 "and I have hope toward God, which hope these [men] themselves also entertain, that there is going to be a resurrection of both the righteous and the unrighteous"

 

One of God's main attributes is justice. Is it just to destroy people who have had no opportunity to do better? He is a loving Father. Would you severely punish your child for something that they were never taught?

 

also see this link for more on the resurrection.

 

Those posting previously are right about the diversity of thought on heaven. It takes a thorough study to come to one's conclusions in the matter. I do not believe that every follower of Christ goes to heaven, and those that are in heaven now did not necessarily arrive in heaven as soon as they died.. Jesus stated that John the babtizer was not in heaven. When he arrived after Lazarus' death he told his sister that Lazarus would rise. She said that she knew Lazarus would rise, on the last day. Jesus then resurrected Lazarus to earth. Revelation 5:10 speaks of those resurrected to heaven as ruling over the earth. There are scriptures that speak of being adopted as brothers of Christ and of being corulers of the kingdom. There are also scriptures about an earthly hope for some people acceptable to God. Matthew 5:5.

 

Thank you for this reply. This is more along the lines of my own belief. Whether Buddha is now in heaven or still awaiting heaven, I don't know. But that he would have the same chance as me, I definitely do believe. Of all God's attributes, that He is a just God, God's justice, not man's, is primary for me.

 

Janet