Dd's friend has taken the

[Lovedtodeath]

But Paul wrote to "not eat with such a man". It is a delicate balance to know which principle to apply when. By freely forgiving any manner of offense immediately regardless of circumstances, then we are allowing, and/or accepting and in that way condoning the sin.

[Orthodox6]

Not in the slightest.

 

. By freely forgiving any manner of offense immediately regardless of circumstances, then we are allowing, and/or accepting and in that way condoning the sin.

[Lovedtodeath]

Then what is your viewpoint as to why Paul told us to cast people out of the congregation? To refuse to eat with them?

[Melinda in VT]

But Paul wrote to "not eat with such a man". It is a delicate balance to know which principle to apply when. By freely forgiving any manner of offense immediately regardless of circumstances, then we are allowing, and/or accepting and in that way condoning the sin.

 

*asking gently* Doesn't this contradict the example Jesus set in his life?

 

(I'm not trying to trip you up, just interested in how you think about this. I frequently struggle with Paul's writings, so I'm always looking for ways to reconcile things.)

[Lovedtodeath]

Jesus did not immediately forgive everyone. He has the ability to see motives and we do not. He also condemned people. I am on here b/c health problems are not permitting me to do much else today. I will try and look up specific examples for you at a later time.

 

I have struggled with Paul's writings as well. Sometimes these things take a lot of research and holy spirit.:grouphug:

[OnTheBrink]

I think a component we're missing here is repentance. I can understand not wanting to allow someone in your home who's aborted (or murdered) and couldn't care less that they did so. I don't understand not allowing someone in your home who has repented of such an act. In God's eyes, it's all equal. One person's abortion/murder is another's white lie.

 

Jesus was about love, yes, but His love didn't condone sin. He told people to repent of their sins. He did that out of love. He never told anyone, "Hey, if you want to continue in your sinful ways, it's ok by me! I love ya!"

[Orthodox6]

This is the best way that I know to answer the question put to me about an isolated Bible passage. I don't have time to research the patristic commentaries, which would be the proper method. So these are just two general articles on judging others, which is what I think was the drift being discussed. (as best as I could understand some of the directions taken by the thread)

 

http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/praxis/dorotheos_judging.aspx?nogoogle

 

http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/praxis/judging.aspx

 

This is the worldview within which I live. (This is not to claim that I am a good example of the faith, for I am not. I sin all the time, and pray for God's mercy.)

Edited July 23, 2009 by Orthodox6

[Greta]

So these are just two general articles on judging others, which is what I think was the drift being discussed. (as best as I could understand some of the directions taken by the thread)

 

I just wanted to thank you for the links. I have not read them yet, but I intend to after posting this. This is an issue of great interest to me.

 

On the one hand, I certainly can see how it is far, FAR easier to forgive someone if they have repented, and much harder to forgive someone if they do not even feel what they did was wrong. But the fact that it is easier and more natural to us, of course, doesn't necessarily make it right.

 

I am not a Christian, but I have recently had more of an interest in Christianity (and have even, much to my own shock, been reading the New Testament and attending a church). And one of the things that is the most striking to me in the entire Christian tradition, is that when Jesus was being nailed to the cross, he said "Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do."

 

Obviously HIS forgiveness was not dependent upon repentance. He was forgiving the people who were killing him as they were doing it! That is one of the miracles of his story, as far as I am concerned. As much as the healings and the resurrections, that tells me that this man was Divine. He had transcended human limitations, desires for revenge and punishment, and instead loved and forgave completely and perfectly.

 

Sorry if I am gushing a bit, and definitely getting away from the topic at hand. I'm certainly not trying to claim that I am capable of the kind of complete and perfect forgiveness of the Christ. But in the case of this young woman, I don't know, it just isn't easy for me to condemn her, as much as I do believe what she did was wrong. I guess I feel that I can condemn her action while still having compassion for her. I really do see her as a victim in this situation too. Right now, she is young, she was afraid, she took the easy way out. Some day down the road that choice is in all likelihood going to haunt her, and she is going to pay very dearly for what she has done. That thought does not make me happy, or make me feel like justice will be done to her. It makes me very sad.

[Lovedtodeath]

But in the case of this young woman, I don't know, it just isn't easy for me to condemn her, as much as I do believe what she did was wrong. I guess I feel that I can condemn her action while still having compassion for her. I really do see her as a victim in this situation too. Right now, she is young, she was afraid, she took the easy way out. Some day down the road that choice is in all likelihood going to haunt her, and she is going to pay very dearly for what she has done. That thought does not make me happy, or make me feel like justice will be done to her. It makes me very sad.

:iagree:Yes you see that right, I agree.

 

I still state that we need to have some sort of boundary or we are just accepting serious sin and allowing it within our mist. I don't think that all sins are equal. God can read the heart and he knows if someone who continually tells white lies, or slanders, or steals, or has an abortion is doing so out of bad motive. We can't. As I stated earlier, it is a complex issue.

[Greta]

I still state that we need to have some sort of boundary or we are just accepting serious sin and allowing it within our mist.

 

I think I understand what you're getting at. I hear the phrase "love the sinner, hate the sin" a lot. But I guess the question becomes, exactly how does one do that?

[KidsHappen]

I will not engage in the abortion discussion but I do want to say that I am so terribly sorry for everyone involved. It is so very difficult to deal with these issues in our lives. Bless you and your dd for being there and trying to help. :grouphug:

[Lovedtodeath]

 

I think I understand what you're getting at. I hear the phrase "love the sinner, hate the sin" a lot. But I guess the question becomes, exactly how does one do that?

Thanks. I am going to look into it more and be back after DH is in bed.:seeya:

[Orthodox6]

This is a tremendously tall order, to use that phrase. When we see another person as God sees him, then we are able to do exactly that -- love the sinner, yet hate the sin.

 

For most of us, perhaps the closest example which rings true is our love for our children. A child can follow the most wayward path imaginable, but we continue to love that child -- because she or he is our own child. In that same way, but in crystal-clear, unsullied love, so does God love every person who ever lived on earth, or who ever shall live on earth. The worst sinner on earth still is God's beloved child.

 

(In order to understand some of what I am saying, you would have to be a little familiar with Orthodox Christian teaching on hell. God does not send individuals to hell; individuals place themselves there. To place oneself in Hell is to consciously reject the presence and grace of God. Hell is very real. It just is not a place to which God does the dispatching.)

 

I think I understand what you're getting at. I hear the phrase "love the sinner, hate the sin" a lot. But I guess the question becomes, exactly how does one do that?

[HeatherLynn]

But if everyone in their past had reacted they way you are currently reacting I doubt they would have ever become the sort of person you would want to be friends with.

 

Condoning and forgiving are not necessarily the same.

 

Actually, I don't know how others treated them. Two are my best friends and one had an abortion at 16 and NO ONE other than her parents knew. She has just recently came forward with it. She says a day doesn't go by that she doesn't grieve the baby she killed. The other was 21 and she is adamantly against abortion. She even speaks out about how it messed up her life far more than keeping the child ever would have. No matter what their viewpoint then, this is their viewpoint now.

 

You know, I wouldn't bring a known drug abuser into my home or allow my children to associate with them either. It's about choices we make that we feel are best for our family, not judging.

 

I wish this whole nation would be a lot less understanding and less kind to girls and women who kill their babies out of convenience! We may have a cure for cancer or any of hundreds of other things if all these minds hadn't been taken away from us out of selfishness.

 

I have done things I should not have, I am blessed that there are those who accept me with my faults, but I didn't go this week and kill my child. I would expect to be shunned if I had done so.

[Greta]

For most of us, perhaps the closest example which rings true is our love for our children.

 

I think that is a lovely point. No matter what my daughter might do in her life, even something horrible, I will absolutely always love her. Now if I, faulty little human that I am, can love her that much, then God's perfect, divine love for all of us must be so much greater.

 

Thank you again for your comments. This thread really had me down but now I am actually feeling uplifted.

[Greta]

I wish this whole nation would be a lot less understanding and less kind to girls and women who kill their babies out of convenience!

 

Okay, well I was feeling more uplifted. Should have quit reading while I was ahead.

[tricia]

So very sad.:grouphug:

[Mommy22alyns]

That is so sad. I don't think I could welcome her into my home anymore. What she did is not okay.

 

I wouldn't stay friends with anyone who molested a child and killing one is no better in my eyes.

 

 

Ouch. :sad:

 

Do you do background checks on all your friends? Honestly. People do things, people make mistakes, people learn and grow and change. And I just can't make a comparison between continual molesters, continual drug users, and someone who had a bear of a decision to make and chose one with which you disagree. If she does this every week, then yeah I'd start to wonder. Are you friends with anyone who made a mistake ONCE?

 

This just saddens me and is indicative of the attitude that puts off a lot of people.

[TeacherZee]

 

I am learning that KingM is much more complex than I originally thought. Being a Christian far from the mainstream, I can understand the hurt feelings when one is misunderstood. I want to offer my apologies for assuming things. :)

 

I think if you (and I am kinda using you in the general sense here) listened to the pro-choice side you would find that most people there find every abortion to be a tragedy. A tragedy that could have been avoided. I certainly feel that way every time I hear of an abortion. I know I would rather see teenagers abstain as a first resort and if that is not an option for them to use other forms of birth control. I would love for there to be no abortions because people used other forms of birth control whether it be NFP or BC or something else if for some reason they are not ready to have children/grow their family.

[HRAAB]

When I was in my early 20's, my best friend had an abortion. I did not know about it until after it was done as she waited several months to tell me. In a way, I wish she hadn't told me because it did change the dynamics of our friendship. I viewed her differently after I became aware of the abortion. We still remained friends, and I vowed I would not cease to be her friend, but nonetheless, I did feel different towards her. That probably says negative things about me, but it's the truth. I was young and had very noble ideas and had very definite lines drawn.

 

I'm much older now, life is much more complex, I see how so many things enter into a person's decision making process. I can view her position with much more compassion now than I could when I was younger. I do not approve of abortion, and I am not condoning her decision. Just that I can feel with her more than I did before. Separating the person from the action is incredibly hard, and I am not sure it is humanly possible. But I will continue to try to do that.

 

I know that if my dd chose that path, she would still be welcome in my home with love. There would be no condoning of her decision, I would be terribly hurt, but I would still love her. If Christ is the perfect example of love, is that not what Christians should be trying to emulate. Aren't we to be the hands, feet and voice of Christ. Christ would never condone that behavior or excuse it, but neither would he turn them out. Anyway, that's how I view Christ - speaking the truth loudly and consistently, but with love and compassion. Isn't that how Christians bring people to accept Christ, by living his love here on earth.

 

Janet

Edited July 23, 2009 by Ishki
Bad wording....

[Christy B]

I do not desire to debate the abortion issue, but I do want to chime in my two cents on the "Paul said not to eat with them" line of thinking, and how my understanding of the passage applies to the situation at hand:

 

1. Yes, Paul instructed *believers* not to have *Christian fellowship* with people who professed to be Christians but lived in deliberate, continual, known sin. Does the young lady in question even make a profession of faith? If not, then I'm not sure how Paul's instructions could apply.

 

2. Paul's instructions, I believe, were in the context of a formal church membership setting. The question of continued friendship between these two young ladies and the OP is not a question of church fellowship. (There may be reasons to be concerned about a continued friendship, as there may be reasons that a friendship could be a true ministry; I'm not arguing that point, that's for a parent to decide.) Again, I don't know that Paul's instructions really apply outside of a church situation. I would think that instead, the behavior that Jesus modeled would be more applicable in this situation. I'm thinking specifically of His kindness to the woman at the well -- He knew *exactly* what she had done, and He did not reject her.

 

3. The young lady in question has apparently been instructed and informed by the authority figures in her life that abortion was an acceptable alternative for her. I think it's worth pondering how we would feel if the situation were reversed. If my dd became pregnant, and her friend and her friend's mom advised her to have an abortion, how would I feel? Maybe they really and truly love my dd, have nothing but the best intentions for her, and are genuinely and sincerely concerned about her long-term well-being; and they are *convinced* that an abortion is the best choice for her. I would be angry that they had contradicted the values that I had taught my daughter. My daughter would be confused at conflicting information from respected authority figures in her life. And, I think my daughter would ultimately be most comfortable making a decision that reflected the world view with which she had been raised.

 

See my point? We have to be careful to remember that it's not just a difference of opinion -- it's a whole different understanding of the nature of life, of the existence of an absolute moral truth . . . you get the idea. I've read the phrase "I just don't understand" several times in this thread; I think it's so difficult, but we somehow have to wrap our brains around the fact that the sentiment works both ways. The difference in understanding is not with malicious intent; it's just often insurmountable. At that point, I think the only thing left to do is to continue to humbly try to live in a way that reflects the love of God, and leave the rest to Him. I am the first to say I have a LONG way to go in learning how that works.

[Lovedtodeath]

I do not desire to debate the abortion issue, but I do want to chime in my two cents on the "Paul said not to eat with them" line of thinking, and how my understanding of the passage applies to the situation at hand:

 

1. Yes, Paul instructed *believers* not to have *Christian fellowship* with people who professed to be Christians but lived in deliberate, continual, known sin. Does the young lady in question even make a profession of faith? If not, then I'm not sure how Paul's instructions could apply.

 

2. Paul's instructions, I believe, were in the context of a formal church membership setting. The question of continued friendship between these two young ladies and the OP is not a question of church fellowship. (There may be reasons to be concerned about a continued friendship, as there may be reasons that a friendship could be a true ministry; I'm not arguing that point, that's for a parent to decide.) Again, I don't know that Paul's instructions really apply outside of a church situation. I would think that instead, the behavior that Jesus modeled would be more applicable in this situation. I'm thinking specifically of His kindness to the woman at the well -- He knew *exactly* what she had done, and He did not reject her.

 

3. The young lady in question has apparently been instructed and informed by the authority figures in her life that abortion was an acceptable alternative for her. I think it's worth pondering how we would feel if the situation were reversed. If my dd became pregnant, and her friend and her friend's mom advised her to have an abortion, how would I feel? Maybe they really and truly love my dd, have nothing but the best intentions for her, and are genuinely and sincerely concerned about her long-term well-being; and they are *convinced* that an abortion is the best choice for her. I would be angry that they had contradicted the values that I had taught my daughter. My daughter would be confused at conflicting information from respected authority figures in her life. And, I think my daughter would ultimately be most comfortable making a decision that reflected the world view with which she had been raised.

 

See my point? We have to be careful to remember that it's not just a difference of opinion -- it's a whole different understanding of the nature of life, of the existence of an absolute moral truth . . . you get the idea. I've read the phrase "I just don't understand" several times in this thread; I think it's so difficult, but we somehow have to wrap our brains around the fact that the sentiment works both ways. The difference in understanding is not with malicious intent; it's just often insurmountable. At that point, I think the only thing left to do is to continue to humbly try to live in a way that reflects the love of God, and leave the rest to Him. I am the first to say I have a LONG way to go in learning how that works.

Wonderful! I am still looking into the belief that Jesus did not condemn people. Want to be able to word it correctly, etc... but it doesn't mean that I think it applies to the OP.

[BMW]

Thank you, Christy, I was going to take time to post what you did... in my own words, but meaning the very same thing. We cannot treat/feel towards to unsaved the way we do the saved. Whole different ball game. Dd's friend has not been raised in a Christian home, she is not a Christian and cannot be held to Christian standards.

[kalanamak]

T Dd's friend has not been raised in a Christian home, she is not a Christian and cannot be held to Christian standards.

 

Well, regardless, let us hope for her to be more circumspect after this experience.

:grouphug:

[Lovedtodeath]

To the question of whether Christ would condemn someone or turn them out, it does not apply to the OP, so I am doing a S/O

Christ would never condone that behavior or excuse it, but neither would he turn them out.

Edited July 24, 2009 by Lovedtodeath

[Liz CA]

Way to go for being such a caring Mom and mentor. Remind your dd that people do all sorts of things they would never normally consider when in Crisis Mode. I pray you will find mercy in your heart for this young friend. Be sure to talk to your daughter about signs of depression, which may come up later when reality hits this young woman. I hope that this will be a wake-up call for the friend to get on a better path.

 

How very sad for all involved.

 

As hard as it is to accept her decision, I can't help feeling sorry for her as well. Her little one is in heaven but she'll have to live with this decision for the rest of her earthly life.

[wheezie]

I haven't read all of the posts yet, but now is the time for you to *really* show Christ's love to her. Just love her, no matter how hard it is for you to do, no matter how much you disagree w/ her decision. Trust me, she will remember that out of everyone involved, you and your dd are the ones that truly loved *her*, no matter how much you disagree w/ her decision.

 

:grouphug:

[lionfamily1999]

But Paul wrote to "not eat with such a man". It is a delicate balance to know which principle to apply when. By freely forgiving any manner of offense immediately regardless of circumstances, then we are allowing, and/or accepting and in that way condoning the sin.

Doesn't that mean, you love them, but you don't wallow in them. IOW, love everyone, but if someone is doing something wrong you remove yourself from them. I have neighbors that drink around the clock, I don't condem them, I'm not rude to them and I DO love them. However, I don't go out with them, I don't invite them to my home and when they come over to borrow things, we sit on the porch. I love them, I wish they would go into treatment, but until they do, I have to love them from a distance because it's not good for me or my family to be around that.

 

 

If my dd became pregnant, and her friend and her friend's mom advised her to have an abortion, how would I feel? Maybe they really and truly love my dd, have nothing but the best intentions for her, and are genuinely and sincerely concerned about her long-term well-being; and they are *convinced* that an abortion is the best choice for her. I would be angry that they had contradicted the values that I had taught my daughter. My daughter would be confused at conflicting information from respected authority figures in her life. And, I think my daughter would ultimately be most comfortable making a decision that reflected the world view with which she had been raised.

 

See my point? We have to be careful to remember that it's not just a difference of opinion -- it's a whole different understanding of the nature of life, of the existence of an absolute moral truth . . . you get the idea. I've read the phrase "I just don't understand" several times in this thread; I think it's so difficult, but we somehow have to wrap our brains around the fact that the sentiment works both ways. The difference in understanding is not with malicious intent; it's just often insurmountable. At that point, I think the only thing left to do is to continue to humbly try to live in a way that reflects the love of God, and leave the rest to Him. I am the first to say I have a LONG way to go in learning how that works.

I would be absolutely livid. That "friendship" would be over, without question.

 

Your follow-up does make me want to rethink things, but really, no, that friendship would be completely over.

 

I understand, it's in how you're raised to look at things.

[MeanestMomInMidwest]

Why would one take an unwed mother into one's home, yet not the woman who has had an abortion? Isn't showing support to unwed mothers condoning the "sin" of premarital sex, just as giving any support (emotional, financial, charitable) to a woman who has had an abortion condoning the "sin" of abortion?

 

I don't understand why one "sinner" is basically celebrated and one "sinner" is shunned.

[Quiver0f10]

Ummmm no....they are not available everywhere and they are certainly not free, nor is it easy. As a married woman, with a medical history that makes another pregnancy lethal in my case, it took three months and four office visits to get a script written....then I had to find a pharmacy that would fill it....the last pharmacist to have the script ripped it in half and gave me a pro-life lecture. Yeah, pro-life....the life I'm trying to protect at this point is my own and my roll as a mom to the kid I already have....but I digress. There are places in the US where women's healthcare is sorely lacking. Yes, I'm sad for the girl's outcome, but the real tragedy happened well before conception.

 

As far as I know almost every state if not every state has planned parenthod type places that give out free contraceptives.

[lionfamily1999]

Why would one take an unwed mother into one's home, yet not the woman who has had an abortion? Isn't showing support to unwed mothers condoning the "sin" of premarital sex, just as giving any support (emotional, financial, charitable) to a woman who has had an abortion condoning the "sin" of abortion?

 

I don't understand why one "sinner" is basically celebrated and one "sinner" is shunned.

You have a point, there. In one case, single mother, you would have to assume they've moved away from their sin, repented, until you could "know" otherwise. On the other hand, the woman who had an abortion that refuses to see the wrongness (for lack of a better word) in their actions and refuses to repent (as is used in most of the examples I've read), is someone standing behind their sin.

 

IOW, unwed mother decides to shack up, or strip or prostitute or something, it's different. She probably would not be as welcome. If she's bragging about her sex life, again, not as welcome. Unwed mother who "sees the error of her ways" and turns from it, well, fully accepted, right, because we have to forgive and forget, especially if they've returned to the right path. Woman who got abortion and sees nothing wrong with it, demands it was the right thing to do, not so welcome. Woman who got abortion and repents, again "sees the error of her ways," very welcome.

 

ETA, imho.

[MeanestMomInMidwest]

You have a point, there. In one case, single mother, you would have to assume they've moved away from their sin, repented, until you could "know" otherwise. On the other hand, the woman who had an abortion that refuses to see the wrongness (for lack of a better word) in their actions and refuses to repent (as is used in most of the examples I've read), is someone standing behind their sin.

 

IOW, unwed mother decides to shack up, or strip or prostitute or something, it's different. She probably would not be as welcome. If she's bragging about her sex life, again, not as welcome. Unwed mother who "sees the error of her ways" and turns from it, well, fully accepted, right, because we have to forgive and forget, especially if they've returned to the right path. Woman who got abortion and sees nothing wrong with it, demands it was the right thing to do, not so welcome. Woman who got abortion and repents, again "sees the error of her ways," very welcome.

 

ETA, imho.

 

So as long as their outward actions reflect what you (as in the general, you - xian society you) deem acceptable, its okay? Or if they're good at hiding unacceptable actions, like, for instance the boyfriend who has no social consequences whatsoever?

 

How about the woman who has the child, and does not regret it? Or is she suppposed to live in a state of regret for her sexual sin?

 

I just don't get the mindset of helping or not helping people based on what is perceived as sinful behavior, and it just seems as if some "sins" are worse than others in the eyes of some posters here (not necessarily you, lionfamily, I just quoted you for the sake of convenience).

 

I feel compelled to help those need it, and feel as if I'll be internally satisfied for my act of helping. After I've helped, or offered help, I've done my part. My responsibility ends there, it does not continue on to compel me to force the person I've helped into a certain lifestyle or to make sure my gift of help is rewarded by an acceptance of my belief system.

 

I guess I'm somewhat inarticulately trying to figure out how certain xians are expressing the love of their god through their actions and words. Does god only help/reward/show love to those who first conform to a certain set of regulations or somehow make themselves more worthy of god's positive attention?

[lionfamily1999]

ETA: I realized I only expounded on my earlier post, so I'll answer your questions, sorry about that!

 

So as long as their outward actions reflect what you (as in the general, you - xian society you) deem acceptable, its okay? Yes and no. Imo, you have to take people at face value, until you learn otherwise. IOW, if someone said they had stopped being a sinner of a particular sort, I would have to take them at their word, until I found out they had lied. Or if they're good at hiding unacceptable actions, like, for instance the boyfriend who has no social consequences whatsoever? Boyfriends can only hide behind their girlfriends, and only for so long. I'm not psychic, so unfortuneatly, yes, if they're exceptionally good at hiding it, then I'll have to take them at face value. The Bible said trees are known by their fruits, so the assumption is, you can only hide so long, before it what you're hiding becomes apparent by the fruits it yields.

 

How about the woman who has the child, and does not regret it? I don't regret my dd. I DO regret having put her into a situation where her "real" father is so lost. I regret having been so foolish, but I never regret my dd. This is not the scarlet letter and no one is stoning Pearl. Or is she suppposed to live in a state of regret for her sexual sin? Not at all! God forgives, Jesus' blood washes away the sin. You move on and move forward, on the right path, knowing that your past is forgiven. Seems counter to my regrets, but then the results of that pop up so often.

 

I just don't get the mindset of helping or not helping people based on what is perceived as sinful behavior, and it just seems as if some "sins" are worse than others in the eyes of some posters here (not necessarily you, lionfamily, I just quoted you for the sake of convenience). I agree, it does seem like some sins are considered "worse," but that does not make it right. We're not supposed to help someone based on their circumstances or the circumstances of their soulds, but HOW we help them may be different. I might not give CASH to someone with an addiction issue, but I will give them food or shade or water.

 

I feel compelled to help those need it, and feel as if I'll be internally satisfied for my act of helping. After I've helped, or offered help, I've done my part. My responsibility ends there, it does not continue on to compel me to force the person I've helped into a certain lifestyle or to make sure my gift of help is rewarded by an acceptance of my belief system.

And it shouldn't. The idea is to get people to see the beauty and love God has for them through us. God is not going to chase you down, He doesn't have to, and neither do we :)

 

I guess I'm somewhat inarticulately trying to figure out how certain xians are expressing the love of their god through their actions and words. Does god only help/reward/show love to those who first conform to a certain set of regulations or somehow make themselves more worthy of god's positive attention?

That's the opposite of how, from what I understand, it's supposed to work. The help is supposed to be the light that leads them to God, not a foot in the door so you can barrage them with it. IOW, The Angel Food Ministry is done out of a church. They sing the praises of God while they hand out the food, they OFFER help and minstrations, they offer prayer and the word of God. They bless you when you come and they bless you when you leave. At no point do they FORCE you to conform to their beliefs, only to see that it is their beliefs that has led them help you. IOW, I'm doing this because it's what God wants, look at me and how joyful I am in what I do, look while I take what you fling at me and continue to help, do you wonder why? Do you wonder what keeps me in this state of joyful giving? Do you want to know why I care about you? If you ask, then I will tell you.

 

 

sorry again for having ignored your questions initially.

 

I'm not saying not to offer help. There's a difference between loving and offering help, and accepting a sinful lifestyle or bringing someone into your family. IOW, I would not turn away a vocally pro-choice person who needed something, nor would I chuck them out of my car if I was giving them a ride. I WOULD refuse to drive them to an abortion clinic and refuse them a forum in my home to tout their beliefs.

 

I think, maybe, you're missing the greys here. IOW, I do not have to allow someone into my FAMILY, I do have to love them, but I do not have to give them a platform. I do have to pray for them, but I do not have to give them shelter in my home if they are not willing to conform to the house rules.

 

Let me see if I can put this another way. A person is hungry, so I feed them. They are full and they decide they want to watch porn on my t.v. set. Well, I do not have to let them do that. A person is thirsty and I give them water. They're an alcoholic and water does not quench their thirst, I do not have to buy them liquor or wine. A person is ill and I have to pray for them and minister to them, but I do not have to call a shaman or witch doctor, if that is what they believe in. A person is in need of shelter and I give them a room, but I do not have to allow them to have their s.o., contrary to the teachings of God, in that room. I can love a homosexual, but refuse to entertain their arguments for their life style, as well as refuse to allow them pda in my house. I can love a sinner and refuse to allow them to tout their sin over my table. Is that easier to understand?

 

You always love them, but you do not have to entertain them in their folly.

Edited July 24, 2009 by lionfamily1999

[HeatherLynn]

I think a component we're missing here is repentance. I can understand not wanting to allow someone in your home who's aborted (or murdered) and couldn't care less that they did so. I don't understand not allowing someone in your home who has repented of such an act. In God's eyes, it's all equal. One person's abortion/murder is another's white lie.

 

Jesus was about love, yes, but His love didn't condone sin. He told people to repent of their sins. He did that out of love. He never told anyone, "Hey, if you want to continue in your sinful ways, it's ok by me! I love ya!"

 

This is where I am coming from, and like the way you said it. It's not the act in itself, it is the attitude toward the act.

[HeatherLynn]

Why would one take an unwed mother into one's home, yet not the woman who has had an abortion? Isn't showing support to unwed mothers condoning the "sin" of premarital sex, just as giving any support (emotional, financial, charitable) to a woman who has had an abortion condoning the "sin" of abortion?

 

I don't understand why one "sinner" is basically celebrated and one "sinner" is shunned.

 

Well, this is the way I see this: I am supporting my pro-life view by supporting a single Mom who is going to stand up and take responsibility for her actions and give the child LIFE. I support those who do not murder babies. I do not support those who do and have an un-remorseful attitude towards what they have done. It is not about the sin in itself, it is about the regard of innocent human life.

 

Jesus DID tell the evil to get away from him, by the way.

[lionfamily1999]

Well, this is the way I see this: I am supporting my pro-life view by supporting a single Mom who is going to stand up and take responsibility for her actions and give the child LIFE. I support those who do not murder babies. I do not support those who do and have an un-remorseful attitude towards what they have done. It is not about the sin in itself, it is about the regard of innocent human life.

 

Jesus DID tell the evil to get away from him, by the way.

The mean and spiteful part of me says, she got the abortion so she wouldn't have the responsibility, well, then her life should be great now, on her own, why would she need my help?

 

As for the unwed mother... well... there are caveats here, for me. I've known girls that did not turn away. They kept their babies and good for them, but at what point do you let them see the results of their actions. Baby number two, three, four??? At what point do you let them fall and fall hard, so they'll see WHY they need to turn away.

 

The lady's right, in that, sin is sin and either way, if they haven't seen the error and turned from it, I can't see enabling them to continue.

[Tami]

I doubt that money, condoms, or morning after pills will solve this problem. Teens spend more money on jeans and cell phones than ever! Also Planned Parenthood passes out contraception for free all over the US. Condoms have to be actually USED, 100% of the time, and morning after pills assume that the girl is not immature and in complete DENIAL. The teen brain is not fully mature, and they often do things based on what will provide the most excitement and pleasure NOW. Teens are very impulsive, and I bet many don't plan to have sex, but one thing leads to another and before ya know it.... As long as there are teens that are together unsupervised, there are going to be lots of teen pregnancies.

 

Even with the best of supervision, the best of resources there are going to be those who are going to do what they want to do, without really thinking through the consequences. No simple answers here, and an unplanned pregnancy is a tragedy for all involved. The inconvenient truth of abortion is that it takes a human life and takes it violently. A life with possibilities and potential. As a former fetus, and as a baby born to an unwed mother, I am thankful my mother did not end my life due to her difficult circumstances.

 

I imagine that many have never seen an abortion, and if you haven't, I'd challenge you to take a look at one viewed via ultrasound. Take a look at the POC, or products of conception produce with each abortion. POC is a eupemism for counting body parts to make sure they have all been expelled. I had a nurse-friend who had this job of verifying POC a few times, and it changed her and haunted her. Denial is the bliss of those who hide in it.

 

I also wonder how many have dealt with post-abortive women, or who have given a crying post-abortive woman a ride home from the clinic weeping so hard your heart aches for them, but there is no comfort because their child is dead and there are just no words that will comfort them? If you are pro-choice, what do you do for those who are damaged by abortion?

 

Sad situation all around.

[MeanestMomInMidwest]

Well, this is the way I see this: I am supporting my pro-life view by supporting a single Mom who is going to stand up and take responsibility for her actions and give the child LIFE. I support those who do not murder babies. I do not support those who do and have an un-remorseful attitude towards what they have done. It is not about the sin in itself, it is about the regard of innocent human life.

 

Jesus DID tell the evil to get away from him, by the way.

 

So you don't view supporting the single mother as supporting premarital sex? Just as supporting your anti-abortion views? And you view any help given to a woman who has an abortion as supporting not only premarital sex, but also abortion? I am not trying to be rude, just trying to understand the logic, really.

 

In what way is becoming a single mother unable to support herself or her child without outside help "standing up and taking responsibility for her actions" assuming the "action" she is "taking responsibility" for is sex outside of marriage.

[HeatherLynn]

So you don't view supporting the single mother as supporting premarital sex? Just as supporting your anti-abortion views? And you view any help given to a woman who has an abortion as supporting not only premarital sex, but also abortion? I am not trying to be rude, just trying to understand the logic, really.

 

In what way is becoming a single mother unable to support herself or her child without outside help "standing up and taking responsibility for her actions" assuming the "action" she is "taking responsibility" for is sex outside of marriage.

 

I do not see it like that, I see it as supporting life. Not all women who abort are unmarried either, btw.

 

Standing up and taking responsibility for her actions is not murdering her baby in order to get rid of the burden it would cause her.

 

Like I said, even though I do have a problem with the Sin of abortion, my abortion views were established LONG before I was a Christian. Sin is sin, and we are all sinners. All that aside, I support life, period. No matter what led to that child being created, I support that child living. If that means contributing to a maternity home, so be it. If that means taking an unwed mother in and helping her get on her feet, done. So really, I do not look at it as supporting pre-marital sex, I look at it as supporting a new life coming into the world.

[MeanestMomInMidwest]

I do not see it like that, I see it as supporting life. Not all women who abort are unmarried either, btw.

 

Standing up and taking responsibility for her actions is not murdering her baby in order to get rid of the burden it would cause her.

 

Like I said, even though I do have a problem with the Sin of abortion, my abortion views were established LONG before I was a Christian. Sin is sin, and we are all sinners. All that aside, I support life, period. No matter what led to that child being created, I support that child living. If that means contributing to a maternity home, so be it. If that means taking an unwed mother in and helping her get on her feet, done. So really, I do not look at it as supporting pre-marital sex, I look at it as supporting a new life coming into the world.

 

Okay, now I understand. Thanks for explaining.

[MeanestMomInMidwest]

The mean and spiteful part of me says, she got the abortion so she wouldn't have the responsibility, well, then her life should be great now, on her own, why would she need my help?

 

As for the unwed mother... well... there are caveats here, for me. I've known girls that did not turn away. They kept their babies and good for them, but at what point do you let them see the results of their actions. Baby number two, three, four??? At what point do you let them fall and fall hard, so they'll see WHY they need to turn away.

 

The lady's right, in that, sin is sin and either way, if they haven't seen the error and turned from it, I can't see enabling them to continue.

 

You have been very patient and thorough in your replies to me, and I apprecaite it.

 

Your first sentence would also apply, then (if you were being snarky) to a woman who chose adoption? After all, no burden, no need for help, right?

I think everyone can agree that no matter what decision a woman makes in the instance of an unwanted pregnancy, there will be some sort of burden.

 

I think whatever choice, it is difficult (as some have already posted). To think that the woman who chooses abortion automatically has lifelong regrets, or is the only one with regrets, is false. Many women who continue a pregnancy whether to raise the child or to have it raised by another, also have lifelong regrets. I don't think any unwanted pregnancy solution is without some regret, and no choice is easy at that point. I hope nobody here thinks any woman faced with this situation makes any choice lightly.

Edited July 24, 2009 by MeanestMomInMidwest

[lionfamily1999]

You have been very patient and thorough in your replies to me, and I apprecaite it.

 

Your first sentence would also apply, then (if you were being snarky) to a woman who chose adoption? After all, no burden, no need for help, right?

I think everyone can agree that no matter what decision a woman makes in the instance of an unwanted pregnancy, there will be some sort of burden.

 

I think whatever choice, it is difficult (as some have already posted). To think that the woman who chooses abortion automatically has lifelong regrets, or is the only one with regrets, is false. Many women who continue a pregnancy whether to raise the child or to have it raised by another, also have lifelong regrets. I don't think any unwanted pregnancy solution is without some regret, and no choice is easy at that point. I hope nobody here thinks any woman faced with this situation makes any choice lightly. I don't think anyone can assume the woman who is not raising the product of an unwanted pregnancy is "burden free."

Not really, but it's because I do believe that abortion is murder and that the decision is based on the idea that they will get to have the same life they had up to that point. Going through a pregnancy and labor and delivery and giving your child away for a better life, that takes more than I have to give. I think out of the three scenerios it is the mother who gives her child away that I would have the most concern and care for. The mother who keeps her child gets to see all the joy and that is comfort.

 

It is based in snark and I know that's not right, I should have as much compassion for one as the others, but there is a part of me that says, you thought you took the easy route, now walk it, alone.

[Impish]

...and of two children. 6 years apart. My mother and grandmother told me to go for an abortion, that I was stupid for keeping the pregnancy, no man would ever want me, I'd be on welfare forever, and "Its been six years, we thought you'd learned your lesson the first time."

 

Well, Diva defeated 4 forms of birth control. God obviously wanted her to be born. I wasn't a slut, I was darn careful, and used birth control to the hilt when I did decide to be intimate with the partner I'd been with.

 

I was raised to believe that s*x was no big deal. My parents told us that they expected us to be s*xually active in our teens. Never was there a discussion of waiting for marriage, and my mother told me flat out that if I got pregnant while in her home, I'd be "going to see Henry (Morgentaller sp the abortion Dr in Toronto)"

 

I was all of 12 when these talks started.

 

Any s*xual morals I have, I earned and learned on my own, as an adult.

 

I feel for this girl. I grew up as she seems to have. I *know* how this goes. Only difference is, I had my kids...but I was out of my parents home when I had my first at 19, and was in my 20s when I had Diva.

[Lovedtodeath]

Impish, Thank you for sharing your story.:grouphug:

[Peek a Boo]

As hard as it is to accept her decision, I can't help feeling sorry for her as well. Her little one is in heaven but she'll have to live with this decision for the rest of her earthly life.

 

Yes. i believe God cries for the loss of the evildoer's soul as much as [if not more than] He cries for the crime perpetrated upon the victim.

 

This is what I find so frustrating about the abortion debate. Why can't both sides continue to argue their points while setting about reducing the rate of unwanted pregnancy before it reaches the point of abortion?

 

plenty do. but are ignored or flatly dismissed.

 

You could reduce the rate of abortion overnight by making sure a woman could walk into any pharmacy and request the morning after pill, no questions asked. Even if you don't like the idea, surely stopping the implantation of a fertilized egg would be better than aborting a 12 week fetus.

 

surely it would seem that way, if indeed you decided the value of a human life based on its age.

I don't.

 

My goal is not to "reduce the number of abortions" --that's gravy and a wonderful side benefit in my perspective. My goal is to see basic human rights extended to ALL humans.

 

I agree. I wish teens were better educated about birth control and had quick, easy ways to get access so that they're not backed into choosing between two unpleasant alternatives.

except that many of us realize that quick, easy ways to get access to birth control tend to LEAD TO choosing between more than a couple unpleasant alternatives. Not much of a solution in my book.

 

...... the legislative solutions proposed by the pro-life movements are based solely on a Xtian perspective and are often incompatible with the approach of my religious tradition. [And, no, Peek, I am not including you as one of the movements.... ;)]

 

:D

yeah....because the legislative solutions I have provided have not had anything to do w/ religion, period, but basic human rights. ;)

which is pretty easy to do --even KingM touches on the issue below:

 

I am still deeply troubled with abortion however, as whether or not a fetus is the same as a human life, an abortion is still an act of violence against something defenseless.

 

science has already determined that the HUMAN fetus is indeed a human life.

 

It's not that we are killing something defenseless [we do that every time we EAT, lol], it's the realization that what we are killing is an innocent human.

 

when we adopted our dog from the SPCA, we needed to take her back in to be spayed. After picking her up, we received the care instructions that explained there was an extra charge because she was either in heat or pregnant [in which case they aborted the puppies.] There is no [huge, public] uproar about killing fetal puppies even tho they would definitely count as "defenseless."

 

I think if you (and I am kinda using you in the general sense here) listened to the pro-choice side you would find that most people there find every abortion to be a tragedy. A tragedy that could have been avoided.

I agree.

The difference between the pro-choice side and the pro-life side is that the pro-choice side is willing to stand behind, defend, and even fight [legislatively] for the right to kill -on demand- a human for convenience w/o legal consequence or due process.

 

That's a big difference.