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There's RightStart. It uses games to reinforce learning and lots of manipulatives. There are minimal worksheets, though most programs do have some form of paper and pencil work. There's also something called Schiller math that is Montessori based but I do not have any experience with it.

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Best summary I've read is at http://www.sandradodd.com/math/

 

 

 

 

 

See, I read things like that article and it rings so true with me. And then I freak out, LOL

My second grader has an LD that prevents her from doing math well on paper, but over all it is her best subject and I can totally see this working for her.

My 4th grader tho worries me. She just doesn't get math in general. Although she hasn't memorized most math facts, she 'gets' addition, but not subtraction at all, and sort of gets multiplication and division, but only as applies to everyday life. Worksheets cause a little bit of panic for her. Also worksheets are something you do just for the sake of doing them, ykwim? Aside from them being a way of learning math facts, they are pointless. She doesn't like doing things that have to real purpose. Does that make sense?

We've tried manipulative based programs, not specifically MUS, and they didn't work for either DD. I'm having a hard time getting excited about MUS, and I'm not sure I can afford it right now.

But like the author of that article, doing worksheets and such is going to kill any love of math they might have had so I'm looking to get a little more creative. It may just come down to me not freaking out about unschooling math :tongue_smilie:

I know a family that unschools, but she's say math is the one thing they don't unschool, they use saxon. How ever she said they didn't do any formal math at all till middle school. Before that it was learning math naturally.

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:iagree::iagree::iagree:

and

:iagree:

 

I've used many of Julie's ideas over the years. I've never been confident enough to go without a curriculum, but I wish that I were "mathy" and creative enough to do so. :)

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What about Math on the Level, which basically tells homeschoolers how to teach what (but not when and no real worksheets). If I thought I were disciplined enough to do the tracking for it, this is what I'd use in a heartbeat. (I was super-impressed at the Cinci convention when I sat down and read it). It would be a bit of work for mom, but she definitely is into teaching math in everyday situations.

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I have a couple of friends that more or less unschool math.

 

One of them uses the games from Rightstart. Her kids are all under the age of ten. I have no idea what she plans to do after Rightstart.

 

The other is just playing, doing real life math, and flashcards with her 10yo/11yo dd. She does plan to move into a textbook at some point. I think after her dd knows her math facts. She also has a 3yo dd. In addition she has two older dss. One will be in college next year on scholarship and one that will be a junior using saxon advanced math. However, I think that both the boys began with Saxon when they were younger than the oldest dd is now. I believe that she is more comfortable the third time around and also that her dd just doesn't gravitate toward math as much as the older two did.

 

Another thought- have you looked at Making Math Meaningful?

 

HTH-

Mandy

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How old are your children? My son hasn't had formal math, but I've looked to see what he should be understanding. Barring an understanding problem, kids can catch up all their math in a few months at an older age. I do read a lot of the books you'll find on the living math site, and he/we play on the abacus, and he does oral math with us and also skip counts from the 1's - 15's. So, that's what we do... BUT, he's only 6. (just yesterday)

 

Carrie

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Have you obtained any outside guidance? (Yes, that is my suggestion.)

 

My dd has severe math disabilities, and now we have the detailed report, which is helping us to figure out how to change our methods and help dd do better with math.

 

I want to be as gentle as I can when saying this . . . LDs and unschooling are not a good combination.

 

Also, there are worksheets for so much more than just basic math facts. (We don't use worksheets for facts practice, but for other things -- sequencing, geometry, word problems, etc.)

 

I hope you can find a specialist with good ideas for helping your dd with the math.

 

 

 

See, I read things like that article and it rings so true with me. And then I freak out, LOL

My second grader has an LD that prevents her from doing math well on paper, but over all it is her best subject and I can totally see this working for her.

My 4th grader tho worries me. She just doesn't get math in general. Although she hasn't memorized most math facts, she 'gets' addition, but not subtraction at all, and sort of gets multiplication and division, but only as applies to everyday life. Worksheets cause a little bit of panic for her. Also worksheets are something you do just for the sake of doing them, ykwim? Aside from them being a way of learning math facts, they are pointless. She doesn't like doing things that have to real purpose. Does that make sense?

We've tried manipulative based programs, not specifically MUS, and they didn't work for either DD. I'm having a hard time getting excited about MUS, and I'm not sure I can afford it right now.

But like the author of that article, doing worksheets and such is going to kill any love of math they might have had so I'm looking to get a little more creative. It may just come down to me not freaking out about unschooling math :tongue_smilie:

I know a family that unschools, but she's say math is the one thing they don't unschool, they use saxon. How ever she said they didn't do any formal math at all till middle school. Before that it was learning math naturally.

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I don't think that I can be of much help as I do not unschool math but I do math with my youngest without using curriculum. Now, she is only starting Gr. 1 so I don't know how long I am going to do this. I am hoping that we can take a living math approach until she is at least in Gr. 4, if not later.

 

I use the living math website and have been very inspired by all that Julie has on that site. We learn math by playing games, reading storybooks and other hands on activities. This seems to be working for my dd. I should also say that she has LDs as well, which is the main reason why I opted to go without curriculum. We are going at her speed and, so far, it is working very well.

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If anyone here unschools math, could you tell me how this works for you? How do you go about it, how do you know it's working?

 

I ask because I'm looking a way to teach math that doesn't use worksheets-- so if anyone has suggestions in that reguard, unschooling or not, I'm all ears :D

 

Well. I honestly have always started this early. Mostly because I like to talk.

So when my baby saw a spider and then another I would say, "Look, (dd). We have one spider here and one spider there. We have two spiders because one and one is two."

 

We counted things all the time as she grew up.

I once said something about ten and she said, "You mean 2 fives?"

 

So she saw things really for what they were. Never as a number looks on a board.

Like you see five things ** *** or they write it on a board like this 5.

It's the difference between really understanding it and just being able to recite it. How you see it in your mind......

 

Anyway. When dd was in 4th grade we started money.

EXCELLENT way to start "formal" math.

Although dd had long collected, sorted, counted, saved, and spent money....

we hadn't covered counting back change.

We went to the bank and got all kinds of coins (even whole and half dollars) and bills. Then we went home and played cash register all summer. My dd can now count back change the propper way. There are adults who can not do this. (So I use this as my bragging rights when some ill informed adult wants to tell me why he thinks my kid is missing something in math).

 

We have been working through Michele's Math and will begin 6th grade in the Fall with Life of Fred Fractions. I think my dd has a beautiful math brain and it's because I let her see things her own way in math and numbers. I love to watch her compute multiplication through addition in her head. 8 X 4....She adds 16 and 16 by putting the 10's together for 20. And then 6 and 6 is 12. For a total of 32.

 

Anyway - there is life all around full of science and math. I started those subjects at birth really! But so many other things I delayed. Like formal grammar. You can find a ton of math in life. Which is why Life of Fred is such a big hit on this board. Make sure your kid really gets money. The dimes and nickels of it. The counting back from $6.35 to $20.00 so you can make change. My bf believes this is why my dd is so smart in math.

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What about Math on the Level, which basically tells homeschoolers how to teach what (but not when and no real worksheets). If I thought I were disciplined enough to do the tracking for it, this is what I'd use in a heartbeat. (I was super-impressed at the Cinci convention when I sat down and read it). It would be a bit of work for mom, but she definitely is into teaching math in everyday situations.

 

I like Math on the Level because the concept chart provides a list to check off so I needn't worry about missing something, and also shows what concepts are prerequisites for other so I can skip about but still make sure I present things in a sensible order when that matters.

 

:)

Rosie

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I'm not sure "how you go about it" and "unschooling" have anything to do with one another. Most conscientious unschoolers would simply allow/encourage real life math and games. So you have the math with grocery shopping, gardening, cooking, various projects. And you can't help but use math when playing Yahtzee, Monopoly, Dominoes, etc. They would trust that the kid would learn the basics they needed through life, interest, or they'll delve in more formally down the line.

 

I largely agree. The chances that a 14yo brought up in an educationally rich environment would not pick up basic K-8 math, at least most of it, would be slim. And when they're ready, they can easily pick up the few gaps left. And many kids might pick up various math learning options if given the chance as there are so many books, websites, etc to learn something specific or even a whole course of study.

 

However, we DID pick up formal math studies before age 14 and it wasn't my children's choice.

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You might try Grayson Wheatley's book as a good starting point. He brings a very refreshing philosophy to teaching math. He's a retired math professor that has studied teaching math to children for a lot of years. He's also had hands on experience. Our math co-op used his ideas for the last five years and we've had success. Some of our members use games to reinforce the concepts while others used everything from Singapore, Miiquong (SP), MUS, Rightstart etc. He really challenges the child to think about what they are doing. You have to develop some patience using his methods because you might only do one problem all day.

 

As a side note one of the early pioneers of homeschooling in our neighborhood taught there child math exclusively with games and particularly cards. Not that I'm advocating that but he did win 1.4 million dollars at the world series of poker last year. So I guess the probability teachings stuck!

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Besides living math.net, which I recommend also, another great book tapped by unschoolers is Family Math. I own it and use it for those down times during the Summer and otherwise, or when I think ds needs to review and reinforce concepts in a fun way and not the way he's led to discover in Miquon or tackle it in MCP.

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I'll be honest in that this question on this board confuses me? Could there be a method MORE opposite of classical education than unschooling?

 

Yes, but unschoolers and anybody else are allowed to post here. She may use other aspects of classical, but unschooling math ;)

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Actually, I'm thinking that it'd be interesting to know how much math was a separate part in true classical learning. Are we sure that it was taught as a singled out subject at an early age? Some of their ideas may truly surprise us.

 

Carrie:-)

(If anyone knows, this is an invite to inform me:-)

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RightStart math games would be a good way to incorporate good fun math without worksheets or a full-blown curric! You could buy the Alabacus manual for ideas on teaching the basics with the abacus, then follow up with games.

 

Miquon Math Lab might be something you like. My ds6 has had some fm delay, and he "answered" most questions with rods early on...still does sometimes.;) Miquon was written with accomodation to young kids who aren't yet writing in mind.

 

I admit, I have a hard time imagining a child unschooling in math .....I am certainly a mom who strives for conceptual understanding over drill.....real life application over worksheets.....BUT, I think most kids will do best with some guidance and a challenge daily.

 

Math on the Level has always tempted me......

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I'm not sure "how you go about it" and "unschooling" have anything to do with one another. Most conscientious unschoolers would simply allow/encourage real life math and games. So you have the math with grocery shopping, gardening, cooking, various projects. And you can't help but use math when playing Yahtzee, Monopoly, Dominoes, etc. They would trust that the kid would learn the basics they needed through life, interest, or they'll delve in more formally down the line.

 

I largely agree. The chances that a 14yo brought up in an educationally rich environment would not pick up basic K-8 math, at least most of it, would be slim. And when they're ready, they can easily pick up the few gaps left. And many kids might pick up various math learning options if given the chance as there are so many books, websites, etc to learn something specific or even a whole course of study.

 

However, we DID pick up formal math studies before age 14 and it wasn't my children's choice.

 

 

Unschooling means so many different things to so many people, that's why I asked how you go about it. ;) Thank you for sharing your view on it.

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Have you obtained any outside guidance? (Yes, that is my suggestion.)

 

My dd has severe math disabilities, and now we have the detailed report, which is helping us to figure out how to change our methods and help dd do better with math.

 

I want to be as gentle as I can when saying this . . . LDs and unschooling are not a good combination.

 

Also, there are worksheets for so much more than just basic math facts. (We don't use worksheets for facts practice, but for other things -- sequencing, geometry, word problems, etc.)

 

I hope you can find a specialist with good ideas for helping your dd with the math.

 

She doesn't have an LD, I don't believe. I would seriously be shocked if she did. She just doesn't get math the way math is taught as a subject. I think it's because it's so out of context. I feel that learning 'real life' math would be more beneficial to her, I just have to rearrange my thinking-- having never been taught that way myself-- and figure out ways to include math in everyday things. So I'm looking for suggestions to creative ways of teaching math to get me started in that direction. :)

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She doesn't have an LD, I don't believe. I would seriously be shocked if she did. She just doesn't get math the way math is taught as a subject. I think it's because it's so out of context. I feel that learning 'real life' math would be more beneficial to her, I just have to rearrange my thinking-- having never been taught that way myself-- and figure out ways to include math in everyday things. So I'm looking for suggestions to creative ways of teaching math to get me started in that direction. :)

 

Miquon Math Labs is a very unconventional math program. If you can get your hands on teh FIrst Grade Diary, I think you will find some gems in there, even if you don't use the curric.

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Well. I honestly have always started this early. Mostly because I like to talk.

So when my baby saw a spider and then another I would say, "Look, (dd). We have one spider here and one spider there. We have two spiders because one and one is two."

 

We counted things all the time as she grew up.

I once said something about ten and she said, "You mean 2 fives?"

 

So she saw things really for what they were. Never as a number looks on a board.

Like you see five things ** *** or they write it on a board like this 5.

It's the difference between really understanding it and just being able to recite it. How you see it in your mind......

 

Anyway. When dd was in 4th grade we started money.

EXCELLENT way to start "formal" math.

Although dd had long collected, sorted, counted, saved, and spent money....

we hadn't covered counting back change.

We went to the bank and got all kinds of coins (even whole and half dollars) and bills. Then we went home and played cash register all summer. My dd can now count back change the propper way. There are adults who can not do this. (So I use this as my bragging rights when some ill informed adult wants to tell me why he thinks my kid is missing something in math).

 

We have been working through Michele's Math and will begin 6th grade in the Fall with Life of Fred Fractions. I think my dd has a beautiful math brain and it's because I let her see things her own way in math and numbers. I love to watch her compute multiplication through addition in her head. 8 X 4....She adds 16 and 16 by putting the 10's together for 20. And then 6 and 6 is 12. For a total of 32.

 

Anyway - there is life all around full of science and math. I started those subjects at birth really! But so many other things I delayed. Like formal grammar. You can find a ton of math in life. Which is why Life of Fred is such a big hit on this board. Make sure your kid really gets money. The dimes and nickels of it. The counting back from $6.35 to $20.00 so you can make change. My bf believes this is why my dd is so smart in math.

 

Thank you for sharing! I had been considering getting the kids a bunch of change and pricing everything in the house. Charge them for meals, or watching TV, or whatever.

I like how you started it with your kids so young. I'll make a mindfull effort to do that with my baby as well as my girls. I do something like that with words with him now, I don't know why I never considered working math in that way too. :001_smile:

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You might try Grayson Wheatley's book as a good starting point. He brings a very refreshing philosophy to teaching math. He's a retired math professor that has studied teaching math to children for a lot of years. He's also had hands on experience. Our math co-op used his ideas for the last five years and we've had success. Some of our members use games to reinforce the concepts while others used everything from Singapore, Miiquong (SP), MUS, Rightstart etc. He really challenges the child to think about what they are doing. You have to develop some patience using his methods because you might only do one problem all day.

 

As a side note one of the early pioneers of homeschooling in our neighborhood taught there child math exclusively with games and particularly cards. Not that I'm advocating that but he did win 1.4 million dollars at the world series of poker last year. So I guess the probability teachings stuck!

 

Thanks, I'll check it out. Games are a really great way for learning lots of things, I can see playing cards as a good way for learning math. Sounds like fun!

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Besides living math.net, which I recommend also, another great book tapped by unschoolers is Family Math. I own it and use it for those down times during the Summer and otherwise, or when I think ds needs to review and reinforce concepts in a fun way and not the way he's led to discover in Miquon or tackle it in MCP.

 

 

The unschooling family I mentioned in my earlier post, she loaned me the book Family Math. I haven't had a chance to sit down and go all the way thru it yet. Someone also gave me the book , oh, I can't remember what the exact name is right now. It think it's some like Math for peole who hate math, similar to family math. They both look really good and I'm looking forward to trying some activities from them.

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I'll be honest in that this question on this board confuses me? Could there be a method MORE opposite of classical education than unschooling?

 

Actually, the aspects of our math program that fit what I imagine as "unschooling" are also the elements I feel are most "classical". Drawing lessons from the physical world, re-creating the physical world though the use of manipulatives, having Socratic discussions about math concepts, providing opportunities for directed discovery. Those are "classical" to me.

 

What's not classical (in my mind) is memorizing math facts without the conceptual understanding to explain the operations. Or timed flash-card drills. I don't think this is the way ancient Greeks were teaching their children. And it's certainly not the way I want to teach mine.

 

I'll grant we've done plenty of lab-sheets, or work-book pages, but even these we've used material that promote "thinking" (like Miquon, MEP, Singapore, and Right Start elements).

 

But it's the extra-workbook time that makes our program feel "classical" to me. And those exercises match pretty well with what I imagine an "unschooler" would be going for.

 

To the OP. In addition to Miquon (and the First Year Diary) I'd urge you to look at MEP math. It's a British adaptation of a well esteemed Hungarian math program. And is available without charge to home educators.

 

MEP has a "workbook" side, but it also includes "lesson plans" that are full of wonderful ideas for teaching math that I think you would find very compatible with your aims.

 

Bill

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BlsdMama - I'm so glad you asked. :001_smile:

 

Quick background - We are very relaxed homeschoolers. I vary the amount of structure from year to year and subject to subject, but we fall fairly close to the unschooler line.

 

There are many some things in WTM and classical schooling that I choose to incorporate when appropriate, so I usually lurk here and get great ideas.

 

The spectrum of learning is so wide that I am not sure any two homeschoolers have the same approach. I'm not sure how many of the board people self-identify as unschoolers (we do). I definitely have learned a little from a lot of different points of view and love the information I find here.

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You might try Grayson Wheatley's book as a good starting point. He brings a very refreshing philosophy to teaching math. He's a retired math professor that has studied teaching math to children for a lot of years. He's also had hands on experience.

 

I looked up Grayson Wheatley on Amazon, and I see several books by him. Is there one in particular that you'd recommend?

 

Regards,

Kareni

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Great thread.

 

My 7 yr old dd kinda sorta unschools math. We use RightStart games and Miquon, but I've let it go at a very relaxed, she picks the page and we explore, kind of approach.

 

I have a child who really needs order and a systematic approach, so for him, we follow the RightStart manual and do the lessons in order and it has been perfect for him- he's making all kinds of connections and learning math. But I do want math to be fun and for my kids to have true math understanding, so we take our time with the RS lessons and go off on tangents all the time, and we've been known to play the games for hours. RS has very few worksheets and I think it's fabulous for kids who need a less traditional approach.

 

My dd has had an intuitive understanding of math and was bored by keeping to the pace of RS lessons. I had a Miquon book sitting around and that proved to be perfect for her. The worksheets don't have to be done in order and really encourage exploration and it appeals to her creative side.

 

What we've mostly done is played with math as it has come up. Like exploring circumference because we'd just read The Librarian who Measured the Earth during history. Or setting up a store with play money. And she has a 14 year old brother who loves to "teach" and will show her how negative numbers work or how to borrow and carry and she will then make up her own worksheets and practice on her own.

 

We do have Family Math and it's a good resource, I'd also recommend the RightStart math games manual.

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We don't unschool but this is a website that details an experiment teaching math through common sense and everyday experience. The experiment occurred in the 30's and the man did eventually go to a textbook - the Strayer-Upton ones around 5th grade, I believe - but there are a lot of interesting ideas about teaching mathematical thinking in everyday life.

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