On "taking a knee"

[Laurie4b]

Again, WHAT OPTIONS ARE ACCEPTABLE TO YOU?

 

Wait, let's add satire to the list of unacceptable ones first.

 

No kneeling, tee-shirt wearing, speechifying, tweeting, fist-raising, sitting...

 

anything else?

 

 

quoted material deleted by moderator

 

 

response deleted by moderator

 

If you think I care a hill about of beans about grandstanding on this issue you are sorely mistaken. I CARE ABOUT THE LIVES OF MY FAMILY AND FRIENDS. Full stop. No exceptions. None of this foolishness is anything in the face of those innocent lives.

 

I am asking you how prayer alone is going to save my son.

 

I am asking you how 'serving' is going to save my husband.

 

I am asking you what my family is supposed to do to protect ourselves from people who fear us because we are black and those who would prefer we just not talk about it, as if that will make it go away.

 

Carol, let me also say gently that I don't see Sneezyone as grandstanding at all. Her explanation that she cares about the lives of her family and friends is exactly what I hear from my friends of color. And I hear desperation and frustration from them as well: "How do I get through so my white friends understand this?" If white people don't, as a people, get it, it can't change while we are the majority.

 

 The mamas are in agony for their husbands, sons, and fathers. Agony I don't live day in day out for my sons, husband, and father. My friends' sons and husbands and fathers have to experience indignity that mine would not --also day in day out. I could give examples if you want them.

 

  When people are genuinely afraid for the lives of their loved ones (not even themselves, but their loved ones----I can get that particularly as a mother, as I'm sure most of us can. Hurt me but not my babies) can you see how frustrating it is to be told over and over that this form of protest is not okay nor is that nor is that, the question that begins to rise is : Is there any way to  try to effect systemic change that would be acceptable? [ ETA to add the word "systemic." Thanks to Sadie for clarifying that it is systemic change, not just individual change that I was talking about.]   It begins to sound like the answer is no. 

Edited September 25, 2017 by Laurie4b

[Lisa R.]

My apologies. Kneeling is OK for you, just not satire. Got it.

Speaking of respect and disrespect, can we have a calm and respectful conversation about this issue that is dominating the news? I'm hopeful we can. However, if you continue to shout, using your all caps, and jump over people who agree, disagree, and with those who are asking questions to sort through all this, the thread will be shut down.

 

I think this can be an enlightening discussion as long as someone doesn't talk down (or shout down) those with whom they disagree.

[Laurie4b]

I think you are selling people too short here.

 

I'm not selling anyone short. I'm speaking of personal experience. She's the first I've seen. My experience need not match yours and yours and mine may be different due to geography. 

[Sneezyone]

If you hear me shouting it's because for the vast majority of my life I listened to people who said just keep your head down, do the right things, and you'll be OK. Well it's not ok. It's just.not.OK. and doing/saying nothing is no longer an option no matter how uncomfortable that may make some people. I am frustrated and hurt and angry that after all that's happened and continues to happen folks are still telling me to keep your head down, stay quiet, and do the 'right' thing only no one can tell me what that right thing is. It's not working. It's.not.working. When it was just me, ok, kill me. So what, who cares. I have kids now. These are my children. My children. And in the faces of Samaria Rice and Sybrina Fulton, I see myself. Do you know what that's like? Do you have ANY idea what that's like? And you want these men, fathers, to sit down and shut up so you can comfortably watch TV? SMH.

Edited September 25, 2017 by Sneezyone

[emzhengjiu]

This is an important discussion, but stop personal attacks and snark!

[ktgrok]

I just think they should keep their personal opinions to themselves while they're working - just like any other profession. My friend who is a doctor, my brothers in retail and sales, my DH who is a Police Officer, my friend who's a butcher - none of them are allowed to share personal opinions not related to their jobs with the public they encounter. As part of "the public" I don't want others pushing their views on me on their company's time - wether I agree with it or not.

 

 

 

So they can't sit/kneel/what? I mean, even school teachers can choose not to stand during the anthem. You think employers should be able to force patriotism? or posture?

 

And the idea that they should protest in private, out of the view of the public...well that isn't much of a protest, is it? Take a knee at home, in your living room?

[ktgrok]

I feel the same way.

 

I defend their right to do it, but I think it is disgusting.

 

 

 

Again, did you read the article? Taking a knee in football is something you do to show respect, but also sadness, as in when a fellow player is injured on the field. It is not something you do out of spite, or to show disrespect. 

[Guest]

I just think they should keep their personal opinions to themselves while they're working - just like any other profession. My friend who is a doctor, my brothers in retail and sales, my DH who is a Police Officer, my friend who's a butcher - none of them are allowed to share personal opinions not related to their jobs with the public they encounter. As part of "the public" I don't want others pushing their views on me on their company's time - wether I agree with it or not.

 

Besides, it seems like the NFL has a double standard. They claim to support free expression among the players but they banned Bible references in eye paint, penalized a Muslim player for praying, and the Dallas players weren't allowed to wear stickers on their helmets in support of the five killed police officers last year. At the very least they should be consistent - free expression of opinions and beliefs for all or for none. I prefer none. They're paid to entertain by playing football. They should stick with that and save their free speech for their own time - like all other employees have to do.

The first paragraph doesn't fly because then STANDING would necessarily also be someone pushing their views in your face.

[Laurie4b]

I'd amend that to 'is there any way to try to effect systemic change that would be acceptable' ?

 

Being a nice person and raising your kids to be nice people won't do the trick if we're thinking systems. It's the minimum a person can do.

 

So I too am curious about methods seen as acceptable if people want to change racist systems.

 

Yes, thanks. I am going to edit my post because that is what I meant but didn't say. 

[Guest]

I'd amend that to 'is there any way to try to effect systemic change that would be acceptable' ?

 

Being a nice person and raising your kids to be nice people won't do the trick if we're thinking systems. It's the minimum a person can do.

 

So I too am curious about methods seen as acceptable if people want to change racist systems.

There are methods if the rules of the system are inherently, reinforcingly racist. That's where there needs to be a hammer slam on departments that are brushing these incidents under the rug or circumventing due process. But when there is nothing tangible or even unspoken that is generating the action? You can't do anything on a meta scale. It's all individual choice from there.

 

And you must be very careful about stamping out expressions or thoughts that might be problematic, as our founders knew well.

 

If we were dealing with a caste system, segregation, or other tangible institutions that reinforce racism? There could be broader action. In isolated instances there still can be, where a policy or person can be changed or held to account for their crookedness. But that's not the issue at hand. It is ALL individuals mamas and their babies. On both sides. And the hearts of men with conceive evil and act cruelly even with the best breeding because sin is endemic to the human condition. However working against it on the smallest level of society is exactly how we change it, long term, all the way up to the macro level. There is no other way that affects true change. It can't be imposed from the top and it. Ant be bludgeoned into someone else who already agrees but who doesn't have the power to change anything outside their own mind and home.

 

This is numbing people and annoying them, not fixing problems. It is actually crossing the line and doing harm as the audience is shrinking. It's not effective, even if it makes them feel big and important and crusading.

Edited September 25, 2017 by Arctic Mama

[ktgrok]

Deliberate misunderstanding, and wise misinforming others, is a huge problem.

 

It's true symbols can be ambiguous.  In this case though, I can't think of any way I'd know this action was protesting racism unless someone told me.  It seem to have zero intrinsic connection.  If I were guessing, I'd have thought he was upset about the national anthem, or something to do with football, or maybe even that it was some kind of religious thing.

 

It seems like he wanted to do something at the game, which I can understand - that's a large audience - but I can so easily see people jumping to all kinds of crazy ideas.

 

Maybe he hoped that his fellow americans had the intellect to take five minutes out of their lives to look into it and find out. If someone has time to watch a football game, or to spout off about the horrible protests on Facebook, they have the time to google what the players are protesting about. They just choose not to. 

[Lisa R.]

If you hear me shouting it's because for the vast majority of my life I listened to people who said just keep your head down, do the right things, and you'll be OK. Well it's not ok. It's just.not.OK. and doing/saying nothing is no longer an option no matter how uncomfortable that may make some people. I am frustrated and hurt and angry that after all that's happened and continues to happen folks are still telling me to keep your head down, stay quiet, and do the 'right' thing only no one can tell me what that right thing is. It's not working. It's.not.working. When it was just me, ok, kill me. So what, who cares. I have kids now. These are my children. My children. And in the faces of Samaria Rice and Sybrina Fulton, I see myself. Do you know what that's like? Do you have ANY idea what that's like? And you want these men, fathers, to sit down and shut up so you can comfortably watch TV? SMH.

I hear your pain and your frustration.

 

However, if you want to change people's minds and start them thinking with a different paradigm, talking calmly, listening well, and finding a common ground is more effective. Shouting and snark and being contentious won't make your point clearer. It will cause people to ignore and/or dig their heels in further.

 

Really, I'd like to hear your viewpoint.

[ktgrok]

I think standing with a hand over a heart is respectful. Kneeling seems quite respectful, too, in any context I've heard. While I'm not sure it's a choice I'd make, it seems to be a type of quiet, calm but respectful protest.

 

I think sitting down and holding a fist up are disrespectful choices. If people want to show that disrespect, they are free to do so. The NFL and its fans also have a right to issue a consequence for that behavior whether it is to fire the player, not renew a contract and the fans can stop viewing or attending the games. So, there's freedom on all sides here.

 

Also, the term slactivism comes to mind. See further explanation here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slacktivism    I'd think highly of those respectfully protesting if they're doing something to further race relations or make specific measures furthering the discussion on race relations or police misconduct. However, simply kneeling or sitting or fist raising with a group of people who are doing likewise, isn't taking much of a stand.

 

It's somewhat similar to someone "liking" or "sharing" their social outrage on Facebook or other social media. That don't make you a force for social change. 

 

But....they ARE doing other things, too! Especially Kapernick!

[Lisa R.]

But....they ARE doing other things, too! Especially Kapernick!

I ageee that Kapeenick is. How about the other 150 that protested on Sunday?

[Sneezyone]

This is worth a read. https://thinkprogress.org/criticisms-nfl-protests-civil-rights-7288ae50f843/

 

Please don't mistake me. I am not out here to change any minds.

 

I am out to protect my family, that's it.

 

These exact same arguments about speaking softly, calmly, non-threateningly, etc. have been made before and will be again.

 

They are not convincing.

 

ETA: I am not linking that for the political crap. I am linking to it for the cold, hard, Gallup stats.

Edited September 25, 2017 by Sneezyone

[Guest]

I am not bothered that there are people out there thinking the protesting players are out of line somehow.

 

I think the players were all well aware of all possible criticisms beforehand and proceeded to do a very graceful series of protests nonetheless.

 

They have the right to do it. People have the right to not like it or disagree.

 

edited by moderator

political comment

 

Whether their bosses should be able to dictate their right to do it or not, otoh, strikes me as a hairier, more nuanced issue.

 

 

Eta:

It is a political comment to say that politicians are ethically bound not to try to get privately employed citizens fired? I mean it's about politics but it's not inflammatory, surely.

Edited September 25, 2017 by OKBud

[ktgrok]

So you agree that what they are protesting SHOULD be protested, because it is awful, but not so awful that your football game should be effected in any way. Because it's important, but not as important as being able to watch football without pesky things like thinking, even for 2 minutes, about important issues. That should be done later, preferably on their own time and out of the public spotlight where no one has to actually see it. 

I don't disagree with the premise - innocent people, or suspects not resisting arrest, need to not be shot. Full stop. The disproportionate amount of this happening to black men is ghastly awful, and there is no way to defensible suggest it is warranted use of force in even most of these cases. The details don't support that. It is something I'd expect to see in a segregated third world country and not, say, Lafayette or Pittsburgh. But taking a knee during the anthem until... some magical day when no one ever dies?... is not only against the rules of the NFL, but it's losing efficacy except to drive away at least some fans. And no, the fans don't want black men dying either and aren't racist. That's a silly assumption. What they do want is to watch a game, not a political protest, every flipping time a team hits the turf.

 

[Xuzi]

I hear your pain and your frustration.

 

However, if you want to change people's minds and start them thinking with a different paradigm, talking calmly, listening well, and finding a common ground is more effective. Shouting and snark and being contentious won't make your point clearer. It will cause people to ignore and/or dig their heels in further.

 

Really, I'd like to hear your viewpoint.

Would you find it easy to speak calmly about your loved ones lives being constantly on the line because of who they are?

 

Speaking generally, I think people's refusal to take seriously someone's anguished protests until they can express it nicely plays into keeping things as they are.

 

They are being shot in their cars in front of their children, on their front porches when they called the police for help, they're strangled for the crime of re-selling cigarettes. And never seeing justice.

 

I'd have a hard time expressing my frustration and pain in a socially acceptable way. (Which has yet to be defined, anyway)

[EmseB]

My apologies. Kneeling is OK for you, just not satire. Got it.

Apology accepted, thank you.

 

I do not agree that it was satire, but rather immature name calling. I am totally fine with disagreeing on that point.

[ktgrok]

Some things are more important than profit. 

 

And if the average viewer thinks men dying is just politics, well they don't deserve to watch the NFL. Same if they care more about entertainment than men dying, or about racism. 

 

"Don't mess up the busses, or the trash collection...people don't want politics spoiling all that" is I guess what people think should have been said to MLK Jr.

Of course they do. IT'S A SPORT. It's about the game, not the views of the people playing it. They also care more about gourmet coffee than saving seals for the owner of Starbucks. And they care more about rock music and punk than an impromptu rant against fascism. Football is a product in the public sphere, being sold and marketed. The players make absolute bank off that.

Once you annoy your consumer, your days of prosperity from their pocketbooks are numbered. This is nothing new to any advertiser or production team and it shouldn't shock Goodell, either.

His issues with the league are more complicated than that, but this is an area he is choosing to shoot himself in the foot by not enforcing his own rules (when he has done so in over the top fashion in other areas, as has been noted up thread).

The politicization of sports (and everything) is becoming a huge problem. ESPN is hemmorhaging viewers, and the NFL is only part of the issue. There is a broader sports culture and commentary issue at play and the fans are fed up.

 

[Laurie4b]

I hear your pain and your frustration.

 

However, if you want to change people's minds and start them thinking with a different paradigm, talking calmly, listening well, and finding a common ground is more effective. Shouting and snark and being contentious won't make your point clearer. It will cause people to ignore and/or dig their heels in further.

 

Really, I'd like to hear your viewpoint.

 

I am going to give all mama bears a pass who are genuinely and realistically scared for the lives of their loved ones. I see people on WTM all the time get ALL CAPS MAMA BEAR over their children being emotionally hurt---and I don't blame them, either. 

 

So maybe rather than correcting someone scared for the lives of her loved ones about the way she is expressing that, we should try really hard to get what she is saying. 

[Mommyof1]

The only thing I have to say on the matter is those football players are paid to do their job which is football. It's their workplace.

 

How many in the working class can say/do whatever they wish during their work hours?

 

Just a thought.

[ktgrok]

Well, if that is all that people did during the Civil Rights Era we'd not have gotten real far. 

Laurie. We can't do anything. We control our own thoughts and how we raise our families. We do what we already are in teaching human dignity, respect, and the values of America in allowing diversity of opinion as an expression of freedom. When we are able we vote against individuals furthering nepotism and abuses of power in their offices, especially on a local level. And we keep raising the next generation to think and act better.

But we were already doing that. Before Baltimore. Before Kaepernick. I am not shooting black men. My kids aren't shooting anyone either. And we cannot stop every unnecessary bullet from a gun we wouldn't fire, ourselves, in the same circumstance. There is very little else to do that isn't just moneymaking off victims and attention grabbing for, what, public shaming? Annoying people who are sympathetic and agree with you? Calling people racists who know their own motivations better than you ever will?

All this does is bounce off the real racists, feed the machine of violence and anger that repays wrongs with more wrong, and inoculates and inures those who are sympathetic until they hit emotional exhaustion and tune out.




For the record, bibiche and others, I'm in the lattermost group.

 

[Paige]

I don't understand how the national anthem has become some sort of military totem. It's not the military anthem- they all actually have their own service specific songs. It's the anthem for every citizen; military and civilian. It's also not the police anthem. We are a military family and I do not feel in any way disrespected by people kneeling during the anthem or people who for whatever personal reasons choose to not stand for the anthem, or people who don't wish to recite the pledge of allegiance. It has nothing to do with me. I guess I would have a problem if someone said, "All military service members are killers and A-holes," but that's a far step from taking a knee. I see the protests on the field as the players expressing a sign of distress- like an upside down flag. It seems very respectful to me. They aren't turning their backs, sitting and idly talking, making rude gestures, or doing any number of things which our society commonly views as disrespectful. Since when is kneeling for anything showing disrespect? People kneel to pray, to ask people to marry them, to beg and plead, to express submission,...it's strange to add "to disrespect military" to this list. 

 

Thanks for posting that, Sneezy.

 

The thing I find particularly frustrating is that there seems to be no acceptable way to confront this issue of systemic racism. If people think there is no acceptable way to raise awareness, are they really just saying that they prefer the status quo?  You can protest but only in unobtrusive ways so that the majority doesn't have to be inconvenienced or even take notice? Are people really okay with what is going on?

 

In my experience, many people who are upset about the protests do not believe in systematic racism and really are ok with status quo. They are more concerned with what they see as persecution of "traditional American Values." Define that however you want...

 

Laurie. We can't do anything. We control our own thoughts and how we raise our families. We do what we already are in teaching human dignity, respect, and the values of America in allowing diversity of opinion as an expression of freedom. When we are able we vote against individuals furthering nepotism and abuses of power in their offices, especially on a local level. And we keep raising the next generation to think and act better.
 

 

I refuse to accept that we are powerless. We can do things, but perhaps it will be uncomfortable. We can join in protests. We can speak out publicly and refuse to accept that police can kill people without consequences because they are frightened/startled/made a mistake and wear a badge. We can stand beside our friends who feel threatened and teach our children to stand up and speak instead of wringing our hands in private. We can vote and campaign against people who are racist or who use racism for their own benefit and fight for policies that respect all people. Voting alone, however, is a weak exercise of power- we can get more involved in politics personally. We can show up at our local city councils and speak up for others and for our communities. We can actively confront our own biases instead of refusing to admit they exist. There's lots of things we can do, but it can be hard to actually do those things because we are busy, complacent, etc. I put myself in the same busy/complacent group- I can and should do more as well. 

 

ETA: Also, if the players' bosses support their protests, isn't that their right? Their bosses are not telling them to stop it, so what's the problem? If the customers don't like it, I have no issue with people not buying tickets or watching the games, but to say it's wrong because it's on company time doesn't work if the company is ok with it. 

Edited September 25, 2017 by Paige

[EmseB]

Would you find it easy to speak calmly about your loved ones lives being constantly on the line because of who they are?

 

Speaking generally, I think people's refusal to take seriously someone's anguished protests until they can express it nicely plays into keeping things as they are.

 

They are being shot in their cars in front of their children, on their front porches when they called the police for help, they're strangled for the crime of re-selling cigarettes. And never seeing justice.

 

I'd have a hard time expressing my frustration and pain in a socially acceptable way. (Which has yet to be defined, anyway)

This is an internet discussion board, presumably for thoughtful discussion, right? Presumably the reason for posting this here instead of the politics board would ostensibly be to widen the audience, right? If that wider audience comes here to discuss what they think about the topic and then are shouted at that they are wrong at every post that seems to belie the whole point of posting in the first place.

 

So, for me, if I want discussion, I go to a discussion board.

 

If I want to shout at people or vent loudly about something that angers me, I'd go to a street protest or similar venue.

[ktgrok]

I ageee that Kapeenick is. How about the other 150 that protested on Sunday?

they specifically said they were doing it to show solidarity with him. A show of solidarity pretty much demands it be, well, a SHOW. As in, to do it in front of people. Cant do that privately. 

[Corraleno]

Thanks for posting that, Sneezy.

 

The thing I find particularly frustrating is that there seems to be no acceptable way to confront this issue of systemic racism. If people think there is no acceptable way to raise awareness, are they really just saying that they prefer the status quo?  You can protest but only in unobtrusive ways so that the majority doesn't have to be inconvenienced or even take notice? Are people really okay with what is going on?

 

Exactly.

 

It's like "I get that racism is still sort of a problem, but I'm not personally racist, so you black athletes need to just shut and up perform for my entertainment and stop reminding me that your lives, and the lives of your friends and family members, are at risk every. single. day. in this country. Because that kinda ruins the fun of watching you guys bash your brains out for our amusement."

[Guest]

So you agree that what they are protesting SHOULD be protested, because it is awful, but not so awful that your football game should be effected in any way. Because it's important, but not as important as being able to watch football without pesky things like thinking, even for 2 minutes, about important issues. That should be done later, preferably on their own time and out of the public spotlight where no one has to actually see it.

Nope. I don't think they should use that time to protest. Because it doesn't change anything. And you know, NFL rules.

 

The rules are found on pages A62-63 of the league’s game operations manual:

The National Anthem must be played prior to every NFL game, and all players must be on the sideline for the National Anthem.

During the National Anthem, players on the field and bench area should stand at attention, face the flag, hold helmets in their left hand, and refrain from talking. The home team should ensure that the American flag is in good condition. It should be pointed out to players and coaches that we continue to be judged by the public in this area of respect for the flag and our country. Failure to be on the field by the start of the National Anthem may result in discipline, such as fines, suspensions, and/or the forfeiture of draft choice(s) for violations of the above, including first offenses.

Or okay, do it once. Get the penalty, make the statement, move on before you just annoy the people paying your paycheck, the vast majority of whom agree with you but just want to watch you run headlong into someone else.

[ktgrok]

Exactly. "well, yes it's terrible those poor black people are killed, but can you not raise your voice about it? You getting upset is the real problem here."

 

Just no. 

I don't think it's OK to tone police like that. And I'm not saying that snarkily or contentiously, but as a bland opinion. To me it has resonances (which I am not suggesting you endorse or mean ) of telling  

'those uppity blacks' how to behave.

 

My suggestion would be that we stop turning this into a discussion on how sneezy can do better, and one where we listen to her perspective and thoughtfully consider what she is saying, and then come back to the discussion with answers to the question of 'what is considered acceptable' re protest if kneeling is not.

 

[Guest]

Exactly.

 

It's like "I get that racism is still sort of a problem, but I'm not personally racist, so you black athletes need to just shut and up perform for my entertainment and stop reminding me that your lives, and the lives of your friends and family members, are at risk every. single. day. in this country. Because that kinda ruins the fun of watching you guys bash your brains out for our amusement."

Correction, they bash their brains out for an enormous paycheck. Nobody is watching this for free, just like boxing.

 

Now whether either of those is ethical is a valid and good side discussions. I'd be okay with no pro sports at all, personally. Just amateur level.

[Guest]

The only thing I have to say on the matter is those football players are paid to do their job which is football. It's their workplace.

 

How many in the working class can say/do whatever they wish during their work hours?

 

Just a thought.

Almost all of them. I was chastised zero times for talking with the stridency of youth about my polarizing and unpopular political views when I worked in a factory. As long as it wasn't sexual harassment (and, honestly even if it was) we could say whatever the heck we wanted to say. We were there to be cogs in The Machine; no one cared what our brains we're thinking I assure you.

[ktgrok]

So, he originally sat. That was disrespectful, so after talking to a veteran he switched to the one knee thing, which is a sign of respect in football. That was also called disrespectful. Other players said fine, we won't sit, or kneel. We will stand, like you want, but hold a fist up. That was also called disrespectful. They can't win, unless they just don't challenge anything at all. 

 

[Guest]

So, he originally sat. That was disrespectful, so after talking to a veteran he switched to the one knee thing, which is a sign of respect in football. That was also called disrespectful. Other players said fine, we won't sit, or kneel. We will stand, like you want, but hold a fist up. That was also called disrespectful. They can't win, unless they just don't challenge anything at all.

 

What are they challenging? Who are they challenging? What's the goal besides awareness or venting or...?

 

 

Because what the audience is hearing is they they are being accused and challenged, despite not having done anything to deserve the ire. They aren't shooting cops. They aren't controlling these establishments. And they might even agree with the sentiment. So why are they getting badgered by the players?

 

 

The audience is the one most affected by this. That's why it's an inherent misdirection if you don't want to offend and alienate the people paying you.

Edited September 25, 2017 by Arctic Mama

[ktgrok]

Or okay, do it once. Get the penalty, make the statement, move on before you just annoy the people paying your paycheck, the vast majority of whom agree with you but just want to watch you run headlong into someone else.

 

Heaven forbid reminding people about black people dying and systemic racism annoy anyone. 

[MercyA]

It won't save lives. It won't change minds.

 

Arctic, you can't know that. People said the same things about my friends and I protesting in front of abortion clinics. They were wrong.

 

People sometimes say the conversations we have here aren't going to change minds, either. They're wrong about that, too. Some of my views have been changed significantly as a direct result of what thoughtful, intelligent people have shared here.

Laurie. We can't do anything.

 

That is a really sad, defeatist thing to say. Speaking up and supporting others who are speaking out is the very least we can do.

 

"Open your mouth for the mute, for the rights of all the unfortunate. Open your mouth, judge righteously, and defend the rights of the afflicted and needy."

 

"Do not participate in the unfruitful deeds of darkness, but instead even expose them."

 

Edited September 25, 2017 by MercyA

[regentrude]

The only thing I have to say on the matter is those football players are paid to do their job which is football. It's their workplace.

How many in the working class can say/do whatever they wish during their work hours?

 

A private employer has the right to impose restrictions on their employees' expressions during work hours. The first amendment does not limit the employer's right to do so.

But the government (and its representatives) does NOT have the right to impose, or call for, restrictions on a person's expression. The first amendment speaks very clearly to that.

[Paige]

This is worth a read. https://thinkprogress.org/criticisms-nfl-protests-civil-rights-7288ae50f843/

 

 

 

Thank you for sharing this! I wish I had it to share w/my kids when we were going over American history last year. It's very telling: protesters/protests are never socially acceptable in their own time. I bet we could find similar stats about people's views of the suffragettes in the early 1900s. 

[Guest]

My people protesting abortions were trying to help women find another way. Individuals walking into the clinics. Not random yelling with signs of burned baby carcasses. This, I endorse.

 

What deed is being done in darkness that this particular effort is particularly exposing that we didn't know about and agree with, as a culture? The lone sinning racist in the audience isn't shamed by this because he is more in love with his sin that aware of his need to repent of it.

 

 

This isn't that complicated. And I'm a realist. I hope for the best, of course, but these actions are actually proving counterproductive. The numbers speak for themselves.

[ktgrok]

What are they challenging? Who are they challenging? What's the goal besides awareness or venting or...?

 

 

Because what the audience is hearing is they they are being accused and challenged, despite not having done anything to deserve the ire. They aren't shooting cops. They aren't controlling these establishments. And they might even agree with the sentiment. So why are they getting badgered by the players?

 

 

The audience is the one most affected by this. That's why it's an inherent misdirection if you don't want to offend and alienate the people paying you.

 

 

You said it in your first line. Awareness. For people to think about it, discuss it, CARE. I may not shoot cops, but I have interactions in real life that I should work on. Today, someone said something racist and I didn't speak up. I should have. I was too flabbergasted to know what to say. I SHOULD have said something. As a white person, I have MORE power to influence this than a black person, as I doubt this guy would have said what he said if there had been black people there. 

 

And watching someone take a knee, silently, for all of two minutes, isn't badgering. It isn't. Don't like it, take that moment to get up and pee, or grab a snack. 

[regentrude]

The audience is the one most affected by this. 

 

How is the audience inconvenienced? They don't go on strike and refuse to play. They kneel during the preliminaries. You can still see them bash their heads in if you are so inclined.

[ktgrok]

My people protesting abortions were trying to help women find another way. Individuals walking into the clinics. Not random yelling with signs of burned baby carcasses. This, I endorse.

 

What deed is being done in darkness that this particular effort is particularly exposing that we didn't know about and agree with, as a culture? The lone sinning racist in the audience isn't shamed by this because he is more in love with his sin that aware of his need to repent of it.

 

 

This isn't that complicated. And I'm a realist. I hope for the best, of course, but these actions are actually proving counterproductive. The numbers speak for themselves.

 

So...everyone already knows about systemic racism and violence towards black people, but no one knows what an abortion is or that there are alternatives? Seriously?

 

Trust me, there are PLENTY of racists watching football. Plenty. 

[Murphy101]

A private employer has the right to impose restrictions on their employees' expressions during work hours. The first amendment does not limit the employer's right to do so.

But the government (and its representatives) does NOT have the right to impose, or call for, restrictions on a person's expression. The first amendment speaks very clearly to that.

THIS!

 

I could not care less about knee taking. They can if they want. It's peaceful so whatever. If their employer wants to deal with it, I don't care. I have never been to a football game in my life and don't much care to start.

 

Political comment deleted by moderator.

Edited September 25, 2017 by emzhengjiu

[maize]

It's done here, but we don't attach so much devotion to it. It's a national joke that no-one knows the words to the second verse.

I doubt most Americans even know that our anthem has a second (or third, or fourth) verse

[Corraleno]

Advertising dollars and walking. Tickets aren't selling. People won't buy the sports channel packages on cable and satellite anymore. We shall see how the league and the networks respond to the consumer pressure.

 

But the boycotts are coming from both sides. How should the league respond to "consumer pressure" when one group wants the protestors fired and the other group supports the protests and wants Kaepernick rehired?

 

The only solution I can think of is the one chosen by three of the teams yesterday: keep the players in the locker room until after the anthem, just like they used to do. Surely the military can find better use for the $12 million they have spent so far bribing NFL owners to promote the falsehood that the American flag represents the US military instead of the 300 million people, in all their diversity, who live in this country.

[MercyA]

My people protesting abortions were trying to help women find another way. Individuals walking into the clinics. Not random yelling with signs of burned baby carcasses. This, I endorse.

 

What deed is being done in darkness that this particular effort is particularly exposing that we didn't know about and agree with, as a culture? The lone sinning racist in the audience isn't shamed by this because he is more in love with his sin that aware of his need to repent of it.

 

This isn't that complicated. And I'm a realist. I hope for the best, of course, but these actions are actually proving counterproductive. The numbers speak for themselves.

 

Actually, graphic abortion signs do save lives (although, for the record, I used photos of living fetuses). But that's a whole other discussion.  ;)

 

Are you saying that we, as a nation, already have enough exposure to the fact that systematic racism is occurring? That there shouldn't be more and continued exposure? I submit that there *needs* to be more, because there seem to be people here and people in my community who deny its very existence. 

 

As far as that "lone sinning racist" goes, he needs someone to call him to repentance. What he does with the message will be up to him. 

 

ETA: My husband says if you think there's only one sinning racist in the audience, you need to go read the comments being posted on Yahoo Sports. 

Edited September 25, 2017 by MercyA

[Corraleno]

I doubt most Americans even know that our anthem has a second (or third, or fourth) verse

 

Or that one of the verses celebrates the slaughter of black slaves fighting for freedom from oppression.

[maize]

Or that one of the verses celebrates the slaughter of black slaves fighting for freedom from oppression.

War of 1812--it was the British we were fighting. I always assumed it was their slaughter that was being celebrated?

 

There are certainly good reasons not to sing that verse though!

[maize]

I've heard that Yankee Doodle was once proposed as the national anthem of the US. That would have been my pick. It would be such a contrast when played at the Olympics alongside all the typically overly pompous anthems.

 

Instead we had to choose one that fits in.

[regentrude]

War of 1812--it was the British we were fighting. I always assumed it was their slaughter that was being celebrated?

 

There are certainly good reasons not to sing that verse though!

 

Some historians read the verse

 

"No refuge could save the hireling and slave

From the terror of flight or the gloom of the grave,"

 

to refer to the Corps of Colonial Marines, black slaves fighting on the side of the British in exchange for their freedom.

Key had fought in the battle of Bladensburg in 1814 where American forces were defeated by the British, and the Corps played a big role in the victory.

 

F S Keys was quite racist and referred to blacks as "a distinct and inferior race of people, which all experience proves to be the greatest evil that afflicts a community". He may have meant "slaves" as literally referring to slaves.

 

Edited September 25, 2017 by regentrude

[Corraleno]

Because what the audience is hearing is they they are being accused and challenged, despite not having done anything to deserve the ire. They aren't shooting cops. They aren't controlling these establishments. And they might even agree with the sentiment. So why are they getting badgered by the players?

 

They aren't interupting the game to make everyone sit through a 20 minute documentary on racial inequality. The anthem is going to be played whether the players stand, kneel, sit, or do backflips. The only people in the audience who should feel challenged or accused are the ones who deserve to be challenged or accused. The fact that someone would feel "badgered" by a 2 minute silent reminder that racism is a big problem in this country is pretty telling.

 

 

The audience is the one most affected by this.

 

No the people who are the most affected by this are the people of color who are being harassed, unlawfully arrested, and summarily executed every. freaking. day. in this country.

 

That's why it's an inherent misdirection if you don't want to offend and alienate the people paying you.

 

Yeah, those uppity blacks really need to remember that their salaries are paid by a predominantly white audience, so they should just shut up and "remember their place" and be grateful they have a job at all.

 

 

 

Believing that the comfort of white people is more important than the rights and lives of people of color is exactly what this protest is about. And IMO it's working.