On "taking a knee"

[Barb_]

Interesting. I just read an article about the NFL controversy that included quotes from WH aides claiming an intentional and premeditated culture war.

 

In private, the president and his top aides freely admit that he is engaged in a culture war on behalf of his white, working-class base, a New York billionaire waging war against “politically correct†coastal elites on behalf of his supporters in the South and in the Midwest. He believes the war was foisted upon him by former President Barack Obama and other Democrats — and he is determined to win, current and former aides said

[Greta]

 

Personally, I'll never be able to wrap my mind around the accusation that kneeling is disrespectful. In the Christian denominations I was raised in when one goes to the altar one kneels. Historically, kneeling has been the thing to do to show respect for rulers. Kneeling has throughout history been pretty much the ultimate sign of respect.

 

 

 

The three images I had in my head of kneeling prior to this protest were:  a believer kneeling in prayer before God, a knight kneeling before a king or queen, and a man kneeling before the woman he's about to ask to marry him.  All of these are clearly profoundly respectful and deferential.  And that is the way that I interpreted the NFL players kneeling as well:  showing deference and respect while still conveying their deep concern that not everyone is getting the freedoms that are promised to us in this country.  When someone earlier in this thread (at least, I think it was this thread) compared it to spitting on the graves of soldiers, I was truly shocked.  I never in a million years could have imagined such an interpretation.

 

But what I'm learning is that there are two sets of standards for how to protest.  

 

Does anyone else remember that second-amendments rights march on Washington, after which people were absolutely gushing with praise for the protestors because:  they remained non-violent.  I remember thinking at the time that was a pretty low bar for what constitutes honorable behavior.  You didn't open fire?  Congratulations, you're an American Hero!  Let us all join in singing your praises!   :001_rolleyes:

 

But apparently that particular bar applies only to predominantly white groups of protestors who are protesting on behalf of a right that was never in any danger in the first place.  If you're black and you're protesting violence and murder, well, now that's a whole different story.  You're wrong when you do it in the streets because you're inconveniencing the drivers.  You're wrong when you do it during the anthem because you're disrespecting the soldiers and annoying the viewers.  You're wrong when you say things I don't like to hear.  You're wrong to wear socks and shirts that I don't like.  You're wrong because I don't want to deal with you.  

 

The double standard is so completely ridiculous, I feel like I've found myself living in an episode of the Twilight Zone or something.  It's so weird it's scary.

[mellifera33]

I have noticed an interesting age-related trend among my Facebook friends and family regarding "taking a knee." My friends and family who grew up during WW2 are all vocally supporting the NFL players who kneel during the anthem. The flag and anthem adoration being demanded really hits a nerve with them, regardless of their political party. 

[goldberry]

Here is a Facebook post that the Green Beret Michael Sands posted yesterday in response to the controversy:

 

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=10209994259472453&id=1214593484

 

I don't think that anyone with an opposing view is reading or listening to these statements by vets or by the actual players.  I just keep hearing the same repeated, "They don't respect the flag, the country, the military" or even that they hate those things. 

 

So when the military or the players or anyone else expresses what their true feelings are, is no one reading or listening? Or is it like the poster here who said exceptions don't count, because all the military apparently feels the same way?   (But this is in spite of so many military speaking out and saying they DO NOT feel the same way.)  How is there not an understanding that if YOU did this it might mean something very bad, but so many others including the people doing it are saying that is NOT what it means to them, but people keep saying "Yes it does!  They hate America! They are offending all the military!"

 

Or is no one even willing to listen to the people (including military people) talking?  I'm truly baffled.

[TechWife]

Or is no one even willing to listen to the people (including military people) talking? I'm truly baffled.

I think you hit the nail on the head. People aren't willing to listen. With listening comes understanding and responsibility. Responsibility is uncomfortable, especially when it requires action.

[Corraleno]

Black men kneeling for the anthem are disrespecting our soldiers and military, but a white billionaire mocking Gold Star families and POWs ("I like soldiers who don't get captured") is not disrespectful?  Black men kneeling in peaceful protest = "spitting on the graves of WWII soldiers," but a president who refers to Nazis as "very fine people" when they march through the streets chanting "make America white again" is respectful to those who died at the hands of the Nazis?

 

That is the blatant, disgusting face of racism in America right now.

[Corraleno]

I don't think that anyone with an opposing view is reading or listening to these statements by vets or by the actual players.  I just keep hearing the same repeated, "They don't respect the flag, the country, the military" or even that they hate those things. 

 

So when the military or the players or anyone else expresses what their true feelings are, is no one reading or listening? Or is it like the poster here who said exceptions don't count, because all the military apparently feels the same way?   (But this is in spite of so many military speaking out and saying they DO NOT feel the same way.)  How is there not an understanding that if YOU did this it might mean something very bad, but so many others including the people doing it are saying that is NOT what it means to them, but people keep saying "Yes it does!  They hate America! They are offending all the military!"

 

Or is no one even willing to listen to the people (including military people) talking?  I'm truly baffled.

 

They don't want facts, they want validation of their own ideas. They want to be left in their little cocoon where they can watch "the monkeys dance" (as one official put it) for their own amusement, and not think about the way blatant, pervasive, systemic racism affects the lives of these men, and their families, off the field. They figure as long as they're not personally shooting any black people, it's really no their problem. And what about black on black crime, amirite?

[goldberry]

Black men kneeling for the anthem are disrespecting our soldiers and military, but a white billionaire mocking Gold Star families and POWs ("I like soldiers who don't get captured") is not disrespectful?  Black men kneeling in peaceful protest = "spitting on the graves of WWII soldiers," but a president who refers to Nazis as "very fine people" when they march through the streets chanting "make America white again" is respectful to those who died at the hands of the Nazis?

 

I have tried to come up with how this situation is not about race, and I'm having a hard time.  The level of outrage is so disproportionate to what is going on.  I honestly thought the same thing when the Bundy situation was happening, how people called him a hero for taking over federal land with guns. There was no outrage. "But he had a reason!"  I keep trying to figure it out.

 

It's not that I think someone couldn't be offended about this specific thing without a race element.  But it's the level of offense in comparison to other things, especially the things you mentioned that didn't generate ANY outrage from some of these same people. For those who are offended by all of these things, then yes, I could acknowledge that it might not involve race.  But in my personal life, the same people offended over this topic made so many excuses for not being offended over the other things.  In those cases, I really hope they find a way to examine themselves and ask why. 

[Corraleno]

The three images I had in my head of kneeling prior to this protest were:  a believer kneeling in prayer before God, a knight kneeling before a king or queen, and a man kneeling before the woman he's about to ask to marry him.  All of these are clearly profoundly respectful and deferential.  And that is the way that I interpreted the NFL players kneeling as well:  showing deference and respect while still conveying their deep concern that not everyone is getting the freedoms that are promised to us in this country.  When someone earlier in this thread (at least, I think it was this thread) compared it to spitting on the graves of soldiers, I was truly shocked.  I never in a million years could have imagined such an interpretation.

 

But what I'm learning is that there are two sets of standards for how to protest.  

 

Does anyone else remember that second-amendments rights march on Washington, after which people were absolutely gushing with praise for the protestors because:  they remained non-violent.  I remember thinking at the time that was a pretty low bar for what constitutes honorable behavior.  You didn't open fire?  Congratulations, you're an American Hero!  Let us all join in singing your praises!   :001_rolleyes:

 

But apparently that particular bar applies only to predominantly white groups of protestors who are protesting on behalf of a right that was never in any danger in the first place.  If you're black and you're protesting violence and murder, well, now that's a whole different story.  You're wrong when you do it in the streets because you're inconveniencing the drivers.  You're wrong when you do it during the anthem because you're disrespecting the soldiers and annoying the viewers.  You're wrong when you say things I don't like to hear.  You're wrong to wear socks and shirts that I don't like.  You're wrong because I don't want to deal with you.  

 

The double standard is so completely ridiculous, I feel like I've found myself living in an episode of the Twilight Zone or something.  It's so weird it's scary.

 

From Trevor Noah:

 

It’s wrong to do it in the streets;

It’s wrong to do it in the tweets;

You cannot do it on the field;

You cannot do it if you’ve kneeled;

And don’t do it if you’re rich,

you ungrateful son of a bitch.

Because there’s one thing that’s a fact:

You cannot protest if you’re black.

SaveSave

[Laurie4b]

The three images I had in my head of kneeling prior to this protest were:  a believer kneeling in prayer before God, a knight kneeling before a king or queen, and a man kneeling before the woman he's about to ask to marry him.  All of these are clearly profoundly respectful and deferential.  And that is the way that I interpreted the NFL players kneeling as well:  showing deference and respect while still conveying their deep concern that not everyone is getting the freedoms that are promised to us in this country.  When someone earlier in this thread (at least, I think it was this thread) compared it to spitting on the graves of soldiers, I was truly shocked.  I never in a million years could have imagined such an interpretation.

 

 

 

The accounts I read went like this: 

 

Colin Kapernick sat out the National Anthem 3 times. People noticed the 3rd time. 

 

At that point, former Seahawks player and Green Beret Nate Boyer wrote an open letter to Colin. 

 

Colin reached out and they had a conversation. 

 

Colin stopped sitting and started kneeling as a way to protest respectfully. (He listened) 

 

The story is well worth reading, imo. 

 

https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/heres-how-nate-boyer-got-colin-kaepernick-to-go-from-sitting-to-kneeling/

[Pawz4me]

I don't think that anyone with an opposing view is reading or listening to these statements by vets or by the actual players.  I just keep hearing the same repeated, "They don't respect the flag, the country, the military" or even that they hate those things. 

 

So when the military or the players or anyone else expresses what their true feelings are, is no one reading or listening? Or is it like the poster here who said exceptions don't count, because all the military apparently feels the same way?   (But this is in spite of so many military speaking out and saying they DO NOT feel the same way.)  How is there not an understanding that if YOU did this it might mean something very bad, but so many others including the people doing it are saying that is NOT what it means to them, but people keep saying "Yes it does!  They hate America! They are offending all the military!"

 

Or is no one even willing to listen to the people (including military people) talking?  I'm truly baffled.

 

Because TPTB have conditioned so many of their constituents to think they can frame their own narrative about any issue. Facts be damned.

[MistyMountain]

Black people have experience hundreds of years of slavery followed immedietely by predjuduce laws that kept them separate and even immediately after the civil rights act we started blacklisting real estate policies that created ghetthos for the poor people left behind who could not escape. Today people of color are watched more closely in stores and trusted less and there are clear examples of when they were shot for no reason. You do not recover from all that in no time at all. It is only acceptable to protest when no one is watching though because it might make people feel bad to bring this up and football is so sacred. It is not disrespecting military people to bring up how not everyone had the same rights and did have a hard time in this country simply because of skin. Some of the people I know who are most disturbed by things like this and want people to protest were people in the military. The winds of change take lots of time. I am glad there are people out there that do not remain neutral on a moving train or just mind there own business and keep things to themselves. Bad leaders or policies like Hitler will exist again but it is the people who say nothing that allow things like that to occur.

[Lanny]

Lanny, can you respond to the idea that kneeling is showing respect and deference while expressing sadness and grief simultaneously? Do you feel it isn't possible to do both? Is there only one way to show respect for the flag and for our country?

 

ETA: I just reread and realize my tone may have come off as challenging. I didn't mean it that way. I'm truly baffled by those who see kneeling as disrespectful and am interested in hearing why?

 

@Barb_   I hesitated participating in this thread, for a number of days.   In my case, I would have reacted to people not reciting the Pledge of Allegiance, or "Taking a Knee" during the National Anthem, the same, when I was a very young man, on the Left, or now, as an old man, on the Right. For me, it has nothing to do with which Political party I am affiliated with, or whether I am a Progressive or a Conservative.  It has to do, deep down, with who I am as an American citizen.

 

The people who react to this as I do, are Democrats and Republicans.  They are White and Black and Hispanic. They are Military Veterans and they are people who have never been in the military.

 

To do this, when the U.S. Flag is on display, and when the National Anthem is being sung, to me and to a large part of the U.S. population, is very disturbing and offensive. 

 

It is legal. That is one thing those in the U.S. Military have fought for and many of them have died for. 

 

I am thankful this is non-violent.

 

If people want to Kneel, that is fine with me, but not during the Pledge of Allegiance or the National Anthem. 

 

The NFL will survive this, but with fewer fans.  

 

The players who are doing this have a very valid point that there is still a lot of racism in the USA. That's true. I do not see any of them demonstrating, because innocent Police Officers are assassinated, sitting in their cars, or refused service in restaurants, because they are police officers.  That's sad... There are many issues that are very difficult to eliminate.

[EmseB]

From Trevor Noah:

 

It’s wrong to do it in the streets;

It’s wrong to do it in the tweets;

You cannot do it on the field;

You cannot do it if you’ve kneeled;

And don’t do it if you’re rich,

you ungrateful son of a bitch.

Because there’s one thing that’s a fact:

You cannot protest if you’re black.

SaveSave

 

Who is saying they can't do this?

 

Saying why it's meaningless/unproductive/disrespectful/etc/etc/etc is not saying they shouldn't be able to do it, and it certainly isn't saying they shouldn't be able to do it because of their race. Even expressing an opinion that one will no longer watch the NFL, or that the owners should fine them is not expressing the idea that they shouldn't be able to protest. Remember the idea that free speech isn't free of any and all consequences?

 

People are protesting.  Other people are reacting to the protests with their own thoughts about the protests. Some people disagree with the protest.  Some people agree with the protests.

 

The idea is that they are protesting and everyone should just agree?  Not notice?  Not having any dissenting thoughts about it? Everyone must join in solidarity or else they can't say anything about the protests?

 

That's not how any of this works.

Edited September 27, 2017 by EmseB

[Catwoman]

I have become far more liberal.  DH not as much, but he thinks all politicians are nuts.  

 

It seems the political spectrum has become far more polarized and it isn't nearly as easy to sit in the middle and swing a little left on one issue and a little right on the other.

 

Sigh.

 

What I find interesting is that my views don't seem to have changed very much as I have gotten older, but years ago I would have been described as a moderate, whereas now I am apparently a flaming liberal... for expressing the exact same beliefs.

 

It's bizarre.

[maize]

People tend to vote their self-interests and I think that explains age-wise general voting patterns.

Except that many people don't vote their self interests.

 

Voting behavior is complex.

[EmseB]

Black men kneeling for the anthem are disrespecting our soldiers and military, but a white billionaire mocking Gold Star families and POWs ("I like soldiers who don't get captured") is not disrespectful?  Black men kneeling in peaceful protest = "spitting on the graves of WWII soldiers," but a president who refers to Nazis as "very fine people" when they march through the streets chanting "make America white again" is respectful to those who died at the hands of the Nazis?

 

That is the blatant, disgusting face of racism in America right now.

 

...except I could point you to a dozen articles from people of all stripes who were not okay with any of the above.

[Barb_]

Except that many people don't vote their self interests.

 

Voting behavior is complex.

Agree. Just that I think it explains the larger trends from liberal to conservative , at least where economics are concerned.

[MercyA]

I agree with you that these examples are disgusting.

But I don't see them here, not from anyone.

 

There was a time when I would have said exactly the same thing, that I never saw any overt racism in my community.

 

And then an older man at my former church, someone I had known for 30 years, said "Just like a *igger" when Obama had the audacity to take a vacation. 

 

Someone else, again at my former church, said, "Those people [blacks] only get off their butts to protest." 

 

These were people that I knew and loved. I was shocked.

 

I found out that a good friend of my parents, an black pastor, was afraid to come to my town at night. MY town! A little farming town in the midwest.

 

I am seeing Confederate flags all over the place.

 

Racism is alive and well, and people aren't keeping their ugly thoughts to themselves anymore. We can't afford to be silent.

[Barb_]

Who is saying they can't do this?

 

.

Are you serious?

 

Well the president of the United States, for one.

[MercyA]

I don't know if it's normal or not. Both DH and I have become much more liberal as we've aged.

 

I've become much more liberal, as have my parents and my sister. DH is about the same, because he's pretty much always been on the right side of things.  ;)

 

When I was growing up, we were a Reagan-idolizing, Rush Limbaugh-listening, flag-waving family. Now my sister wants an "I kneel with Kap" t-shirt and my mom has a RESIST sticker on her car and I'm an animal- and peace-loving hippie.

 

Still Bible-believing Christians and still unapologetically pro-life.

 

Go figure.  :)

[Barb_]

There was a time when I would have said exactly the same thing, that I never saw any overt racism in my community.

 

And then an older man at my former church, someone I had known for 30 years, said "Just like a *igger" when Obama had the audacity to take a vacation.

 

Someone else, again at my former church, said, "Those people [blacks] only get off their butts to protest."

 

These were people that I knew and loved. I was shocked.

 

I found out that a good friend of my parents, an black pastor, was afraid to come to my town at night. MY town! A little farming town in the midwest.

 

I am seeing Confederate flags all over the place.

 

Racism is alive and well, and people aren't keeping their ugly thoughts to themselves anymore. We can't afford to be silent.

A sweet little old lady in the store patted my hand the other day and told me how nice it was to see a white family having many children.

[MercyA]

A sweet little old lady in the store patted my hand the other day and told me how nice it was to see a white family having many children.

 

:eek: I think I would have been struck speechless. Unbelievable.

[Barb_]

:eek: I think I would have been struck speechless. Unbelievable.

I was. Literally. I'm ashamed that I had absolutely nothing to say in return. My first thought was, "Surely she didn't mean what I think she means." Then of course I thought of fifteen things I could have said five minutes after I walked away.

[Corraleno]

Except that many people don't vote their self interests.

 

Voting behavior is complex.

 

And politicians know exactly how to get people to vote against their self-interests. Lyndon Johnson said:

 

"If you can convince the lowest white man he's better than the best colored man, he won't notice you're picking his pocket. Hell, give him somebody to look down on, and he'll empty his pockets for you."

 

And now we can add Mexicans, Muslims, refugees, and immigrants to the groups we look down on while wealthy politicians and insurance executives pick our pockets. 

[ktgrok]

:eek: I think I would have been struck speechless. Unbelievable.

 

That's the problem that is exactly what happens. 

 

At the dog park someone that seemed like a very nice guy, younger than me, who I will call Gus, was recounting how the cops came out the other day because someone was kicking his dog. Gus's dog had jumped on the guy, but his dog isn't big and wasn't being aggressive, just obnoxious. And it IS a dog park. Anyway, the guy freaked out, kicked Gus'sdog many times over and over, and a bystander called the police. 

 

So then Gus tells me that the police officer refused to doing anything about it "because he is black." I guess the kicking guy was also black, so in Gus's mind that is why the police didn't arrest the guy or something. Not because maybe there was nothing he could do in a he said/she said case that he hadn't actually witnessed. (kicker was saying the dog was being aggressive and he'd been defending himself. He may have believed that). Not because Gus should have had his dog under control (he should have). Not for any reason, other than the color of the cop's skin. Totally a racist statement. 

 

And I froze up and had no idea what to say. I was so shocked that this guy I thought was so nice was actually racist I just couldn't put any words together. I'm dreading seeing him again. 

 

SaveSave

[Guest]

Can we get it off politics and assuming the motives of the people we don't agree with? Thanks.

[Scarlett]

I was. Literally. I'm ashamed that I had absolutely nothing to say in return. My first thought was, "Surely she didn't mean what I think she means." Then of course I thought of fifteen things I could have said five minutes after I walked away.

I totally get the inability to speak in the face of such shocking comments. I like to think ahead and be ready but some of these things are so far out you just can't prepare.

[KarenC]

Black men kneeling for the anthem are disrespecting our soldiers and military, but a white billionaire mocking Gold Star families and POWs ("I like soldiers who don't get captured") is not disrespectful?  Black men kneeling in peaceful protest = "spitting on the graves of WWII soldiers," but a president who refers to Nazis as "very fine people" when they march through the streets chanting "make America white again" is respectful to those who died at the hands of the Nazis?

 

That is the blatant, disgusting face of racism in America right now.

No kidding.  The hypocrisy truly amazes me.

[goldberry]

...except I could point you to a dozen articles from people of all stripes who were not okay with any of the above.

 

Maybe that's true.  I know too many people who said they were not okay with it, but still were willing to elect that person to lead our country.  They think the athletes taking a knee should be fired.  So, it doesn't disqualify someone from being president of our country, but it should disqualify someone from being a football player?  I'm just saying some self-examination might be in order for people that think that way. 

 

[Barb_]

Can we get it off politics and assuming the motives of the people we don't agree with? Thanks.

Speaking for myself, that isn't what I'm doing. I am saying that open culture war has emboldened a subset of people who used to feel like they had to keep their racist comments hidden. That chunk of people has been well represented in social media during this NFL thing. I'm not ascribing motives to anyone in this conversation, but there is no denying it exists, which is why the protests are needed in the first place

Edited September 27, 2017 by Barb_

[Catwoman]

I was. Literally. I'm ashamed that I had absolutely nothing to say in return. My first thought was, "Surely she didn't mean what I think she means." Then of course I thought of fifteen things I could have said five minutes after I walked away.

You shouldn't feel ashamed, Barb! :grouphug:

 

Things like that happen so fast that you have only a few seconds to respond -- and those few seconds are usually filled with thoughts like, "I must have heard her wrong," or just the idea that, a moment earlier, the person had seemed so nice that you would have never expected that kind of comment to come out of their mouth. Also, most of us probably have the ingrained habit of being polite, sweet, and respectful to little old ladies -- and in your case, the little old lady was actually trying to be sweet, which made it even more awkward to come up with a quick response.

 

I know it has happened to me, too, and a few minutes later, I was kicking myself for not having responded differently, but in the moment it happened, I just stood there like an idiot. When someone is rude or obviously obnoxious, it's easy to immediately come up with the right thing to say in response, but those sweet little old ladies make it a lot harder!

Edited September 27, 2017 by Catwoman

[goldberry]

Can we get it off politics and assuming the motives of the people we don't agree with? Thanks.

 

Whaa?  This whole controversy is about assuming the motives of those players in opposition to what they and others are actually saying are their motives.  There would be no controversy otherwise.

[Catwoman]

I totally get the inability to speak in the face of such shocking comments. I like to think ahead and be ready but some of these things are so far out you just can't prepare.

I blame little old ladies. :D

[Barb_]

You shouldn't feel ashamed, Barb! :grouphug:

 

Things like that happen so fast that you have only a few seconds to respond -- and those few seconds are usually filled with thoughts like, "I must have heard her wrong," or just the idea that, a moment earlier, the person had seemed so nice that you would have never expected that kind of comment to come out of their mouth. Also, most of us probably have the ingrained habit of being polite, sweet, and respectful to little old ladies -- and in your case, the little old lady was actually trying to be sweet, which made it even more awkward to come up with a quick response.

 

I know it has happened to me, too, and a few minutes later, I was kicking myself for not having responded differently, but in the moment it happened, I just stood there like an idiot. When someone is rude or obviously obnoxious, it's easy to immediately come up with the right thing to say in response, but those sweet little old ladies make it a lot harder!

Thanks, Cat. That is indeed exactly how it went down. Right up to the confused and awkward smile.

[Guest]

Whaa? This whole controversy is about assuming the motives of those players in opposition to what they and others are actually saying are their motives. There would be no controversy otherwise.

It's really not. My stated objections to this were never about why they were doing it, but whether it was appropriate to the venue and their job as players in sports entertainment. And that's besides the point of this veering back into calling everyone we disagree with selfish, greedy racists, which is what the last half page has been veering toward.

[ktgrok]

Thanks, Cat. That is indeed exactly how it went down. Right up to the confused and awkward smile.

 

Yup. Another incident recently, I mentioned something about a money (I forget why I was talking about monkeys) and a guy said, "oh, you saw that over in _____ area, right?"  And then he winked knowingly. He was referring to a neighbhorhood that is predominantly black. I was so confused trying to figure out why he would think there were primates in that area, until it hit me, after he'd walked off, that he was referring to black people as monkeys. I felt so gross because I'd half nodded like an idiot trying to figure out what he was talking about. 

[MercyA]

I was. Literally. I'm ashamed that I had absolutely nothing to say in return. My first thought was, "Surely she didn't mean what I think she means." Then of course I thought of fifteen things I could have said five minutes after I walked away.

 

That's me, almost all the time!  :o I will always regret not saying anything substantial to an elderly lady who started chatting to me about interracial marriage in a negative way. I think she thought I must agree with her. I am terrible at thinking of the right words to say in the moment.

 

I think I need some stock phrases to buy myself time while I get my head together. Maybe something like, "Oh, what makes you say that?" or "I'm sorry, could you repeat that?"

[Homebody2]

I was. Literally. I'm ashamed that I had absolutely nothing to say in return. My first thought was, "Surely she didn't mean what I think she means." Then of course I thought of fifteen things I could have said five minutes after I walked away.

A few months ago, I went to get my oil changed. I live in a very large city. A worker, a white woman in her thirties, greeted me at my car and arranged for another employee to come and get my car to drive it over to the oil change area. That employee, a young black man, came over and got in my car. As he drove off, the white employee said, "oh don't worry, he's not stealing your car. I can vouch for him. He's my friend." Then she laughed and said, "oh, can I say that?" I was stunned! She kept laughing as she walked away. I know I should have said something, but I was just too shocked in the moment to mutter a word.

[Catwoman]

Yup. Another incident recently, I mentioned something about a money (I forget why I was talking about monkeys) and a guy said, "oh, you saw that over in _____ area, right?" And then he winked knowingly. He was referring to a neighbhorhood that is predominantly black. I was so confused trying to figure out why he would think there were primates in that area, until it hit me, after he'd walked off, that he was referring to black people as monkeys. I felt so gross because I'd half nodded like an idiot trying to figure out what he was talking about.

Sometimes a comment is just so unexpected and shocking that we can't process it right away, and by the time our brain figures it out, the person has already walked away.

 

I think the person's delivery makes a difference, too. When someone says something in a very casual, offhand way, it's harder to immediately identify it as being something awful, because for a minute there, it's just part of the conversation and you can't really imagine that this seemingly pleasant person could have said something so offensive... until you realize that they did exactly that.

[MercyA]

You shouldn't feel ashamed, Barb! :grouphug:

 

Things like that happen so fast that you have only a few seconds to respond -- and those few seconds are usually filled with thoughts like, "I must have heard her wrong," or just the idea that, a moment earlier, the person had seemed so nice that you would have never expected that kind of comment to come out of their mouth. Also, most of us probably have the ingrained habit of being polite, sweet, and respectful to little old ladies -- and in your case, the little old lady was actually trying to be sweet, which made it even more awkward to come up with a quick response.

 

I know it has happened to me, too, and a few minutes later, I was kicking myself for not having responded differently, but in the moment it happened, I just stood there like an idiot. When someone is rude or obviously obnoxious, it's easy to immediately come up with the right thing to say in response, but those sweet little old ladies make it a lot harder!

 

Yes!!! I didn't even read this before I posted my own sweet little old lady story, above. They disarm us for sure.  ;)

 

I agree that Barb and Katie shouldn't feel ashamed. We do the best we can, usually!

[goldberry]

It's really not. My stated objections to this were never about why they were doing it, but whether it was appropriate to the venue and their job as players in sports entertainment. 

 

That may be your point, but that is the point all over the place, that they disrespect the military, are hating on the flag, and being ungrateful to America.  They said why they are doing it, and it is none of those things.

 

ETA, concerns about appropriateness and effectiveness don't usually lead to the level of vitriol we are seeing from most out there.  

Edited September 27, 2017 by goldberry

[Barb_]

Yeah and then you think, "What is it about me that makes you assume I would be on board with that idea?"

 

Actually I think that's going to become my stock phrase.

[Scarlett]

Yeah and then you think, "What is it about me that makes you assume I would be on board with that idea?"

 

Actually I think that's going to become my stock phrase.

 

 

Or 'what do you mean exactly?'  

 

I have all kinds of good ideas.  And I have my own 'little old lady' story!  I have told it here  before.....the sweet little old lady neighbor who lamented with a sad shake of her head that she had sold her beautiful home in the  next town over 'to the blacks.'  

 

I literally could not form words.  And I am never at a loss for words!

[8circles]

It's really not. My stated objections to this were never about why they were doing it, but whether it was appropriate to the venue and their job as players in sports entertainment. And that's besides the point of this veering back into calling everyone we disagree with selfish, greedy racists, which is what the last half page has been veering toward.

 

And that you and your friends don't want to hear about other people's problems anymore, you and your friends just want to be entertained.

 

Oh, & the NFL is losing money.

 

We got you.

[Guest]

And that you and your friends don't want to hear about other people's problems anymore, you and your friends just want to be entertained.

 

Oh, & the NFL is losing money.

 

We got you.

Well, I gave quite a bit more nuance than that, but that's my main objection. And, you know, ratings were down 11% over last year. I'd actually point to the larger politicization of sports being a big issue, but this is the flash point.

 

What is actually achieved by kneeling, other than annoying some of your fan base and feeding the ones who'd agree anyway, is also the question. This gesture is becoming a muddled mess.

 

I'll be polite and pretend you weren't needlessly sarcastic to thoughtful responses. The echo chamber on this thread really doesn't reflect real life, but a whole lot of us are just tired and bored and fed up. And it has nothing to do with racism. Nobody on here is arguing from a racist perspective and assuming our motives it tiresome. It's also a straw man.

Edited September 27, 2017 by Arctic Mama

[Tanaqui]

Nobody on here is arguing from a racist perspective and assuming our motives it tiresome.

 

Perhaps you should take your advice and not assume that everybody here shares your non-racist perspective. Can you really say for certain that everybody here who is against the protest is coming out of it from your motives?

Edited September 27, 2017 by Tanaqui

[Guest]

Perhaps you should take your advice and not assume that everybody here shares your non-racist perspective.

I am speaking to the commenters on this thread, who were objecting on multiple points that didn't have to do with the players being black or approval of unwarranted police violence.

 

Who was being racist? I dont remember seeing that anywhere on here. You can't ascribe negative motives to your opposition, contrary to their stated words, and then criticize them for those things hey never said and actively disclaim. No productive discussion in a reasonable society can take place with that happening.

Edited September 27, 2017 by Arctic Mama

[Homebody2]

Well, I gave quite a bit more nuance than that, but that's my main objection. And, you know, ratings were down 11% over last year. I'd actually point to the larger politicization of sports being a big issue, but this is the flash point.

 

What is actually achieved by kneeling, other than annoying some of your fan base and feeding the ones who'd agree anyway, is also the question. This gesture is becoming a muddled mess.

 

I'll be polite and pretend you weren't needlessly sarcastic to thoughtful responses. The echo chamber on this thread really doesn't reflect real life, but a whole lot of us are just tired and bored and fed up. And it has nothing to do with racism. Nobody on here is arguing from a racist perspective and assuming our motives it tiresome. It's also a straw man.

I actually get what you are saying, and I'm glad that you've posted in this conversation.

[goldberry]

And it has nothing to do with racism. 

 

But for some people it clearly does, based on the directly racist comments out there.  Maybe it does have nothing to do with racism for you.  I have no idea how you responded to actions of white people that have been directly disrespectful of the military, and perhaps you responded the same way to all of those.  I'm saying that for people whose responses might not be altogether consistent in that area, they might want to ask themselves why.

 

There is a vocal community out there that is revealing how directly this does have to do with racism.  A poster on another thread said that in response to kids taking a knee on their local team, other kids started wearing confederate flag attire.  Confederate flag, not American flag.  You might want to keep an open mind if you don't think this is about racism for a lot of people.