Question on Under-Represented Minority (URM)

[DonHomeschool]

Hello Everyone,

 

Excuse my ignorance, but I do not want to “leave no stone unturned.† If various DNA tests shows an ethnic indigenous makeup between 10 to 12%, can the college applicant be considered as an URM?  Thanks.

[Sneezyone]

URM designations for indigenous groups, while self-reported, are generally based on tribal membership, cultural connections and participation. I would not claim to be a member of an indigenous group for admissions or employment purposes absent those things. YMMV.

[chiguirre]

Are you Hispanic? It's pretty common to have indigenous or African DNA if you have roots in Latin America. The rules to be considered for the National Merit Hispanic Recognition Program are:

 

 

To be eligible, you must be at least one-quarter Hispanic/Latino. Hispanic/Latino is an ethnic category, not a racial category, so you can be of any race.

 

You must have ancestors from at least one of these countries: Argentina, Bolivia, Brazil, Chile, Colombia, Costa Rica, Cuba, Dominican Republic, Ecuador, El Salvador, Guatemala, Honduras, Mexico, Nicaragua, Panama, Paraguay, Peru, Puerto Rico, Spain, Uruguay, or Venezuela.

 

[dereksurfs]

Are you Hispanic? It's pretty common to have indigenous or African DNA if you have roots in Latin America. The rules to be considered for the National Merit Hispanic Recognition Program are:

 

 

To be eligible, you must be at least one-quarter Hispanic/Latino. Hispanic/Latino is an ethnic category, not a racial category, so you can be of any race.

 

You must have ancestors from at least one of these countries: Argentina, Bolivia, Brazil, Chile, Colombia, Costa Rica, Cuba, Dominican Republic, Ecuador, El Salvador, Guatemala, Honduras, Mexico, Nicaragua, Panama, Paraguay, Peru, Puerto Rico, Spain, Uruguay, or Venezuela.

 

Hi Chiguirre,

 

Thanks for posting this. it is very interesting indeed. I am half Hispanic with ancestors originating from Spain. Although I never pursued this for myself while in school, I am wondering about it for our children. We also have a Spanish surname though they are only one-quarter Spanish. I think it is at least worth looking into more now that you've mentioned it. I guess I thought since they were only one-quarter it might not qualify them. But who makes up these rules, anyway, and decides who is or isn't? I am guessing it can vary from program to program. But at least for the one you've mentioned above our kids appear to qualify. So thank you again!  ;)  :)

Edited May 21, 2017 by dereksurfs

[DonHomeschool]

Chiguirre,

 

We are a very mixed family.  It is interesting that governments and organizations define who can be considered indigenous, Hispanic, or any other ethnicity/race, which can be confusing.  For instance, an African-American family adopting a child from Asia; is the child Asian or African-American for the college application?  Moreover, someone whose family immigrated from Argentina to Brazil over 100 years ago; is the applicant still considered Hispanic or Brazilian after so many generations living in Brazil?

 

Therefore, I am going to advise the college applicant to duplicate what I did when I applied to colleges (not to apply as a URM).  That way, no one will be accused of taking advantage of the process. 

 

Thanks for your input.

[Jazzy]

How do the schools know whether or not a student is URM? Is it indicated on the transcript?

[Sneezyone]

How do the schools know whether or not a student is URM? Is it indicated on the transcript?

 

It is self-reported on the application; it's not required and is not generally listed on a transcript.

Edited May 22, 2017 by Sneezyone

[chiguirre]

How do the schools know whether or not a student is URM? Is it indicated on the transcript?

 

You check the box like you do on every other form. Most of the time, your ethnicity or race are pretty obvious to the casual observer.

[....]

Most of the time, your ethnicity or race are pretty obvious to the casual observer.

 

Not for people who are mixed race.  I have 5 kids - 2 look completely Korean, 2 look Caucasian (they even have thin, blonde hair) and one looks like no one else (she looks almost Middle Eastern - is the best I can describe it).  We don't know which boxes to check, either.  We've had several conversations about it and our entire household is confused.   :confused:   

[Hilltopmom]

You check the box like you do on every other form. Most of the time, your ethnicity or race are pretty obvious to the casual observer.

Or.. If you don't know, because the child was adopted without info on both bio parents.

 

My dd as darker skin & curly hair but her bio mom is pale with red hair, no known bio dad (but probably not Caucasian, from her coloring) so we "don't know her race", period.

Never know what box to check.

Edited May 22, 2017 by Hilltopmom

[katilac]

 

Never know what box to check.

 

 

The most helpful box. 

[Sneezyone]

Or, you check nothing and let the child decide how he/she wants to identify/self-identifies later in life.

[....]

Or, you check nothing and let the child decide how he/she wants to identify/self-identifies later in life.

 

I'm not trying to be argumentative, but from my experience with my family, they identify with *everything* that they are.  YKWIM?  

 

Also, dd15 went to a public school Kindergarten.  I got into an argument with the front desk, because when I filled out her registration paperwork, there was the "check your box" question and it was "mark ONLY one".  Ummmmm....  Dh and I aren't just different races, we were born on different continents.  We all stood there for like ten minutes trying to figure out what to do.  If I would've left it blank, the front desk lady would've just checked something herself, I'm sure.

 

Also, another question my kids have talked about.  What if their appearance doesn't fit the stereotype of what they're checking?  Like I said, two of mine actually have dark blonde hair - but they have Korean names.    

 

FWIW, I think when they are pressured, they end up checking "Asian".   

[Hilltopmom]

Yeah, part of the problem is those boxes need to be updated!

 

I've seen some recently that had the option to check "multi racial" or "prefer not to answer", I've never seen "unknown" & that pisses me off.

[Sneezyone]

I'm not trying to be argumentative, but from my experience with my family, they identify with *everything* that they are. YKWIM?

 

Also, dd15 went to a public school Kindergarten. I got into an argument with the front desk, because when I filled out her registration paperwork, there was the "check your box" question and it was "mark ONLY one". Ummmmm.... Dh and I aren't just different races, we were born on different continents. We all stood there for like ten minutes trying to figure out what to do. If I would've left it blank, the front desk lady would've just checked something herself, I'm sure.

 

Also, another question my kids have talked about. What if their appearance doesn't fit the stereotype of what they're checking? Like I said, two of mine actually have dark blonde hair - but they have Korean names.

 

FWIW, I think when they are pressured, they end up checking "Asian".

I don't think my statement and what you wrote are in conflict. My suggestion is merely that folks allow children to select (or not) one or many groups with which they identify. I never said check just one and have many multiracial friends and family members who do check more than one box without issue. In less provincial areas, multiracial options are increasingly available. I don't think it's anyone's place to choose for them. My best friend is Taiwanese and black and she identifies primarily as Asian. She was raised overseas, speaks three Asian languages, and is a practicing Buddhist. Her life, her choice are based on what feels most comfortable for her. Edited May 23, 2017 by Sneezyone

[Renai]

I don't think my statement and what you wrote are in conflict. My suggestion is merely that folks allow children to select (or not) one or many groups with which they identify. I never said check just one and have many multiracial friends and family members who do check more than one box without issue. In less provincial areas, multiracial options are increasingly available. I don't think it's anyone's place to choose for them. My best friend is Taiwanese and black and she identifies primarily as Asian. She was raised overseas, speaks three Asian languages, and is a practicing Buddhist. Her life, her choice are based on what feels most comfortable for her.

That's fine when they are older and can decide, but like Evanthe said, there is a problem when only one box can be checked and a family identifies the child as more than one. It has happened to my daughter and others in prek. I was the preK teacher and took it to state levels because the computer system would only accept one answer, and they had changed the system so Hispanic was one of the choices. So, for example, I couldn't choose Black and Hispanic. (Teachers were responsible for inputting this information.) It was stupid. And in New Mexico where they should know better!

 

"What does the family identify as?"

- Well, the woman is a Black Columbian who married an American Caucasian.

- Well, the woman is a Black American who married a Mexican Indian (how he identifies himself).

- Well, the woman is a Mexican National who married a man from India.

 

Etc. They are immersed in all their cultures and couldn't choose one. I certainly wasn't choosing for them either.

[plansrme]

I have never checked one of those boxes for me or my kids (one of whom was adopted from China but has the whitest parents you can imagine), and no one has ever given me any pushback on it.  I either leave it blank or check "prefer not to answer."

 

This reminds me of one of my friends who is planning to use her kids' Hispanic status to get them into an Ivy.  My friend, an Ivy graduate herself, with a law degree and an M.B.A. for good measure, is blonde haired/blue eyed; her husband, a U.S.-educated engineer, is from a Spanish-speaking country but has a German last name and looks as white as I do.  Her kids are in expensive, competitive private schools.  Somehow, I'm not sure her kiddos are the applicants for whom URM slots are designed.

[Ann.without.an.e]

 

 

Also, another question my kids have talked about.  What if their appearance doesn't fit the stereotype of what they're checking?  Like I said, two of mine actually have dark blonde hair - but they have Korean names.    

 

  

 

 

Just a story with no real purpose, haha.  DD went to a fly in program at Rice.  She had befriended another young lady and their interviews were back to back.  DD waited on her to finish her interview so they could walk to the social together.  This young lady came out of the room so upset, to the point of tears.  She was a strawberry blonde and white but also half hispanic.  She didn't speak spanish, she didn't look hispanic.  The interviewer focused all of her questions on her culture and diversity.  The poor girl had no idea how to respond.  "Have you at times felt isolated because of your race?" Ummm, she looks white.  "How has your Latin culture changed your outlook on life?"  Ummm, she wasn't raised with a latin culture.  She felt so lost about it all. 

[Jean in Newcastle]

I just asked Dd (at the doctor's office) what she wants to be today. Multiple choices are valid.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Sneezyone]

That's fine when they are older and can decide, but like Evanthe said, there is a problem when only one box can be checked and a family identifies the child as more than one. It has happened to my daughter and others in prek. I was the preK teacher and took it to state levels because the computer system would only accept one answer, and they had changed the system so Hispanic was one of the choices. So, for example, I couldn't choose Black and Hispanic. (Teachers were responsible for inputting this information.) It was stupid. And in New Mexico where they should know better!

 

"What does the family identify as?"

- Well, the woman is a Black Columbian who married an American Caucasian.

- Well, the woman is a Black American who married a Mexican Indian (how he identifies himself).

- Well, the woman is a Mexican National who married a man from India.

 

Etc. They are immersed in all their cultures and couldn't choose one. I certainly wasn't choosing for them either.

 

I've yet to have anyone make me check a box for me or my kids. In fact, most of the time the information is labeled optional or voluntary. I would push back on that, hard. 

[katilac]

I have never checked one of those boxes for me or my kids (one of whom was adopted from China but has the whitest parents you can imagine), and no one has ever given me any pushback on it.  I either leave it blank or check "prefer not to answer."

 

This reminds me of one of my friends who is planning to use her kids' Hispanic status to get them into an Ivy.  My friend, an Ivy graduate herself, with a law degree and an M.B.A. for good measure, is blonde haired/blue eyed; her husband, a U.S.-educated engineer, is from a Spanish-speaking country but has a German last name and looks as white as I do.  Her kids are in expensive, competitive private schools.  Somehow, I'm not sure her kiddos are the applicants for whom URM slots are designed.

 

Lots of Hispanics have blonde hair and blue eyes! It's not cool to say that looking white, whatever that means, negates your ethnicity.  

 

Pretty much every organization that 'defines' Hispanics clearly state that it is an ethnic, not a racial category, and that the criteria is having ancestors from certain parts of the world. The end.

 

You are assuming that all URM slots are meant for the underprivileged as well as the underrepresented, but that isn't always so. Schools do like to increase their ethnic diversity, just as they like to increase their regional diversity. If their intent is restricted to the underprivileged, then your friend's zip code will tell them all they need to know.

 

If they are Hispanic, then they are Hispanic, and they are not being deceitful by checking that box. Colleges are well aware that not all URMs are underprivileged.  

[Sneezyone]

Just a story with no real purpose, haha.  DD went to a fly in program at Rice.  She had befriended another young lady and their interviews were back to back.  DD waited on her to finish her interview so they could walk to the social together.  This young lady came out of the room so upset, to the point of tears.  She was a strawberry blonde and white but also half hispanic.  She didn't speak spanish, she didn't look hispanic.  The interviewer focused all of her questions on her culture and diversity.  The poor girl had no idea how to respond.  "Have you at times felt isolated because of your race?" Ummm, she looks white.  "How has your Latin culture changed your outlook on life?"  Ummm, she wasn't raised with a latin culture.  She felt so lost about it all. 

 

This is why I think these designations should be claimed by those who have some sort of connection, beyond blood quantum, to the ethnic/cultural/racial group being claimed. If you read some of the things posted on med school admissions chat boards, people are often bitten in the butt by those sorts of questions during interviews.

[....]

Lots of Hispanics have blonde hair and blue eyes! 

 

 

We have a good homeschooling friend with blonde hair/blue eyes who is from Mexico.  

 

Also, the story about the kid whose dad was from a South American country with a German last name...from my not-so-great history knowledge, don't they have a big population in South America whose ancestors emigrated from Germany in the early 20th century?  (and I'm not talking about the WW2/alien conspiracy theories - Lol)

 

And having multiple boxes to check would be great!  I'm glad to hear some places are moving to that.  

[....]

 The interviewer focused all of her questions on her culture and diversity.  

 

I don't know how I would feel about that.  This would probably make my teens uncomfortable- to be perfectly honest.  I don't know...    

[maize]

Yes to these things not being black-or-white for many, many people.

 

Those boxes exist because data gatherers want everything to fit into tidy discrete categories--so much easier to work with than the complexities of actual human backgrounds.

[maize]

I don't know how I would feel about that. This would probably make my teens uncomfortable- to be perfectly honest. I don't know...

And then too, being Asian can actually work against a person in college applications. I know one mixed white American/Korean couple who planned to give their kids the American sounding surname specifically to mask the Asian part of their background for college/graduate admissions purposes.

 

Kids with Asian backgrounds have the lowest admissions rates at elite colleges.

[....]

And then too, being Asian can actually work against a person in college applications. I know one mixed white American/Korean couple who planned to give their kids the American sounding surname specifically to mask the Asian part of their background for college/graduate admissions purposes.

 

Kids with Asian backgrounds have the lowest admissions rates at elite colleges.

 

Yes, my FIL made dh and his brother change their names to English names when they became US citizens (as teens).

 

And Asian students and their admission rates...I heard that before and I am worried about it.  To make it worse, all 4 of my oldest kids want to be some form of doctor.   :(  

 

We're probably starting off at community college anyway (yet, another hurdle - Lol).

[katilac]

Just a story with no real purpose, haha.  DD went to a fly in program at Rice.  She had befriended another young lady and their interviews were back to back.  DD waited on her to finish her interview so they could walk to the social together.  This young lady came out of the room so upset, to the point of tears.  She was a strawberry blonde and white but also half hispanic.  She didn't speak spanish, she didn't look hispanic.  The interviewer focused all of her questions on her culture and diversity.  The poor girl had no idea how to respond.  "Have you at times felt isolated because of your race?" Ummm, she looks white.  "How has your Latin culture changed your outlook on life?"  Ummm, she wasn't raised with a latin culture.  She felt so lost about it all. 

 

I would find that weird unless she was applying for a scholarship or program specifically related to her ethnicity, or if she included her ethnicity in her essay. The first one has a perfectly good answer, though: "Because my appearance doesn't fit the Hispanic stereotype, I haven't faced the isolation or many of the challenges that others have." The second one is harder, but applicants do need to be prepared to steer the conversation when they get a weird or unexpected question. 

 

And I would find it weird and unexpected for an interviewer to focus on this so strongly. Would they do the same for other URMs? Why or why not? If a black applicant did no more than check the appropriate box, would the interview be focused on their 'blackness' and how it affected them? An Asian applicant? I don't think it would, again unless they were bringing it up themselves or applying under a special program. 

[justasque]

I don't know how I would feel about that.  This would probably make my teens uncomfortable- to be perfectly honest.  I don't know...    

 

I am guessing that a box was checked, and the interviewer was evaluating the student for possible scholarships, etc. based on the box checked.  If the box is designed to help the school get some culturally diverse students, because such diversity leads to good classroom discussions, etc., then it's no good if all the students selected weren't raised in the culture they indicated on their admissions forms.  Like it or not, if you're going for a "diversity slot", esp. in an Ivy, you had better be prepared to discuss said diversity.  (And from what I've seen helping a couple of "diversity slot" students write their application essays, if you are a good fit for such slots, there will be plenty to discuss.  The student may need some help in understanding what kinds of things may be of interest to the school, especially if they are things that may have been previously seen by the student as liabilities, or as just normal everyday life in their household.  And yes, that can be uncomfortable.)

Edited May 23, 2017 by justasque

[Sneezyone]

I am guessing that a box was checked, and the interviewer was evaluating the student for possible scholarships, etc. based on the box checked.  If the box is designed to help the school get some culturally diverse students, because such diversity leads to good classroom discussions, etc., then it's no good if all the students selected weren't raised in the culture they indicated on their admissions forms.  Like it or not, if you're going for a "diversity slot", esp. in an Ivy, you had better be prepared to discuss said diversity.  (And from what I've seen helping a couple of "diversity slot" students write their application essays, if you are a good fit for such slots, there will be plenty to discuss.  The student may need some help in understanding what kinds of things may be of interest to the school, especially if they are things that may have been previously seen by the student as liabilities, or as just normal everyday life in their household.  And yes, that can be uncomfortable.)

 

This. My college interviewer 20+ years ago asked similar questions.

 

If, for example, med schools are filling URM slots, often it's with the aim of bringing some much needed awareness of an URM group to the medical profession. If you can't answer those questions with some measure of authenticity, your ability to enrich the school in that way is diminished.

Edited May 23, 2017 by Sneezyone

[plansrme]

Lots of Hispanics have blonde hair and blue eyes! It's not cool to say that looking white, whatever that means, negates your ethnicity.  

 

Pretty much every organization that 'defines' Hispanics clearly state that it is an ethnic, not a racial category, and that the criteria is having ancestors from certain parts of the world. The end.

 

You are assuming that all URM slots are meant for the underprivileged as well as the underrepresented, but that isn't always so. Schools do like to increase their ethnic diversity, just as they like to increase their regional diversity. If their intent is restricted to the underprivileged, then your friend's zip code will tell them all they need to know.

 

If they are Hispanic, then they are Hispanic, and they are not being deceitful by checking that box. Colleges are well aware that not all URMs are underprivileged.  

 

Oh, I am not claiming her kids aren't half-Hispanic or half-anything or that she is being deceitful.  There is, however, nothing "underrepresented" about these kids--they're affluent, private-school-educated children of a two affluent, private-school-educated parents.  They certainly have never felt or been at any sort of disadvantage because of their half-Hispanic status, and my friend is the first to tell you that.  I imagine HYP, etc., have mountains of applicants with nearly-identical backgrounds, thus negating the "U" in "URM."  Of course, HYP can admit whomever they want; but if the point of considering URM status is to bring ethnic diversity to the campus, these kiddos aren't going to do that.

[daijobu]

This all reminds me of how bad it used to be.  At my first "real" job after college with a government contractor, I needed to complete a form and check the race box.  This was early 90s.  What were my choices?

 

White

Black

Red

Yellow

 

I'm not even kidding.   :thumbdown:

[maize]

This all reminds me of how bad it used to be. At my first "real" job after college with a government contractor, I needed to complete a form and check the race box. This was early 90s. What were my choices?

 

White

Black

Red

Yellow

 

I'm not even kidding. :thumbdown:

Eek!

 

And seriously--no human is any of those colors!

 

I have always found the designation "white" to be really weird--a person whose skin color was actually white would look awfully weird. Not even my albino friend has coloring approaching white. Same goes for black, though some Africans do have very dark skin. African Americans are usually not even dark brown in skin tone. And yellow or red?!?

[maize]

Pretty picture here showing normal human skin tone variations. Who could look at any of those and designate colors such as white, yellow, red, or black?

 

 

http://humanorigins.si.edu/evidence/genetics/human-skin-color-variation

Edited May 24, 2017 by maize

[Renai]

I've yet to have anyone make me check a box for me or my kids. In fact, most of the time the information is labeled optional or voluntary. I would push back on that, hard. 

 

It was on an online software and there was no way off the registration page without checking something. This is why I got up to state levels with the question (I still have the email thread). They're changing the program this upcoming school year.

[Sneezyone]

It was on an online software and there was no way off the registration page without checking something. This is why I got up to state levels with the question (I still have the email thread). They're changing the program this upcoming school year.

 

Glad to hear it's being fixed.

[dereksurfs]

This all reminds me of how bad it used to be.  At my first "real" job after college with a government contractor, I needed to complete a form and check the race box.  This was early 90s.  What were my choices?

 

White

Black

Red

Yellow

 

I'm not even kidding.   :thumbdown:

 

Sorry, but I've got to ask because this sounds so ridiculous. What part of the country was this? In this kind of warped ethnic categorization, where would Hispanic fall? Somewhere between red/yellow? lol  :tongue_smilie:

[Laura in CA]

And I would find it weird and unexpected for an interviewer to focus on this so strongly. Would they do the same for other URMs? Why or why not? If a black applicant did no more than check the appropriate box, would the interview be focused on their 'blackness' and how it affected them? An Asian applicant? I don't think it would, again unless they were bringing it up themselves or applying under a special program. 

 

 

Asians are not considered URMs. (I'm sure most people know that; just wanted to point it out.)

 

In fact, Asians are over-represented at most CA unis, relative to their share of the population (15%, I think, in CA). At some CA unis, whites just barely outnumber Latinos and Asians on campus (e.g., UCSC: white 33%, Latino 31%, Asian 22%); at others, the largest group is Asians or Latinos, and whites are a distant third.

 

 

As a mixed-race person myself, it is nice that these days (at least here in CA) on all the forms I've seen, race/ethnicity is optional and one can choose multiple boxes if one decides to fill it out. In fact, there is often a dizzying array of choices (including which kind of Asian or Latino, such as Japanese, Korean, Mexican, Guatemalan, etc.). For example, here is Cal State East Bay's breakdown:

 

Degree seeking undergraduate student breakdown:

0.3% American Indian or Alaskan Native 

23.8% Asian, non-Hispanic/Latino

11.0% Black or African American, non-Hispanic/Latino

31.6% Hispanic/Latino

1.0% Native Hawaiian or other Pacific Islander, non-Hispanic/Latino

16.5% White, non-Hispanic/Latino

5.5% Two or more races non-Hispanic/Latino

6.0% Nonresident Alien

4.3% Race and/or Ethnicity unknown

 

And UC Irvine's:

 

Race / ethnicity

Hispanic 26%

American Indian or Alaska native < 1%

Asian 36%

Black or African-American 2%

Native Hawaiian or other Pacific Islander <1%

White 14%

Two or More Races 4%

Non-resident alien 16%

Race / ethnicity unknown 2%

 

[....]

When I googled it (out of curiosity), it says Asians are 3.8% of the population in our state (per the 2010 census).

[....]

This all reminds me of how bad it used to be.  At my first "real" job after college with a government contractor, I needed to complete a form and check the race box.  This was early 90s.  What were my choices?

 

White

Black

Red

Yellow

 

I'm not even kidding.   :thumbdown:

 

:eek:  :eek: