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#1 Daria

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Posted 17 May 2017 - 09:07 AM

Thanks!


Edited by Daria, 17 May 2017 - 08:34 PM.


#2 regentrude

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Posted 17 May 2017 - 09:17 AM

I think a 5th year of hs makes a lot of sense in these circumstances, and you could easily explain this to colleges. However, many colleges would not consider him a freshman if you graduate him and he takes CC courses after high school graduation.

 

What does "He's no longer eligible for Dual Enrollment, because of grades, " mean? Did he get bad grades and they won't enroll him as a high schooler? Or does "because of grades" refer to him already having completed 12th grade? Does it mean you won't get state funding?

I would find out what exactly the rule is for the CC to have him enrolled while still completing high school.

 

I would think it important to be consistent. You cannot in one context declare he has finished high school and in another that he has not.


Edited by regentrude, 17 May 2017 - 09:26 AM.

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#3 JanetC

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Posted 17 May 2017 - 09:23 AM

A 5th year senior year sounds like a great but if the community college does not consider him dual enrolled, I don't see how he keeps the freshman status.

You'll need to talk to the CC and whatever schools you are applying to see whether and how he can keep freshman status.

#4 SKL

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Posted 17 May 2017 - 09:26 AM

Has it changed, because when I was in school, you were a freshman until you had __ credits.  As long as his credits are under __, why would he not be a freshman, regardless of when he applies to university?



#5 regentrude

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Posted 17 May 2017 - 09:29 AM

Has it changed, because when I was in school, you were a freshman until you had __ credits.  As long as his credits are under __, why would he not be a freshman, regardless of when he applies to university?

 

Depends on the school. Quick search found several schools that apply this definition:

 

What is the difference between a transfer and freshman applicant?

A freshman applicant is classified as any student who has not completed any college credit after graduating from high school.
A transfer applicant is any student who has completed at least one hour of college credit after graduating high school.

 

https://www.nccu.edu.../faq.cfm?id=106

 

 

Who should apply as a U.S. Freshman?

An undergraduate applicant who does not have transferable college credit, except for students enrolling in courses prior to completion of high school graduation requirements.

https://www.applytex...ml/faq_who.html

 

 

There may be other schools that allow up to a certain number of hours.


Edited by regentrude, 17 May 2017 - 09:33 AM.


#6 GGardner

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Posted 17 May 2017 - 09:34 AM

FWIW, some of the super-expensive New England prep schools now offer a "post graduate year", for students who have graduated from high school, but aren't ready for college (or maybe aren't ready for the college they'd like to go to).

 

So, if those schools can do that, I don't think you should have any qualms yourself about doing something similar, or even using the same terminology.

 



#7 regentrude

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Posted 17 May 2017 - 09:36 AM

FWIW, some of the super-expensive New England prep schools now offer a "post graduate year", for students who have graduated from high school, but aren't ready for college (or maybe aren't ready for the college they'd like to go to).

 

So, if those schools can do that, I don't think you should have any qualms yourself about doing something similar, or even using the same terminology.

 

The problem is not the 5th year of high school or doing high school coursework after graduation; the student will still be a freshman.

The problem is taking college classes in the postgrad year, which can jeopardize freshman status.


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#8 HTRMom

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Posted 17 May 2017 - 09:40 AM

Be totally honest with the counselor at the college. If it says "no longer in high school," and he's still doing high school, that's obviously dishonest.

I would also talk to someone at a university on your list of realistic options and ask them how they assign freshman-sophomore status.


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#9 GGardner

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Posted 17 May 2017 - 09:46 AM

The problem is not the 5th year of high school or doing high school coursework after graduation; the student will still be a freshman.

The problem is taking college classes in the postgrad year, which can jeopardize freshman status.

 

Most post-grad programs pitch their academics as "college-level" (whatever that means), but I'm guessing they don't transfer.  It isn't a fifth year of high school, you need to have a bona-fide hs diploma to enter.  Neither is it a freshman year of college -- these credits don't transfer into college. So, I don't see any duplicity in taking cc classes in a similar way, as a non degree seeking student, with the understanding that they would not transfer.


Edited by GGardner, 17 May 2017 - 09:48 AM.


#10 clementine

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Posted 17 May 2017 - 09:52 AM

Our dd has a friend who dual-enrolled this year and was a 'super senior'.  She was homeschooled and could have graduated last year, but her parents wanted her to gain college level, classroom experience before graduation.  She enrolled as a DE student as a senior and her mom adjusted her transcript to remove any 9th grade classes that weren't needed.  



#11 J-rap

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Posted 17 May 2017 - 10:03 AM

I think different colleges have different policies.  A couple of my kids took up to two college courses during their senior year of high school, and would have been able to begin college the next year as freshmen at some colleges they considered but not others.  Some allowed a certain number of courses, some allowed none.  One college even counted a gap year (with NO classes taken -- just travel) as an experience that required you to apply as a transfer.  

 

ETA:  I think I may have misunderstood your question.  You're wondering if taking college classes during senior year (if you add a fifth year) or after senior year would make a difference on whether he would be considered a freshman or not?  I still think every college has different requirements and you will need to check with them.  


Edited by J-rap, 17 May 2017 - 10:07 AM.


#12 regentrude

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Posted 17 May 2017 - 10:15 AM

Most post-grad programs pitch their academics as "college-level" (whatever that means), but I'm guessing they don't transfer.  It isn't a fifth year of high school, you need to have a bona-fide hs diploma to enter.  Neither is it a freshman year of college -- these credits don't transfer into college. So, I don't see any duplicity in taking cc classes in a similar way, as a non degree seeking student, with the understanding that they would not transfer.

 

But CC classes do end up on the permanent college transcript and have to be reported as college classes on an official college transcript you are required to send. 

Whether they transfer or not is decided by the final college.

 

You can teach "college level" classes at home as much as you want, or do MOOCs as self study - but the issue is enrolling in actual college courses.


Edited by regentrude, 17 May 2017 - 10:17 AM.

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#13 katilac

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Posted 17 May 2017 - 10:23 AM

Because the program specifically states "no longer attending high school" I would think that he would lose freshman status at many colleges. 

 

Why do you want him to retain freshman status? Sports or merit aid? 



#14 justasque

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Posted 17 May 2017 - 10:41 AM

If his high school or DE grades are low enough that he is not eligible for dual enrollment (is that what you meant?), then he may actually be a better applicant as a transfer than as a potential freshman.  He will need to show colleges that he is capable of college-level work, which he can do by taking a year or two at the CC.  I am assuming that the grade situation does not inhibit him from taking non-DE classes at the CC?

If, on the other hand, the issue is that you've got him labeled as a senior at the CC and thus he's not eligible for another year of DE, talk to the CC about his need for another year of high school (he's not graduating yet is enough info for them, I think) and whether he can take DE classes for another year, perhaps as self-pay if you've been getting tuition assistance previously.  Find out what their rules are, and speak their language (e.g. he doesn't have enough credits to graduate, so he is doing another year).  If his grades are decent, this would be a good approach, I think.



#15 MerryAtHope

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Posted 17 May 2017 - 12:28 PM

I'd go talk to the CC in person. Explain that your son's schooling has been interrupted by illness and that he needs another year, and that you'd like to dual enroll him, and see what they say. If illness affected his grades in other dual-enrollment courses, have ds there too to discuss the issues and why it shouldn't be an issue this time. 



#16 Daria

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Posted 17 May 2017 - 04:01 PM

. . . 


Edited by Daria, 17 May 2017 - 08:35 PM.

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#17 regentrude

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Posted 17 May 2017 - 04:06 PM

With all the information you gave: why do you need him to keep taking classes at the CC if it's chaotic and does not serve him well?

I would simply do the 5th year at home and not graduate him yet. You can use MOOCs to get some college level classwork. He can take CLEP tests to get credit.

This would completely solve the issue of freshman status.


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#18 Sebastian (a lady)

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Posted 17 May 2017 - 04:16 PM

Most post-grad programs pitch their academics as "college-level" (whatever that means), but I'm guessing they don't transfer. It isn't a fifth year of high school, you need to have a bona-fide hs diploma to enter. Neither is it a freshman year of college -- these credits don't transfer into college. So, I don't see any duplicity in taking cc classes in a similar way, as a non degree seeking student, with the understanding that they would not transfer.


Transferability is based on a. Determination by the gaining college.

In the situation being suggested, the student would be completing college courses. I think many schools would consider this to make him a transfer student unless he is clearly in high school. Saying he is no longer in high school one place and that he IS in high school other places seems like a set up for problems.

#19 reefgazer

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Posted 17 May 2017 - 04:28 PM

Do you have the option of attending another college as a dual-enrolled student (either online or in-person) where he does not have a grade of "F" on his transcript?

 

 


Edited by reefgazer, 17 May 2017 - 04:31 PM.


#20 Daria

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Posted 17 May 2017 - 04:33 PM

. . .  

 


Edited by Daria, 17 May 2017 - 08:35 PM.


#21 Daria

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Posted 17 May 2017 - 04:38 PM

. . . 

 


Edited by Daria, 17 May 2017 - 08:36 PM.


#22 MerryAtHope

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Posted 17 May 2017 - 05:04 PM

"student who is at least 16, and no longer attending high school."

 

If you do a super senior year, this is not true--he IS attending high school. Your home school is a bona fide, legal, and actual high school. 

 

A few reasons.

 

1) Because I'd like him to retake the class he failed,  to replace the grade.  Right now, he'd be applying to college with a GPA in college classes that starts with a 1, which doesn't look great.

 

Is the class offered fall and spring? Perhaps an option is for you to homeschool in the fall (maybe do the Alg 2 course double-time?) and graduate him in December, then retake the class he failed in the spring. (You could even continue with some homeschool classes in the spring that just wouldn't end up on his transcript since he officially graduated in the winter). For the CC's purposes, I don't think you have any choice between having him be either dual enrolled or a college student. I don't think they have a third status in the way that you are hoping, even if you did choose that option of "student who is at least 16, and no longer attending high school." I don't see how the class could be anything but a "college" class on a transcript. (I suspect that option is used mainly by kids taking GED courses. If they actually graduated early, they wouldn't need to use that status.)



#23 Corraleno

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Posted 17 May 2017 - 05:13 PM

I think your plan is risky given the fact that he has a PS transcript that shows credits for 8th, 9th, and 11th grade. Colleges will be able to see that he should have graduated this year, and if they contact the CC to clarify his status, they'll find out that he was enrolled as a student who was no longer in HS (i.e. graduated or dropped out), at the same time they're staring at a transcript from you that insists he was still in HS. That could cast doubt on your entire transcript.

If it were me, I'd have him work over the summer to fill in any holes in the HS transcript (could he take a language class at the other college you mentioned?), then graduate him at the end of the summer and then have him take a gap year during which he can try to knock out some additional credits via CLEP, while applying to LACs for entrance the following year as a freshman. The other option would be to just graduate him and just let him take CC courses for a year and apply as a transfer.



#24 kiana

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Posted 17 May 2017 - 05:33 PM

I really wouldn't tell the CC he's graduated and then tell another college he's not. It's the sort of thing where if it got found out later, he could end up having to repay scholarships that could be considered fraudulently obtained. There was one that hit the news a while back where Cornell found out that they hadn't gotten a transcript from a CC where the person in question had enrolled but dropped (so the only grades were W) and they expelled her and sent a bill for tens of thousands of dollars. I would seek another solution. 



#25 Daria

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Posted 17 May 2017 - 05:48 PM

. . .  

 


Edited by Daria, 17 May 2017 - 08:36 PM.


#26 scoutingmom

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Posted 17 May 2017 - 06:10 PM

But he hasn't left high school if he is still homeschooling high school.

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#27 regentrude

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Posted 17 May 2017 - 06:16 PM

We wouldn't tell the CC he's graduated.  He'd be applying as a student who does not have a HS diploma.  Once someone is 16, our local CC is open enrollment regardless of whether you have a HS diploma.   The only criteria is that you have to be 16 and have "left high school".  

 

This would work if he has "left high school",  i.e. is a high school dropout from your homeschool and will not continue his highschool education with you.

 

If you plan on having him complete further high school graduation requirements, he has NOT left high school, and this would be a misrepresentation.


Edited by regentrude, 17 May 2017 - 06:17 PM.

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#28 Corraleno

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Posted 17 May 2017 - 06:42 PM

We wouldn't tell the CC he's graduated.  He'd be applying as a student who does not have a HS diploma.  Once someone is 16, our local CC is open enrollment regardless of whether you have a HS diploma.   The only criteria is that you have to be 16 and have "left high school".  

 

If we did this, I'd make his transcript such that it is clear that he does not meet our state's graduation criteria this year, and we'd apply with that transcript.  

 

I don't consider this to be dishonest.  Right now he's on track to have the following English credits.

 

English 9 Honors (in PS)

 

English 10 Honors (online)

 

AP English Language A (1/2 credit) (online)

 

Mythology (1/2 credit) (parent designed/taught course)

 

English 12 Honors (online, should be finished soon).

 

In our district electives like Mythology don't count as one of the 4 required English credits towards graduation.  Our umbrella is happy to count it, so I could graduate him.  But they're also happy not to count it, in which case I can say "He's still in high school because of that missing English credit", and have him take AP Language B.

 

I would do something similar with math, which would mean that he doesn't have 4 years of math.  It would also mean that he doesn't have 22 credits, which is the public school expectation.

 

Given that he was in public school last year, I don't consider it unreasonable to say that we're using public school standards.  It's not like they're super high.  

 

But he hasn't left high school. You're going to lie to the CC and claim that he has left high school — either graduated or dropped out — and then you're going to tell the colleges he applies to that he hadn't left HS when he took those same courses. 

 

Quibbling over the title of a half-credit Mythology course (which could just as easily be retitled something like Myth and Epic in World Literature, to count as English), in order to justify lying to the CC is really grasping at straws. Even if you leave it as Mythology, he could easily do a half-credit in English over the summer.

 

Colleges will see that he had enough credits to graduate after 12th, but instead he spent a year taking CC classes, which would actually make him a transfer not a freshman. And you want them to disregard what they can clearly see on the transcript, and count all those courses as HS, because his mom claims that he sorta wasn't exactly really totally finished with HS yet. Do you think they will agree that an ambiguously titled half-credit in English somehow justifies an entire 13th grade of CC courses, which your DS could not enroll in without lying?

 

I don't think you fully realize the risk you are taking. You may not think it's dishonest, but college adcoms may very well see it that way. Do you really want to put your son at risk like that? 


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#29 kiana

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Posted 17 May 2017 - 06:44 PM

I honestly think you're quibbling over semantics, but okay, I will rephrase my statement as "I wouldn't tell the CC that he's not enrolled in high school while telling other colleges he was". The rest of my post stands as written. 



#30 Sebastian (a lady)

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Posted 17 May 2017 - 07:56 PM

I agree with other posters that you are creating a snarl that is very likely to look deceptive, and might result in offers of admission being rescinded if colleges think that he has claimed to have left high school on one set of applications and to still be a high school senior on another set of applications.

 

But beyond that, I don't see what you are actually gaining from this vs just graduating him and letting him attend the CC as an enrolled college student.  

 

It sounds like your ds might find starting at the CC to be a great on ramp to full time attendance at a 4 year college.  When people talk about transfer status causing problems, it is typically in the context of being eligible for less merit based aid (which is based on test scores being higher than the average student cohort) or being less likely to be accepted as a transfer student at higher selectivity schools.

 

On the other hand, there are a great many state systems that have a standardized program for students transferring from a CC to a 4 year school.  In some cases, completing the specified requirements at the CC will provide the student guaranteed enrollment in the participating 4 year school.  Plus the 2 year school courses tend to be less expensive (in our area, CC credits are about 1/3 the cost of the exact same course at the 4 year school.  They are all one university system).

 

Were he to graduate from high school and attend the CC, he would be able to retake the course he failed and also move on to the next set of coursework.  In a couple years he would apply not only with a track record of courses and college credits that may transfer, but also as a more mature and experienced student.  He doesn't have to start out as a full time 18 credit student.  He could start part time with a lighter load and then increase it next semester.  


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#31 *LC

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Posted 17 May 2017 - 11:46 PM

I completely understand wanting to make sure he is able to participate in the special freshman program at his preferred college, so I would call and find out what the prefered college suggests.

Good luck.