when your child performs better when not taught by you vent

[Halcyon]

my ds11 is a bright kid. He takes a couple of outside classes: Chemistry, Music Theory and Guitar and Piano (those last two are privates). In Chemistry, he does very well, really enjoys it, is "a joy" according to the teacher, aces all the quizzes and wins the monthly "Jeopardy" game (basically a review of all learned the prior month) each time. In Music Theory, he clearly knows his stuff, is attentive and respectful of the teacher etc etc.

 

At home, he gets very frustrated if he is asked to do more than the minimum. For example, his weakness in Latin is vocab. He knows he needs to review vocab, he is given lists to review and told to do so, but rarely does unless I harangue him. Then he gets exasperated and upset, frustrated and angry. DH is very ticked at his behavior and wants to remove priveleges and require more output, testing and "proof" that he is doing his work. I am tempted to agree. He gets very annoyed when he has to actually STUDY for things. For example, in Algebra, he can sit down, watch the video, do the work and does well. Only occasionally is he stumped and has to do extra work. But when faced with a subject, like Latin, that requires him to review, study, do chants, flashcards (meaning anything that isn't "get er done") he gets so upset. 

 

Is this attributable to his age? His maturity level? Should I really have to monitor his daily vocab review? What if he was in public school and the teacher said there was a test on Friday? It would be his responsibility, as a 6th grader, to review his work, to prepare himself...he wouldn't have me hovering over him, testing him, reminding him, goading him, prodding him. My mother and father rarely if ever were involved in my study sessions for tests at that age--if I had a test, I studied until I felt comfortable, then Imight ask my mom to quiz me. That's it. 

 

I sometimes feel as homeschoolers that I am the crutch, and that in a public school environment he would darn well learn to keep up with his studying or else. And I KNOW that getting a poor grade would be very upsetting to him, especially in a peer setting. He hates disappointing other adults, like teachers, and feels a reasonably healthy sense of competitiveness that would make him focus and work. That's what I think is happening in his outside classes. 

 

Is there anyway you can think of to address this, other than me basically hovering, prodding, goading, reminding, cajoling him to study those things that require studying (dates in history, vocab in languages, vocab and concepts in science, etc.) A student (most, at least) don't just "get" those on first exposire. You need to STUDY, review, review review. ANd he hates doing it. And I am sick of me being the crutch that he leans on (meaning, without me to remind him etc he wouldn't do it).

Thoughts?

[TianXiaXueXiao]

Sounds like a few games of Latin jeopardy are in your future. I would encourage you to remain hands on as his instructor and find ways to switch things up and make it fun and memorable. My daughter hates studying chinese, but she loves playing Chinese only day on Fridays. I'm probably not much help but that's what I got. ;)

[Mnemosyne]

I don't have kids that old, but could his learning style be different than how you are teaching him? I read a book the other day called The Way They Learn that was really useful to me even understanding myself and my husband (my kids are too young to know yet, really).

 

The reason I'm asking is because all the classes he takes outside of the home could easily be very hands on, so he could be a more kinesthetic learner.

 

It may be worth thinking about.

[lewelma]

Yes, there is another way.  You need to teach him to internalize his goals. 

 

I sat down with my younger this year and talked to him about how adults encourage themselves to meet goals they want to meet but don't actually want to do the work to achieve. If you want to loose weight, you promise yourself a new dress when you are down 10 pounds, if you want to clean out the garage, you promise yourself a movie out when you are done. etc.  Most adults do NOT like the 'stick', they don't want to have negative consequences for not doing an action, because it is icky.

 

So, ask your ds what his goals are.  And then ask him how he will reward himself once he has met them.  At first he should have small goals, just a day of work on latin or whatever and a small reward, 5 extra minutes screen time. But slowly he needs to build up to weekly goals, with larger rewards like an hour stay up late with the parents or something.  The KEY is to have HIM pick the goals and pick the rewards. AND for HIM to evaluate if he has met the requirement to get the reward. That is how they becomes his.  And if you are worried about it feeling like bribing, don't. Bribing is externally imposed.  But in addition, you can help him pick different kinds of rewards.  My ds worked for a full year with the reward being a new chain on his paper chain for every subject he did with a good attitude.  It became a very public display in my family room, that people would comment on and that he would then stand up with pride and say that it was all about his good attitude.

 

Finally, you need to have some way to document his achievement.  It has made all the difference in the world to my younger to make graphs so he can see his improvement.    He has graphs for : how many words he wrote each day, How long his times tables took him, How good was his attitude for each subject (based on his evaluation not mine). And he loves to show his father how far he has come.

 

Hope this helps,

 

Ruth in NZ

[LLMom]

For Latin, try some these games.  As far as doing better for others, this is exactly how 3 of my dc are.  They work harder/better and care more when it is for another teacher and they have that peer influence.  They are now in school because this is what motivates them.  There is something to that positive peer pressure.  They want to please the teacher and don't want to look stupid in front of their friends.  I use to be so upset by this, but they love showing me how well they do in school.  Not saying you need to put your dc in school, but some kids are motivated for others better. 

[Halcyon]

Thank you everyone, I like those ideas. I really like the idea of Ruth's to have him set the goal. I also like the idea of a jeopardy game. Each child would have a different board game as they are working on different curricula but I think that could be fun, as long as they don't fight, which sometimes happens when we do "fun" things. 

 

I am going to sit him down and ask him what his goals are for each week--we'll start with vocabulary--and then his reward will be extra minecraft time (that's my guess about what he'll choose....)

[HSmomof2]

No advice, just :grouphug:. We have the same thing here with ds(11), only our main problem subject is math. He is a very outgoing, extroverted child, and I've been wondering if he just learns better when in a group situation. He seems so much happier in his co-op, PE and music classes than he does doing any work at home. He adamantly does not want to go to school, but my patience with his attitude at home about doing school work is wearing thin.

[The Governess]

I'm in the same boat. My kid will give 100% in a class of peers and 50% plus lots of complaining for me. I think she is just a social learner.

 

I'm trying some online classes this semester and seeing if the format will work for her. Keeping my fingers crossed because there aren't a lot of in-person options that I'm thrilled about. :-/

[TianXiaXueXiao]

My kid gives me attitude for most subjects, except english (spelling, grammar, writing, etc.). I usually ignore it and act excited about what we are working on and sometimes she comes around. Sometimes she digs her heels in. When she does this we switch gears and come back later. Sometimes later happens in the evenings and sometimes we just need a change in scenery. For *some* reason doing work in a public place like the coffee shop or the library does wonders for her attitude!

[Alte Veste Academy]

What is that saying? Familiarity breeds contempt? Once upon a time...long, long ago, I read a lovely poem about how we treat strangers with grace and kindness and save our worst for our family. Sad but true sometimes. With family, the desire to impress isn't always as great because family knows all anyway. And besides mom and dad, who is there to impress exactly? Ourselves, of course! :laugh: LOL That's not eye-roll worthy at all! :lol: But corny as it may be, that is still my aim. So I agree that working with him to develop internal motivation is a great idea (although I disagree with the idea of unrelated external rewards).

 

Anyway, I wonder if this is a situation where familiarity breeds apathy. Is he performing better in outside classes because he is getting the kind of motivation he needs from the teacher/peer influences in the outside classes? If so, I guess the real question is how to take what works for him there and translate it to something that could work for him at home. For starters, an outside teacher would be less vested, less frustrated, less cajoling, less powerful, less aware of his faults (and less likely to point them out), but at the same time more...flexible? distanced? matter-of-fact? able to lay out standards/expectations and rewards/consequences and enforce them without emotion getting in the way?

 

In school, I lived for A's and accolades. I thrived on praise from my teachers and admiration from teachers and peers. I performed well when pushed (again, by teachers and peers). It made me push myself harder. But whenever my parents tried to push me about anything? Everything? I dug my heels in. (In retrospect, I know this was because we did not have a strong relationship.) And, unfortunately, I did not care so much about learning as I did about my grades. (Darn immaturity and typical public school climate!) So, personally, I wonder if this is a dynamic of familiarity paired with a lack of internal and external motivation--the latter of the particular kind your DS seems to crave, because obviously when those particular external motivating factors are present, he performs well.

 

Certainly, internal motivation is ideal. But performing well and receiving praise is just so doggone nice! And getting constantly griped at by mom is the opposite of motivational (here anyway). In that vein, I do agree with your DH about holding him to firm standards, with testing and grades. It sounds like he would rise to the challenge. When kids are harped on about something, they get in the habit of being harped on. Then it takes reaching critical mass to get anything done. And that is the pattern that is formed. You get into a cyclical dynamic of cajoling and just barely getting the minimum done. If you remove yourself emotionally, just establish standards and typical schooly rewards and consequences, how would he respond to that? Do you do grades? In your shoes, I would strongly consider it. I would also praise, praise, praise, praise, PRAISE. Sincerely, as often as I could. I would watch my ratio of praise to criticism and attempt to keep it at least 4:1ish.

 

I think this is a harsh reality of homeschooling for some of us. We're doing alright here, but I can relate somewhat, for some subjects more than others. Knowing myself and how I thrived in school, it kills me to think that my kids might "perform" better on a day-to-day basis at school when I know that their overall, year-by-year performance would most likely be sacrificed because PS expectations are so dumbed down compared to mine. But Monday through Friday, in class, I have no doubt that the hand-in-the-air participation and cooperation would be there (for two of my kids anyway; the third would be in the principal's office daily). I work hard to foster engagement here. Even so, there is push back at times. And, yes, it sometimes kills me to see the non-begrudging level of cooperation external teachers/coaches get. Even when my kids have a gripe about a teacher, the teacher doesn't hear it. I do! Yeah, well, who are they going to complain about me to? Turns out, me! :lol: I guess now I can just remind myself that familiarity breeds contempt, and at least we don't have flat out contempt here...yet. (Well, often anyway. :lol:)

 

As DS10 and DD9 get older, I see it more. I think it comes with a competitive (DS and DD) and/or social (DD) nature. Just today, DS10 asked me to give him grades because he wants to know how he's doing. Working for excellence (redoing work until A quality, what I expect and enforce here) somehow doesn't let him know where he stands? Well, now, I can sort of see that, again because of the lack of peers and an external (theoretically impartial) teacher. But the thing is that working until A quality does show him where I insist he stand and, more importantly, what he is ultimately capable of. That's the point here, one they will all hopefully understand by the time they leave our homeschool.

 

I agree with the idea of working with kids to internalize and work toward their own goals but, honestly, kids are not going to internalize personal goals of A, B, C and X, Y, Z for each and every subject that we do. They couldn't care less about some things because while they may love A, C, X, and Y and do them gladly, they don't necessarily have the perspective to understand why B and Z will one day be important, so they resist. It's my job to maintain perspective. So for some things, they are just going to have to work because it is required of them, and that is where they are most likely to drag. Even so, personally, I don't want to reward extra time on video games or whatever other external thing just because they did some kind of banal work that didn't thrill them. However, it is why I spend so much effort weaving banal skill work in with engaging content work (or, yes, games). They each have pet subjects in which they fully vested and excel, then subjects that are interesting enough to keep them engaged through completion (good enough for me! LOL), and a subject or two that they would be perfectly happy never to see again. But they have to see it, so I fold it into something more exciting if I can. A spoonful of sugar helps the medicine go down...

[Arcadia]

Just today, DS10 asked me to give him grades because he wants to know how he's doing. Working for excellence (redoing work until A quality, what I expect and enforce here) somehow doesn't let him know where he stands? Well, now, I can sort of see that, again because of the lack of peers and an external (theoretically impartial) teacher.

Letting my boys take standardized tests solve this problem for my 9 year old.  He used to get giddy happy when its report card day at public school because he gets a mix of 3s and 4s.  Now when his standardized test scores comes back, he gets happy knowing where he stand among his peers. He is not at the top percentile but he likes knowing where he stand. He actually don't like getting all As, he thinks its a fluke because there is surely people doing better than him in the whole student population.  My younger is getting the same way.

[Mukmuk]

I have me one of these too. It seemed to worsen for awhile recently. Except for math, even science was getting bothersome for him, which was a surprise. I'm not sure if this will help, but I've done a few things:

 

- I'm outsourcing in a big way this term. He really learns far better with a teacher! I plan to take the backseat but continue to direct his learning and add logic or games where appropriate. In terms of practicalities, I print out his schedule and remind him about the upcoming classes when he forgets. The plan is to eventually get him to do the planning himself.

- Look at what else is going on in his life. Ds is too fond of computer strategy games. We've always restricted game time to an hour a week, but this fella now tells me that for the last several years, he's been thinking through his strategies nearly 24/7. He replays it constantly through various perspectives in his mind to improve his game, and he has, according to him, very impressive stats  :cursing: . He's been able to make a bit of way in his life for other interests, but lately, it's taken a dive for the worse as he now has access to games via a neighbour (this kid has every game console you can think of :(). Some kids, it appears, just have addictive personalities, so I'm working with him on recognising this for himself. 

- Look for a mentor. Ds' strongest mentor at the moment is his violin teacher. I can be saying the same things, but when his violin teacher says it, DS takes it to heart and is keen to discuss the implications of, say, gaming, with me. He's even been persuaded about going cold turkey for computer gaming as a result of a conversation with his teacher! I know I lucked out here. But when you find the right person, it works beautifully.

 

DH and I are still finding our way out of this and it's early days yet. We're taking the tack that 11yo boys want to find their way in the world on their own terms. It really does take a village!

 

[Farrar]

I love Ruth's post.  I agree that it's really about buy in from the child.  I guess one of the reasons that I homeschool is that I hope that I'll be able to shepherd the kids through learning to be internally motivated like that instead of always working for a grade and then, suddenly, finding themselves as adults and not sure how to accomplish anything without looming tests and grades.

[Alte Veste Academy]

I thought my first post was too long and rambling, so I deleted most of it. I just put it back (though still rambling, LOL) because I sincerely fail to understand how getting a child to attach arbitrary self-rewards to the completion of work equals internal motivation. To me, that is just transferring responsibility for the creation of external motivators from parent/teacher to child. I am not really a fan of this kind of carrot and stick tactic. Although I can see how a work for (unrelated) reward strategy would come in handy as an occasional tool, I do not see it as a replacement/fix for what Halcyon is describing with regard to her son performing better outside the homeschool.

[Alte Veste Academy]

I also like the idea of a jeopardy game.

Do you think it was just the Jeopardy game he liked or playing and doing well against peers in front of an impressed teacher/role model?

 

I have never liked the idea of attaching rewards like video games to school work, because they are so superficial when compared to the kind of rewards he is getting in the outside classes--admiration and praise from peers and/or his teacher, pride and increased self-esteem from being viewed as competent, capable, and prepared, etc. In your shoes, I would attempt to replicate the internal feelings of pride in his accomplishments rather than have him work for completely unrelated rewards.

 

When I suggest giving him grades, it is more to eliminate your frustration and the "fight" than to provide the external reward of a high grade (although at least a grade would have more educational meaning than other types of extrinsic rewards). He can only make you his crutch if you keep propping him up. You can have a good talk with him, let him know you want to change the dynamic, tell him you are going to remove yourself as a crutch, and brainstorm ways he can stay upright and move forward through his own effort. I mean obviously as a homeschooler, you need to instruct and support him. But you shouldn't feel like you are pulling him uphill through mud.

 

In your shoes, I would specifically ask him why he thinks he performs so well in outside classes compared to at home and solicit his input about changes that would encourage greater motivation and independence at home.

[lea1]

Yes, there is another way.  You need to teach him to internalize his goals. 

 

I sat down with my younger this year and talked to him about how adults encourage themselves to meet goals they want to meet but don't actually want to do the work to achieve. If you want to loose weight, you promise yourself a new dress when you are down 10 pounds, if you want to clean out the garage, you promise yourself a movie out when you are done. etc.  Most adults do NOT like the 'stick', they don't want to have negative consequences for not doing an action, because it is icky.

 

So, ask your ds what his goals are.  And then ask him how he will reward himself once he has met them.  At first he should have small goals, just a day of work on latin or whatever and a small reward, 5 extra minutes screen time. But slowly he needs to build up to weekly goals, with larger rewards like an hour stay up late with the parents or something.  The KEY is to have HIM pick the goals and pick the rewards. AND for HIM to evaluate if he has met the requirement to get the reward. That is how they becomes his.  And if you are worried about it feeling like bribing, don't. Bribing is externally imposed.  But in addition, you can help him pick different kinds of rewards.  My ds worked for a full year with the reward being a new chain on his paper chain for every subject he did with a good attitude.  It became a very public display in my family room, that people would comment on and that he would then stand up with pride and say that it was all about his good attitude.

 

Finally, you need to have some way to document his achievement.  It has made all the difference in the world to my younger to make graphs so he can see his improvement.    He has graphs for : how many words he wrote each day, How long his times tables took him, How good was his attitude for each subject (based on his evaluation not mine). And he loves to show his father how far he has come.

 

Hope this helps,

 

Ruth in NZ

 

Ruth, I really like your approach and believe it is just what I am needing in my homeschool.  Thanks for sharing. Could you explain how you measure/graph attitude per subject?   I think this, along with the words per written per day would be really good for my youngest.  And I am going to start working with both of my sons on setting their own goals.  Thanks so much!

[LaughingCat]

You know, for me personally, setting 'rewards' for myself does not work.  Then again I like to read the ends of books at the beginning and open presents early lol!  But it is a way plenty of adults get themselves to do unappealing work.  Graphing is similar in concept to a food journal has been scientifically proven to work for many people.   I just downloaded an app who's sole purpose is to 'make a chain' of check marks (and graph them for you!) hoping that it would help me start exercising regularly again.

 

I have seen plenty of other hacks like this in various motivational books or websites.  Lots of habit making books talk about making it 'easy for yourself' rather than trying to power past obstacles.   And in my own experience, sometimes the most ridiculously trivial external change (that I made myself, not that was forced on me) has worked far better than massive amounts of internal self-talk. 

 

OTH - I have not been successful in getting my older DD to set motivated goals that are in alignment with basic educational needs. And her education is too important (to me not to her) to let her slack if she can't self-motivate.  But... maybe I just haven't found the right external change that will motivate her.  In fact I just read a book that said that smiling when you ask your kids to do something has been proven to make them more likely to do it - so that's my new change that I'm working on making (yes, sad to say, I am not a natural smiler ). 

 

ETR: a few words that felt like 'attitude' when re-reading them 

ETA: my smiling when telling her what to do is a goal I'm pretty sure she would pick for me if she thought she was allowed to.  So win-win if it works.

[lewelma]

Sounds like some people love it and some hate it. 

 

Regentrude was really the one that opened my eyes to the idea that imposing strict schedules in a home atmosphere is really superficial for some kids.  So she doesn't do it.  Her kids work to their own goals for home classes and work to strict schedules for outsources classes.

 

So my next question is *how* do you get your kids to work to their own goals at home? I really think that badgering/reminding/nagging etc puts the onus on you the teacher/parent, and that is the antitheses of self motivation. So I took Halcyon's situation as a need to teach personal drive. 

 

My younger is currently working hard every day because he wants to see more 'blue' on his attitude chart.  Without the chart, he is unmotivated; with the chart he works hard.  IDK, you explain it.  I think it has to do with SEEING progress on an esoteric goal (good attitude, self drive). How do you know you are improving if you don't record your progress.

 

So the attitude chart: We have talked about what good attitude/self-drive looks like: finishing the entire assignment in one sitting, focusing for the entire time (not day dreaming), working with intensity, tidy, independent, self-started etc. Then after each subject, *HE* evaluates his performance from 1 to 5, 1 being the worst and 5 the best.  1 gets 1 red block, and 5 gets 5 blue blocks (with orange, yellow, and green in the middle).  Each week we make a new chart.  The subjects he likes best get to the top fastest because he has 5 blocks per day, but he does like to race different subjects, so if he has done poorly on one subject with 2 orange blocks, he can still make it up over the week and get to the top.  (and for hard subjects we break it up so Mandarin writing and Mandarin listening are separate because he is unmotivated for writing and motivated for listening, and I want him to track his progress separately).  He gets no other reward except being able to show his father his progress. He really likes when he gets a number of green or blue days after some red or orange days. It makes him feel so good  And remember each subject is evaluated separately, so he can really track his progress. I have also found that he is very honest.  He doesn't always evaluate the subject as I would, sometimes lower sometimes higher, but overall very fair.

 

This approach works for us, but obviously different kids are different.  In contrast, my older has just been self driven from a very young age. I think it is a personality thing.  But I do believe that the best thing that I can give to my younger is self-drive, so I work very hard to encourage it.

 

Ruth in NZ

[quark]

I was going to suggest that he needs to own his work (another way of saying he should internalize his goals?).

 

I'll just tell you what works here in the hopes that it helps. Please don't take it as advice. We've done this from day one (ETA: the habitually working at things kiddo says he wants to learn part, not the harmonious homeschooling part lol -- that only happened after two very painful years of parenting and homeschooling mistakes) and it's just a description of what we do. Whether or not it will remain this way I don't know. :p

 

We don't use rewards or charts of the sort mentioned above. They have never worked. But I do reward him for work well done. We just don't decide on a reward upfront. And I don't tell him that I am going to reward him. A few days of hard work might earn him a movie on Thursday as well as our traditional Friday movie night for example. Or perhaps after writing an essay without complaining, without telling him in advance I might suddenly stop by at the grocery store after a class to pick up a pint of his favorite ice cream. Little things to show him I know he is working hard but he will not know those little things will be his after he is done with the work so that they come as a nice surprise but I am careful, as far as possible, that the reward is not habit forming.

 

It also matters very much to our family for him to be doing work that is meaningful. If kiddo says he wants to do X, we talk through what kind of time commitment and work is required for X and if he still wants it he MUST show me ownership and responsibility. I won't require daily work but at least consistent work. No backing out 2 weeks later. There have been exceptions when things really didn't work out or the resource turned out to be subpar but most of the time if he wants it, he has to work for it. He doesn't get to do other things he likes till the work is done. The moment a fair amount of work is done he knows he is free to do as he pleases afterwards. It's rarely an issue with him but if it becomes an issue, I explain how much it has cost, what had to be given up in order to pay for X and so on. No reward is offered at the outset for completing it. But when he does complete it I make it clear that I am extremely proud of him. I blog about it. Or I mention it to family members within his earshot. The work itself is usually his reward.

 

Similarly, if I or his Dad want him to do a subject, we explain very carefully why, we google it together, he is given a choice when it comes to teacher/ books to use etc. If he is really against it we don't do it.

 

I also noticed in your siggy that the chemistry class is a co-op using McHenry's curriculum? I personally don't find her curriculum challenging. Interesting yes. Not really challenging. It's fun, hands-on work and definitely great for a co-op setting but perhaps it's easy enough that he can put in the effort for the teacher? And perhaps music too comes more easily to him? Latin is much harder in comparison no? What I do is flip things the other way around. I outsource the challenging subjects and work on him at home with easier ones. It's easier on our relationship! These are usually subjects that I can address with him like friends do, via discussion or debate, over a cup of tea and cookies or while cuddling the dog. It makes for a more harmonious learning experience. I am doing this even more consciously now as the teen years approach.

 

Does he know why he is learning Latin? Is the reason compelling enough to him? I'm definitely not saying not to do it especially after all the time and money you have invested in it. But why do Latin? Did he choose it? Did he agree to do it? What made him agree? Will it help to remind him of that?

 

I know it is really hard to juggle things with your work hours too. Is it possible to adjust your schedule so you are doing the harder things with him when you are both well rested?

 

Good luck Halcyon!

[Alte Veste Academy]

This approach works for us, but obviously different kids are different.

Definitely kids are different. Here though, I think it is the difference in situations that is critical. Away from home, Halcyon's son seems motivated, pushes himself, and excels. At home, for some subjects anyway, he seems to lack motivation, needs to be pushed, and gets the minimum done that he can get away with. Because he has already shown that he can perform independently at a high level when motivated, it seems to me that it would be a worthwhile effort to try to extrapolate and replicate some of what is working so well for him outside of the home or, conversely, eradicate what is not working well at home. Constructing and employing a reward system at home in this situation seems to neglect the significant detail that the problem is not universal. My question is why is he motivated in one situation and not the other? The one could inform the other.

[Laura Corin]

Bright kids who don't like to study are not uncommon - they often get things first time, so feel stupid if they need to review.  

 

The only thing that worked for us is making review an absolutely every day activity.  I set up one of those 'accordion' files with 31 slots in it and put memory work in day by day, so that every day Calvin had to look in a slot and work on the stuff in that slot.  I would then test him on it and it would be moved to the next day, week or month, depending on how well he knew it.  By making it routine, we managed to reduce the conflict.  Every Sunday, I would move the items that had been missed over the weekend to a weekday slot.

 

L

[Tress]

 My question is why is he motivated in one situation and not the other? The one could inform the other.

 

I'm wondering if it is really situational.

 

Halcyon wrote:

 

He gets very annoyed when he has to actually STUDY for things.

 

I don't have outsourced classes for my dd10, but I'm seeing the exact same behaviour. Subjects where she can understand the material and be done, she loves. Subjects that require work, no matter how well you understand things, I have to nag, cajole, threaten etc to get her to work. We have been working on geography (being able to locate on a map a standard list of Dutch places) for ages :banghead: . And don't talk to me about Latin vocab :banghead: .

 

I haven't found a solution yet.

 

[lewelma]

For starters, an outside teacher would be less vested, less frustrated, less cajoling, less powerful, less aware of his faults (and less likely to point them out), but at the same time more...flexible? distanced? matter-of-fact? able to lay out standards/expectations and rewards/consequences and enforce them without emotion getting in the way?

.....

 I do agree with your DH about holding him to firm standards, with testing and grades. It sounds like he would rise to the challenge. 

 

....If you remove yourself emotionally, just establish standards and typical schooly rewards and consequences, how would he respond to that? Do you do grades? In your shoes, I would strongly consider it.

 

I think it depends on the homeschool.  I am more co-learner/facilitator/parent than an impersonal teacher.  If I tried to do the above, my kids would just cry.  They are both competitive, but who are they competing with in my homeschool?  They would see the establishment of firm standards with testing and grades something to be sad about because they want to want to learn rather than be pushed into it.  Does that make sense?  This is in no way suggesting that the above doesn't work really well in some homeschools, but it really really would not work in mine.

 

Isn't it lovely that there are so many opinions on this board.  Everyone should be able to find something that will work for them!

 

Ruth in NZ

[Soror]

Bright kids who don't like to study are not uncommon - they often get things first time, so feel stupid if they need to review.  

 

The only thing that worked for us is making review an absolutely every day activity.  I set up one of those 'accordion' files with 31 slots in it and put memory work in day by day, so that every day Calvin had to look in a slot and work on the stuff in that slot.  I would then test him on it and it would be moved to the next day, week or month, depending on how well he knew it.  By making it routine, we managed to reduce the conflict.  Every Sunday, I would move the items that had been missed over the weekend to a weekday slot.

 

L

Laura, thanks for sharing. I was just looking at one of your schedules yesterday (in your siggie) and wondering about it. My son needs a lot of review w/ certain concepts and I've been working on making it daily to help w/ fluency and also attitude but I need a better method, I'll have to try out your method.

[Halcyon]

Okay, thanks for all this wonderful input. I am really getting some good ideas here. Some clarifications about my son:

 

1) He does well in outside classes for three reasons: 1) the classes are easier than mine 2) they don't require review and homework 3) he gets to "compete" (in a quite gentle way) with other kids which he likes.

 

2) the difficulty he has with me as his teacher

1) I am not good about setting my expectations for each day. He really likes a clear checklist, and I don't always give him one.

2) He likes to be evaluated by exams, although he HATES doing poorly. I have yet to determine if doing poorly will motivate him to study harder or just make him give up. I haven't given him regular testing so I don't have the answer to this.

3) He does much better with praise than with "tough love". Unfortunately, I am a "tough love" kind of person, and I need to change that.

4) he likes games, but a) this often means a lot of prep work on my part and I don't have much time outside of work, homeschool and life to prepare these and b) these games often devolve into bickering and arguing about who won, who earned a point etc. I don't have much patience for that so often resort to "get er done" type work.

5) There are no outside expectations with me--he took the high school level Lone Pine Latin in 5th grade and did very well, getting an A in the class and a gold medal on the NLE. So I know he can meet high expectations. (We decided the class itself took up an outsized portion of our day, so we are no longer using it). For Latin this year, we are doing Latin Prep 2, which was supposed to be "easy" for him and comprise mostly review. But he has really not stepped up to do the work at all, gazes out the window while working, doesn't review vocabulary....in Lone Pine, there were weekly tests on a huge amount of material. Maybe I could work with that concept of weekly tests but just on a bit less of material. The problem for me, of course, is finding the time to prepare these tests. For those of you who prepare weekly tests, how do you find the time? Is there something I am missing here.

6) he hates studying. Period. Vocab, math rules, whatever. He wants to jump right to the output part.

 

Okay, so what have I learned from this discussion?

1) DS needs weekly quizzes for accountability.

2) DS needs grades to know where he stands.

3) DS needs daily checklists of assignments.

4) DS needs more praise from me, less "tough love".

5) I need to consider an "attitude chart" like Ruth suggests above. Ruth, could you snap a photo of this so I can envision what you're talking about.

6) rewards. I have resisted rewards for schoolwork. But it is something to consider. This week, I am trying Ruth's suggestion of having him set a goal and a reward for learning his list of Latin vocab. He chose to get either an hour of Minecraft or an icecream sundae if he learns all his words by Friday. So far, he is doing well--he even worked last night on entering all the words into Quizlet and learning some of them. We'll see if this lasts.

[regentrude]

Regentrude was really the one that opened my eyes to the idea that imposing strict schedules in a home atmosphere is really superficial for some kids.  So she doesn't do it.  Her kids work to their own goals for home classes and work to strict schedules for outsources classes.

 

Let me jump in and clarify a few things here, because this does not accurately describe my kids.

It is true, my DD is extremely motivated internally, has goals, is ambitious, mature way beyond her age and would feel driven to excel "just because". Not a typical child - and my son is the opposite.

I would not say he works on his own goals. I mandate time on task, I select materials that fulfill the educational goals *I* have for our home school; he chooses among the options I have preselected, has freedom to structure his day, but it is all within the framework of the mandatory school time imposed by me. He is a minimalist and I need to make sure time on task is put in.

 

 

So my next question is *how* do you get your kids to work to their own goals at home? I really think that badgering/reminding/nagging etc puts the onus on you the teacher/parent, and that is the antitheses of self motivation. So I took Halcyon's situation as a need to teach personal drive. 

 

It has been my experience that self-motivation is largely a character trait, because I observe my completely different children.

 

Your example in your first post, about adults self-motivating by setting goals, was a perfect one to show the flaws of the method: how many adults actually manage to lose the 10 lb and fit in the new dress? The typical scenario is that most do not achieve this goal, despite the promised reward. So, if mature adults can't, I can hardly expect it from an 11 y/o.

[regentrude]

Okay, so what have I learned from this discussion?

1) DS needs weekly quizzes for accountability.

2) DS needs grades to know where he stands.

3) DS needs daily checklists of assignments.

4) DS needs more praise from me, less "tough love".

5) I need to consider an "attitude chart" like Ruth suggests above. Ruth, could you snap a photo of this so I can envision what you're talking about.

6) rewards. I have resisted rewards for schoolwork. But it is something to consider. This week, I am trying Ruth's suggestion of having him set a goal and a reward for learning his list of Latin vocab. He chose to get either an hour of Minecraft or an icecream sundae if he learns all his words by Friday. So far, he is doing well--he even worked last night on entering all the words into Quizlet and learning some of them. We'll see if this lasts.

 

 

Attitude charts and rewards would never work for us, and I dislike them for philosophical reasons. So let me just say a few things about the other aspects:

 

You can find quizzes and tests for many curricula online. Many textbooks have companion websites where students can take quizzes.

As for games, you might want to look at computer based games he can do independently and where he would not bicker with you (after all, bickering with the computer makes no sense, either you accept the rules or not)

 

As for check lists: this is not what you are looking for, but let me tell you anyway how I deal with scheduling: I require that my DS puts in school time. During this time, he is free to select from all the resources I have chosen. He gets to structure his day, within a few constraints: one hour of math must be done daily, and he may not spend more than one hour on video/audio resources. The rigor comes through the  materials and the time on task, but it saves the scheduling time and requires just a bit of oversight that no subject gets neglected.

 

I hear you on the vocabulary. DS hates this too. We found that he is much more motivated to work with Duolingo than with flash cards. I have recently bought a cheap verb drill book which is utterly dull and repetetive, and for some reason DS loves this. So, experimenting with different resources might turn up something that works for your DS.

 

My kids work harder for outside classes too. Heck *I* do work harder for outside classes that have a structure and deadlines than I work for any self-imposed goals on my own. Ask me how my French is coming along... when I took a class, I was on top of things and ahead of the class - at home, I am a complete slacker.

So, I have decided to accept that this is completely normal and I can't change this attitude - I can only make sure that enough work gets done at home to meet my standards.

[Miss Mousie]

Bright kids who don't like to study are not uncommon - they often get things first time, so feel stupid if they need to review.  

 

The only thing that worked for us is making review an absolutely every day activity.  I set up one of those 'accordion' files with 31 slots in it and put memory work in day by day, so that every day Calvin had to look in a slot and work on the stuff in that slot.  I would then test him on it and it would be moved to the next day, week or month, depending on how well he knew it.  By making it routine, we managed to reduce the conflict.  Every Sunday, I would move the items that had been missed over the weekend to a weekday slot.

 

L

 

I think Laura touches on a common characteristic of gifted people.  Developing study habits is especially difficult for gifted kids, partly because they don't have nearly as many opportunities to practice as NT kids do, but also because of the perception that "needing to study = not smart." 

 

Another factor at issue here is rote memorization. There are many "checklist of symptoms" (LOL) things on the internet; nearly all of them will mention that rote memorization is difficult for gifted kids, whether it's spelling words, history dates, science vocab, math facts, whatever.  I think this is partly due to the drudgery of the task, but also because of the lack of context when drilling.

 

I like Laura's solution, but I don't think my son would do it if I weren't there hovering or quizzing.  I have told him many times that just moving his eyes over the page and calling it done doesn't work.  I have demonstrated a few methods of self-quizzing.  We have worked on developing an understanding of what adequate preparation for a test looks and feels like - how do you know when you've studied enough?  Consider how well- or ill-prepared you feel right now, before the test, and judge that perception by your grade after the test.  Next time a test comes around, raise the subject and say "last time, you said you felt prepared, but you got a C.  Maybe this time you need to put in more study time or try some different techniques."

 

Which brings me to my last thought:  everyone needs to figure out for themselves which study methods best suit them.  There are a number of study skills threads here (if I remember correctly, Lewelma had some fantastic long posts explaining a wide variety of techniques); you may find some new tricks to try in those threads (many of which are tagged "study skills").

 

For me at least, it has been (and continues to be) a long haul.  Good luck, Halcyon.  I'm rooting for you and your DS!  :)

[RootAnn]

 So far, he is doing well--he even worked last night on entering all the words into Quizlet and learning some of them.

 

 

You might have him search first, there are a LOT of Latin Prep 2 lists already in Quizlet.

 

:lurk5:

[Alte Veste Academy]

I think it depends on the homeschool. I am more co-learner/facilitator/parent than an impersonal teacher. If I tried to do the above, my kids would just cry. They are both competitive, but who are they competing with in my homeschool? They would see the establishment of firm standards with testing and grades something to be sad about because they want to want to learn rather than be pushed into it. Does that make sense? This is in no way suggesting that the above doesn't work really well in some homeschools, but it really really would not work in mine.

 

Isn't it lovely that there are so many opinions on this board. Everyone should be able to find something that will work for them!

 

Ruth in NZ

Just to be clear, I am not an "impersonal teacher" either. I also see myself as a facilitator, and my kids also want to learn. For the most part, attitudes are excellent here. My suggestion in this case to do testing and grades was to allow Halcyon to change the current dynamic of mutual frustration, because clearly neither of them is happy with the status quo. Personally, I think some emotional distance could be helpful if the current situation has a homeschooler "hovering, prodding, goading, reminding, cajoling" so often that it is causing great frustration.

[Alte Veste Academy]

My mother and father rarely if ever were involved in my study sessions for tests at that age--if I had a test, I studied until I felt comfortable, then Imight ask my mom to quiz me.

Speaking of being a co-learner/facilitator, I am reminded of the fact that when homeschooling, we kind of are put into a bizarre simultaneous teacher/peer situation with our kids sometimes. DS is doing Latin and I am learning along beside him. I did take math, of course, but I am relearning right along beside him (or, in this case, ever so slightly ahead of him). (I actually took a year of Latin in high school, but I won't even pretend I retained anything. :lol:)

 

Anyway, I am teacher, but I am also peer. Realistically though, I do not accurately fill the role of peer. You say you did not need your parents to push you or help with study sessions, and neither did I. But it occurs to me that what I did have, and benefitted enormously from having, was peers--for competition and cooperation. Peers pushed, encouraged, supported, commiserated, studied with me sometimes, and celebrated or commiserated when we were graded. So in homeschooling, they are not only not getting the competition of peers; they are also not getting the social and educational benefits of a positive peer group. I need to think about this more.

 

Just reflecting here, for my own reasons as much as for the thread. This has been a very interesting, enlightening thread for me as my kids get older and start to head into work that will be much more...well, work! Thanks for starting it!

[Arcadia]

Do you think it was just the Jeopardy game he liked or playing and doing well against peers in front of an impressed teacher/role model?

 

 

My older had played Jeopardy as part of his online coursework and also in an online session.  He likes "beating" the computer and does not need an audience. Jeopardy once a week or less would  be find for him, more often and he gets bored because the thrill wears off.  

For the online session, I was actually annoyed that the teacher put the boys into one team and girls into another (4 boys to 4 girls).  It was for prealgebra class.  The boys was getting all the questions faster than the girls. My boy said that its not nice that boys are getting almost all the points so he stop raising his hand and interestingly the rest of the boys did that too.  Suddenly no boys have their hands up even though  they were still typing the correct answer in the chat board to the teacher.    I think it is a sweet gesture from the boys.  However I also think for my boy's case, impressing teachers and peers wasn't his motivation, he has his own internal goal to answer to. He is my strong will, intense child though.

 

 

 But it occurs to me that what I did have, and benefitted enormously from having, was peers--for competition and cooperation. Peers pushed, encouraged, supported, commiserated, studied with me sometimes, and celebrated or commiserated when we were graded. So in homeschooling, they are not only not getting the competition of peers; they are also not getting the social and educational benefits of a positive peer group.

 

Bolded is what my older craves and has been asking for in increasing frequency. What he loves about the English winter camp class he went to was that for 3 hours a day, he had peers to bounce off ideas from.  There were 7 in his class. His math class however only have one other kid and he felt that it would have been a lot better with more kids.

Both boys also go for Saturday German school and they get written homework as well as pages to read up for class. Since everyone does their homework, they feel motivated to do as well.  What my older said was that he felt abnormal schooling at home compare to his peers and he feels normal in Saturday German school. Honestly his German class is much harder than if I were the one teaching him but he loves it.

[Halcyon]

 

 

I like Laura's solution, but I don't think my son would do it if I weren't there hovering or quizzing.  I have told him many times that just moving his eyes over the page and calling it done doesn't work.  I have demonstrated a few methods of self-quizzing.  We have worked on developing an understanding of what adequate preparation for a test looks and feels like - how do you know when you've studied enough?  Consider how well- or ill-prepared you feel right now, before the test, and judge that perception by your grade after the test.  Next time a test comes around, raise the subject and say "last time, you said you felt prepared, but you got a C.  Maybe this time you need to put in more study time or try some different techniques."

 

 

 The bolded really resonated! My son will "do" his work, but without intensity or intention. He will "do" the reading, but really not care to comprehend what he's readnig. I read aloud often and when I do so, I pause a LOT, engage in dialogue, stop to watch a brief video, pull up an image, whatever to keep him occupied and interested. But. There will come a time when he has to simply do this on his own, right? 

 

And re prep for test--yes! He will say he's prepared but then take a test and bomb it but he has yet to translate that into "really studying". He will read something, feel he "gets it" but in terms of study, review, writing flash cards, drilling, repetition....no way. He doesn't do it unless I force him too. Then, of course, he does well on the test and is very, very happy--- so you would think a light bulb would go off in his head: "aha! I did well on the test, and that made me feel good. How did I do that? Oh, I studied in the way mom suggested! aha!!" but it doesn't. :(

[Halcyon]

You might have him search first, there are a LOT of Latin Prep 2 lists already in Quizlet.

 

:lurk5:

Thanks, off to look. We are actually just going through the entire Latin Prep dictionary, which covers all the words for LP1, 2 and 3. We are making sure he knows 1 and 2 cold, so that just means going through the book, making flash cards and reviewing.

[quark]

Speaking of being a co-learner/facilitator, I am reminded of the fact that when homeschooling, we kind of are put into a bizarre simultaneous teacher/peer situation with our kids sometimes. DS is doing Latin and I am learning along beside him. I did take math, of course, but I am relearning right along beside him (or, in this case, ever so slightly ahead of him). (I actually took a year of Latin in high school, but I won't even pretend I retained anything. :lol:)

 

Anyway, I am teacher, but I am also peer. Realistically though, I do not accurately fill the role of peer. You say you did not need your parents to push you or help with study sessions, and neither did I. But it occurs to me that what I did have, and benefitted enormously from having, was peers--for competition and cooperation. Peers pushed, encouraged, supported, commiserated, studied with me sometimes, and celebrated or commiserated when we were graded. So in homeschooling, they are not only not getting the competition of peers; they are also not getting the social and educational benefits of a positive peer group. I need to think about this more.

 

I was going to come back this morning and mention this but you've said it better. It occurred to me that in Halcyon's case though it would be challenging due to her work hours.

 

[Halcyon]

Okay, I have been thinking a bit about how to make tests, and I think I can make tests on quizlet while I am at work and have a bit of downtime. i don't always have downtime, but certainly once a week i can find a few minutes here and there to make up tests for latin, science and history. 

[Halcyon]

 

 

I also noticed in your siggy that the chemistry class is a co-op using McHenry's curriculum? I

Does he know why he is learning Latin? Is the reason compelling enough to him? I'm definitely not saying not to do it especially after all the time and money you have invested in it. But why do Latin? Did he choose it? Did he agree to do it? What made him agree? Will it help to remind him of that?

 

 

Hey quark-no the chemistry coop is separate-we are doing McHenry's The Brain at home. i actually find it plenty rigorous lol-lots of terminology and lots of great instructive videos etc. Coop is doing Classical Conversations Chemistry. Re Latin-he doesn't want to do it. He is doing it because DH and I insist on it (dh particularly). He would rather not do it.

[Alte Veste Academy]

 Re Latin-he doesn't want to do it. He is doing it because DH and I insist on it (dh particularly). He would rather not do it.

 

Out of curiosity, and it may be totally irrelevant, and you don't have to answer, but I'm curious... :D

 

If he went to a school where Latin was offered but not required, would you insist that he take it? 

 

Irrelevant because you are not. You are choosing to keep him and teach him at home. But this is the kind of question I ask myself. In the beginning, when I was looooooving WTM, I assumed all my kids would do Latin. I would have them do Latin, they would be perfectly happy to do so (it was my imagination, after all :lol:), and that would be that. It would give me classical cred. But then I started researching curricula and didn't fall in love with anything. Well, Minimus. He was so cute, but I didn't like the follow-up program to Minimus and anyway... So, the ultimate confounding roadblock for me was that it seemed like every program was entry level, just set up for kids to enter at different ages. So I kept putting it off. We're pretty busy here with other stuff anyway, and if it was going to be entry level when we started anyway, why not enter at 3rd instead of 1st, then 5th instead of 3rd...well you get the picture. :tongue_smilie: Turns out that DS10 really wanted to study Latin and Greek after reading Percy Jackson, so I bought him Lively Latin because I thought it would be easy enough and interesting enough for him to self-study (and it is). Phew! So it is technically off my plate, which is a relief, because in all honesty, I now doubt I would have started him until 7th...maybe 9th. Maybe never! :lol: I'm sure I would have just farmed it out at some point.

 

Anyway, blah, blah, blah. But I am curious about this because if your DS resists the work so much in 6th, it makes me wonder if it will get easier or harder and, especially since all curricula seems entry-level through high school anyway, if it is worth the fight at this age. 

 

Just to be clear, I'm not suggesting you stop or that it's not beneficial. Just really wondering. 

[lewelma]

Speaking of being a co-learner/facilitator, I am reminded of the fact that when homeschooling, we kind of are put into a bizarre simultaneous teacher/peer situation with our kids sometimes.

 

This is why it would be impossible to give tests to my older.  I have suggested, however, that he make tests for me and I will make some for him.  Then, we could compare grades.  Creating tests actually helps you learn the material.

 

The only kind of testing that will work for my older is external tests.  So starting last year he will take 1-2 exams equivalent to the SAT2 tests.  He finds this very motivating for his studying (just took his first in Nov). So he is working towards a bigger goal - an annual test externally given; but would rather sort out the daily studying on his own without tests/quizzes. Meaning, that he is taking external tests without outsourcing/taking a class to prepare him for the tests.  So a nice combination of internal and external motivation.

 

This ds also told me something quite interesting about tests.  He likes having tests to motivate him in subjects that he would not choose to study on his own (music theory), but does NOT want tests in subjects where he is self motivated because he finds them a distraction (math, science). 

 

Thought those 2 ideas might be useful to you, Halcyon, when deciding *how* to do tests.

 

Will try to get a photo up of younger's attitude/motivation chart.  But I am *way* over the limit on space because of my science fair photos (must have had a larger limit on the old board).  So I actually need to take down some of those photos to make room. 

[Chrysalis Academy]

 The bolded really resonated! My son will "do" his work, but without intensity or intention. He will "do" the reading, but really not care to comprehend what he's readnig. I read aloud often and when I do so, I pause a LOT, engage in dialogue, stop to watch a brief video, pull up an image, whatever to keep him occupied and interested. But. There will come a time when he has to simply do this on his own, right? 

 

 

So we've had the same thing here, and it's frustrating.  What I finally realized is that if I want Shannon to care and comprehend what she's reading, I have to do two things: I have to explicitly and systematically teach her how to read to learn, and I have to make it matter.

 

Ruth has some great posts about developing reading comprehension skills for nonfiction reading.  It is such a different beast, a different kind of reading, even than reading tough literature.  I think some of us with "advanced readers" maybe don't realize that our kids - who we see whizzing through challenging novels - really do need to be taught how to read texts and other nonfiction.  I think you have to read it with them at first, model how you navigate the text, model note-taking.  I have even read and taken notes on the chapter, then had her read and take notes, then had her compare her notes to mine.  I think she found this enlightening, and it helped somewhat.

 

But what has really helped is: now I have her read with a clear, specific purpose.  For each set of readings (more like a unit or a topic, not each chapter) I give her an essay question, or set of questions, or a compare-and-contrast question, that she will be required to answer in a composition at the end of the reading.  It has made a huge difference! Now as she reads, she has this set of questions, she takes notes to answer the questions, and she knows that she better take good notes, because she will use them to write a paper.  If she doesn't take good notes the first time through, she'll just have to read it again.  Having this output requirement that she knows about up front has really completely changed how she reads and takes notes.  She told me today that she loves this, because now she knows what to take notes on!

 

I love it because it's also finally achieving the holy grail of writing across the curriculum:  When she is producing a composition in history or science each week, I don't have to bother with a separate writing program, which we both like.

 

I should say that at this point, the fact that I am giving her the topic to write about is key.  It would be too hard if I said, "Go read this unit then write a paper about something you find interesting." But when I say "Read these 5 chapters and then write a paper comparing and contrasting the rise of Hitler, Mussolini, and Stalin" - and I give her a set of specific questions she needs to address in her paper - and I give it to her before she starts reading and taking notes - well, this seems to be the right amount of scaffolding that is helping her to learn to read and take notes effectively.

 

Anyway, sorry for the long post.  It's just that what you said above really resonated with me, it's how I used to feel every day, conflicted about reading aloud vs. teaching her to read to learn independently.  And this has really transformed things for us, so I thought it might be helpful.