LG Gone Wild Posted February 28, 2008 Share Posted February 28, 2008 I know this is a touchy subject but I have never understood what drives this view point. Frankly, I am tired of being puzzled by it. I can understand why someone may not like Catholics or like the Roman Catholic Church, or care for highly organized religion. I am not getting the "Catholics aren't Christians" bit at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GothicGyrl Posted February 28, 2008 Share Posted February 28, 2008 I'm sure I will be corrected on this, but the argument, as I've heard it is: Catholics are not Christians because they believe in worshiping the Virgin instead of God, and they worship a false idol (the virgin and the saints). That's the biggest one most repeated to me. But I've also heard that it is doctrinal issues that make them "not Christian", though I'm not quite sure what those are, as I get a lot of "well you know...." when I try to prod. Either way, that's just what I've heard. I don't necessarily believe it, but I've heard it a lot. I just tend to get mad and scream "we all worship the same God why do we have to fight over legalistic stuff", but I know that some don't see it that way either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chiguirre Posted February 28, 2008 Share Posted February 28, 2008 I had to ask this once, too. The explanation I got from a former protestant fundamentalist was that because RC churches have crucifixes, some protestants think that Catholics don't know that Jesus rose from the dead. There may be other reasons as well, but that was the answer I got. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Julpost Posted February 28, 2008 Share Posted February 28, 2008 Perhaps a good place to start?? http://www.cuttingedge.org/news/n2042.cfm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bess Posted February 28, 2008 Share Posted February 28, 2008 In a simplified answer is becausethe Catholics view salvation comes by works whereas Protestants believe salvation comes by faith alone in the finished work of Jesus Christ on the Cross. Luther, who started the reformation, stressed the difference in the two. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GothicGyrl Posted February 28, 2008 Share Posted February 28, 2008 I guess I am glad, after reading that link, that I no longer have any ties to any religion. It's too legalistic and "us vs them". Whatever happened to just worshipping God? Why do Catholics, Christians, Protestants, Jews, Baptists, etc.... place so many demands, rules, etc... some that are even unbiblical, upon themselves, when all they should really be doing is just worshipping God? I guess I just don't get it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LG Gone Wild Posted February 28, 2008 Author Share Posted February 28, 2008 Catholics are not Christians because they believe in worshiping the Virgin instead of God, and they worship a false idol (the virgin and the saints). I suppose I can see how the showing reverence of to Mary and the saints can be misconstrued by non-Catholics as worshiping idols. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cin Posted February 28, 2008 Share Posted February 28, 2008 That is the response that I always heard also. Of course, I was raised Baptist, so Catholics, Lutherans, Episcopals, etc. were NOT christian. Now, I am all grown up and thinking for myself (and NOT attendign the baptist church) so I can now see that there are Christians in all churches. It is a heart matter, not a clothing matter, not a 'gee, they have so much gold in their church' matter, or a day they choose to worship matter. Even some christian churches have services on Saturday night >GASP< Having said all that, I will concede that the catholics KIDS I grew up with did NOT have it in their hearts. They were not trying to be obedient to God. And yes, as teenagers, they went to mass on saturday night so they could sleep in on Sunday Monrings. Regarding worhsipping Mary....That was one of the big arguments as I was growing up. And yes, that is idolatry, but not all of them do that. And....Mary was a pretty special girl...and deserves our utmost respect and honor....just not worship. my ramblings were doen with a 3 yr old on my lap, please forgive all the typos, as I know there are MANY.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Julpost Posted February 28, 2008 Share Posted February 28, 2008 I guess I just don't see the rules as coming from us, I look for what does God say? Since I do believe the Bible is from God, I take what it says for what is the truth. If Jesus said the He is the way to the Father, then that's what I'm going to believe. If God said in the Old Testament not to bow down to idols, then I don't think I should do it. If Jesus said to look for the NARROW path, then that's probably the way I'll look for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sixmeadows Posted February 28, 2008 Share Posted February 28, 2008 they are Christian. There are many protestant denominations that like to major on non essential pieces of doctrine. :o (This could be hurtful since many Catholics view themselves as Christian.) Cheri Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GothicGyrl Posted February 28, 2008 Share Posted February 28, 2008 Regarding worhsipping Mary....That was one of the big arguments as I was growing up. And yes, that is idolatry, but not all of them do that. And....Mary was a pretty special girl...and deserves our utmost respect and honor....just not worship. Right... and like I said, the ones who bemoaning Catholics as not Christian, don't see what you said--they just see "they are worshipping the wrong person" and automatically launch into "not christian". Again, I don't have any dog in this fight at all, that's just how I've heard it from both sides.. The Catholic side will say what you did--that Mary was pretty special and she deserves our worship, while the Christian side says "but you are worshipping the wrong person" and then they fight. ;) And the fighting is what makes this bad. Doesn't make either side look appealing to the non-of faith-person. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Linda in NE Posted February 28, 2008 Share Posted February 28, 2008 Please, I'm making very broad generalizations here, but the gist of the schism between the Catholic faith and some of the more conservative Protestant believers as I understand it boils down to beliefs about the completeness and inerrancy of scripture. The Catholic Bible contains some books that are not in the Protestant Bible. The Catholic Church also views scripture to encompass the contents of the Bible as well as papal encyclicals, and other official Church interpretations of the Word. This, in conjunction with a lot of misunderstandings about the role of Mary and the Saints within the Catholic faith, seems to fuel the belief in some quarters that Catholics are not Christians. It's not a belief that I adhere to, but that's what I've been able to glean from reading and discussing the issue with both my Protestant and Catholic friends. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
8filltheheart Posted February 28, 2008 Share Posted February 28, 2008 as to the true teachings of the Catholic Church, that the sum total answer is ignorance. We don't worship Mary nor the saints. Nor do we believe that salvation comes from works. Every single one of those statements is false. This is one of those conversations I prefer to stay out of b/c people are so entrenched in their misunderstandings that they don't really want to know or learn the truth. Catholics are Christians. Period. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PariSarah Posted February 28, 2008 Share Posted February 28, 2008 It starts with the Great Schism, between Catholicism and Orthodoxy, where mutual excommunications were the rule of the day. And later, once you get Protestantism, same thing applies: each side insisted that the other is going to hell. This was formalized doctrine for both sides--Catholics say Protestants aren't Christians, and Protestants say, "Right back atcha, baby!" The Magisterium (post-Vatican II) and some Protestant churches have changed in the last century: they recognize that people on the "other side" can be Christians, but that there are still significant enough disagreements that we can't just all hold hands and sing Kumbaya. And the mutual excommunication bit from the Catholic-Orthodox split has been (I believe) rescinded. So both sides recognize that there is still a difference between Catholicism and Protestantism--are differences, actually, and big ones at that. But the "you're going to hell for being a Catholic/Protestant" part has changed. There are, however, some strains of Catholicism and some strains of Protestantism that retain the old feeling that the "other side" is on the wrong side of the highway, and heading in the opposite direction, IYKWIM. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
8filltheheart Posted February 28, 2008 Share Posted February 28, 2008 I don't view myself as a Christian. I AM a Christian. Christ is the center of my life. THose who believe Catholics aren't Christian are basing their understanding of Catholicism from Protestants who do not understand Catholic theology or on people who call themselves Catholic and have no earthly idea what that even means. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LG Gone Wild Posted February 28, 2008 Author Share Posted February 28, 2008 That is the response that I always heard also. Of course, I was raised Baptist, so Catholics, Lutherans, Episcopals, etc. were NOT christian. .... don't consider Lutherans and Episcopalians as Christians either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plaid Dad Posted February 28, 2008 Share Posted February 28, 2008 The usual reason is that some Protestants believe that Catholics practice what they call "works righteousness," meaning that Catholics supposedly rely on their own merit rather than faith in Christ to win salvation. This is not in fact what the Church teaches, but it is a common misunderstanding. If you believe that what defines "real Christians" is sola fide, justification by faith alone, and you believe that Catholics don't teach or accept sola fide, then you will conclude that Catholics are something other than real Christians. There is also the issue that GothicGyrl mentioned, concerning Catholic beliefs regarding the veneration of saints, including the Virgin Mary. While the other issues are ones of legitimate disagreement, this one is, in my opinion, largely based on misunderstanding of Catholic teaching. The other very common debate can be described as Scripture vs. Tradition. Protestants typically hold to the Bible as the sole rule of faith, while Catholics accept the Magisterium, the teaching authority of the Church, which we believe is witnessed to in Scripture itself. Catholic responses to all these critiques and more can be found here. Just for reference, I am a Catholic convert who was raised Protestant, so you know where I'm coming from. HTH! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staci in MO Posted February 28, 2008 Share Posted February 28, 2008 Sola scriptura ("by Scripture alone") Sola fide ("by faith alone") Sola gratia ("by grace alone") Solus Christus ("Christ alone") Soli Deo gloria ("glory to God alone") Wikipedia on Five Solas For the record, I would never go as far to say that Catholics aren't Christians. But I believe that they come to Christ the same way anyone else does: grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone. I believe that many Catholic teachings can hinder that by putting an emphasis on works that is not upheld by Scripture. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GothicGyrl Posted February 28, 2008 Share Posted February 28, 2008 as to the true teachings of the Catholic Church, that the sum total answer is ignorance. We don't worship Mary nor the saints. Nor do we believe that salvation comes from works. Every single one of those statements is false. This is one of those conversations I prefer to stay out of b/c people are so entrenched in their misunderstandings that they don't really want to know or learn the truth. Catholics are Christians. Period. And what part of "As We've HEARD it" don't you get? None of us have said "we feel it is like this" (except for one person).. the rest of us have ALL said "this is how we've heard it". So please do not lump me or others in with the one person who has said they believe it that way. Your beef is with them (that one person), not us. I won't go into the rest of it because I could tell you how I have seen and heard it considering I was baptised and grew up in, a Roman Catholic house. I know what Catholics believe and do in church because I've seen it, lived it and did it. Just as much as you believe they don't do those things. But that's not the point--the point is, none of us outside of that one person, have said we believe those things, only that we've heard it was like this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elizabeth Posted February 28, 2008 Share Posted February 28, 2008 Well, I rest my case .To point out a link that seeks to villify, distort and demean Catholics shows thatyou seek not understanding but a bully pulpit. I am sad that you see the world in absolute terms. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
8filltheheart Posted February 28, 2008 Share Posted February 28, 2008 Actually, to clarify just a little, the Catholic Church teaches that salvation is through grace. From the CCC: The grace of the Holy Spirit has the power to justify us, that is, to cleanse us from our sins and to communicate to us "the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ" and through Baptism:34 But if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him. For we know that Christ being raised from the dead will never die again; death no longer has dominion over him. The death he died he died to sin, once for all, but the life he lives he lives to God. So you also must consider yourselves as dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus.35 1988 Through the power of the Holy Spirit we take part in Christ's Passion by dying to sin, and in his Resurrection by being born to a new life; we are members of his Body which is the Church, branches grafted onto the vine which is himself:36 [God] gave himself to us through his Spirit. By the participation of the Spirit, we become communicants in the divine nature. . . . For this reason, those in whom the Spirit dwells are divinized.37 1989 The first work of the grace of the Holy Spirit is conversion, effecting justification in accordance with Jesus' proclamation at the beginning of the Gospel: "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand."38 Moved by grace, man turns toward God and away from sin, thus accepting forgiveness and righteousness from on high. "Justification is not only the remission of sins, but also the sanctification and renewal of the interior man.39 1990 Justification detaches man from sin which contradicts the love of God, and purifies his heart of sin. Justification follows upon God's merciful initiative of offering forgiveness. It reconciles man with God. It frees from the enslavement to sin, and it heals. 1991 Justification is at the same time the acceptance of God's righteousness through faith in Jesus Christ. Righteousness (or "justice") here means the rectitude of divine love. With justification, faith, hope, and charity are poured into our hearts, and obedience to the divine will is granted us. 1992 Justification has been merited for us by the Passion of Christ who offered himself on the cross as a living victim, holy and pleasing to God, and whose blood has become the instrument of atonement for the sins of all men. Justification is conferred in Baptism, the sacrament of faith. It conforms us to the righteousness of God, who makes us inwardly just by the power of his mercy. Its purpose is the glory of God and of Christ, and the gift of eternal life:40 But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from law, although the law and the prophets bear witness to it, the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: since all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, they are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as an expiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins; it was to prove at the present time that he himself is righteous and that he justifies him who has faith in Jesus.41 1993 Justification establishes cooperation between God's grace and man's freedom. On man's part it is expressed by the assent of faith to the Word of God, which invites him to conversion, and in the cooperation of charity with the prompting of the Holy Spirit who precedes and preserves his assent: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PariSarah Posted February 28, 2008 Share Posted February 28, 2008 . . . .Baptists don't consider Lutherans and Episcopalians as Christians either. There are multiple varieties of every denomination you could name. Some Baptists do, some don't. Some Baptists are so liberal they would make some Episcopalians pray for their salvation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A.J. at J.A. Posted February 28, 2008 Share Posted February 28, 2008 don't consider Lutherans and Episcopalians as Christians either. As someone raised Southern Baptist, I can assure you that we were NOT taught that all those religions were not Christians...sorry for the double negative, I couldn't think of a better way to put it. Angela Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LG Gone Wild Posted February 28, 2008 Author Share Posted February 28, 2008 . Nor do we believe that salvation comes from works. I thought so. I am going over the replies and kept thinking "What about the bugger on the cross next to Jesus?" I thought he was saved and he certainly didn't have a lifetime of good works behind him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LG Gone Wild Posted February 28, 2008 Author Share Posted February 28, 2008 I'll reach the next bee level yet, durnit.:) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pam Wilhelm Posted February 28, 2008 Share Posted February 28, 2008 Some day there won't be "religions" and such a thing as a person being "this or that"............. when we will fit into society based on who we are as an individual trying to do the best that we can........ when we will no longer think of another person as a label... but as an asset to society and mankind in general. Know me for how I treat you and others.......... not what my latest label is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
8filltheheart Posted February 28, 2008 Share Posted February 28, 2008 Everyone was posting what they heard and yet not one person clarified that what they heard was actually contrary to church teachings. I simply posted the truth.....all of those statements were false. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GothicGyrl Posted February 28, 2008 Share Posted February 28, 2008 I said I didn't want to go here, but since it was brought up, I will. We don't worship Mary nor the saints. Please tell this to the millions of people who visit (still) a building that had an acid burn on the window in the shape of the Virgin Mary and who lay candles at the foot of this building and pray to it before leaving and who bring people who are in wheelchairs or have some type of deformity or need some type of curing, to this thing and pray to it that they be cured. (and lest I get any neg reps for saying this, here is my proof: http://www.visionsofjesuschrist.com/weeping286.htm ..Please focus on the first picture and see the ginormous collection of candles, pictures, bibles, prayer beads, etc.. *I* went there even) Nor do we believe that salvation comes from works. I cannot tell you anything about this except that a long childhood of "do unto others" (without the "as you would have them do unto you") is all I ever heard. Again, I am NOT saying ALL Catholics feel this way. But yes, whether (g)you want to believe it or not, they do do it this way. That link is proof enough. If you need any more, just googling "Virgin Mary Miracles" will give you a ton of places to visit. Again, I am NOT saying I believe that Catholics are not Christian. I am only showing proof that these things are done (that were said to not be done), in my neck of the woods. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pam Wilhelm Posted February 28, 2008 Share Posted February 28, 2008 Everyone was posting what they heard and yet not one person clarified that what they heard was actually contrary to church teachings. I simply posted the truth.....all of those statements were false. I think that is part of the problem........... a lot of the times we here this or that and when we really research it, we find out it wasn't true at all. I am a Christian Scientist and the amount of misinformation about C.S. is really kind of funny ..... I've heard it all. Some day mankind will be past the labels and misinformation and just try to do their own sense of what is right and worthy of perpetuity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GothicGyrl Posted February 28, 2008 Share Posted February 28, 2008 Some day there won't be "religions" and such a thing as a person being "this or that"............. when we will fit into society based on who we are as an individual trying to do the best that we can........ when we will no longer think of another person as a label... but as an asset to society and mankind in general. Know me for how I treat you and others.......... not what my latest label is. Pam--I said this above. In my first post. Why can't we all just do this and not label? I so agree with you. :( Eliana-- Since, as I understand it, the essence of Xtian identity is internal & between an individual and G-d, how can anyone every judge that another person is or is not a Xtian, except based on the individual's self-report? Because, as I've been told repeatedly, a Christian's job IS TO judge other's based on God's word. Now, they did say that they aren't to hold non-christians up to the same standards as they would other Christians, but I've been repeatedly told (over at another message board that I no longer attend) that any good Christian will not stop judging those they feel is going against the word of God because that is what God commands ALL Christians to do. I do not know if Peek-a-boo will "peek" in on this thread, but ask her yourself and she will tell you that the above is true and has been said to me and others (including her a few times) before. By Christians. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dirty ethel rackham Posted February 28, 2008 Share Posted February 28, 2008 There is a huge difference between "reverence" and "worship". I am Catholic, though not particularly skilled at apologetics, and I don't worship anyone but God the Father, God the Son, God the Spirit. I may revere Mary and her special role in salvation - her "yes" to God's plan. I may revere the Saints who are examples of devotion to God, but I don't worship them. Reverence is not bowing to idols. Anyone who accuses Catholics of worshipping idols has not bothered to understand this faith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GothicGyrl Posted February 28, 2008 Share Posted February 28, 2008 There is a huge difference between "reverence" and "worship". You are absolutely correct with this. And I do think the majority of people who claim Catholics as not Christian, don't know this difference. However, I do understand this faith, growing up in it, thank you. And while YOU (and I)may see and know the difference between the two, there are some who do not and who even preach it from the pulpit as "worship" rather than "reverance". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PariSarah Posted February 28, 2008 Share Posted February 28, 2008 My saying "Bob is not a Christian, but Mary is" does not have any impact on God's ultimate judgment of their faithfulness. So, yes, ultimately, it comes down to a personal interaction with God. BUT, for Christians, personal is not the same as internal. Part of being a Christian is living out Christianity. (Think halakhah--how one walks is who one is.) AND, for Christians, even though other Christians don't determine whether or not one is a Christian, other Christians are means through which God speaks to one. So, if another Christian says to me, "Sarah, you are not walking in Christ's footsteps," that might be God trying to tell me something. There are no easy "tests" or physical marks, so we need each other to help us figure out if what we believe and do is in line with what God intends Christians to believe and do. My favorite example is this: suppose someone came up to you and said, "You know what? I don't actually have any ancestors who were from Africa, but I feel black. I'm going to call myself an African-American from now on." Those who actually are African-American would have something to say about that, no? I know it's an imperfect analogy (so please don't tell me all the ways it doesn't fit--I know them all, thanks), but it gets close. The label means something both to the individual and to the group, so the group doesn't remain silent when they seem someone appropriating the label unjustly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sixmeadows Posted February 28, 2008 Share Posted February 28, 2008 and I should have since I did not have time to explain further and even for my poor choice of words. What I meant to say is.. there is no good argument. Catholics are Christian. Cheri Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhondabee Posted February 28, 2008 Share Posted February 28, 2008 The usual reason is that some Protestants believe that Catholics practice what they call "works righteousness," meaning that Catholics supposedly rely on their own merit rather than faith in Christ to win salvation. This is not in fact what the Church teaches, but it is a common misunderstanding. If you believe that what defines "real Christians" is sola fide, justification by faith alone, and you believe that Catholics don't teach or accept sola fide, then you will conclude that Catholics are something other than real Christians. There is also the issue that GothicGyrl mentioned, concerning Catholic beliefs regarding the veneration of saints, including the Virgin Mary. While the other issues are ones of legitimate disagreement, this one is, in my opinion, largely based on misunderstanding of Catholic teaching. The other very common debate can be described as Scripture vs. Tradition. Protestants typically hold to the Bible as the sole rule of faith, while Catholics accept the Magisterium, the teaching authority of the Church, which we believe is witnessed to in Scripture itself. Catholic responses to all these critiques and more can be found here. Just for reference, I am a Catholic convert who was raised Protestant, so you know where I'm coming from. HTH! Is it true that Catholics see the Pope as "Christ incarnate" on earth - that this is why he is "infallible"? I am assuming now that this is just yet another myth, since no one here has mentioned this. (Please know that momof7 is my dear friend, and I know that Christ lives in her. Since I know these threads upset her, and she may not be back, I decided to ask you instead - but my question is sincerely an effort to remove my own ignorance.) Thanks! Rhonda Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ria Posted February 28, 2008 Share Posted February 28, 2008 I have not read the other responses, sorry. My experience has been that evangelical Christians believe that Roman Catholics are not Christians purely out of ignorance. Catholics do not bow down to idols, and those who think they do have a very skewed view of the faith. I can't tell you how many evangelical Christians I know who show absolutely zero comprehension of the tenants of Christianity; there are people of all faiths who do not have the love of God in their hearts. Don't judge a faith by them - Catholic or Protestant. Ria Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Storm Bay Posted February 28, 2008 Share Posted February 28, 2008 Because, as I've been told repeatedly, a Christian's job IS TO judge other's based on God's word. Now, they did say that they aren't to hold non-christians up to the same standards as they would other Christians, but I've been repeatedly told (over at another message board that I no longer attend) that any good Christian will not stop judging those they feel is going against the word of God because that is what God commands ALL Christians to do. Interesting, and I believe you because I've met people like this. But I'm surprised since I the Bibles I read say say "Judge not lest ye be judged" (or other wording with the same meaning if it's a different version) and that each one of us stands approved before God, not man. I was never taught that Catholics aren't Christians in the Anglican church I grew up in, although at one point in my life someone observed that whenever they spoke about religion with others they noticed that Catholics usually said they were Catholics and Protestants usually said Christian. But that was their personal observation, and that was a good 20 years ago or so. As for me, I think it's a heart issue, not a denominational issue. It's also between a person and God first and foremost. Same with idolatry, it's a heart issue. Someone may quote to me that we're known by our fruit, and I know that verse, too, and that verse about it being man's day. But in Romans it says to our own master (God) we stand or fall. I'd have been off that same board as you, Toni, had I heard all of that. Of course, I've also had my own situations where people didn't think I was/am a Christian because my theology differs radically from theirs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GothicGyrl Posted February 29, 2008 Share Posted February 29, 2008 Interesting, and I believe you because I've met people like this. But I'm surprised since I the Bibles I read say say "Judge not lest ye be judged" (or other wording with the same meaning if it's a different version) and that each one of us stands approved before God, not man. Karin--As I've been told, this does not apply to a Christian from a Christian. Because they aren't judging you by man's standards, but by God's. (I need the shrugging icon here) Of course, I've also had my own situations where people didn't think I was/am a Christian because my theology differs radically from theirs. And when I thought I was a Christian, I was told this as well, including by some on this very board. So (insert shrugging icon), I just don't know anymore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Storm Bay Posted February 29, 2008 Share Posted February 29, 2008 Karin--As I've been told, this does not apply to a Christian from a Christian. Because they aren't judging you by man's standards, but by God's. (I need the shrugging icon here) And when I thought I was a Christian, I was told this as well, including by some on this very board. So (insert shrugging icon), I just don't know anymore. Yes, well, I get irked when people don't look at the big picture but use one verse. That's a pet peeve of mine. Not that I'm always right by any means, but I have been studying the Bible a long, long time (I'm 48, so I guess it's been 26 years). I'd still call myself a beginner in many ways, but I've read it cover to cover at least 15 times, not to mention reading parts of it way more. I just don't find many people who've done that, although I know others have. I try to keep my detail-orientedness aligned with the big picture. I do have VERY strong opinions, I just try not to dump them on others because I just don't think any of us has it all right (or all wrong.) Of course, I felt free to dump my opinions 25 years ago. I wasn't born with any wisdom whatsoever. None. I was totally ignorant at birth and it's been an uphill process ever since. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j.griff Posted February 29, 2008 Share Posted February 29, 2008 I haven't read all the replies yet, so I apologize and ask you all to ignore me if this has already been said. ;) I figure most will tout the ideas that Catholics worship saints (or those who are more informed may quote the verses about Jesus being THE only way to God (the only way to the Father is THROUGH the son), so then praying for Saints to intervene on your behalf would be considered un-Christian, because you are not praying to Jesus. Still some other Christians would say (I have met them) that praying TO Jesus is idolatry- as Jesus is NOT the Father. :) I have also heard the idea that Catholics believe that Jesus failed His mission here on earth, and that is why they believe in purgatory and good works as a means of salvation. (I have researched this though, and I know better :) ) Then there's the whole idea of a Pope (many think that bowing and honoring the Pope is worshipping him), the idea of the Pope being infallible, etc. that many disagree with and find to be "un-Christian". HTH and Hugs, I know that ignorance can be so frustrating to deal with. (I'm not calling anyone here ignorant so don't get your undies in a wad, BUT if you are making assumptions about the Catholic Faith based on what hearsay and rumors, instead of researching it without judgement, well...). While I still don't agree with organized religion, or the idea that my salvation depends on other humans (absolving me of my sins), I respect the Catholic Church and the faithful followers. :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GothicGyrl Posted February 29, 2008 Share Posted February 29, 2008 Is that a serious question?First, let me throw a question back at you: what, in your opinion, does worshiping G-d *look* like? What does that mean? (Serious, non-accusatory question.) First, yes it was a serious question. What does worshipping God look like? If you want my honest answer it would be --I don't know, I've never seen it. All I've ever seen is "pray this way, do it that way, don't do it that way, no that's all wrong, etc.." (I hope you get what I mean with all that--eg: I've never seen anyone just do it. It's always had strings or rules attached to the "how" part). These boundaries are not oppressive barriers to full enjoyment of life, they are the walls which create a space for holiness in my life... and they are a precious gift given, I believe, to my people by G-d. And this is where I would disagree with you(but not in anger or anything).. Because I do see all of those rules and strings as oppressive. Again, I've never seen anyone "just do it". There has always been strings attached to the "how" and that's the direction I am coming from. You said: Here's an excerpt from the skirts/dresses thread in which I was responding to the term legalistic as a derogatory description of an approach to religious observance. Quote:I belong to a community which is often derided by outsiders as legalistic. Every aspect of my life is guided by my faith: the food I put into my body, the words I breathe out, the clothes I wear (both their material and what they cover), what times I month I am intimate with my husband, the images I see, how I use my money, the way I treat others, the days on which I work and those on which I 'rest'. I say brachos (blessings) before and after eating, after using the bathroom, when I wake up, before I go to sleep, when I put on new clothes or shoes, when I see a rainbow or hear thunder. I pay intense attention to each detail of divine law, not because I am legalistic, but because I believe G-d 's words are not random or vague, and that each detail is worthy of my careful study. G-d is in the details. I believe that I have been given the means to try to sanctify my life, to elevate even the most mundane aspects of life, to try to make my life holy, and that because it is such an important task, that I should approach it with at least the level of care I would approach working in a nuclear reactor. The details are not trivial, each one is important and there for my benefit. And for me, this is entirely overdoing it and oppressive. Again, I am NOT saying anything bad towards you or anyone else who does this--this is strictly FOR ME and ME alone. I think the difference between say you and someone I would call "legalistic" is that you are not telling me that this is the only way to do it, or the right way, or that I should be doing this or that because it's what you do. In fact, you stated as much in the rest of your post--that this was how YOU and only YOU did things and why you did it that way.. And I have no problem with you stating this!!! :) I ONLY have the problem when it is stated as fact, or as rule, or as law, when it doesn't and isn't. It's like this: there is a verse where we are commanded to "go to our closets and pray" and to do so in silence. Yet every church I've ever been in has community prayer, OUTLOUD and in front of everyone--including but not limited to- calling people up for "alter calls". That to me is completely opposite what they are being told to do. I just have a problem and where it becomes legalistic for me, is when people make up rules or laws or whatever based loosely on how THEY interpret Scripture. And then they expect everyone else to do as they say because of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mamagistra Posted February 29, 2008 Share Posted February 29, 2008 As someone raised Southern Baptist, I can assure you that we were NOT taught that all those religions were not Christians...sorry for the double negative, I couldn't think of a better way to put it. Thank you for saying this. I was never taught such a thing either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Julpost Posted February 29, 2008 Share Posted February 29, 2008 This has been interesting...I think these discussions can always be a good thing. I do believe it all comes down to a person's heart and only God knows that. I admit I have limited information on the Catholic faith and I also realize I just need to keep on learning as well as pray that God will show me the truth. When I see a picture of someone kissing the feet of a statue, well, it doesn't sit well with me. But perhaps not all Catholics believe that's ok, I can see that. This whole learning process will be a life long journey. After all, as long as we seek God and His righteousness, he'll take care of the rest, right? Can someone answer a question for me.....do Catholics believe that Mary was sinless? And do they pray to her? I also saw a Google video called Messages from Heaven(you can google it, it's very easy to find, I'd add the link if I knew how to) about all of the Virgin Mary apparitions showing up all over the world. The Catholic Church has 'approved' many of these (I can't think of a better word) after their investigations. According to this video, these apparitions have said to build statues and shrines to her, that she is the co-redeemer with Christ and God. I'm TRULY not trying to start an argument, I'd just like to hear what Catholics think about this. I'll say again, I know there is a lot about the faith I don't know, and I'm willing to say that perhaps some of what I have learned maybe isn't true...time will tell as I continue to learn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pam "SFSOM" in TN Posted February 29, 2008 Share Posted February 29, 2008 I'm hearing this faith not works thing (which I had always thought was slamming me!), but if you judge whether someone is Xtian based on works not faith, isn't that a contradiction? Eliana But of course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GothicGyrl Posted February 29, 2008 Share Posted February 29, 2008 Messages from Heaven (just put the link in the post) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Dominion Heather Posted February 29, 2008 Share Posted February 29, 2008 The podcast is wonderful. She and Deacon Tim discuss various topics, but I know they have covered the idea that Catholics "worship" Mary and many other topics. Both of the hosts are Catholic. Both are clearly Christians. I can't recommend it enough. Cyndi is cool! :cool: Here is a link to a discussion about whether Catholics are saved. http://www.twoedgetalk.com/two_edge_talk/2008/01/are-catholics-s.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Storm Bay Posted February 29, 2008 Share Posted February 29, 2008 Oh. I'm not sure how to respond to that... I'll just sit here frozen in critical culture shock. ...but isn't there a difference between judging whether someone is 'going against the word of G-d' and judging whether they are 'really' Xtian? I'm hearing this faith not works thing (which I had always thought was slamming me!), but if you judge whether someone is Xtian based on works not faith, isn't that a contradiction? Eliana Yes, it is. Some might then quote James 2 at you about you see someone's faith by their works, honestly, none of this is stuff that can be quickly or lightly bantered around. Honestly, and I say this as a strong Bible believer, you can support almost any argument from scripture if you look for it. You can even take things out of context and say that there is no God, or that money is the root of all evil (neither is what the Bible is teaching if you look at it--I'm picking easy ones.) This is one of the reasons it's so hard to get people on the same page, figuratively speaking. There are many Christian beliefs I personally cannot justify or support from scripture, but I don't judge PEOPLE based on this because God is the searcher of all hearts, plus the other things I've said. I haven't always realized that there are true Christians in Roman Catholicism; that took many years of learning for me, because Roman Catholic doctrine and beliefs (and I have discussed this with very devout and knowledgeable Catholics, so please don't bash me--I'm all too familiar with inaccurate hearsay) are so different from my sola scriptura outlook. Even Christians claiming to be sola scruptura don't all agree! One of the reasons I enjoy discussions, IRL particularly, with knowledgeabe people of other religions and other Christian beliefs is because I have a lot more respect for intelligent input from them than from second hand information. This doesn't mean I'll agree with them, but it gives me an opportunity to see their side of it as best as I can. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j.griff Posted February 29, 2008 Share Posted February 29, 2008 Eliana, I am curious as to why you post Xtianity instead of Christianity. I understand why you type G-d, out of reverence. IMO (and in my ignorance most likely) posting an X instead of Christ seems a bit disrespectful. But maybe you are trying to show respect by typing and X instead. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anna Posted February 29, 2008 Share Posted February 29, 2008 I'm sure I will be corrected on this, but the argument, as I've heard it is: Catholics are not Christians because they believe in worshiping the Virgin instead of God, and they worship a false idol (the virgin and the saints). That's the biggest one most repeated to me. But I've also heard that it is doctrinal issues that make them "not Christian".... GothicGyrl and others, For all you guys who have posted inaccurate statements about Roman Catholicism.... it would be easily cleared up if a RC member would post a reliable link that explains their doctrinal beliefs. I can tell you now, though, that most of the statements made here were not accurate. Just so you know---- I was raised Roman Catholic but I haven't looked at their websites in a while so that's why I wouldn't feel comfortable pointing you to a good link. My dh and I were RC for over 20 years. Then we were Protestant for over 20 years. After that, we became Orthodox and have been this way for 8 years. We plan to stay here. There are some similarities between RC and O but there are also some similarities between RC and P. Regarding the *worship* of Mary and the Saints---- RC and O do not *worship* them. We reverence them, much like P's reference Luther, Billy Graham and many other P leaders both alive and dead. Do P's worship Luther or Graham or others in their Faith? Probably not but you sure reverence them. Consider this---- If you believe in live everlasting, then the saints of God who have gone before us are still part of the church. They continue to be our brothers and sisters in Christ, do they not? We ask church friends to pray and intercede for us. How is that different from asking those who have gone before us to pray and intercede for us? Are they not ALL "in Christ", both those on earth and those who have gone on? Can they not ALL pray for us? Regarding "works"---- RC and O both believe that works and faith go hand in hand. Leaving either one out can only offer imbalance. Orth Christians receive doctrine from several places--- Revelation, Tradition, Bible, Liturgy, Councils, Fathers, Saints, Canons and Church Art. The reason why not "Bible only" is because most of these doctrinal sources were around in the Early Church long before the N.T. Bible was even in written format. You can read more about O doctrine here: http://www.oca.org/OCIndex-TOC.asp?SID=2&book=Doctrine RC's should share a link for their doctrine and then the P's here can read for themselves. HTH some.:D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LG Gone Wild Posted February 29, 2008 Author Share Posted February 29, 2008 I think that is part of the problem........... a lot of the times we here this or that and when we really research it, we find out it wasn't true at all. I am a Christian Scientist and the amount of misinformation about C.S. is really kind of funny ..... I've heard it all. Some day mankind will be past the labels and misinformation and just try to do their own sense of what is right and worthy of perpetuity. The miniscule that I have heard about C.S. was from Agatha Christie books. It had to do with not wanting to consult doctors. I am sure you are rolling eyes but I swear it's true.:o Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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