s/o How much freedom would you give my kids?

[joannqn]

So, I've been wondering just how much where you live affects how much freedom you feel comfortable giving young children to play outside, in your front yard or in your neighborhood, alone. Based on the discussion on free range kids, we are possibly the most restrictive parents in the group. But, I feel that it is necessary due to where we live, that we'd be much less restrictive if we lived elsewhere. (We really want to move!) So, I'm wondering how much freedom you would give your kids if you lived at my house, given what we know of our neighborhood and the crime stats....

 

In the 10 years, I've lived here I've seen or heard about...

-- Saw 2 gang members beating the crud out of another gang member in front of my house. Turned out the house on the corner was a known gang hangout.

-- Saw a drive by shooting one block away

-- Twelve year old Zina Linnik was kidnapped from her yard 1 mile away and murdered

-- A meth house was closed down around the corner (I can see their garage from my house)

-- A drug house was closed down around a different corner (an odd guy used to hang out on my street and visit that house often)

-- Our local elementary locks up its playground after hours due to drug and alcohol problems.

-- Saw many drug deals in our local grocery store parking lot.

-- My neighbor was shoved to the ground and had her purse snatched 1/2 block from our house.

-- The neighbor behind me had his garage broken into.

-- The neighbor next to me had their house broken into.

-- Our car has been broken into twice.

-- Our car has been totaled by a drunk driver and damaged in a different hit and run drunk driving incident while parked on the street in front of our house.

-- We've had windows smashed out of our cars on a few occasions.

-- We've seen 3 car accidents end up in neighbors' yards due to excessive speed and failure to obey stop signs. Thankfully, their kids were not in their yards at the time.

 

Reported crimes occurred within a 1/2 mile radius of my home within the last 12 months:

Child luring - 1

Aggravated Assault - 17

Non-aggravated Assault - 54

Robbery -25

Arson -1

Motor Vehicle Theft - 80

Theft - 249 (this is broken down into categories)

Burglary - 110 (includes residential and nonresidential)

Vandalism - 228

Drug Possession of Meth - 7

Drug Sale/Manufacturing of Meth - 2

Drug Possession Other - 50

*Drug Sale/Manufacturing - 9

Weapons Violations - 21

Warrant Arrests - 166

Fraud/Forgery - 43

Criminal Traffic - 257

Liquor Law Violations - 9

Telephone Harassment - 8

Intimidation - 42

Possession of Stolen Property - 15

All other crimes - 23 (includes failure to register sex offender)

Total crimes within 1/2 mile of my house within the last 12 months - 1,417...and these are only the reported ones.

 

*Concerning the drug sales, they must not be looking in the right place because my husband and I have witnessed more sales than this in just our grocery store's parking lot alone.

 

There are two level 3 sex offenders living within 2 blocks of my house. One broke into a house and raped the woman, threatening to kill her and her 3 year old son. That wasn't his first sexual offense. He also has a long history of other, non-sexual crimes. The other was convicted of indecent liberties with a 9 year old girl and child molestation of 4 and 7 year old boys. He has other crimes on his record as well.

 

There are three level 2 offenders within 1/2 a mile of my house. Their convictions include child molestation 1 and 2 and attempted rape.

 

There are 39 level 1 offenders within 1/2 a mile of my house. Their convictions include child molestation 1 and 2, sexual abuse of a minor, rape of a child (1,2, and 3), indecent liberties, child pornography, assault with sexual motivation, statutory rape, lewd conduct with a minor, etc.

[lmrich]

I don't think I would let my kids go out without a police escort! Good gravy. We live in a culdesac with two crimes reported in the neighborhood for the last twelve years. Best of luck!

[momofkhm]

How awful for you! I wouldn't let my kids outside alone that's for sure. With all that I'd be out there all the time. Back yard, maybe. Is it fenced? With a high fence? Do you have a dog you could let out with the kids in the high fenced back yard?

 

I don't have near the issues in your neighborhood, but I don't let my kids play out front alone until they are 8. They can go outside with an older sib at 6. Backyard is almost as bad. We have a greenway off our backyard and no fence. So you can play outside alone at 5 but there has to be a dog out there with you and I (or dh) has to be downstairs. What I'm saying is that I'm not that free with my kids going outside alone even at my house.

[Rosy]

Yeah, I think Tacoma would not be my first choice of places to raise a free-range kid. We're about half an hour east of you, if you are ever able to make a move out of the city I highly recommend it. :)

[Danestress]

I would not let my children outside alone at all under those circumstances.

 

I guess I would compensate by taking them places where we felt safer as often as possible. Are there parks within a half hour or so where you can allow them to play safely? If so, we would spend part of pretty much every day there.

 

Can you take them camping or on hikes so that they can experience the relative freedom of exploring nature without restrictions?

 

I wouldn't let them out of my sight in your neighborhood.

Edited May 1, 2009 by Danestress

[Mama Lynx]

Not only would my kids not have freedom in your neighborhood, but I'd try as hard as i could to move!

 

We live in a very safe neighborhood. Reported crime statistics are ridiculously low. i'm very thankful.

 

My 7 and 8 year old play out front, and in the next door neighbor's yard. My 11 and 13 year olds may go together to the soccer fields down the block, and to the walking trails behind the houses. My 13 year old may go for a walk around the neighborhood, or to the walking trails, alone, but I ask that he carry the cell phone.

[tricia]

The scenario for me if I lived where you lived is this. A great big, tall, privacy fence in the back of the house AND me out there with them. Poor thing, I'm sorry your children and you have to live in fear this way.:grouphug:

[SherryTX]

Yep - definitely a tough neighborhood to let the young ones roam free!

That is a shame.

I have a question - have you considered moving? Or I guess, are you in a position to consider moving? I wouldn't want to live with there even without kids, as the sense of life in your area seems quite depressing.

[Orthodox6]

Lord have mercy ! I think I would have bars on my windows, a barbed wire fence around the yard, a devoted Rottweiler and/or pit bull as the family pet(s), and computer chips implanted in my children ! [Please know that I am joking.]

 

Seriously, though, I would be very concerned about the neighborhood.

 

My children never have played outside in the front yard in the neighborhood to which we moved in 2000. Rarely do the other neighborhood children play outside -- if there even are any ! Our neighborhood is "conventionally safe", but directly borders a heavily commercial area and busy-traffic secondary-thoroughfares, and is walking-distance from a high school.

 

My personal concern is the unemployed (we suspect) son (in his late twenties?) of a family across the street. He sits for long periods in his truck parked on the street. I have spoken from time-to-time with the family over the years, and there are enough "odd" signals to worry me about letting my children out without direct supervision. All we allow dd, 10 yrs., is to skate directly in front of our house, when dh or I can look out of the window at her.

 

Modern urban life grieves me. I am about to turn 54. I grew up in Houston, where I enjoyed tremendous freedom (from my own perspective), even with loving and vigilant parents. I rode my bicycle to the library, several miles away, and over to friends' homes, also several miles from my own home. My generation enjoyed so much freedom compared with city children of today. I truly am sad for my own dc.

[wagnfun]

given what we know of our neighborhood and the crime stats....

 

Reported crimes occurred within a 1/2 mile radius of my home within the last 12 months:

Child luring - 1

Aggravated Assault - 17

Non-aggravated Assault - 54

Robbery -25

Arson -1

Motor Vehicle Theft - 80

Theft - 249 (this is broken down into categories)

Burglary - 110 (includes residential and nonresidential)

Vandalism - 228

Drug Possession of Meth - 7

Drug Sale/Manufacturing of Meth - 2

Drug Possession Other - 50

*Drug Sale/Manufacturing - 9

Weapons Violations - 21

Warrant Arrests - 166

Fraud/Forgery - 43

Criminal Traffic - 257

Liquor Law Violations - 9

Telephone Harassment - 8

Intimidation - 42

Possession of Stolen Property - 15

All other crimes - 23 (includes failure to register sex offender)

Total crimes within 1/2 mile of my house within the last 12 months - 1,417...and these are only the reported ones.

 

*Concerning the drug sales, they must not be looking in the right place because my husband and I have witnessed more sales than this in just our grocery store's parking lot alone.

 

There are two level 3 sex offenders living within 2 blocks of my house. One broke into a house and raped the woman, threatening to kill her and her 3 year old son. That wasn't his first sexual offense. He also has a long history of other, non-sexual crimes. The other was convicted of indecent liberties with a 9 year old girl and child molestation of 4 and 7 year old boys. He has other crimes on his record as well.

 

There are three level 2 offenders within 1/2 a mile of my house. Their convictions include child molestation 1 and 2 and attempted rape.

 

There are 39 level 1 offenders within 1/2 a mile of my house. Their convictions include child molestation 1 and 2, sexual abuse of a minor, rape of a child (1,2, and 3), indecent liberties, child pornography, assault with sexual motivation, statutory rape, lewd conduct with a minor, etc.

 

umm... First off, random crimes happen every where --your area however being a high drug area is bringing the crime to you. My kids wouldnt' go outside alone in the area you've described. I would make it a point to hang in the backyard with them often, I'd have a big dog & I"d do what I could to move- even to an apt, even to a smaller house if thats what I had to do.

 

I am curious though as we are looking to move ourselves, how did you find all that crime info about your area, I am a research freak & want to know EVERYTHING I can about an area before I move there.

[SonshineLearner]

I'd have my children playing in the inner core of our house. I just let my 10 year old start riding her bike around.....but I've never heard of a crime around here, except driving drunk(at night) speeding (of course) and car break ins (at night)

 

Best wishes on moving!

Carrie

[Jean in Newcastle]

When I lived in White Center (high crime/gang center of Seattle) we had to be very diligent. It was not a free- range area for our kids to grow up in. Nine years ago we managed to move out of the area by buying a foreclosure. We only moved 20 min. away but the difference is amazing. Many you will be able to find a way to move.

[Jumping In Puddles]

I wouldn't let them go outside supervised at all. Not for 1 minute. I would say I'm one of the more lenient freerange kid parents but I'm blessed with a wonderful neighborhood.

[Pamela H in Texas]

I would be considerably less free-range where you are also. I think that would be a natural and GOOD reaction.

 

Can you move?

[joannqn]

I found the stats by googling my county and "crime stats" and "sex offender registry". I had better luck with using the county than the city.

 

We moved here 10 years ago, not realizing just how bad an area it was. But then again, it wasn't the worst area of the city back then. The worst area of the city (Hilltop for those that know the city) worked very hard to clean up the neighborhood which effectively pushed them all into my area, it seems. There is a neighborhood group working to push it out of our neighborhood into someone else's now.

 

No, unfortunately, we are not in a position to move and probably won't be for another 1 1/2 years at least. It just isn't possible no matter how you look at it. Housing values have dropped so dramatically, that we'd still owe after we sold. Before the housing crash, we had $70,000 in equity; now we have none. Plus our house needs quite a bit of work, both cosmetic and structural, to be marketable. Plus, our income isn't meeting our basic expenses right now, let alone having the money to fix up the house or pay moving expenses. So, we are stuck and making the best of it.

 

On a good note...we do have a large dog that barks at anyone who even walks down the street. We do have a six foot fence aroudn our tiny backyard but it isn't safe currently due to having to replace our sewer pipes; the ground is very uneven so even walking is risking a broken ankle. There isn't much to do in the front...tiny front yard with a hill and no kids living on the block. We go to the park, zoo, science center, children's museum, plays, field trips, etc. as often as possible. I'm an expert at finding free or very low cost things to do. I give my kids more freedom to be noisy inside and more computer time to make up for it.

 

Interestingly, we know a couple of families living in the same neighborhood 2 blocks away who feel that the neighborhood is safe enough for their kids (age 4-12) to play outside unsupervised. They are under to allusion that their residential street, with less traffic, is safer than living on the major arterial that I live on. Some of these crimes are actually closer to their house than mine. They've both told me that they would feel different if they lived on my street despite the fact that the stats are the same. I don't understand that. At least on my street, there is a better chance of the perpetrator being seen by someone.

[Impish]

I'd be free ranging them...right into a completely different community.

 

Sorry, but that's my honest reaction. There isn't anything on the planet that could induce me to continue to live in an area with that environment. I don't know how you manage...I'd be a basket case :grouphug:

[sleepy]

Zero. Gosh, what a scary place to live!

 

We're fortunate to live out in the country. The house can't be seen from the road and my older kids have complete freedom to roam around our yard and in our woods.

[joannqn]

Would I let my kids just roam around the streets here alone? No. But we make it all work for us. I don't live in fear. I know stuff happens, but it can happen anywhere. It is pointless to worry about it. I feel there is a lot of positive aspects to urban areas. For one thing, in our city, we have wonderful cultural activities and opportunities that we take advantage of. We get to meet a wide variety of people and learn about a wide variety of cultures (for example, cricket is a popular sport around here). Also, we are close to everything and anything.

 

This is basically how we live. I think we'd be bored if we moved somewhere too rural. We are used to have so many activities and opportunities available, especially during the summer.

[Jumping In Puddles]

This is basically how we live. I think we'd be bored if we moved somewhere too rural. We are used to have so many activities and opportunities available, especially during the summer.

 

But you don't have to move too rural, if you wanted to move, there is a happy medium (or is it median?) :)

 

I live 55 minutes from NYC and our lake association, every summer has so many activities that I don't sign the kids up for all of them. The town also provides an abundance of recreation plus the Appalachian Trail, local ski resort, water park, local farms etc. We don't live quite in the suburbs but not quite rural either. There are 0 registered sex offenders in my town (I KNOW that doesn't mean their are not unregistered offenders) and low crime.

 

Move to Northwest NJ. :) House prices are start at about $125,000.

Edited May 1, 2009 by Jumping In Puddles

[joannqn]

When we are in a position to move, we'll do one of two things. We'll either stay local enough for my husband to keep his business but still move out of the city...maybe 45 minutes away or so. Or we'll leave the state altogether. We've even talked about leaving the country. I think the first is most likely simply because of money issues.

[Carrie12345]

HOnestly, I'm torn. Statistically, my area isn't much different from yours, Jo Ann. The only thing that jumps out at me is that our school grounds aren't locked up. Our high schools do have armed security though!

 

The big difference is that ours is spread over a larger area. It's easy for me to *feel* pretty safe because we're on more than an acre in a gated community. The thing is, so are plenty of our criminals! So it's basically an illusion.

Yet I let my kids play out in the yard (but not the general community).

 

When we lived in Trenton (ick!), my oldest was a preschooler. I didn't have to face this issue. And I probably wouldn't have given him ANY freedom if he had been older even though, I've got to say, it was probably no more dangerous than where we are now. Just scarier!

[Jumping In Puddles]

 

So the point is...the grass is not always greener elsewhere. I moved from another state thinking that anywhere was better than where I was. Boy was I wrong.

 

The grass is not always greener elsewhere, and if she is happy there, then she should stay. :)

 

I don't believe there is any 100% safe haven to live. Not in this country or anywhere in the world but I do believe some places are safer than other places. But if you are going to move somewhere, don't expect it to be crime free, but you could look for a low crime neighborhood if that is what is important.

 

 

My dh and I took the kids to the Bronx Zoo yesterday, and on the way, dh was wondering why anyone would want to live in a city and he couldn't wait to get back to our quiet neighborhood. I told him that our little neighborhood would be the third circle of hell for many city dwellers. :lol:

 

EDIT: Wendy, I just noticed you are in New York, are you in NYC?

Edited May 1, 2009 by Jumping In Puddles

[joannqn]

HOnestly, I'm torn. Statistically, my area isn't much different from yours, Jo Ann. The only thing that jumps out at me is that our school grounds aren't locked up. Our high schools do have armed security though!

 

I don't know what kind, if any, security our high schools have. I do know that there was a fatal shooting at a local high school (4 miles away) two years ago. All the schools went into lock down that day. Our local mall (1/2 mile away) also had a spree shooting 3 1/2 years ago. The guy had a semi-automatic rifle and a pistol, shot 6 people (none fatal), and took 4 people hostage. A friend of mine, a cop, was the first officer in the mall. I was with his wife when she got a call from him saying he was ok; he didn't tell her that he was the first one in the mall until later. Gosh, these things feel like they happened yesterday.

 

The thing is that you don't really notice all this on a day-to-day basis. It seems ok to live here until you walk outside to go somewhere to find your car broken into or window smashed out....again. It's a rude awakening every single time.

 

I do let me kids play outside with supervision. Last summer, I started letting my older two outside together on our side of our block only without supervision. But I do check on them very often from the window. I tested my daughter's responsibility by allowing her to bike around the block but she failed the test by stopping to talk to another child on the block parallel to ours for several minutes. When she didn't come riding around the corner, I waited and waited and waited before sending my son one direction and went the other direction myself. I figured he'd be ok because we'd meet on the other side in two minutes. She is in HUGE trouble and hasn't been allowed off the block since.

 

We go to the park, in the city, often and I don't watch the older two very closely. My 2 year old keeps me busy enough all by himself. But they know and follow the rules about not leaving the playground area (usually the area covered in bark) without talking to me first. They learned that rule the hard way when they got busted by going to a friend's blanket two feet outside the playground area. Yes, it was a well-known friend and yes it was only two feet but they disobeyed the rules. Now they ask first so I know where they are.

 

Despite the neighborhood, I'm very slowly adding more freedom...just not the same amount that they'd have somewhere else. And I know there's no place that's totally safe. I had a huge amount of freedom compared to my kids yet things still happened...so I know.

[JoyfulMama]

JoAnn -

I think you are doing a marvelous job allowing your children to have a comfortable level of freedom for you. You enforce the rules based on safety. They learn. And that will benefit them their entire lives.

I've lived in urban, suburban, and now rurual. I *LOVED* the convenience of urban, and yet also am thrilled to be able to finally live in our dream rural environment (even though we don't own it). But why we are here has nothing to do with safety.

In urban living, safety is something always on your brain. That's not a bad thing, though - it causes you to be alert of your surroundings. I think that is a great thing to teach your kids!

I only let my kids play outside unsupervised in our rural home because I can hear all approaching vehicles. I still keep them in eye-sight most times - but now eye-sight is a much greater distance, since there are few things blocking the view!

I only let my children play outside in our suburban fenced yard when I could keep an eye on them as well. My children NEVER played out front in our "safe" suburban neighborhood without supervision. My children were the only ones supervised, and not necessarily the youngest on the block, either.

Shootings can happen ANYWHERE. Right after Columbine, a co-worker told me that if ever something happened near us, she was pulling the kids out and was going to homeschool. I looked at her and said, "Do you think your kids' school is exempt from the random dangers of the world?" We moved to a city right after a major public mall shooting. Was that going to stop me from moving there? No. And it didn't stop me from shopping there either. Crazy people are everywhere - and I don't live in a bubble. (I say "crazy people" kindly, as I previously professionally completed psych evals.)

I will not teach my children to be oblivious to potential danger, but that also does not mean we live in constant fear.

Enjoy your neighborhood for all it's diversity and activity. Teach your children about safety, and show them that you take pride in your home and your neighborhood - even if it isn't the envy of the rest of the world!

[akmommy]

Considering the statistics you gave for your area my kids wouldn't have very much freedom at all.

 

We are fortunate to live in a tiny neighborhood in a semi rural community with very little violant crime. Drugs are the biggest problem here and they are pretty invisible (no pushers on the street corners). Most of the violant crime can be avoided by not being involved in criminal activity. So our kids have fair amount of freedom. The 9 and 11yr old pretty much have the run of the street as long as they are within shouting distance. They can go further if the 16yr old is with them(she will carry a cell phone if they go for a walk or bike ride very far from home). Our neighborhood is kind of out of the way so we get very little traffic and riding bikes or playing ball in the street is good safe fun. As the weather gets warmer and the days get longer they will be out till 10:30-11pm playing with the neighbor kids.

 

Our old house was right on the corner at the edge of the boundary between residential and commercial properties. We had a small yard and no fence, and the intersection was downright dangerous. As a result our oldest did not learn to ride a bike until she was 9 just becaused we had no safe place near home for her to learn. I can't tell you how happy I was move from there.

 

We do have one sex offender who is registered in this neighborhood, but I have never seen him. I showed my kids his photo and told them that if he ever approaches them they are not to talk to him, but run home and tell DH or I immediately. They also know that they are not to go in anyones house without permission and getting permission means mom or dad have met and approved the parent(s), and the parent(s) is/are home at the time.

Edited May 2, 2009 by akmommy

[Mommyof4ks]

Could you go to a park in a lower crime area or perhaps camping? That would give them some freedom eve if it was not at home. Given your neighborhood stats I would certainly not give them much freedom. My kids have a good bit of freedom, but our stats are laughably low. We still get emails from the city alerting us of items stolen from yards lol.

[Liz CA]

Yeah, I think Tacoma would not be my first choice of places to raise a free-range kid. We're about half an hour east of you, if you are ever able to make a move out of the city I highly recommend it. :)

 

We lived in a suburban neighborhood for my ds's first 7 years and since then we have lived very much in the country (15 minutes from the paved highway).

 

When we were in suburbia, I was outside when ds was outside. When he walked to a friend's house, 2 houses down from ours, I watched from the sidewalk until he was inside.

We lived on a cul-de-sac with much too easy access to nearby train tracks. There were also a few people living in the neighborhood with police records - but nothing what you detailed in your post.

 

With your situation, I would never leave a child outside without an adult. I would also teach them (and make sure by endless repetition and role play that they never forget it) what to do if they are approached by a stranger.

There was a program called "Stranger Danger" when my son was young and a lot of those principles taught were sound IMHO.

 

Once we moved to the country, I was much more relaxed. But even in a small town (approx. 3000 people) we have 2 pedophiles living in town. The one benefit is that the majority of people know each other and everyone watches out for each other's kids.

 

I sincerely hope you will be able to find a home where you and your children can feel safer.

[joannqn]

Could you go to a park in a lower crime area or perhaps camping? That would give them some freedom eve if it was not at home. Given your neighborhood stats I would certainly not give them much freedom. My kids have a good bit of freedom, but our stats are laughably low. We still get emails from the city alerting us of items stolen from yards lol.

 

We do go to parks a lot and the kids have the run of the entire playground and sometimes the areas around it.

 

I can't imagine the city caring about items stolen from yards. We had a stroller stolen from our front porch. On a hunch, we contacted the local resale stores and found it. The resale store had records of who they bought it from, complete with an address. The police wasn't interested in pursuing it. We got an awesome city counsel member to apply pressure and the police did visit the person but wouldn't prosecute. They said that they couldn't prove that the person who sold it to the store was the same person who stole it. Last time I checked being in possession of stolen property was also a crime. A neighbor has also had a stroller stolen from their porch. Packages go missing as well.

[sunshine]

How awful for you! I wouldn't let my kids outside alone that's for sure. With all that I'd be out there all the time. Back yard, maybe. Is it fenced? With a high fence? Do you have a dog you could let out with the kids in the high fenced back yard?

 

I don't have near the issues in your neighborhood, but I don't let my kids play out front alone until they are 8. They can go outside with an older sib at 6. Backyard is almost as bad. We have a greenway off our backyard and no fence. So you can play outside alone at 5 but there has to be a dog out there with you and I (or dh) has to be downstairs. What I'm saying is that I'm not that free with my kids going outside alone even at my house.

I grew up in Cary, NC and live in Savannah, GA (the outskirts) and I never let my kids play outside alone. World is too creepy. But we live in a very quiet neighborhood with hardly any traffic but still that one second of not watching.....

[kalanamak]

I

 

Despite the neighborhood, I'm very slowly adding more freedom...just not the same amount that they'd have somewhere else. And I know there's no place that's totally safe. I had a huge amount of freedom compared to my kids yet things still happened...so I know.

 

Bring them over with your paperwork and let them play at my house. You don't have to keep us company. Hubby is scraping the 2nd half of the house before re-varnishing it, and kiddo would love kids to run around with. He finds Papa a bit boring when he is up a ladder. The creek park is divine when it is 90 degrees.