I am so mad I can spit!

[Jean in Newcastle]

Why am I the only law-abiding dog owner in this town? I have two very friendly and gentle Springer Spaniels. They have been socialized for dog and human contact. However, my bigger male dog has been attacked twice by an unleashed dog (the same dog) on walks. Now if he is on a leash and an unleashed dog comes running up, he attacks first. The younger female has not been personally attacked but takes her cues from her brother and so now she will attack too. They do not have problems when they are unleashed with other dogs at the dog park etc.

 

My male dog is fairly well-trained but I have to admit that he is not a dog that I can jog or walk alongside while he is off-leash. I have great envy for dog owners who can do that and still have voice control of their dog. My dog will come - only once he's run and run and run and has tired himself out. So, when I'm on a walk or at a non dog park I have to leash my dog.

 

We went to the park today to get algae for a science experiment. We took the dogs. There were a lot of dogs unleashed and running after balls. No problem. But then there was a woman walking with her dog on the path. I immediately went to the side and put my dogs in a "sit" with tight leash control. I called to the woman that my dogs were not friendly. She (clue-less) says "Oh, they don't want to play?" and lets her dog come barreling up to mine who are now growling and lunging while I try to keep control. I'm yelling at her to get her dog away and to leash him. She does this - slooooooowly while she tells me in a peeved voice, "You and your dogs don't have to be so mean". :mad:

 

Ok - so we go over to the picnic table and start to have our pre-science lunch. My dogs are tied to the picnic bench. Another lady with another unleashed dog comes toward us. I again call (nicely but firmly) "My dogs will attack. Please get your dog away." No response. She lets her dog come nosing among my dogs who are again lunging and barking. She only grabs her dog after I grab him and pull him away. :banghead:

 

I have worked for months with my dogs to get them to stay calm in a "sit" position while other dogs go by them on the path. By law all dogs are supposed to be on leash (though personally I have no problem with an unleashed well-behaved dog that is under good voice control). But this made me so mad. If my dogs bite one of these people or their dogs I will get in trouble. I should have the right to take my dogs on a walk.

[Ria]

I'm sure you love your dogs, Jean, but honestly, if they are mean enough to attack another dog and cause injury while leashed, I'm not sure you should have them in public places. Leash laws should be enforced, but they aren't and you are aware of that. To bring vicious dogs to a public place knowing their tendency to attack if approached seems like asking for trouble.

 

I do understand your frustration, but wishing people would obey the law isn't going to make it so, kwim? I'd hate to see you get in trouble because of something you could have prevented.

 

Ria

[Jean in Newcastle]

But they aren't vicious when someone has their dog under control and walks calmly around them. It is only when someone lets their dog come charging up to my dogs who then see it as another attack.

[Ria]

But they aren't vicious when someone has their dog under control and walks calmly around them. It is only when someone lets their dog come charging up to my dogs who then see it as another attack.

 

I understand now. I agree it's not fair. Do you think there is any way to retrain them? Retrain isn't the right word....I mean could you possibly desensitize them to other dogs? (Am I making sense? It's been a long day!)

 

Ria

[Spy Car]

Dogs (especially ones that have been attacked themselves) are much more likely to "attack" other dogs when they on on-leash, rather than off. As they are more vulnerable, and they know it. It doesn't mean they are "vicious", just smart.

 

Bill

[OneRoomSchoolHouse]

Not to sounds mean or insensitive, but a muzzle would work. It would allow the dogs to have fun on their leashes and keep you out of hot water should they bite someone. I worked for a Vet clinic in college and we always required certain animals to wear muzzles. The dogs can be trained to like them if you begin with a few minutes each day and move up the wearing time until they are completely comfortable with wearing one. You could remove the muzzles for eating and drinking at the park when you are in a secured location. Just a suggestion...and they are not painful as some people might be led to believe.

[chaik76]

But they aren't vicious when someone has their dog under control and walks calmly around them. It is only when someone lets their dog come charging up to my dogs who then see it as another attack.

I agree it's not fair, but if your dogs attack another dog first (even if the other dogs are unleashed or come charging up to your dog) you are most likely going to be the one found responsible.

 

I understand that others aren't following the rules and you are, but it's actually dangerous to have your dogs out at this point if they will attack anyone, anything, or any animal.

 

They really need to be trained to not attack, and it can be done. It is irresponsible to have them around other dogs if they act this way.

 

Sorry, I know that's not what you wanted to hear, but it's true.

[Paz]

I can relate. We have a leash law in our neighborhood. My one dog for some reason does not like little dogs, especially poodles. I don't know how many little dogs have come charging at her off their leashes. I have ended up carrying my 35 lb. dog home from the walk to avoid the attack poodles. :glare:

[Jean in Newcastle]

Dogs (especially ones that have been attacked themselves) are much more likely to "attack" other dogs when they on on-leash, rather than off. As they are more vulnerable, and they know it. It doesn't mean they are "vicious", just smart.

 

Bill

 

Exactly. That is why we go to the off-leash dog park and they have a wonderful time with their doggy pals.

 

But the nearest off-leash dog park is a half hour away. I can't always take them there.

[camibami]

I can relate. We have a leash law in our neighborhood. My one dog for some reason does not like little dogs, especially poodles. I don't know how many little dogs have come charging at her off their leashes. I have ended up carrying my 35 lb. dog home from the walk to avoid the attack poodles. :glare:

_______________________________________

 

This is our experience, too!!!

Little dogs *hate* our Lab. She has been attacked by ****-zhus, to the point where they are literally hanging off her neck with their teeth buried, when we lived in Mississippi! So she isn't real fond of them, as you can imagine.

 

When we are on a walk, I cross the street or move off the sidewalk and pull Cleo close. She is well behaved and doesn't pull, etc, and I also tell the person that Cleo is not friendly to dogs. 9 times out of 10, the person walking the little dog lets it alllll the way out on its leash, where it promptly lunges as poor Cleo. Then Cleo gets up, her hair raised, growls, and the owner of the little dog (who was warned repeatedly and whose dog started it) picks up poor Fifi and looks at me like I"m the owner of a viscious killer. Puh-leeze.

 

We walk at night mostly to avoid this, actually. Dog parks are fine, as the dogs off leash are better behaved, and mostly big dogs, anyway.

[Jean in Newcastle]

I agree it's not fair, but if your dogs attack another dog first (even if the other dogs are unleashed or come charging up to your dog) you are most likely going to be the one found responsible.

 

I understand that others aren't following the rules and you are, but it's actually dangerous to have your dogs out at this point if they will attack anyone, anything, or any animal.

 

They really need to be trained to not attack, and it can be done. It is irresponsible to have them around other dogs if they act this way.

 

Sorry, I know that's not what you wanted to hear, but it's true.

 

So how do I train them not to attack? I am trying to do this. That is why I've trained them to go into a "sit- stay" mode when other dogs go walking by. But if a dog comes charging at them they immediately feel threatened. Is it possible to retrain them so that they won't feel threatened - esp. when another dog did actually attack my male in the past?

 

So, that's why I use my voice to warn other owners to keep their dogs under control. Most owners will nod and will take their dog quietly around us. Except for the occasional clueless ones like we met today.

 

It made me mad because if there is a dog fight my kids or myself could get hurt. Now so far there has never been an actual fight - my dogs bark and lunge but I've managed to control them. If there is an actual fight I've decided that I should drop the leash so my dogs will not be hampered by the leash and so that we won't get tangled up.

[Jean in Newcastle]

Not to sounds mean or insensitive, but a muzzle would work. It would allow the dogs to have fun on their leashes and keep you out of hot water should they bite someone. I worked for a Vet clinic in college and we always required certain animals to wear muzzles. The dogs can be trained to like them if you begin with a few minutes each day and move up the wearing time until they are completely comfortable with wearing one. You could remove the muzzles for eating and drinking at the park when you are in a secured location. Just a suggestion...and they are not painful as some people might be led to believe.

 

Sigh. I guess I should look into getting a muzzle. But it seems unfair to put one on them when they are just afraid of getting hurt again. And if they are attacked again, they won't be able to defend themselves.

[vettechmomof2]

You really should get them into a training class as by giving the voice command and the tighening of their leashes by you: you are giving them mixed signals of stress and tension. Obviously it is within reaosn to be nervous about it but they do not understand human reasoning.

I would recommend an obedience class,small setting to get the focus back on you and not the other dog. THen for a while you need to only take one dog with you at a time so that you can reinforce the good behavior learned.

Consistency is the key with them, it can be hard but def. talk with a few different trainers.

Good luck.

[Danestress]

You should be able to walk in the local park and expect other dogs to be on leashes if that's the law. I'm surprised so many people are letting their dogs run off leash if the law requires otherwise!

[Heather in AL]

Seriously. I lost respect for off leash dogs long ago when we (me, dh, and both dc) were walking along OUR STREET and nearly attacked by three off leash cockers (they circled us and started 'closing in'!). For three years, the neighborhood association sent 'nasty grams' reminding the owners of the leash law. The excuse was "they *just* got off the leash when coming into/going out of the house. Uh-huh. I'll buy that once or twice, but not every.day.for.three.years. It seemed like I was the ONLY ONE willing to do anything, which made me look differently at my neighbors. Anyway, I called animal control and reported them, then went and bought dog mace. I'd *really* hate to use it, but I REFUSE to allow my family or my dog be bullied by another dog. I keep it hanging on the leash handle (next to my thingy of poo bags). Several times I have pulled it up (high enough for the owner to see), and have yelled "get your dog away NOW or I'll mace it!". That has worked every time. On the occasions I get 'looks' or nasty comments, my reply has been that not everyone likes your dog, and besides, there is a leash law that applies to everyone.

 

My thing is that, yes, I have an 18 lb dog...but that doesn't mean I like ALL DOGS! In fact, I'm a bit scared around dogs, as I was attacked when I was three and bitten three times on each leg. I need to be REALLY comforetable around dogs before I even THINK of looking at them or petting them. People just don't seem to get it. I made sure the mace was legal, and I (and my dh) have NO cumpunction about using it, if necessary.

 

I am an animal lover, and it would make me bawl like a baby to have to mace a dog, but I am sick and tired of people not getting that there is a LAW and they are breaking it. I would mace a dog any day over putting a muzzle on my dog because of others' actions. To me, that would make the aggression worse....knowing it's tied to a leash AND unable to defend against (i.e. BITE) the offender. Besides...you and your dog have done nothing wrong.

 

I also carry the local police numbers (non-emergency) and animal control numbers for both the nearby cities where we walk our dog. I report ALL the off leash dogs I come across and tell them to get someone to that park, or wherever. The fact that children are there and an uncontrolled animal is loose is an accident waiting to happen.

 

I am also to the point where I am thinking of contacting a lawyer and asking about the liability issue. If *I* am following the law, and *my* dog is leashed when she bites someone who is trying to get their *unleashed* dog away from *my* legally restrained dog, would I honestly be liable? It makes NO sense to me. I really need to check that out.

 

Sorry for such a long post, but this is one of my *HOT* temper topics!!

[Renthead Mommy]

Seriously. I lost respect for off leash dogs long ago when we (me, dh, and both dc) were walking along OUR STREET and nearly attacked by three off leash cockers (they circled us and started 'closing in'!). For three years, the neighborhood association sent 'nasty grams' reminding the owners of the leash law. The excuse was "they *just* got off the leash when coming into/going out of the house. Uh-huh. I'll buy that once or twice, but not every.day.for.three.years. It seemed like I was the ONLY ONE willing to do anything, which made me look differently at my neighbors. Anyway, I called animal control and reported them, then went and bought dog mace. I'd *really* hate to use it, but I REFUSE to allow my family or my dog be bullied by another dog. I keep it hanging on the leash handle (next to my thingy of poo bags). Several times I have pulled it up (high enough for the owner to see), and have yelled "get your dog away NOW or I'll mace it!". That has worked every time. On the occasions I get 'looks' or nasty comments, my reply has been that not everyone likes your dog, and besides, there is a leash law that applies to everyone.

 

 

 

I agree with you. I was going to suggest mace also. And other dogs running at your dog may just as easily be running at your kid.

[kalanamak]

I'm sure you love your dogs, Jean, but honestly, if they are mean enough to attack another dog and cause injury while leashed, I'm not sure you should have them in public places.

 

Many dogs who are tailwaggy off leash feel trapped and on the defensive on a leash. If a dog runs up to mine (in the past) with hostility, I drop my leash so my dog can defend itself, and so I don't get bitten, either.

[Jean in Newcastle]

You really should get them into a training class as by giving the voice command and the tighening of their leashes by you: you are giving them mixed signals of stress and tension. Obviously it is within reaosn to be nervous about it but they do not understand human reasoning.

I would recommend an obedience class,small setting to get the focus back on you and not the other dog. THen for a while you need to only take one dog with you at a time so that you can reinforce the good behavior learned.

Consistency is the key with them, it can be hard but def. talk with a few different trainers.

Good luck.

 

OK - this is very good advice. You are so correct - I am giving them signals of my own nervousness when a big dog runs at them.

[LaxMom]

I agree with you. I was going to suggest mace also. And other dogs running at your dog may just as easily be running at your kid.

 

Make that a third vote. My dog is extremely gentle and friendly with children, dogs, and cats (even our 18 yo.o. cat that jumps on her face when she walks by). Hell, she lies in the grass with birds landing a foot or so away from her and doesn't move. But if she's leashed, she can be very aggressive if approached by an unleashed dog; she feels handicapped and vulnerable.

 

I would not hesitate to pepper spray an animal that was running at me, my dog and/or my children, clearly outside the control of its owner. As far as I'm concerned, that animal is on the attack. Frankly, if you start spraying unleashed, out of control dogs, maybe the owners will be more cognizant of keeping them under control in public.

[Supertechmom]

We've had issues with dogs running toward us. Out in here in deep south , animal control said any dog running toward a person is considered aggressive and do WHATEVER you have to do. You are within your right to defend. IF it digs under a fence or comes through a fence, it is viewed as highly aggressive. IF it charges out of it's yard, it's high and aggravated aggression or some phrase like that. IF it fails to respond to voice commands of the owner, drop it in its tracks. Call animal control and see what they have to say and then call the police and see what they recommend. Animal control said whatever we felt was necessary and police said just shoot loose dogs:001_huh: At least then you would know fully how to respond

 

The mace sounds like a great idea. I never thought of macing a dog. I'm going to get some for that very purpose. That sits better with me than toting a pistol and big stick.

[Danestress]

I would not hesitate to pepper spray an animal that was running at me, my dog and/or my children, clearly outside the control of its owner. As far as I'm concerned, that animal is on the attack.

 

 

 

that while I am firmly on the side of the "if the law says 'leash' then you should leash your dog or accept the consequences of having an unleashed dog that won't listen do you," it's still a fairly simple thing to learn to "read" a dog so that you don't have to assume that any dog that approaches you is on the attack. I recommend "How to Speak Dog" by Coren Stanley. I'm not sure why some dogs seem to have a difficult time picking up that language and react defensively. But anyway, I'm not saying that it's your job to interpret another dog correctly, but just wanted to say that if you are interested, it's out there.

[Jean in Newcastle]

that while I am firmly on the side of the "if the law says 'leash' then you should leash your dog or accept the consequences of having an unleashed dog that won't listen do you," it's still a fairly simple thing to learn to "read" a dog so that you don't have to assume that any dog that approaches you is on the attack. I recommend "How to Speak Dog" by Coren Stanley. I'm not sure why some dogs seem to have a difficult time picking up that language and react defensively. But anyway, I'm not saying that it's your job to interpret another dog correctly, but just wanted to say that if you are interested, it's out there.

 

Most of the time, I think I can "read" dog fairly well. But the dog that attacked mine was a chow mix that looked totally friendly and calm - until he turned and suddenly attacked. The second time he attacked (on another walk) I was trying to back away quickly since I knew he was bad news but he just kept coming. I did report the owner to animal control. I don't know what they did but I'm fairly sure they did something because I noticed that she had her dog on a leash for about a month (until things calmed down and animal control wasn't patrolling anymore).

[Danestress]

it doesn't really matter whether the dog is being friendly or not - your dog gets upset and aggressive because the dog isn't on a leash.

 

I was just saying that for people who want to carry mace and are willing to use it, they don't have to use it on a dog unnecessarily because they assume that every approaching dog is on the attack. They could learn a bit about how to distinguish between an attacking (or even anxious) dog and one that is truly just sniffing them out.

[chaik76]

So how do I train them not to attack? I am trying to do this. That is why I've trained them to go into a "sit- stay" mode when other dogs go walking by. But if a dog comes charging at them they immediately feel threatened. Is it possible to retrain them so that they won't feel threatened - esp. when another dog did actually attack my male in the past?

 

So, that's why I use my voice to warn other owners to keep their dogs under control. Most owners will nod and will take their dog quietly around us. Except for the occasional clueless ones like we met today.

 

It made me mad because if there is a dog fight my kids or myself could get hurt. Now so far there has never been an actual fight - my dogs bark and lunge but I've managed to control them. If there is an actual fight I've decided that I should drop the leash so my dogs will not be hampered by the leash and so that we won't get tangled up.

 

I understand you are trying to do all you can. There are a couple of ways you can go here. There are classes you can take your dogs to. I also recommend Cesar Millan (The Dog Whisperer) because he deals specifically with dogs like these. There are a couple of books, the tv show, and you can actually email him.

 

Probably you also conveny nervousness because you "know" what's going to happen. This is really important not to show.

 

I can try and look up a couple more resources for you...

[Peek a Boo]

I'm sure you love your dogs, Jean, but honestly, if they are mean enough to attack another dog and cause injury while leashed, I'm not sure you should have them in public places. Leash laws should be enforced, but they aren't and you are aware of that. To bring vicious dogs to a public place knowing their tendency to attack if approached seems like asking for trouble.

 

I do understand your frustration, but wishing people would obey the law isn't going to make it so, kwim? I'd hate to see you get in trouble because of something you could have prevented.

 

Ria

 

even w/ all the good advice you've received so far, this is still the biggest point. The best course of action is to get them professionally trained. It will likely cost several hundred dollars, but will be worth Every. Penny. and might cost your family MORE if it isn't resolved soon.

 

Call a trainer in the morning and request a professional evaluation ASAP. That might include boarding the dog w/ them for awhile.

 

even if you drop the leash or carry mace, if the two dogs REALLY get into a nasty fight, there will be more harm than protection [in more ways than one].

 

if you have warned several people in public vocally about your dogs, SOMEone/s is going to remember. If and when something tragic happens, that SOMEone/s may come forward and testify about your knowledge. That will put YOU at fault, even if person B was breaking the law. Think about it: if criminals can sue homeowners for getting hurt during a break-in, what's to keep owners of at-large dogs from suing you? At best, you can still be found guilty of endangering the public and your dogs could be impounded and quarantined. It sucks, but lotsa people freak out over dogs that even APPEAR to be aggressive.

 

good luck!

[Laura Corin]

So how do I train them not to attack?

 

My dog's trainer uses a spray bottle of water and sprays it in the dog's face for truly bad behaviour. It seems to work well. Could you carry a small bottle and spray your dogs as soon as they lunge?

 

Best wishes

 

Laura

[NCMom]

I agree w/several of the posters above.

 

I would find a trainer ASAP because you have liability issues. Right now the problem only occurs on leash but it may progress. I pretty much only use positive reinforcement techniques on my dogs and would recommend that you find someone who does clicker training, etc. In imho, aversives work in the short term and do not fix the problem (which is 99% of the time the owner, it always is for me anyway,lol).

 

And I would NOT be nice to the person allowing their dog to lunge at yours. In a sweet but loud tone say - "These dogs are in training. KEEP your dog AWAY or I WILL mace (or whatever) your dog right NOW." Also this will allow you to relax and not tighten up on the leash, which is probably part of what is cuing the dogs to freak.

 

I had a dog that had issues and trying to proof her in public was torture. She was a gorgeous dog and sooo many idiots would let their dog lunge at her while they were practically running towards her, even while she was totally going beserk! :001_huh:

 

:grouphug:

 

I'm sorry that you have to deal with this.

 

Georgia

[Jean in Newcastle]

I really appreciate all the advice. I am actively training the dogs and plan to work with them further specifically on this issue. Ironically - I often work with a trainer - as an assistant! But I can see that in this issue my own nervousness and reaction to the previous attacks have made the problem worse. I do recognize that I need them to be able to be calm in a variety of circumstances - not just when conditions are controlled. My previous attempts at training didn't really take that into account and I will change that. I am concerned about the liability issues too. Even if I feel like I'm in the right, I don't really want to have to argue that in court!

[SonshineLearner]

I'm wondering about the law, though. Are you sure, that if the other dogs are off-leash...that you would be responsible? Especially in the dog situation?? I think here, that it's the off-leash dog that gets "charged" because they aren't "under contol" I had this problem when I first got my dog...mine on leash...someone else's off leash....(actually, the first 2 months I had my dog...from the humane society... he got lunged at by one dog...and bitten by two others... I started to think that every time we went out....we'd have a problem!)

Oh yes..about just saying something besides "They'll attack!" My trainer said to say something like "Leash your dogs!" or "Get your dogs" or something....to just put the responsibility on them...without admitting anything. Because...really...it's their dog that needs to be controlled...your's is on a leash...

Carrie:-)

Edited May 1, 2009 by NayfiesMama

[Stacy in NJ]

Just a quick suggestion. Get a good whistle and wear it around your neck when you take them for a walk. If another dog approaches quickly, unleashed, blow it. It will startle the approaching dog. It's just a way of letting them know that approaching you isn't a good idea.

[KidsHappen]

Dogs (especially ones that have been attacked themselves) are much more likely to "attack" other dogs when they on on-leash, rather than off. As they are more vulnerable, and they know it. It doesn't mean they are "vicious", just smart.

 

Bill

 

Absolutely! And putting them in the sit-stay position actually makes it worse. Basically you are asking your dog to put himself at the mercy of the other dog. Generally speaking a dog is more comfortable if they are allowed to stand and the dogs can sniff each other out. However, since your dogs have now developed a risky reaction to approaching unleashed dogs, you probably need a professional to help you correct this situation.

 

I absolutely agree with you, Jean, about people letting their dogs off leash if the are not under perfect voice control. We have a golden which we walk in our neighborhood all the time. He is great with other dogs on leash, dogs off leash that are under good voice control and even dogs that approach slowly. We take him to Petsmart, the vet, the groomers and parks and he is fine with all those situations. He is even fine if a very small dog comes barreling up yapping like crazy. One day though we took him to soccer field and there was someone there with an off leash lab that was probably about 9 months old. They had absolutely no control over their dog and he came racing up to my dog. I put my dog in a sit-stay and he did well but it was very hard for him and I could tell that he was overly anxious. Once I could tell that the other dog was not going to attack but was just checking the situation out and my dog could tell that he was basically still just a puppy, I let my dog stand and proceed with the sniffing procedure. I was not happy with the other owner at all though. They dog would not come when called and they did not even come over to get their dog. Their dog did not even have a collar so there would have been no easy way for me to pull him off if he had decided to attack. There was potential for disaster and it made me very uncomfortable.

[Peek a Boo]

I'm wondering about the law, though. Are you sure, that if the other dogs are off-leash...that you would be responsible? Especially in the dog situation?? I think here, that it's the off-leash dog that gets "charged" because they aren't "under contol"

 

usually, yeah, THEY would be teh ones at fault. But as Ria pointed out, if YOU KNOW that your dogs will react adversely, that places an extra burden on you, even if someone else breaks the law. It would be up to the judges of each area, and wouldn't place my confidence in that unless i knew the judge ;)

 

 

Oh yes..about just saying something besides "They'll attack!" My trainer said to say something like "Leash your dogs!" or "Get your dogs" or something....to just put the responsibility on them...without admitting anything. Because...really...it's their dog that needs to be controlled...your's is on a leash...

Carrie:-)

 

this is great --but if people have SEEN your dogs get snarly and "look" vicious, that will be taken into account too. :-(