Sue G in PA Posted April 18, 2009 Share Posted April 18, 2009 Here is the situation. My 12 yo dd is extremely disrespectful toward me and her father. When she is corrected, when she gets angry or upset about something, thinks that we have been unfair to her, etc., she will often lash out, call us names, call us unfair, liars, accuse us of hating her or loving her siblings more, etc. I realize that much of this is normal adolescent "hormonal" outbursts. We ignore most of it. Yesterday, she blew up at my husband b/c he sent her to her room for a time-out b/c she had just hit her 6yo brother. She felt it unfair b/c 6yo bro was not disciplined (punished) as she would have liked. So, back and forth, back and forth the argument goes and she is warned that she needs to stop, close her mouth and cool down in her room before she says or does something she will regreat. Dh tells her to go back to her room and dd proceeds to walk by dh and punch him in the back as hard as she can. Dh reacts by yelling that she can not go to Hershey Park with her friend on Sunday (tomorrow). Dd starts crying, calls me to her room and through her sobs tells me that she is sorry, she didn't mean to hit him, she just "reacted" without thinking and that she knows her punishment will still stand but that she really just didn't think before she acted. Now, in my mind, taking away her trip to Hershey Park won't teach her anything. Similar consequences in the past have not worked either. Not to mention, the tickets were already purchased in advance, by her friend's family and to tell them she can't go at the last minute makes them out about $40. Not good. Now, I'm not saying there should not be consequences...but what? I'm leaning toward grace-based parenting b/c it just feels "right" in my spirit. Punitive parenting has not worked. So, if you do GBP (or GBD...grace based discipline), what would you do in this situation? How would you respond? Thanks for any suggestions or advice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mommaduck Posted April 18, 2009 Share Posted April 18, 2009 I would pay her friend's family the $40, not let her go, and take the money out of her allowance/account/make her work it off. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JudoMom Posted April 18, 2009 Share Posted April 18, 2009 Here is the situation. My 12 yo dd is extremely disrespectful toward me and her father. When she is corrected, when she gets angry or upset about something, thinks that we have been unfair to her, etc., she will often lash out, call us names, call us unfair, liars, accuse us of hating her or loving her siblings more, etc. I realize that much of this is normal adolescent "hormonal" outbursts. We ignore most of it. Yesterday, she blew up at my husband b/c he sent her to her room for a time-out b/c she had just hit her 6yo brother. She felt it unfair b/c 6yo bro was not disciplined (punished) as she would have liked. So, back and forth, back and forth the argument goes and she is warned that she needs to stop, close her mouth and cool down in her room before she says or does something she will regreat. Dh tells her to go back to her room and dd proceeds to walk by dh and punch him in the back as hard as she can. Dh reacts by yelling that she can not go to Hershey Park with her friend on Sunday (tomorrow). Dd starts crying, calls me to her room and through her sobs tells me that she is sorry, she didn't mean to hit him, she just "reacted" without thinking and that she knows her punishment will still stand but that she really just didn't think before she acted. Now, in my mind, taking away her trip to Hershey Park won't teach her anything. Similar consequences in the past have not worked either. Not to mention, the tickets were already purchased in advance, by her friend's family and to tell them she can't go at the last minute makes them out about $40. Not good. Now, I'm not saying there should not be consequences...but what? I'm leaning toward grace-based parenting b/c it just feels "right" in my spirit. Punitive parenting has not worked. So, if you do GBP (or GBD...grace based discipline), what would you do in this situation? How would you respond? Thanks for any suggestions or advice. I would make dd spend the day working for/with Dad so she could reimburse the family for the $40 ticket. Under no circumstance would I allow her to go to the park. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ria Posted April 18, 2009 Share Posted April 18, 2009 (edited) I would pay her friend's family the $40, not let her go, and take the money out of her allowance/account/make her work it off. I totally agree. To be honest, she doesn't just sound disrespectful, she sounds like she's really got anger and self-control issues (she's hit both her brother and her father in short order). Have you considered having her see a counselor? What you are describing is not normal hormonal stuff. ETA: I'm not sure why she's allowed to argue, either. That isn't helping anyone, but is certainly helping to fuel her anger issue. Ria Edited April 18, 2009 by Ria Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emmy Posted April 18, 2009 Share Posted April 18, 2009 ETA: I'm not sure why she's allowed to argue.... I have a question about this comment. I don't believe in allowing kids to argue either (and I'm sure the OP doesn't - I mean does anyone encourage arguing in kids lol) but I'm having more difficulty lately getting the arguing to stop. So - how do you lock it down? If you say - I won't allow you to argue with me, go to your room (or time out, or whatever) and then the child continues - how do you stop it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
secular_mom Posted April 18, 2009 Share Posted April 18, 2009 Honestly, our rules are that if you are NOT able to control your behavior and treat people respectfully AT HOME, then you have NO business going out into the world to mistreat other people. In order to have the 'privilege' of such trips and outside classes, park days, etc., then my kids have to be well behaved at home. It's really hard on everyone, to switch parenting styles, and it's very easy to be 'too soft' when using GBD, because it's easy to see where the kid's behavior is coming from. BUT, understanding a child's behavior/reaction (which I'm really not sure of, in this instance) does NOT mean that the child's behavior is OKAY. If a child that old can not stop herself from hitting family members when she's angry, I don't see what would stop her from hitting friends/strangers if she got angry with them. Does that make sense? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
secular_mom Posted April 18, 2009 Share Posted April 18, 2009 I remove MYSELF from the situation, by going to my room and locking the door. I'll turn on my TV, or some music, or turn the fan on in the bathroom and read a book. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sumiller Posted April 18, 2009 Share Posted April 18, 2009 Sue, I'm not sure what the best answer is but let me ask you this. . .if your daughter didn't have plans to go to Hershey park tomorrow with her friend, what would have been your and your husband's course of action for consequences/punishment? I completely understand the other poster's advice but I also come from the perspective of having raised a rebellious teenage daughter. I think there are times when they push our buttons and we react quickly and with no forethought on the matter. It sounds like she pushed your husband's buttons. When my daughter would do something similar, my dh and I would respond with an immediate and swift consequence similar to what the others are suggesting you do; but I will say that looking back I wish I had on a few occasions taken the time to reach her at the heart of the matter and focused less on the outward obedience. Now, I wholeheartedly believe your daughter needs to suffer consequences but maybe it could be something other than taking away her day with her friend. Maybe it could entail losing more than just one afternoon out at a park. I would consider something that required her spending a bit of time thinking through her actions and talking to you and your husband about why she thinks its okay to act out this way. Like I said, I don't have a cut and dried answer because every situation is different as every child is different. You mentioned it doesn't feel right in your 'spirit', have you prayed about what to do? What does your husband think? I will be praying for you, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danestress Posted April 18, 2009 Share Posted April 18, 2009 I would pay her friend's family the $40, not let her go, and take the money out of her allowance/account/make her work it off. I agree. I'm not sure if I can say we are "grace based" parents because I'm not sure what that means, but I can tell you that I almost never punish my children. I really can't think of the last time anyone in this house was punished. But the reason I would let the punishment stand and make her work off the money is that she *punched her father* and he laid down that punishment. However you feel about it in your spirit, I think how he's feeling in his spirit is pretty important and if this is what he told her, I would leave it to him to change his mind if he wants, but I personally don't think he should. This doesn't really sound like normal teen hormonal stuff. When you get to the point where a kid is punching a parent (in the back, face, wherever) you have a bigger problem than that. Being female isn't a license to punch, and I would ask myself, "How would I feel if a male child punched the female parent? How would I feel if she punched her sibling?" What would happen to your husband if he punched you? What would happen if she got mad at a friend and punched her? It's the same issue of self control. She sounds angry and unhappy and out of control, and I would be in therapy with this one. I would show her love and concern and I would be friendly and kind to her. I wouldn't be escalating the drama or rejecting her right now, but you can be sure I wouldn't be sending her off to Hershey Park for a fun day because "she just reacted." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ria Posted April 18, 2009 Share Posted April 18, 2009 I have a question about this comment. I don't believe in allowing kids to argue either (and I'm sure the OP doesn't - I mean does anyone encourage arguing in kids lol) but I'm having more difficulty lately getting the arguing to stop. So - how do you lock it down? If you say - I won't allow you to argue with me, go to your room (or time out, or whatever) and then the child continues - how do you stop it? Have a consequence for arguing...something that will really cause the child to think twice the next time, lol. For example, you might let it be known that arguing is no longer allowed. (We went so far as to tell the kids the following: "The only acceptable response is 'Yes, Mom' or 'Yes, Dad.'") LOL. The kids can still recite it verbatim, even the 20-year olds (and no, we don't expect them to say it anymore, they just tease us!). Anyway, once the kids know that arguing will not be tolerated, let them know the consequences for arguing. First, go to their room. If they continue to argue, they now get one unpleasant chore (cleaning the bathroom? washing the cars? weeding a particularly overgrown flower bed? surely you can think of something). If arguing still continues, perhaps you can take away an activity (Awana, an outing with a friend, etc). This approach worked for us....do you think it might work with your kiddos? Ria Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JVA Posted April 18, 2009 Share Posted April 18, 2009 I agree with the other posters....she needs tighter boundaries. Grace must be balanced with TRUTH. The truth is she's out of control and disrespectful. If she was mine, she wouldn't be going to Hershey nor anywhere else for a month. During that month, there would be intensive chores, serving her family, reduced priveledges and lots of oversight about her attitude. She should pay back the family for the ticket. This is not fun, I know...we've had some strong-willed folks living at my house. Disrespect is nipped at the bud. Two children have had their rooms completely emptied- clothing, games, posters, CDs, sports equip etc... They've had nothing but a mattress on the floor and pillow/blanket. They slowly EARNED their possessions back. I would constantly reassure her that because you love her, you cannot allow her to behave this way. Since there was an escalation of bad behavior, something drastic should happen to get the correction across. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nestof3 Posted April 18, 2009 Share Posted April 18, 2009 Sue, I don't really feel like I can offer you much help on what your daughter needs as I have never experienced what is considered "normal hormonal stuff" with Aaron. Yes, we have had altercations, but I would say they were times we both "lost our cool." It sounds to me like there are some pretty deep relational issue between your daughter and you/your husband. I'm not sure how many things have built up, but I tried to really deal with each difference of opinion/difficulty very thoroughly along the way. But, I personally would break ties with friends until a proper relationship is restored with you and your husband. I do not see such anger and rebellion toward parents as a natural thing -- perhaps natural in a fleshly, sinful way but certainly not in an "it's acceptable because everyone does it" way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mom4him Posted April 18, 2009 Share Posted April 18, 2009 I stand with the other posters in not letting her go and 'letting' her pay for the ticket. I would also cut off pretty much all other activities that didn't involve either you or your husband, not for long but for time. I would then take make extra effort to spend one on one time with her. Make her a 'part' of everything you do for a time. While you are working with her be visiting with her about yourself, her, life etc. Find out where her heart is. I would guess it will be a really push for a time but eventually you will start to find out why she is feeling this anger. We had our two in counciling for a yr or so but from our experience the councilor simply wanted to give the answer from the book, they didn't really 'get to know' the child and find out the underlying problems. She needs to really get to know you and you her. You need a connection that is deep and permanent. JMTC. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TxMama Posted April 18, 2009 Share Posted April 18, 2009 :grouphug: I agree with the other posters that she should not be allowed to go to the park and pay the $40. Dad made a punishment and you really should back him up even if you do not agree with him. Next you and dh need to get together and decide how you are going to deal with these situations in the future. BUT always back up your spouse in front of the children even if you think your spouse is wrong! THEN have a family meeting and lay down your expectations for the family. You stated she is... "extremely disrespectful toward me and her father. When she is corrected, when she gets angry or upset about something, thinks that we have been unfair to her, etc., she will often lash out, call us names, call us unfair, liars, accuse us of hating her or loving her siblings more, etc. I realize that much of this is normal adolescent "hormonal" outbursts. We ignore most of it." It's OK for her to be angry. It is not OK for her lash out, call names, call her parents liars. Angry is normal .....lashing out is not. Ignoring is only going to escalate this problem. You stated... "back and forth the argument goes and she is warned that she needs to stop, close her mouth and cool down in her room before she says or does something she will regreat. Dh tells her to go back to her room and dd proceeds to walk by dh and punch him in the back as hard as she can. Dh reacts by yelling" 12 yo is old enough to understand that it is unacceptable to hit other people. She needs to learn to accept her punishment for hitting the younger brother.....timeout. She needs to learn to accept her punishment for hitting dad.....which is not going to the park with her friend. She is not allowed to hit anyone else in the family. But no one in the family is allowed to hit her. The reality is that if she were to hit any other 6yo or grown man she would be charged with assault! In this situation I would escort the child to her room and state that when she calmed down we could discuss the situation. I would not engage in an argument. I do understand how difficult it is to not yell back when your 12 yo child is yelling at you! Just don't do it. Let her calm down , then discuss the situation. The situation was she hit a 6 yo and that is unacceptable! Whatever punishment that you decided to give your 6 yo for their part in the situation does not concern her behavior or the consequences of her actions. I never try to explain another child's punishment or consequences to other children in the family. You said.. "We ignore most of it." I would do the exact opposite! If she calmly told me that she is feeling "unloved, angry, left out, whatever" I would sit down and talk to her. If not at that moment then make an appointment. FInd out why she feels the way she does then decide how to proceed. The solution maybe that she just has to deal with it. Such is life at times. If she yells, call names, lashes out, acts disrespectful. I would send her to her room. Those types of behaviors are unacceptable. Remember angry ok and Lashing out is not! When she calms down THEN talk to her. Do not engage in a conflict with her. I've BTDT with my oldest. By very best advice it to deal with it today. :grouphug: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greta Posted April 18, 2009 Share Posted April 18, 2009 (edited) Now, in my mind, taking away her trip to Hershey Park won't teach her anything. Similar consequences in the past have not worked either. . . . I'm leaning toward grace-based parenting b/c it just feels "right" in my spirit. Punitive parenting has not worked. So, if you do GBP (or GBD...grace based discipline), what would you do in this situation? How would you respond? Thanks for any suggestions or advice. Well, I'm going to post what is apparently the unpopular opinion and say that since you have noticed that a punitive approach isn't working, I think you should try something altogether different. The problem with punitive parenting (IMO) is that it focuses entirely upon behaviors, and not underlying emotions and motivations. Yes, it was wrong of your daughter to hit your husband, absolutely no question. But by punishing her for that behavior, are you really doing anything that is addressing the underlying cause of that behavior? You may stop the actual behavior, but will you really be correcting the problem at its core? Or will this same problem simply resurface in a new way? I don't know your daughter or your family dynamic well enough to hazard a guess about what is going on, but it just seems to me that your daughter has some emotional need that is not being met. And rather than punishing her for expressing her frustration in an unhealthy way, I think the focus should be on helping her to find a healthy way to deal with her emotions and problems. That way, you have taught her a skill for life, not simply changed her behavior for a day. I'm not familiar with the term Grace Based Parenting (is that a book?), but I would recommend Alfie Kohn's Unconditional Parenting if you're interested in learning why punitive parenting may not be the best choice, and what you can do instead. I'm sorry I can't give you a specific recommendation of what to do in this situation. Oh how I wish parenting were that easy! But there are no magic formulas. It is hard work to build and nurture a healthy relationship with our kids. But if you have that foundation, I think that you and your daughter can face any problem together. Let her know that she is loved and safe, and she will seek out your guidance and help when she needs it. Hugs, Greta Edited April 18, 2009 by GretaLynne Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue G in PA Posted April 18, 2009 Author Share Posted April 18, 2009 Thanks for all the thoughtful responses. Some background: Dd is in counseling for her anger issues and some other issues that I've been conerned about. She sees the same counselor that I do b/c I trust this woman 100% and she is very good at her job. As to this particular situation, I did back up dh in front of our dd and we later discussed the issue in private. He agreed that taking away the trip might be too "hasty" and also agreed that we need to pray about a more "fitting" consequence. What that is...I don't know right now. What I do not need is my relationship with my dd further injured. It is already on shaky ground. Dd is completely respectful, self-controlled, sweet, helpful, etc. when with other people. We are always told what a wonderful girl she is. It's her behavior at home that disgusts me. I realize that my own problems (depression, anger, etc.) have been extremely detrimental. Restoring and rebuilding relationships will take time. Again, thanks for all the responses. I don't feel like we did the wrong thing in letting her go, but I don't really feel like it was right either. Make sense? I'm just so frustrated. I suppose I will bring this up to her counselor on Monday. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
calandalsmom Posted April 18, 2009 Share Posted April 18, 2009 Taking the trip away won't do anything good for the relationship or the behavior. its a futile punishing strategy and the only thing it will do in the caser of an angry child is make her more angry. Have you read The Explosive Child? This is a plan B child and you can't use a plan A parenting approach. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nakia Posted April 18, 2009 Share Posted April 18, 2009 Sue, I am so sorry. My girls are still young, so I don't have any answers, but I wanted to let you know I will pray for you, your DH, and your dd. :grouphug::grouphug::grouphug: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue G in PA Posted April 18, 2009 Author Share Posted April 18, 2009 Have not read the Explosive Child. In a nutshell...what is the Plan A vs. Plan B child? We are the kind of parents who discipline each child according to what works best for him/her. We have a lot of strong willed children...dd12 being one of them, as you can see. Our punitive parenting in the beginning only caused more rifts in our relationships and obviously did not change the behavior. This is why I just felt the need to move toward a more grace-based parenting approach...one that was more in line with how God parents us. He doesn't sit up there with some wand ready to zap us whenever we lose control or screw up. He parents with grace. Sure, there are natural consequences to suffer (run up credit card bills and get into enormous debt...suffer the consequences of having to pay it back, eat all the junk food you want and you are overweight and suffer a malady of other illnesses, don't wash your clothes, you don't have clean clothes to wear, etc.). I lose self-control at times (more than I care to share) and God doesn't zap me with a wand and "punish me". I'm just having a hard time figuring out some natural consequences or even logical consequences. Dh is in full agreement with me, has spoken to dd and she did apologize, but both dh and I agree there should be some sort of consequence other than taking away the trip. I'm leaning more toward some chore or something that would "make it up to her father". Serving him in some way that would bless him and make up for her hurting him. I just don't know... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
calandalsmom Posted April 18, 2009 Share Posted April 18, 2009 I want to add something. An angry child can't be taught to appreciate anything through punishment. Everything you do to this child will make her angrier and more resentful. The hard thing is that people want you to punish your kid the same way they'd punish the regular old normal run of the mill happy go lucky kid. (He probably wouldn't learn much either from a missed playdate, but he'd comply because he is already compliant.) The hardest thing in parenting a kid who is different than the average kid (beahvior wise) is having parents of average children think you are crazy when you are forced to make choices they do not understand. And for that reason Id be very careful whom you seek advice from in the future. You may be seen as lenient or too relaxed and people will say this has caused the problems you have with your kid. This is difficult. I have a difficult child who does not fit the mold and it took me about 10 years to realise my friends had no idea what they were talking about when they tried to give me helpful advice like more time out, fewer privelegs, isolation and so on. In order to teach your child you will have to be more flexible than the average parent while keeping your sanity, as well. its a fun ride. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JenniferB Posted April 18, 2009 Share Posted April 18, 2009 Hey Sue, I don't have a 12 yo yet, and I don't know the specific label "Grace Based Discipline", but I wanted to chime in anyway. Take this as a grain of salt if you want because I may not know anything from Adam. I noticed that you said you "ignore" most of your 12 yo's sassy attitudes and the more minor infractions of outbursts. Maybe you should start there and address the bitterness in her heart when it's displayed in the minor ways. Dont' ignore them, but start addressing them one by one. Try to find out what feelings have crept into her heart to make her speak to you and dh the way she does, and listen to her complaints with an open heart. Maybe when she's not SO angry she can explain how she feels, and you can try to understand her. If you can understand where she's coming from you might be able to make some changes to your ways, your dh's ways or your other children's ways to accomodate her. If you can accomodate some of her complaints, then you will gain some trust, and maybe you can get her to curb some of her behavior. If she has legitimate issues with the way she's being treated, that would be a good place to start. If her complaints are not rational, can you reason with her? I suggest to pay more attention to the little things and don't ignore them. About the Park thing, I think your dh made the right call. It did suddenly change her heart when the consequence was given - she suddenly realized the error of her ways. It served it's purpose right there. Now you and dh can talk to her rationally and make a plan for future relations between you all. About the friends who paid, maybe your daughter could do some chores to pay them back or something? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
calandalsmom Posted April 18, 2009 Share Posted April 18, 2009 plan A is "do what I tell you because I said so!" plan B has two applications: emergency plan B is for use in a situation like the one you described and it relies on echoing back what your child says and trying to reach an understanding through problem solving. Its not any fun to do in an emergency. Plan B the regular way is way easier- it relies on you being able to talk with your child about a particular area of difficulty. You try to build a concensus with your child and hope that they can apply it next time the issue comes up. there is also a plan c, which is essentially drop what ever it is that you are trying to get accomplished (and come back to it later when people are calm.) The book is excellent and I really recommend it. The first message given is that children do as well as they can. in otherwords, your kid isnt out to embarrass you when he throws a fit at the grocery in front of God and everyone and you are thinking "this kid is 12, not 2, why is he throwing a fit????" he is doing the best he can to solve his problem. Its just that you have to teach and reinforce a better way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
calandalsmom Posted April 18, 2009 Share Posted April 18, 2009 About the Park thing, I think your dh made the right call. It did suddenly change her heart when the consequence was given - she suddenly realized the error of her ways. It served it's purpose right there. Now you and dh can talk to her rationally and make a plan for future relations between you all. About the friends who paid, maybe your daughter could do some chores to pay them back or something? Do you think it did? Maybe she was just suddenly having an "OH POOP now what can I do to get the park back??" moment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emmy Posted April 18, 2009 Share Posted April 18, 2009 This approach worked for us....do you think it might work with your kiddos? Thanks Ria - this is really helpful. We've always told the kids they can't argue with us and that the appropriate responses were "yes mom" or a respectful question. It's not been an issue until recently my oldest is challenging it by continuing to argue even when we remind him it's not acceptable and I've been a bit stumped as to where to go on it because I will say - ok, no more arguingo or XYZ and he will then start arguing about THAT (lol). I will talk to the kids about a consequence for continued arguing and try that. Thank you! And thank you Sue for my minor thread hijack, appreciate the air time. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PineFarmMom Posted April 18, 2009 Share Posted April 18, 2009 We are always told what a wonderful girl she is. It's her behavior at home that disgusts me. I realize that my own problems (depression, anger, etc.) See, I would have a problem with that. That she will put on another face for outsiders would worry me some. I know and have known other families that have said that same thing...outsiders think their child is so wonderful, etc., while the child is just abusive at home. If she can keep her cool and behave in a proper way outside of your home, she should be able to do the same at home. I have anger problems, so I'm not speaking from an out-there place. Scripture, prayer, repentance to God and others has been the only thing that has saved me. That is good that you have her in counseling. Getting a handle on it now is key. Honestly, I have read and applied a few things from the book Grace-Based Parenting. While I agree with some of the ideas, there was much I had to toss out the window because it wound up lacking some of the discipline guidance I felt my children needed....that God wanted me to be giving them. Now, I will note to you that it has been 6 years since I read it, and I needed more grace in my parenting at that time, but I do remember feeling that I had some serious issues with some of the ideas, and I've never picked it back up. I assume you are talking about ideas from that book? I have not read this book yet, but it is by Tedd Tripp's (Shepherding a Child's Heart) brother. It is called "Age of Opportunity." He is a Christian author, and it is specifically for the teen years. I have a dear mother friend that I would truly consider someone I look up to as a parent. She said the book was really good and it's on my to-purchase book. Teresa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greta Posted April 18, 2009 Share Posted April 18, 2009 I'm leaning more toward some chore or something that would "make it up to her father". Serving him in some way that would bless him and make up for her hurting him. I just don't know... I think that sounds a lot more productive than taking away her trip. In fact, maybe you should assign HER the task of coming up with a way to make it up to her dad. Put the ball in her court. I suspect you might be pleasantly surprised by what she can come up with to let her father know how much she loves and appreciates him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PineFarmMom Posted April 18, 2009 Share Posted April 18, 2009 (edited) I will say that I agree with your husband's initial response of taking the trip away. I don't think punching any member of the family would be an action that should be rewarded. Teresa Edited April 18, 2009 by Texas T Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JenniferB Posted April 18, 2009 Share Posted April 18, 2009 Do you think it did? Maybe she was just suddenly having an "OH POOP now what can I do to get the park back??" moment. Yeah, maybe you're right. It sounded from Sue's description of her daughter's words though that she was very sorry even though she knew she would still receive the consequence. ?? Maybe I read that wrong? Of course I shouldn't claim to know her heart, maybe that's the point you are making - good point. I definately do not know her heart. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greta Posted April 18, 2009 Share Posted April 18, 2009 See, I would have a problem with that. That she will put on another face for outsiders would worry me some. That's interesting, because I was thinking almost the opposite! To me, the fact that she is acting out only at home and not rebelling against everyone and everything is a very good sign. I think it shows she really wants to get along with people and interact in positive ways. But she's hurting and not knowing what else to do, lashing out at those two people who she wants to help her. But obviously this is just a guess on my part since I do not know her. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PineFarmMom Posted April 18, 2009 Share Posted April 18, 2009 That's interesting, because I was thinking almost the opposite! To me, the fact that she is acting out only at home and not rebelling against everyone and everything is a very good sign. I think it shows she really wants to get along with people and interact in positive ways. But she's hurting and not knowing what else to do, lashing out at those two people who she wants to help her. But obviously this is just a guess on my part since I do not know her. No. I think you have a good point too. I hadn't thought of it that way. I don't know here either, so I could be off in my thinking on the subject. Teresa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JenniferB Posted April 18, 2009 Share Posted April 18, 2009 Thanks Ria - this is really helpful. We've always told the kids they can't argue with us and that the appropriate responses were "yes mom" or a respectful question. It's not been an issue until recently my oldest is challenging it by continuing to argue even when we remind him it's not acceptable and I've been a bit stumped as to where to go on it because I will say - ok, no more arguingo or XYZ and he will then start arguing about THAT (lol). I will talk to the kids about a consequence for continued arguing and try that. Thank you! And thank you Sue for my minor thread hijack, appreciate the air time. :) Emmy, maybe his logic stage brain is coming into play here. Of course there are some situations when a logic stage child has to say a simple "yes mom" or "yes dad", but there are many times when they might need to exercise and express their thoughts a bit. Maybe you can find out how to discern the difference and give him some opportunities for thoughtful idea exchange. Practice makes perfect. :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ria Posted April 18, 2009 Share Posted April 18, 2009 I think that sounds a lot more productive than taking away her trip. In fact, maybe you should assign HER the task of coming up with a way to make it up to her dad. Put the ball in her court. I suspect you might be pleasantly surprised by what she can come up with to let her father know how much she loves and appreciates him. I suspect that rather than feeling love and appreciation for her father, she's going to feel satisfaction knowing that she's able to get away with just about anything with no repercussions. The behavior will certainly continue.... Ria Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aggie Posted April 18, 2009 Share Posted April 18, 2009 I suspect that rather than feeling love and appreciation for her father, she's going to feel satisfaction knowing that she's able to get away with just about anything with no repercussions. The behavior will certainly continue.... Ria I agree. And it's a *choice* to lash out. She can and does control herself around other people, so it seems she should be able to around her family. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TraceyS/FL Posted April 18, 2009 Share Posted April 18, 2009 Sue - i'm just starting this book, HOld On To Your Kids: Why Parents Need to Matter More than Peers, but you might find it helpful. I haven't gotten to the "fixes" part at the end, but he does state, there is no "hormonal stage" that we as parents just need to maintain/return to being the #1 in our children's lives. :grouphug: I hope you get it all sorted out.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TxMama Posted April 18, 2009 Share Posted April 18, 2009 I suspect that rather than feeling love and appreciation for her father, she's going to feel satisfaction knowing that she's able to get away with just about anything with no repercussions. The behavior will certainly continue.... Ria :iagree: At least it was the case in our home while dealing with my oldest. Once a consequenced was dished out even if we later between the parents decided that perhaps it was too harsh it stood. Conversations between parents helped us to gradually learn to keep our mouths shut in the "heat of battle." :lol: BUT if we said "grounded for a month" then he was grounded for a month which was no picnic for us either. He learned not to push us too far because we ALWAYS backed each other up and the punishment ALWAYS stood. We can all laugh about it now that he is 19. But he respects us and we can have a civil conversation without yelling which we didn't think was possible at 12. This did not happen until we made the decision to never change a consequence. Trust me that there are still plenty of mindfields around here if this behavior hadn't been modified ages ago. Best of luck, mama! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catwoman Posted April 18, 2009 Share Posted April 18, 2009 (edited) Dh is in full agreement with me, has spoken to dd and she did apologize, but both dh and I agree there should be some sort of consequence other than taking away the trip. I'm leaning more toward some chore or something that would "make it up to her father". Serving him in some way that would bless him and make up for her hurting him. I just don't know... Well, I know I'm in the minority here, but I'm glad you didn't take away the trip. I don't think it would have solved anything, and you also would have been punishing your dd's friend, who (I'm sure) is looking forward to a great day with your dd. I wish I knew what to suggest as a reasonable consequence for your dd's actions. Honestly, I feel badly for your dh, as I'm sure that about 30 seconds after he punished your dd, he probably regretted it and wished he'd managed to control his quick (and understandable at that moment!) response to your dd's actions. Now, both you and your dh are in a tough position, because it's obvious that your dd can't be permitted to raise her hand to a parent, but it also seems that the solution should be somehow related to demonstrating respect for her dad. I keep coming back to the idea that maybe your dd and her dad could do something special together that's "work," but can still be a fun, bonding time for them. I just wish I had the slightest clue as to what that might be. It's difficult because you don't want to seem "too soft," yet punitive punishments often seem to backfire into creating more aggression. Good luck, and I hope you'll let us know what you decide to do. Cat Edited to add: Under most circumstances, I would have let the punishment stand, but I thought that, in this case, taking away the trip was excessive. Your dh really needs to think before he speaks, because it's so easy (for all of us) to make threats that we will regret 10 minutes later, and backing down on a punishment is not usually a good example to set. Edited April 18, 2009 by Catwoman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michelle in AL Posted April 18, 2009 Share Posted April 18, 2009 Sue, I think I can identify with you. You mentioned some of this may be your fault because of your own anger and depression. I find I am MUCH more complacent with my kinds over things I feel guilty for. I know deep down inside that this doesn't help them (allowing them to do things because of my guilt). As an outsider looking in, I would say the punishment is appropriate and having her pay back the $40 would make a lasting impact. I would have her stay home with you for a certain period of time (2wks-a month) to allow time to decompress, relax and most of all to enjoy each other. Do something at least once a week that is fun (this could be with your husband too). Try your best to model respectful behavior and calmly correct her when she's not. I would tell her this was the plan, that it was made to help her and to help heal your relationship. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greta Posted April 18, 2009 Share Posted April 18, 2009 I suspect that rather than feeling love and appreciation for her father, she's going to feel satisfaction knowing that she's able to get away with just about anything with no repercussions. The behavior will certainly continue.... Ria I wasn't advocating "no repercussions". I was advocating giving her the responsibility of figuring out how to make this up to her father. That is a real-life skill that we all need: making amends when we hurt someone. It is a useful, constructive, teaching repercussion that flows naturally from the situation. Secondly, I think that doing something nice for her father has the potential to start the process of healing a hurting relationship. She did something wrong to him. Now, she does something to make up for it. Through that action, this angry, hurting child will get to experience the love and forgiveness of a parent. Punishment addresses behavior, which is on the surface. I believe parents need to go deeper, and address the underlying emotions and the relationship. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ria Posted April 18, 2009 Share Posted April 18, 2009 I wasn't advocating "no repercussions". I was advocating giving her the responsibility of figuring out how to make this up to her father. That is a real-life skill that we all need: making amends when we hurt someone. It is a useful, constructive, teaching repercussion that flows naturally from the situation. Secondly, I think that doing something nice for her father has the potential to start the process of healing a hurting relationship. She did something wrong to him. Now, she does something to make up for it. Through that action, this angry, hurting child will get to experience the love and forgiveness of a parent. Punishment addresses behavior, which is on the surface. I believe parents need to go deeper, and address the underlying emotions and the relationship. I agree with everything you've said, but I would draw the line at letting her go to the amusement park. Her father gave her that punishment, and I think it should stick. Consequences exist for poor choices. In addition, your advice is excellent. In real life, as adults, there are consequences for our behavior. If I was to strike a co-worker, for example, I'd lose my job. If I was to yell at my boss or at a customer, I'd be written up, could be demoted, etc. Those are consequences of poor choices. This child struck her father, and in so doing, she lost her trip. Is that not fair in your eyes? We aren't talking about a 4-year old...we are talking about a 12-year old. I have one, and they aren't babies...they can think, reason, and make choices. I've had five 12-year olds prior to him. In no case would the consequence for hitting a parent have been left to the child's discretion. Ria Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greta Posted April 18, 2009 Share Posted April 18, 2009 (edited) I agree with everything you've said, but I would draw the line at letting her go to the amusement park. Her father gave her that punishment, and I think it should stick. Consequences exist for poor choices. In addition, your advice is excellent. That was very kind of you. And I do, definitely, see your point about the father sticking with what he had told her. I really endeavor to do that in my parenting. But there are also times when parents make mistakes, and I don't think our children are best served if we pretend otherwise. Sometimes an "I was wrong and I am sorry" is entirely needed, even if it's in the shocking situation of coming out of a parent's mouth to the child instead of the other way around! :D Whether or not this situation was one of those times, I honestly cannot judge, I just don't know enough. That's up to Sue and her husband. This child struck her father, and in so doing, she lost her trip. Is that not fair in your eyes? Hitting is a very serious concern to me. I'm in no way trying to make light of what she did. Hitting is absolutely not tolerated in my home, regardless of who is doing the hitting and who is receiving it. It's simply not allowed. Is it fair for her to lose her trip? Truth is: I don't know. I certainly don't mean to come across like some know-it-all who has the magic ticket to perfect parenting. Far from it! I definitely do NOT have all the answers. But I do think the questions are worth asking. In my own parenting, focusing on my daughter's behavior rather than her feelings and motivations is a mistake that I have made to the detriment of our relationship and her emotional well-being. So I am simply suggesting, based on my experiences receiving punitive parenting as a teen, and my limited experiences with my own daughter, that perhaps punishment is not what is going to best suit this particular girl's emotional needs in this particular situation. The OP said that she feels punitive parenting isn't working here and she wants to find another way. I was simply trying to encourage her journey on that path, because the changes I have made in my parenting recently have already benefited me and my dd tremendously. (Editing because I realized that something I said came out in a way I did NOT intend. Sorry!) Edited April 18, 2009 by GretaLynne Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PineFarmMom Posted April 18, 2009 Share Posted April 18, 2009 I suspect that rather than feeling love and appreciation for her father, she's going to feel satisfaction knowing that she's able to get away with just about anything with no repercussions. The behavior will certainly continue.... Ria Yeah. I think that was my gut. I just didn't know how to say it. I remember being manipulative as a kid...this was the type of thing that helped me be manipulative. My dad, in particular, would punish me and then feel guilty and withdraw the punishment...I felt somehow I had won. Teresa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Year Round Mom Posted April 18, 2009 Share Posted April 18, 2009 I didn't read all the posts, only about half, so someone might have already suggested this. I have never heard of GBP, either. But I was thinking maybe you could have a heart-to-heart with her after everyone is calmed down and if you see a genuine repentant attitude in her, if you feel she is speaking truth about how sorry she says she is, etc., then you could surprise her with the trip to Hershey Park (grace!). However, if you feel that she's just faking it or is not really sorry, but hardened, then let the decision stand: no park. You know her best as her parents, and if you see that she is genuinely sorry and burdened with her guilt, then you might let her go to the park, after explaining this as an example of grace. Or you might choose not to let her go unless she expresses a desire to work with you and her counselor to change. You decide what you hope to see in her before you talk with her. Oh, and don't tell her you're considering changing your minds, of course, because obviously, she'd play it up to get to go! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greta Posted April 18, 2009 Share Posted April 18, 2009 Just in case you or anyone is curious about the Alfie Kohn book that I mentioned, you can view three sample snippets of his DVD (based on the book) at his website: http://www.alfiekohn.org/index.html#null In the middle near the bottom, just click on the orange DVD cover below the words "DVD on Parenting". A new window will open, and then select whether you want to use Media Player or Quicktime (far right) to view the clips. They're short, but very interesting! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chiguirre Posted April 18, 2009 Share Posted April 18, 2009 I've been dealing with aggression issues with my autistic 9yo. He's a pro at sneaking up on me when he's angry and punching me full force between the shoulder blades. It sucks! It hurts, it knocks you off balance and if you're not braced you can fall. Now that you know this child is capable of that level of violence, you need to have a plan for the next time (which I sincerely hope never comes). Learn how to restrain her without hurting her. This takes a fair amount of strength and some practice if you have to do it yourself. It's a lot easier with 2 adults as a team. Try to get someone professional to teach you if you can. Perhaps your consellor can refer you? I think you need to sit your dd down and explain what would happen if she hurt someone in your family badly enough that you had to take them to an emergency room. You would have to report her or you would probably be accused of child or spousal abuse because the doctors will have to make a report of a suspicious injury. She'd probably have to be admitted for observation in a juvenile mental facility (if you have the good fortune to find an available bed). If she injures anyone outside the family, you will almost certainly have to deal with the juvenile justice system given her age. I'm not trying to scare you (nor should you use this as a "scare tactic" with her, it's just the cold, hard reality of not controlling your aggression as you get older, no matter what other circumstances you face in your life. I've had to explain to my ds that he will have to be institutionalized if he injures one of us. This is about the most unpleasant job a parent can have, but it is necessary. You'll be in my thoughts! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue G in PA Posted April 19, 2009 Author Share Posted April 19, 2009 A few thoughts after reading the last dozen posts: There are times when my dd apologizes out of "obligation" or hope that a punishment will not be carried out. Last night, her apology was sincere. She KNEW she screwed up (lost control). She wasn't happy about the initial consequence (losing the trip) but was ready to suffer it AND apologize as well. My problem with losing the trip was that the trip was never tied to behavior in that we never said "you can go only if you never misbehave or make a mistake from now until then". Dh reacted as anyone who had just been surprisingly punched would have...gut reaction, KWIM? As I said, we have used punishment like this before (taking away privileges, having her miss play dates or sports games, etc.) but to no avail. The behavior continues. It's the heart issue that I am concerned about. As the Scripture says, "for out of the overflow of the heart, the mouth speaks" (paraphrase). Same w/ behaviors. What is it that she is holding in her heart that makes her behave like this? This is the reason we took her to counseling to begin with. She is going back to ps next year, b/c she has said that much of her sadness is from her lack of friends/peers. Dd is the oldest of 7, with 4 brothers right after her, then a 3yo sister and a 1yo brother. Anyway, I am so encouraged by the discussion so far...thanks for the words of wisdom. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ria Posted April 19, 2009 Share Posted April 19, 2009 You know, Sue, ps might not be a bad choice for her...we've been in a similar situation. Our 3rd child (sort of our 2nd, actually, since he's the first singleton after our twins) became more difficult from age 10 on. By 14 he was really not happy here...lots of griping, complaining, lots of time spent in his room, you name it, we tried it. He had asked to go to school for years, and last year we finally had to put the kids in school when I went back to work. Well, guess what? He's a totally different kid. Really. The anger/complaining has all but ceased. He's more open. He's working hard in school, and cares about his grades. He's nice to his brothers. In short, I wish I'd listened to him a lot earlier...it might have been better for all of us. It's hard to have a child who's just not happy. It's hard to try to figure out how to help. I just wanted to let you know that by listening to her and letting her go to ps, you might be very surprised and pleased with the results. I love homeschooling, but I've seen firsthand that it serves some kids much better than others. I wish that wasn't the case, but at least here, with that one child, it was. :grouphug: Ria Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marylou Posted April 19, 2009 Share Posted April 19, 2009 Sue, I'm so sorry you had to experience this heart ache. Maybe tomorrow when she should have been at the park with friends she can spend every moment of that time with your husband? Playing a game (just the two of them), taking a walk, talking, going for a ride, etc. It will show her that she is so important to him. He could use that time to instruct her yet again about how a young lady should behave. He can reinforce the fact that her emotional maturity and self-control are worth much more than a $40 park ticket. Please post again later. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigMamaBird Posted April 19, 2009 Share Posted April 19, 2009 Honestly, our rules are that if you are NOT able to control your behavior and treat people respectfully AT HOME, then you have NO business going out into the world to mistreat other people. In order to have the 'privilege' of such trips and outside classes, park days, etc., then my kids have to be well behaved at home. Not to thread hijack, but after the evening we had around here with our almost 4 y/o, this was something I really needed to hear. Thank you secular_mom Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sweetpeach Posted April 19, 2009 Share Posted April 19, 2009 After reading this entire thread and having some driving time to think about it . . . I'd consider letting my 12 year old enjoy her afternoon out after she produced a thoughtfully written "essay" about this situation. (I've made my oldest son work through hard behaviour problems by having him watch himself and write about the why of his feelings and how his behaviour reflected his feelings.) In order to direct this writing project, I'd ask her the following questions: Start from the beginning that you could feel your emotions gathering momentum . . . could you feel yourself losing control? Close your eyes and watch yourself and see if you can pinpoint the start of losing control. What triggered you into spiralling completely out of control and resulted with hitting? Explain that having space between action and reaction is always a great thing. If this is a concept your 12 year old understands, ask her to think carefully and write about how she could control her immediate negative reaction to a situation and figure out positive ways to manage her reaction time and response. I'd have her outline three positive ways to build some space into the action/reaction time . . . ie: leave the room, breathe deeply, consider if this moment is a hill to die on, take a self-proclaimed 5 minute time out, silence before speaking . . . the goal being to work on self-discipline during stressful moments. Watching yourself is hard work . . . but having to slow down and really think it through and then put those feelings into words might have a lasting impact. I think the crux of GBP is helping our children internally motivate themselves to make the right choices in any given moment . . . keeping her from the outing won't necessarily help her connect "no self-control means no picnic." It's not really a natural consequence as much as a "punishment" . . . I think punishing is mostly an exercise in futility. Warmly, Tricia Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coffeefreak Posted April 19, 2009 Share Posted April 19, 2009 I would pay her friend's family the $40, not let her go, and take the money out of her allowance/account/make her work it off. :iagree: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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