Alana in Canada Posted February 12, 2009 Share Posted February 12, 2009 Thread here: http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?t=81826 I am a bit surprised at the vehemence which most of you have shown about this. "No, never." "Can't imagine." "Maybe if I were a danger to them" etcetera. What if this were a man? Men seem to leave their children all the time for much less reasons. Is this a true double standard--or are there "stronger reasons" for a mother to stay than a father? What do you think? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carol in Cal. Posted February 12, 2009 Share Posted February 12, 2009 We had to picture ourselves doing that. If you ask us about dads, we have to picture someone ELSE doing that. It's a really different question, in my view. Before I had a child of my own, I would have said that the two cases were completely comparable. And to a very large extent, that is true. However, maternal instinct kicked in VERY hard for me when I had a child, and I would say that my priorities and, really, the basis of my personality, pretty much shifted forever. So I would have to say, now, that it is impossible for me to imagine doing such a thing, but that if a man did it, I wouldn't excuse him, exactly, but it's not as inconceivable. Because he doesn't have those maternal instincts going into the mix. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyJoy Posted February 12, 2009 Share Posted February 12, 2009 Well, since the people responding are mothers, and the question was whether they could see THEMSELVES leaving their children, I think your question is kind of tangential. They seemed to be vehement that they would never leave their children, not that they couldn't imagine it happening--since several people pointed out they had seen it happen. I do think it is more shocking when a woman leaves her kids for several reasons. 1. She bore them from her own body. 2. Presumably she bonded with them from birth--probably more intensely than dad. 3. Mothers tend to be fiercely protective of their kids. 4. Mothers tend to be nurturers. Anecdotally, I've known 2 women who've left their kids. Both women were friends and decided they'd had enough of their responsibilities, found new men at a bar, and skipped out! One left 5 kids ages 3-15 behind and the other left a 4 year old and 1 year old. In both cases, the oldest was from a previous marriage. I'm sure it has happened, but I have never known a man who walked out in such a dramatic fashion. Sure, I've known men who divorced, but it wasn't them running out--it was a long-time-coming divorce and they still wanted to keep the kids. I've never known a man who announced that his wife could just keep the kids as these women have done. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alana in Canada Posted February 12, 2009 Author Share Posted February 12, 2009 Yes, you are both quite right. I was forgetting that this was asking us, ourselves, whether we would leave our children. As I was reading the responses, though, I started to wonder about fathers, as indeed, my parents split--and it was my Dad who left. He was almost completely absent, but not entirely so. He was never treated as "a bad guy" by anyone--even though he was an inadequate and somewhat irresponsible parent. So, yes, point taken, somewhat tangetical: but that is why I started a new thread. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swellmomma Posted February 12, 2009 Share Posted February 12, 2009 I can't say why men do it, but my ex husband seemed to have no trouble abandoning the kids. I was the one that asked for a divorce, but he virtually cut off all contact with them right away. It has only been 1 year since he started paying cs and sending them birthday gifts, he still doesn't talk to them or see them and doesn't have any plans to do so. It was suprising to me how many guys were willing to be my donors when I was looking to have the other 2. I don't know if it is biological or what that women are less likely to walk away from their kids, but I know I couldn't do what my ex or the donors did and just walk away from my children. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plucky Posted February 12, 2009 Share Posted February 12, 2009 Dads shouldn't leave either. My dad was an absent parent. It took me a long time to come to grips with it. My own dh would never leave his children. Ever. He's almost as hands on a parent as I am, but he has to travel and earn a living. I know what you mean though. I grew up knowing plenty of friends & my cousins whose dads never came around. I can't understand how a man can do that. It's probably biology and a bad family history. Some people are just broken and can't go the distance for their kids. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cathmom Posted February 12, 2009 Share Posted February 12, 2009 In some cases the dad is pushed out of the children's lives by the mom after a divorce or breakup. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plucky Posted February 12, 2009 Share Posted February 12, 2009 (edited) True. But most of the ones (absent fathers) I've seen didn't have that element. Edited February 12, 2009 by True Blue Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rosie_0801 Posted February 12, 2009 Share Posted February 12, 2009 I think the biggest difference is that women know the role they play in their children's lives, whereas men often don't. In way too many families, the father/child relationship is mediated by the mother/wife so as soon as the marriage breaks down and she no longer wants to play that role, there's no one left who knows how to do it. My hubby wants to be an active father and enjoys it, but still slips into the habit of letting me organise it for him. I'm *very* careful not to let that keep up for long. Rosie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alana in Canada Posted February 12, 2009 Author Share Posted February 12, 2009 oooh, Rosie, good point. I have often "caught" myself "advising" dh how to handle his relationship with his own children! If we were to separate, he really wouldn't have much of a clue. Women do tend to define themselves by their relationships (as does our society) but there isn't the same tendency for men--nor does our society judge them by how he does or does not manage them. Perhaps that will change: but what else would have to change? Do we really want the same conflicts and anquish about being a working vs stay-at-home Mom for Dads too? I wonder what the Dads on this site think? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jean in Newcastle Posted February 12, 2009 Share Posted February 12, 2009 I think (I hope, anyways) that if you asked each of the dads connected to the hive - not just Spy Car and Plaid Dad et al. but each of our husbands too - that you would get similar "no way" answers. I know that my dh would definitely never willingly leave our dc. But just like for the women who leave - men do leave for selfish reasons. And they can leave because of mental illness or depression. And of course there are the men who leave to try and find work and to send money back home etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alana in Canada Posted February 12, 2009 Author Share Posted February 12, 2009 men do leave for selfish reasons. I'm willing to let the thread die, honest: it's just that I don't think there'd be the same outrage expressed. I think that was all I was trying to say. :tongue_smilie: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
melissel Posted February 12, 2009 Share Posted February 12, 2009 I'm willing to let the thread die, honest: it's just that I don't think there'd be the same outrage expressed. I think that was all I was trying to say. :tongue_smilie: Well, speaking for myself, I'd be just as outraged--I'm outraged when anyone chooses to walk away from their children--but I'd be less shocked, I guess. I do think it's often easier for fathers to walk away for so many of the reasons expressed above. In general, I think most of the outrage in that thread was because the posters were filtering through their own sense of, "You'd have to drag me away from my children kicking and screaming." When you feel that strongly as a mother, it's hard to comprehend another mother doing it so easily. Also, like some posters in that thread pointed out, I tend to think that when a mom decides to walk away from her kids like that, there's something much bigger going on than just an exciting new romance, YK? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heather in Neverland Posted February 12, 2009 Share Posted February 12, 2009 My dh feels just as strongly as I do about not EVER leaving our children. My father OTOH....I haven't seen or spoken to him in over 10 years and it seems that he couldn't care less. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TraceyS/FL Posted February 12, 2009 Share Posted February 12, 2009 I think the biggest difference is that women know the role they play in their children's lives, whereas men often don't. In way too many families, the father/child relationship is mediated by the mother/wife so as soon as the marriage breaks down and she no longer wants to play that role, there's no one left who knows how to do it. My hubby wants to be an active father and enjoys it, but still slips into the habit of letting me organise it for him. I'm *very* careful not to let that keep up for long. :iagree: I'm done forcing him to be involved. If he can't hear the 4.5yo begging him to "stay home all day with us" on a Saturday, well, not my problem. I've made sure that he has had access to them over the last month. That he chooses to not be here isn't my problem - in fact it gives me more to track on my calendar for custody. My parents actually think he will leave the state soon/after the divorce. I'd like to think he'd stay because of the kids, but he's also needs some meds and isn't "right"..... so who knows. But, the stress of trying to involve him in our lives over the last 5 years has been hard on me. Like Rosie said, i'm just done..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laura Corin Posted February 12, 2009 Share Posted February 12, 2009 Thread here: http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?t=81826 I am a bit surprised at the vehemence which most of you have shown about this. "No, never." "Can't imagine." "Maybe if I were a danger to them" etcetera. What if this were a man? Laura Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
katemary63 Posted February 12, 2009 Share Posted February 12, 2009 I'm willing to let the thread die, honest: it's just that I don't think there'd be the same outrage expressed. I think that was all I was trying to say. :tongue_smilie: You are absolutely right. I do think it is abhorrent for a man to leave his children. But...when I think about it, I am much more "offended" in my gut when a woman does it. Maybe it's because I relate to her as a woman. But - I still think it is just as bad for a man to do it. I just FEEL more personally when a woman does it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sleepy Posted February 12, 2009 Share Posted February 12, 2009 I think it is unconscionable for a father to leave his children, and I know my dh agrees. Sadly, many men don't feel this way. It's beyond my understanding. :confused: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Linda in NE Posted February 12, 2009 Share Posted February 12, 2009 Speaking from personal observation, some fathers who physically reside in the home are not really there in an emotional, fathering sense. For the uninvolved father, a change of address is really no big deal. A greater question, in my opinion, is whether the children are better off without the daily reminder of how insignificant they are to that guy who lives in their home but never has anything to do with them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
katemary63 Posted February 12, 2009 Share Posted February 12, 2009 Speaking from personal observation, some fathers who physically reside in the home are not really there in an emotional, fathering sense. For the uninvolved father, a change of address is really no big deal. A greater question, in my opinion, is whether the children are better off without the daily reminder of how insignificant they are to that guy who lives in their home but never has anything to do with them. Wow! That makes you think, doesn't it? Very important point IMO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TraceyS/FL Posted February 12, 2009 Share Posted February 12, 2009 Speaking from personal observation, some fathers who physically reside in the home are not really there in an emotional, fathering sense. For the uninvolved father, a change of address is really no big deal. A greater question, in my opinion, is whether the children are better off without the daily reminder of how insignificant they are to that guy who lives in their home but never has anything to do with them. :iagree: This perfectly sums it up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danestress Posted February 12, 2009 Share Posted February 12, 2009 When people divorce, a lot of times the Dad thinks they can divorce but that he can still be a real Dad. And sometimes that works out great, but a lot of times the Mom really contributes to making that very difficult over time. I think women sometimes sort of "claim" the children as their own and have a hard time when Dad parents in his own house without her supervision. It's hard after a divorce for Mom's to release the desire to control what movies Dad let the kids watch, what time he makes them go to bed, what he feeds them etc. And I understand that it's hard to lose control over those things, but that's what happens when you divorce. You lose time with children, you lose money, you lose control. In my experience, it's very difficult for men to understand that she gets her share of the money and she gets child support and he has to stop trying to control how she deals with that money. And it's very difficult for women to understand that when he has the kids, he gets to parent his way. Obviously a lot of men also back out of parenting after a divorce because they are selfish, don't want to deal with the hard parts of parenting, etc. But I also think that some just want to be free of having to deal with their ex-wives, and one way to do that is to just step back from the family. I do think it's very very sad. I think my children's happiness is closely tied to their relationship with their father. I can't imagine them not having him daily, and my husband definitely takes his greatest joy from time he spends with them. Life is messy and complicated and I am not trying to "blame" men or women because every situation is different. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C_l_e_0..Q_c Posted February 12, 2009 Share Posted February 12, 2009 My brother walked away from his twin daughters, but it was after a divorce. A very nasty divorce. Unfortunately for him, his ex happened to have the best divorce attorney in the province as her uncle. My bro got accused of everything possible under the sun, including incest (he used to kiss his 4yo daughters good night..) Anyway, visitation rights were given but only under supervision. In short, he had to go to the same place where criminals go to see their children. He refused. He didn't want his daughters to think he was a criminal. He decided to walk away. I can't blame him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swellmomma Posted February 12, 2009 Share Posted February 12, 2009 Speaking from personal observation, some fathers who physically reside in the home are not really there in an emotional, fathering sense. For the uninvolved father, a change of address is really no big deal. A greater question, in my opinion, is whether the children are better off without the daily reminder of how insignificant they are to that guy who lives in their home but never has anything to do with them. So very very true. My ex was like that before we left. He wanted nothing more than to pretend the kids didn't exist, wouldn't come home if they were still awake, or their toys were out, I had to put all traces of children in the home out of sight before he would come home at night, and on weekends etc he would just ignore them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ellie Posted February 12, 2009 Share Posted February 12, 2009 I think it's reprehensible for a parent of either gender to abandon the children. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rosie_0801 Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 Speaking from personal observation, some fathers who physically reside in the home are not really there in an emotional, fathering sense. For the uninvolved father, a change of address is really no big deal. A greater question, in my opinion, is whether the children are better off without the daily reminder of how insignificant they are to that guy who lives in their home but never has anything to do with them. Many wives feel that way too, methinks... Rosie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colleen Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 I'm willing to let the thread die, honest: it's just that I don't think there'd be the same outrage expressed. I agree. I believe society holds mothers to a higher standard. I also believe mothers hold other mothers to a higher standard. And in both cases, I think that's just the natural effect of what is, in general, a different relationship between a mother and her child versus a father and his child. Speaking from a biological perspective (which is my only experience), I honestly do believe mothers have an inherently stronger bond to their children than do fathers. Please understand. I'm not saying fathers can't love their children to pieces. I'm not saying fathers can't be the primary caregivers of their own children. I'm saying that the in my experience, and in the experience of my close friends with whom I've had this discussion, when a child develops within you there is generally a bond that is different than that of the father-child relationship. I believe that difference is one reason why we hold mothers to a different standard. The other reason is simply tradition. We expect mothers not to leave their children. For a variety of reasons, our expectations of men differ. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kalanamak Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 (edited) I knew a little girl whose mother was not reliable. Dad was. She was 5. We were talking and something somehow came up about a father leaving his kids. She turned to me with wide-eyed wonder and said "A FATHER? Leaving his kids?" You'd have thought I'd suggested that fish fly south for the winter. I thought that said a lot about her dad. My father, who was rather Victorian (born in 1909), felt that an abandoning father or the father of a child born out of wedlock was more to be scorned than a woman, because he believed women were "weaker vessels". If a woman left a baby, she must be an emotional wreck, but if a man did, he was just bad, bad, bad. He also gave a gimlet eye to any culture that had a high rate of children born out of wedlock. His motives were not religious (he was a non-believer), btw. And then there was that man in Turkey who was trying to sell his kidney to pay for his daughter's medical care. Hard to think of him walking off whistling. Edited February 13, 2009 by kalanamak Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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