Ah, my town. Nothing like mixing a missions trip and assault weapon shopping.

[Colleen]

So my boys and I grabbed a bite to eat at a local cafe earlier ~ in between piano lessons and chess club. This is a long-standing farmer hang-out kinda place, owned by a friend of mine who bought it from her mother. I rarely go there, although it's well run and so on. But the food isn't my usual fare, and the chit-chat, well...the conversation at a neighboring table today sums it up well. It began as a discussion about missions trips to Central America. Well and good. Then it turns to how much easier and cheaper it is to pick up an AK-47 down there than up here.

 

"So you carry one down there?"

 

"Hell, I carry one where ever I can. I don't go anywhere I can't be armed."

 

Because I rilly, rilly like the gal who owns this place, I chose that moment to escape outside for a breath of fresh air.

 

Ho hum. Just another day in paradise!

[PariSarah]

Note to self: insert "No Weapons" clause into all future missions trip announcements.

 

[Jackie in AR]

So my boys and I grabbed a bite to eat at a local cafe earlier ~ in between piano lessons and chess club. This is a long-standing farmer hang-out kinda place, owned by a friend of mine who bought it from her mother. I rarely go there, although it's well run and so on. But the food isn't my usual fare, and the chit-chat, well...the conversation at a neighboring table today sums it up well. It began as a discussion about missions trips to Central America. Well and good. Then it turns to how much easier and cheaper it is to pick up an AK-47 down there than up here.

 

"So you carry one down there?"

 

"Hell, I carry one where ever I can. I don't go anywhere I can't be armed."

 

Because I rilly, rilly like the gal who owns this place, I chose that moment to escape outside for a breath of fresh air.

 

Ho hum. Just another day in paradise!

 

So, was he (or she) packing a weapon today at the cafe? :D

 

That is just hilarious.

[Jean in Newcastle]

Well, he would be right at home in the Philippines! When we were there last year (for a 3 wks. mission trip) they were very common - carried by store security guards! It was a bit surreal to be greeted at the door to the store by very polite store owners who were standing right next to a guard with a sub-machine gun or in some cases - a sawed-off shotgun. Now there's a deterrent for shop-lifting for you!

[Jackie in AR]

Well, he would be right at home in the Philippines! When we were there last year (for a 3 wks. mission trip) they were very common - carried by store security guards! It was a bit surreal to be greeted at the door to the store by very polite store owners who were standing right next to a guard with a sub-machine gun or in some cases - a sawed-off shotgun. Now there's a deterrent for shop-lifting for you!

 

No joke. :D

[Colleen]

So, was he (or she) packing a weapon today at the cafe?

 

Oh, I'd bet my bottom dollar on it. But I try rilly, rilly hard not to think about the number of people I know who are packing a (fill in the blank with firearm of your choice) at all times ~ church included. Interesting...what brings a sense of security to some brings a sense of revulsion to others...

[Karen sn]

 

Oh, I'd bet my bottom dollar on it. But I try rilly, rilly hard not to think about the number of people I know who are packing a (fill in the blank with firearm of your choice) at all times ~ church included. Interesting...what brings a sense of security to some brings a sense of revulsion to others...

 

Colleen, I totally respect your right to feel that way. But imagine if - in every mall or college class - one concealed weapons permit holding individual was there when some whack job wanted to commit suicide AFTER killing all those innocent shoppers/students.

 

Theoretically - I don't like guns - would be a whole different world if they'd never been invented. But they ARE here - and so often easily found in the hands of the WRONG people. If the RIGHT people carried them more often, we could save innocent lives and take out the suicidal gunmen BEFORE they kill the 5 to 20 innocent unarmend shoppers and students.

 

I feel safe when farmers and locals carry guns. I trust the legal concealed weapons permit carrying individuals. It's the kids who steal or illegally buy guns who I am afraid of.

 

If some psycho just travelling through town wanted to open fire on the innocent - it would be one of those men you overheard who would stop the psycho before he hurt your family, friends, and neighbors.

 

Just a thought. Because my kid is only going to college when she can shoot her target, understands gun safety, and can legally carry a weapon concealed. If more sane people carried guns - the psycho gunmen wouldn't get away with much!

[Sandra in NC]

Theoretically - I don't like guns - would be a whole different world if they'd never been invented. But they ARE here - and so often easily found in the hands of the WRONG people. If the RIGHT people carried them more often, we could save innocent lives and take out the suicidal gunmen BEFORE they kill the 5 to 20 innocent unarmend shoppers and students.

 

I feel safe when farmers and locals carry guns. I trust the legal concealed weapons permit carrying individuals. It's the kids who steal or illegally buy guns who I am afraid of.QUOTE]

 

I agree wholeheartedly. Utah is the only state where concealed carry is allowed on college campuses. I don't think they have much trouble there.

It's the state where an off duty policeman stopped a shooting rampage in a shopping mall (by violating the gun-free zone sign and carrying his weapon anyway). I do not own a gun, but I feel safter knowing people like my brother in law (a volunteer firefighter and upstanding citizen) carry concealed weapons.

 

In Britain, they've outlawed guns, toy guns, and now they want to make knives any larger than a small pocket knife illegal. Bad guys will always have weapons. We can not legislate that away!

[Holly IN]

- one concealed weapons permit holding individual was there when some whack job wanted to commit suicide AFTER killing all those innocent shoppers/students.

 

Theoretically - I don't like guns - would be a whole different world if they'd never been invented. But they ARE here - and so often easily found in the hands of the WRONG people. If the RIGHT people carried them more often, we could save innocent lives and take out the suicidal gunmen BEFORE they kill the 5 to 20 innocent unarmend shoppers and students.

 

 

 

 

That is exactly what my dh said in our conversation over the killings at Northern Illinois University. We need more sane and right people carrying the weapons with permits of course. I agree with you Karen!!

 

Holly

[HollyDay]

In Britain, they've outlawed guns, toy guns, !

 

I just want to comment on the toy gun thing. I recently had the wits scared out of me by a toy gun. I walked into my friend's place of business (she is a massage therapist and creates her own line of lotions,etc) and saw on the back counter a very nasty looking hand gun. Having my 2 dc with me, I was startled. I wondered if she had it because she works alone much of the time. Then her adorable youngest dc runs in and grabs it waving it around. I just about had a heart attack. They laugh since it was "just" a toy - the thing looked so very real.

 

Not long after that I was driving my car in my subdivision past the open area park we have. Several teens were hanging out there and 2 of them were carrying "weapons" - 1 a handgun, the other a shotgun type thing. I saw them as I started around the turn. The one with the handgun, pointed it at my car, tracked us and "fired" it. All his buddies laughed up a storm. These were big teens - probably 6ft tall carrying toys (I hope) and laughing about pretending to shoot at a family in a car. I dont want to even talk about where this type of "play" leads and what it says.

 

These toys look real, very, very real. Besides scaring me and my dc for no reason, what about their safety too. IF someone felt genuinely threatened and had the means to defend themselves or their dc or they are waving one of these things around a police officer - would someone get shot - over a toy? Why do they have to look so realistic?

[PrairieAir]

I don't carry a gun. I don't particularly like guns myself. We have several rifles and shotguns for hunting. I have tried target shooting a few times and was actually a pretty good shot. But I don't enjoy guns. I do enjoy the deer meat my husband brings home. I had a friend whose husband required her to carry a gun whenever she went walking for exercise--with or without a friend and in a safe part of town. I personally would feel uncomfortable with that.

 

BUT, I agree with everything Karen sn said. I don't care to carry or use a gun, but I want those who prefer to carry one to have that right. It usually is not legal gun owners who are a problem. People who set out to commit a crime usually obtain one illegally for that purpose so that it cannot be easily tied to them.

 

I understand farmers who want to carry guns. With the increase in production and use of meth, farmers are in greater danger because they have one of the ingredients. (Sorry, can't remember what that is at the moment. Some kind of fertilizer maybe?) It happens around here, and I wouldn't want to be the farmer to unexpectedly walk up on someone stealing chemicals for use in meth and be unprepared.

 

I also understand why someone on a missions trip might want to carry a concealed weapon. Many missions trips are in places which are just not as safe as home. The town next to ours is the home of Gracia Burnham. People around here are well aware of how dangerous a missions trip can be.

 

I'm not sure what situations would make me feel the need to carry a gun. I am thankful that dh took one on our backpacking trip to Colorado with our four (then) young children. We hoped we'd never have to use it, and we never did, but with the possibility of a mountain lion or bear attack, it was important for us to be able to defend our family. After backpacking in Colorado, we headed down to the Grand Canyon. I was thankful dh had the gun again when we stopped at The Anasazi Inn late around midnight before hitting the Grand Canyon the next day. It was a scary, seedy looking place but there was no other place for miles and miles around and we couldn't drive any further.

[Rebel]

I thought toy guns all had a yellow or orange colored barrel tip so they aren't confused with real guns. Maybe it's just a Texas thing. My son's paintball guns don't have the colored tip, but they look nothing like real guns anyway. The giant hopper on top is a dead giveaway. :-)

[Friederike in Persia]

what do you do with a gun in church? Put it next to your chair?

[Diana in OR]

what do you do with a gun in church? Put it next to your chair?

 

People who bring their guns to church usually carry them concealed. There are all sorts of variations of holsters that allow you to carry your gun comfotably and completely unnoticed.

 

Don't ask me how I know this. ;) And, no, I don't carry.

[Bev in B'ville]

Here in Georgia there's a county that passed a law stating that all homeowners must have a gun in the home. They passed this law several years ago and crime in that county has diminished greatly. (google Kennesaw County in Georgia for more information)

 

I agree that if more responsible people have guns, and the bad guys know it, perhaps they'll be less likely to do harm. However, someone on a suicide mission is a whole different matter. They expect to be shot and killed, if not by someone else then by their own hands. We can only pray that someone else nearby has a gun and knows how to use it so that innocent lives are spared.

 

Just a side note. I used to live in downtown Atlanta and go to college at night. My father gave me a gun and told me to carry it back and forth from the parking lot (a very dark parking lot)to the apartment building I lived in (I did get a permit to carry a gun). One night, on the way from my car into my apartment building a male with a stocking mask approached me with a knife. I honestly to this day cannot tell you what, if anything, he said as I was completely focused on the knife. Suddenly I remembered I had a gun right there, on top of my books in my arms. I picked it up, pointed it at the man, who then began begging me not to shoot him. He ran away, thankfully. If I had had to fire I probably would have hit every car in the parking lot and missed him! My hands were shaking badly. Having a gun is not the end game, having the training to use one in critical situations is.

 

Just my $.02.

[abbeyej]

I trust the legal concealed weapons permit carrying individuals. It's the kids who steal or illegally buy guns who I am afraid of.

 

From what I've read, the guns carried in the last two university shootings were obtained legally. Perhaps they shouldn't have bee

 

I would not consider myself a "gun control advocate", but I absolutely do *not* feel an added sense of safety at the idea of more concealed weapons on college campuses (yes, dh is a professor at a large university) or malls, etc.

[DIY-DY]

I thought toy guns all had a yellow or orange colored barrel tip so they aren't confused with real guns. Maybe it's just a Texas thing.

 

:-)

[DIY-DY]

 

Interesting...what brings a sense of security to some brings a sense of revulsion to others...

 

I'd rather eat in a cafe where every customer in there is a law-abiding gun owner carrying either concealed or open, than in one like the Luby's in TX, any day. Particularly with my children with me.

[PariSarah]

If the RIGHT people carried them more often, we could save innocent lives and take out the suicidal gunmen BEFORE they kill the 5 to 20 innocent unarmed shoppers and students.

 

While there is, I'm sure, anecdotal evidence that legally purchased concealed weapons can be used to stop crimes when the stars align favorably, there is far greater evidence that the most effective ways to prevent crime have to do with education and participatory government. People who have access to education and the opportunities it provides, and who feel that the laws of their land are just, tend to commit far fewer violent crimes than those who have scanty access to education and who perceive themselves victimized by the law rather than protected by it.

 

My aversion to violence (even in self-defense) is connected to my religious faith, which not everyone on this board shares, so I will not mount a defense of my own (or what I suspect is Colleen's) position on guns and gun control (and guns in churches :mad:). But I did want to say that the evidence for your position--that carrying a concealed weapon makes you safer--is not very convincing.

 

If it were, my father (who was a police officer) would certainly have had all of his children trained to carry a gun safely. Instead, he forbade us ever to touch one.

[RebeccaC]

At the last church shooting in CO a woman with a hand gun curbed the death toll considerably. I bet everyone in the church foyer picking up their nursery kids were exceedingly glad that she was carrying that Sunday morning. As it was two young hs sisters died in front of their parents and sisters in the parking lot where no one was carrying other than the gunman.

 

I live 35 minutes from where the shooting took place this last week. I prayer lead at our local House of Prayer and most of the folks who come to pray are between 14 and 24. I lead Tuesdays 12 noon to one right now. When our session was over all the college kids, most of which were young men, could talk about was the shooting. They all knew some one in the class who escaped or personally some one shot. One young man had a sister in the class and each man thought it would have been better if some one had been carrying and took the shooter out. I did not bring up carrying but the kids did. I think if the college shooting trend continues we will see a lot of young folks pushing for the right to carry.

 

All that said my weapon of choice being ex air force is an M-16 it far out weighs an AK-47 or any other weapon that I have handled.

[RebeccaC]

While there is, I'm sure, anecdotal evidence that legally purchased concealed weapons can be used to stop crimes when the stars align favorably, there is far greater evidence that the most effective ways to prevent crime have to do with education and participatory government. People who have access to education and the opportunities it provides, and who feel that the laws of their land are just, tend to commit far fewer violent crimes than those who have scanty access to education and who perceive themselves victimized by the law rather than protected by it.

 

 

 

Well I don't think the last two college shootings bear this bit out. I'd like to see the evidence that so many folks claim that education and government is the cure all. Seems like the last shooter here at NIU was very pleasant and a grad student at that. I might be wrong but it seems to me that being a grad student meant he had a whole ton of education behind him and yet it did not stop him from killing and shooting up a place of higher education.

 

My father's mother was Amish don't think I got too much of the pacifist blood in me tho. Utopia is a myth and what you describe above is a utopian myth there will always be some one who feels victimized by something or someone and a small percentage of those folks will take it out on innocent people.

[Bev in B'ville]

While there is, I'm sure, anecdotal evidence that legally purchased concealed weapons can be used to stop crimes when the stars align favorably, there is far greater evidence that the most effective ways to prevent crime have to do with education and participatory government. People who have access to education and the opportunities it provides, and who feel that the laws of their land are just, tend to commit far fewer violent crimes than those who have scanty access to education and who perceive themselves victimized by the law rather than protected by it.

 

My aversion to violence (even in self-defense) is connected to my religious faith, which not everyone on this board shares, so I will not mount a defense of my own (or what I suspect is Colleen's) position on guns and gun control (and guns in churches :mad:). But I did want to say that the evidence for your position--that carrying a concealed weapon makes you safer--is not very convincing.

 

If it were, my father (who was a police officer) would certainly have had all of his children trained to carry a gun safely. Instead, he forbade us ever to touch one.

 

 

 

if I hadn't had a gun, but I feel convinced that I came out better for having one than not (see post below).

 

If education and participatory government should show a reduction in crime, then why is the U.S. a country with one of the highest crime rates? After all, everyone (including illegal aliens) have access to education and our system of government is one of the most participatory in the world.

 

Another side note. When I was in high school, we had a rifle team that competed with other schools. The kids brought their guns on the school bus and stored them in their lockers until practice time after school. There were no shootings at any of the schools then.

 

I think the statistics of the county in GA that shows a reduction in both violent and overall crime since instituting a mandatory gun ownership law bears out the fact that criminals will think twice before committing a crime in that area. The surrounding counties have not seen a decrease in crime.

 

I respect your views that you do not wish to own a gun, but the 2nd amendment bears out our right to own guns to protect ourselves. I will not see my family harmed if I have ability to protect us. Thanks to my reserve training in the U.S. Army for 8 years I have the training to do so. I wished I had had that training before the guy tried to mug me.

[PariSarah]

I'd like to see the evidence that so many folks claim that education and government is the cure all.

 

I didn't say it was a cure-all. I used words like "tend to" and "far fewer." I don't believe in cure-alls that don't involve the second coming of Christ.

 

My point was that concealed weapons aren't any more of a cure-all than education and representative democracy. If you want to go anecdotal, you can talk about all the incidents where 1) criminals obtained and carried their weapons legally, right up to the point where they used them to do something illegal, and 2) where a legally obtained and carried weapon was turned against its owner by the attacker at whom the weapon was pointed. If you're looking for cure-alls, any instances like that would demonstrate that free access to guns is not one of them.

 

My father's mother was Amish don't think I got too much of the pacifist blood in me tho. Utopia is a myth and what you describe above is a utopian myth there will always be some one who feels victimized by something or someone and a small percentage of those folks will take it out on innocent people.

 

It's interesting that you brought up the Amish. My instinctual response to your first post (where you said that parents were probably glad that their children were saved by the woman with the handgun) was that none of the parents of the children who were murdered in that school shooting in PA a couple years ago started advocating concealed carry permits for the Amish. On the other hand, they accepted the assistance of armed police officers, who presumably would have killed the shooter on their behalf if the shooter hadn't committed suicide. They seem to have managed the mental gymnastics that let them be grateful for what is good while refusing to accept how that good came about. (In this way, they are like a woman whose beloved child was conceived through rape. She is "grateful" for the rape in the sense that she loves her child; yet you will not find her advocating for the repeal of rape laws.)

 

I don't think that the Amish, to take only one example of a group of people who reject violence, are living with their heads in the sand. They know exactly what the costs and risks of rejecting violence are. And yet they continue to reject violence. Is it because they're stupid? Because they didn't love the children that were murdered?

 

Or is it because they believe that the costs and risks of rejecting violence are less than the costs and risks of trying to manage violence through more violence?

 

Their refusal to use violence is all bound up with their religious beliefs, which, again, are not shared by everyone on this board. So I have no intention of using them as an example of what our nation should do. Their choices make no sense apart from their faith in their God.

 

I'm only saying that the calculus you're talking about (how many people are spared by guns vs. how many people are killed by guns) does not lead to clear-cut answers. The calculus that I'm talking about does: the rate at which well-educated people living in effective representative democracies commit violent crimes is demonstrably lower than under-educated people or people living under tyrannical dictatorships.

[RebeccaC]

there is far greater evidence that the most effective ways to prevent crime have to do with education and participatory government.

 

 

By posting this line you implied or seemed to imply that there is evidence that your way is right way. I worked for a bit in the field of science and I know that studies, which is what most folks use as evidence can be and often are skewed to match political beliefs and religious beliefs. I did not ask for anecdotal although I gave it. I would tho like to see the evidence you are posting and see if it is biased or not. I suspect it probably is.

 

Look I respect religious belief I do not respect fuzzy evidence. Took a course in college that should have been title, Creative Grant Writing How to Lie Convincingly using Statistics.

 

As to the Amish parents they got to choose forgiveness after the fact the folks in the CO church were in the process of picking up their babies and tots when the shooting happened. What you choose in the moment of stress is quite different from what you choose after the fact. The woman who shot back defended and then later forgave. Would it have been better if she allowed the gunman to use all of his ammo? I wonder if some of the Amish fathers would have chosen to defend if given the chance? I don't know and neither do they because they learned after the fact. Forgiveness does not mean that you choose not to defend as your police man father probably knows. The folks in the CO church were gald that 200 rounds or so of ammo was not used.

 

Actually I was brought as a pentecostal my paternal grandmother was Amish not I :D She was born in 1898 the youngest of 22 kids. Her mothers older brothers were dis-fellowshipped for running off as teens and fighting for the union in the Civil War after their farm was burnt down. It was the burning of their farm that persuaded them to hang up their pacifist beliefs and to defend their country. My family had been Ana-Baptist since the beginning of the movement we have documents of a great great......grand father being burnt at the stake for his beliefs. Probably got my non pacifist blood from them union boys tho :cool:

[Scarlett]

It's interesting that you brought up the Amish. They seem to have managed the mental gymnastics that let them be grateful for what is good while refusing to accept how that good came about. (In this way, they are like a woman whose beloved child was conceived through rape. She is "grateful" for the rape in the sense that she loves her child; yet you will not find her advocating for the repeal of rape laws.)

 

I don't think that the Amish, to take only one example of a group of people who reject violence, are living with their heads in the sand. They know exactly what the costs and risks of rejecting violence are. And yet they continue to reject violence. Is it because they're stupid? Because they didn't love the children that were murdered?

 

Or is it because they believe that the costs and risks of rejecting violence are less than the costs and risks of trying to manage violence through more violence?

 

Their refusal to use violence is all bound up with their religious beliefs, which, again, are not shared by everyone on this board. So I have no intention of using them as an example of what our nation should do. Their choices make no sense apart from their faith in their God.

 

Wow. Excellent post. Thank you.

[Friederike in Persia]

Just chalk it up to one of those crazy American things :D

 

To my surprise I have to say the "pro" people don't sound as crazy, as I always had assumed.

I know statistics don't change many people's thinking, but what about international ones, that show that in countries with much strikter laws, much less people die? (Not 100 percent sure about the statistics, got them from the West Wing:D)

[Colleen]

I agree that if more responsible people have guns' date=' and the bad guys know it, perhaps they'll be less likely to do harm.[/quote']

 

I don't. And even if I did, it wouldn't sway me to pack a gun.

 

I used to live in downtown Atlanta and go to college at night. My father gave me a gun and told me to carry it back and forth from the parking lot (a very dark parking lot)to the apartment building I lived in (I did get a permit to carry a gun). One night, on the way from my car into my apartment building a male with a stocking mask approached me with a knife. I honestly to this day cannot tell you what, if anything, he said as I was completely focused on the knife. Suddenly I remembered I had a gun right there, on top of my books in my arms. I picked it up, pointed it at the man, who then began begging me not to shoot him. He ran away, thankfully. If I had had to fire I probably would have hit every car in the parking lot and missed him! My hands were shaking badly. Having a gun is not the end game, having the training to use one in critical situations is.

 

I went to college in crime-riddled New Orleans, after which I lived by myself in Houston. I'm well acquainted with the potential for and realities of crime. Again, that doesn't affect my decision to refrain from gun ownership.

[Colleen]

If the RIGHT people carried them more often, we could save innocent lives and take out the suicidal gunmen BEFORE they kill the 5 to 20 innocent unarmend shoppers and students.

 

In your opinion.:) I've given this a great deal of thought for the majority of my life and my stance remains unchanged ~ even with many friends on hand who do indeed carry concealed weapons. Thanks for sharing your thoughts, but I can not agree.

[Colleen]

I had a friend whose husband required her to carry a gun whenever she went walking for exercise"

 

What? How could her spouse "require" her to carry a gun? Presumably, she preferred to do so ~ or didn't mind too terribly much, anyway.

 

It usually is not legal gun owners who are a problem. People who set out to commit a crime usually obtain one illegally for that purpose so that it cannot be easily tied to them.

 

Is that your opinion or are you basing that comment on statistical evidence?

[Colleen]

Needless to say, I agree with your comments in this discussion.

[Colleen]

I respect your views that you do not wish to own a gun' date=' but the 2nd amendment bears out our right to own guns to protect ourselves.[/quote']

 

Yes, that's one interpretation of a well-regulated militia.

[sdWTMer]

I'd rather eat in a cafe where every customer in there is a law-abiding gun owner carrying either concealed or open, than in one like the Luby's in TX, any day. Particularly with my children with me.

 

I agree Dy. I'm the same way even though we don't own any guns.

[Scarlett]

 

In your opinion.:) I've given this a great deal of thought for the majority of my life and my stance remains unchanged ~ even with many friends on hand who do indeed carry concealed weapons. Thanks for sharing your thoughts, but I can not agree.

 

When I was in my 20s a young man tried to get me to open my door to him when I was home alone. I refused and as I watched him walk away I saw him turn and come back to my bedroom window.I called the police, the man ran away and was never caught. When I told my BIL this story he was very upset (as was I) thinking of the harm that could have come to me. He said, 'See!!! That is why you need a gun!'.

 

That response still makes me laugh to this day...because as I told him at the time, 'what would I have done with the gun? Opened my door to him and held it on him until he 'tried' something and then shot him?'

 

If I had opened my door to him he could have had me incapacitated before I could have reached the phone much less a gun. What saved me that day was using the caution that my dh beat into me (because it didn't come naturally to me). I didn't need a gun. I just didn't open the door.

[Peek a Boo]

 

Yes, that's one interpretation of a well-regulated militia.

 

 

I tend to agree w/ Sarah on the ultimate outcome of violence and share her religious convictions on the issue. i also agree w/ Colleen on the irony of the OP. The movie "Sergeant York" never did sit well w/ me.

 

However, I have heard the "well regulated militia" as being a state-issue argument quite a few times and simply disagree that it is a state right --the entire point of the Bill of Rights was to protect the rights *of the individual*.

 

""A bill of rights," Jefferson wrote, "is what the people are entitled to against every government on earth [emphasis mine-- includes state and local gvmts], general or particular, and what no just government should refuse, or rest on inference."

 

 

The Bill of Rights was added specifically to combat those who would not ratify the Constitution unless they saw a strong protection of individual liberties. The Framers intentionally used language that defined the Gvt, the State, and the People as Individuals. The second amendment is purposefully directed to the people [as are the other 7], not the State. The Supreme Court has upheld this viewpoint. The 9th and 10th amendments spell this out pretty well. i have to agree that any attempt by the state to infringe upon the individual's liberty to show up ready to participate as a well regulated militia [where we have to define "regulated" and "militia" according to the era's vocabulary] is probably the best example for why the Framers included that.

 

for anyone interested, here's an article that gives a pretty good rundown on both sides of the discussion:

 

http://www.usconstitution.net/consttop_2nd.html

[Peek a Boo]

That response still makes me laugh to this day...because as I told him at the time, 'what would I have done with the gun? Opened my door to him and held it on him until he 'tried' something and then shot him?'

 

I'm sure that most people who are pro-gun would respond "um, no....you shoot him through the window if he WON't leave your property or at least you'll have something to shoot him with when he kicks in the door or busts a window."

 

I do agree that caution is the best weapon. But if that person had been adamant about getting in [drugged, psychotic, etc], no amount of caution would have prevented it. However, the mere presence of a gun pointed in one's direction does wonders for weakening a person's resolve, as demonstrated in the case scenario a few posts above.

[Scarlett]

I'm sure that most people who are pro-gun would respond "um, no....you shoot him through the window if he WON't leave your property or at least you'll have something to shoot him with when he kicks in the door or busts a window."

 

I do agree that caution is the best weapon. But if that person had been adamant about getting in [drugged, psychotic, etc], no amount of caution would have prevented it. However, the mere presence of a gun pointed in one's direction does wonders for weakening a person's resolve, as demonstrated in the case scenario a few posts above.

 

Ah, well I probably wasn't clear enough with the description of that day. He wasn't standing there screaming, 'let me in so I can rape/murder you!' He was a well dressed calm looking young man standing in the pouring rain, asking to use my phone. (long before cell phones). It only became apparent that he most likely had ill intentions when I saw him peeking in my bedroom window.

 

And although I agree that no amount of caution will prevent a crazed person from getting in my home if they really want in, I still do no believe guns are the answer.

[Peek a Boo]

hee hee-- I'm sure that when it comes to whether guns can be *effective* in protecting you.... there is simply no argument. The philosophy of "guns aren't the answer" is a moral justification, not an evidential one. Your additional description only fuels the argument FOR having a gun --you simply cannot tell someone's intentions --guessing that he wouldn't break the window based on his demeanor is useless.

 

Like sarah, my discussions in this arena have just HAD to boil down to religious conviction. Am I prepared to die because i do not want to shoot someone to prevent my death --or my child's death?

[Scarlett]

hee hee-- I'm sure that when it comes to whether guns can be *effective* in protecting you.... there is simply no argument. The philosophy of "guns aren't the answer" is a moral justification, not an evidential one.

 

 

The philosophy of it is a moral justification. However, I also believe there is factual evidence that a gun in a home is much more likely to cause accidental harm to the actual children living there than to protect against a potential intruder. I don't have that statistical information at my fingertips, and besides it would not convince anyone here anyway.

 

We do agree on one thing....it does come down to a religious conviction for me and probably many others.

[Amy in NY]

what do you do with a gun in church? Put it next to your chair?

 

 

I'm coming VERY late to this discussion but wanted to say that I recall a recent church shooting out West somewhere. No place is safe from the wackos.

 

Amy

 

(And I completely agree with Karen sn. She's spot on with this one.)

[PrairieAir]

I tend to agree w/ Sarah on the ultimate outcome of violence and share her religious convictions on the issue. i also agree w/ Colleen on the irony of the OP. The movie "Sergeant York" never did sit well w/ me.

 

This really has nothing to do with the thread. I'm just curious why the movie "Sergeant York" never sat well with you. It's been a while since I saw it last, but I'm searching my memory and coming up empty for reasons why it wouldn't sit well with you or how it might tie in to the rest of this. Please explain so I don't spend all night tossing and turning over this one:)

[unsinkable]

But, Colleen, if you don't have a gun, how are you going to KILL the kids at the library? :)

[Peek a Boo]

This really has nothing to do with the thread. I'm just curious why the movie "Sergeant York" never sat well with you. It's been a while since I saw it last, but I'm searching my memory and coming up empty for reasons why it wouldn't sit well with you or how it might tie in to the rest of this. Please explain so I don't spend all night tossing and turning over this one:)

 

actually, Sergeant York has quite a bit TO do w/ the thread, lol. Whether it's right/moral to kill another person. In the movie, he argues pretty much a similar POV that Sarah uses. But as he finds himself in the war situation w/ people dropping dead around him, decides he needs TO kill in order to save other lives. I simply believe he was right to begin with and waffled on principle :)

[RebeccaC]

Sergeant York is a very good example for this thread especially when you pair him with Romans 13:1-5. Or take the words of Jesus and what he said about swords, Matthew 10:34 and Luke 22:36 where he tells His disciples "and whoever has no sword is to sell his coat and buy one" and his actions when cleaning the temple twice. True He said that those who live by the sword will die by the sword but what solider does not know and accept that?

 

Just some passages to chew on for those of y'all reading this thread and standing on religious conviction. Just wondering if you are familiar with these and other passage on the subject.

[Colleen]

But, Colleen, if you don't have a gun, how are you going to KILL the kids at the library? :)

 

With my bare hands, of course! Why use an intermediary weapon?:p

[Colleen]

I'm well aware of the Scripture passages you cited, and I think I can safely say the same holds true for both Sarah and Peek. In my case, though, it is not a matter of religious conviction per se. My views on gun control are not an product of my faith.

[RebeccaC]

I'm well aware of the Scripture passages you cited, and I think I can safely say the same holds true for both Sarah and Peek. In my case, though, it is not a matter of religious conviction per se. My views on gun control are not an product of my faith.

 

Ahhh so then to the question that pops to mind if you are familiar with Jesus saying sell your cloak and buy a sword why the upset with the connection of buying an AK-47 and a missions trip?

 

Just so ya know I do not own a gun although I was awarded the Master Marksmen medal in the Air Force. I certainly would not buy an AK-47 mission trip or no mission trip :D However both my sons and dh shoot rifles in many varieties black powder and flintlock being favs of theirs. We as a family do not own a rifle they shoot with their scout troop and French trapper reenactment troop.

[Peek a Boo]

Sergeant York is a very good example for this thread especially when you pair him with Romans 13:1-5. Or take the words of Jesus and what he said about swords, Matthew 10:34 and Luke 22:36 where he tells His disciples "and whoever has no sword is to sell his coat and buy one" and his actions when cleaning the temple twice. True He said that those who live by the sword will die by the sword but what solider does not know and accept that?

 

Just some passages to chew on for those of y'all reading this thread and standing on religious conviction. Just wondering if you are familiar with these and other passage on the subject.

 

oh. yeah. :)

 

Boy howdy are we familiar, lol....

 

yes, Rebecca-- and if you google Christian pacifism you'll find quite a few articles showing a different interpretation of those passages :-)

 

This guy below is kinda harsh, and I disagree w/ some of his conclusions in other areas, but he does an excellent job demonstrating the pacifistic principles of the Prince of Peace.

 

http://members.aol.com/XianAnarch/pacifism/

 

submitting to authorities does not equal a mandate to kill someone. per the ruling mentioned previously, owning a gun to "submit to the authorities" is not the same as using said gun. There are also at least two instances where refusing to submit to authorities is deemed absolutely right and proper in God's eyes --the Hebrew midwives and Daniel.

 

"Buying a sword" is clarified by the very next verse: Luke 22:37 --to fulfill "he was numbered w/ the transgressors". TWO SWORDS would be enough to defend a dozen guys from a roman army??? c'mon..... i think His "that will be enough" was accompanied by a heavy sigh and yet another "Why don't they GET this???"

 

http://members.aol.com/XianAnarch/pacifism/self-defense.htm

 

clearing the temple [using force to accomplish a specific task] is far from the use of deadly force. Christ does bring a sword --a sword of righteousness.

 

http://members.aol.com/XianAnarch/pacifism/anti-abs.htm

 

so yes-- there are a few different ways to interpret those passages, and yes, as colleen mentioned, we are aware. I can see Colleen being aware of the Christian pacifist view and still holding a mostly secular view of gun control --just as I tend to be conservative on many matters but more from a secular standpoint than a religious one.

[kdeno]

Otherwise know as non-resistance. Non-resistance stems from Jesus' teaching on loving your enemies also if someone asks for your coat, give him your shirt also. Not agreeing or disagreeing, just clarifying ( or muddying the waters as it were)

 

Kari

[Peek a Boo]

Otherwise know as non-resistance. Non-resistance stems from Jesus' teaching on loving your enemies also if someone asks for your coat, give him your shirt also. Not agreeing or disagreeing, just clarifying ( or muddying the waters as it were)

 

actually, not all forms of christian pacifism condone non-resistance of any type. Joseph fled Egypt. Paul fled. Christ Himself fled. Christ obviously "resisted" when He cleared the Temple. Many pacifists would not have a problem w/ three guys holding down a violent criminal till police could arrest him --they would just have a problem w/ killing him.

 

Just wanted to clarify that too :)

[Caroline]

Here in Georgia there's a county that passed a law stating that all homeowners must have a gun in the home. They passed this law several years ago and crime in that county has diminished greatly. (google Kennesaw County in Georgia for more information)

 

Just my $.02.

 

Kennesaw is a city, not a county. The law was passed to make a political statement about an anti-gun law passed in a town in Illinois. The law in Kennesaw carries no punishment and is not enforced. No one has ever been prosecuted under this law. I know plenty of people who live in Kennsesaw who own no weapons. The small reduction in the Kennesaw crime rate (although there has been no reduction in the burglary rate, while the one in the town in Illinois has dropped significantly) is because they jettisoned the higher crime areas back into Cobb County, so they are no longer part of Kennesaw. (I know there is a WSJ article calling Kennesaw a county, but it is not. It is part of Cobb County.)