Please explain some things to me; what is a "witch" and what is a "pagan"?

[PiCO]

I follow the scriptures, so I know that magic and divination are condemned, so I was wondering the same thing. After speaking with a Witch, I have found that a lot of what Witches do is similar to Eastern medicine. The sciences of Eastern medicine manipulate the body's energy meridians. Witches take it a step further and use those energies in spells. I, of course, can't really explain further, so I will leave it at that. But it shows how careful a Christian must be when pursuing health care. There seems to be a fine line.

 

I don't understand. What do you mean by this? Your doctor might actually be a witch?

 

Neighbor Kids Practicing Witchcraft Here is an eye-opening thread, particularly the responses of the Witch, Marjorie in Arizona.

 

What's the point of linking to a thread on another message board? Especially a thread with no basis in fact- for all we know the OP made the whole thing up. Looked to me like "kalphs" was just trying to stir up trouble. Seemed like "Marjorie in Arizona" was trying to clarify the situation by asking some reasonable questions, which "kalphs" refused to answer by saying she "wasn't going down that road." Seems silly, because "kalphs" started the thread to begin with.

 

I guess you lost me.

[runninmommy]

The Bible makes it very clear that other gods do indeed exist and have power.

[/font][/b]

 

??? Please give me the scriptures for this reference.:confused:

 

Are you talking literal Gods?

Edited January 30, 2009 by runninmommy

[Lovedtodeath]

I just thought that what Marjorie had to say added a little bit to my understanding of what Witches do. That's all. I didn't think about the rest of the thread annoying anyone. It was not my intention.

 

I don't understand. What do you mean by this? Your doctor might actually be a witch?

 

I am saying two things... some natural doctors do things that we do not understand because they are based in energy manipulation, but they are not Witches. And... some doctors do in fact do the exact same thing that Witches do. In light of that fact and my belief system, (and I think the belief system of the OP) I have found it necessary to be very picky about which doctors I go to.

[PiCO]

??? Please give me the scriptures for this reference.:confused:

 

Are you talking literal Gods?

 

How 'bout the first two commandments?

 

1. You shall have no other gods before me.

2. You shall not make for yourself any carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate me, but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.

Pretty clear to me that Yahweh knows there are other gods and doesn't want his followers to recognize them.

[PiCO]

I just thought that what Marjorie had to say added a little bit to my understanding of what Witches do. That's all. I didn't think about the rest of the thread annoying anyone. It was not my intention.

 

Thanks for clearing that up. I re-read the thread, and I'm still not sure what Marjorie said that bothered you- seemed to me like she was asking questions trying to figure out what the OP was getting at. I'm just going to let it go because I don't think I will understand.

 

I am saying two things... some natural doctors do things that we do not understand because they are based in energy manipulation, but they are not Witches. And... some doctors do in fact do the exact same thing that Witches do. In light of that fact and my belief system, (and I think the belief system of the OP) I have found it necessary to be very picky about which doctors I go to.

 

I agree that it's important to know what your doctors are doing, and I think it's helpful to have a doctor with a similar belief system to your own.

[Katrina]

1. You shall have no other gods before me.

2. You shall not make for yourself any carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate me, but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.

Pretty clear to me that Yahweh knows there are other gods and doesn't want his followers to recognize them.

 

I always thought that these particular commandments were in response (for lack of a better word) to the Egyptian and Babylonian belief systems, who did worship multiple gods and made statues and painting of them. God was telling the Isrealites not to worship them, not because they were real gods and godesses, but because they were false gods (non-exsistant gods).

[KarenNC]

The Bible makes it very clear that other gods do indeed exist and have power.

 

It also makes it very clear that we are not to worship them.

 

 

That would not exactly be the traditional monotheistic interpretation. What you are talking about here is not monotheism but henotheism---the belief that there are many Gods, but that one is only to worship one of them. I have no problem with that--works perfectly well with my polytheistic theology (and I can certainly see where one could come to that interpretation of some verses of Scripture);). I hazard a guess that most Christians and Jews I know would not agree.

 

Perhaps you meant that Christianity teaches that the Bible says that there are other spiritual beings who, while not the equivalent of God, may have power but should not be worshiped *the same as or instead of* God? That would be more in line with the Christian and Jewish teachings with which I am familiar. I am not very familiar with Muslim teachings, but I think they are similar in this respect.

[Spy Car]

The Bible makes it very clear that other gods do indeed exist and have power.

 

I'm thinking this topic would make a great "spin-off" :lurk5:

[PiCO]

I always thought that these particular commandments were in response (for lack of a better word) to the Egyptian and Babylonian belief systems, who did worship multiple gods and made statues and painting of them. God was telling the Isrealites not to worship them, not because they were real gods and godesses, but because they were false gods (non-exsistant gods).

 

I know that's a popular interpretation, but the commanment isn't "Don't worship false gods."

 

I'm interested in what Lovedtodeath has to say. She seems to be much more knowledgable in biblical matters than me.

[jonesloonybin]

How 'bout the first two commandments?

1. You shall have no other gods before me.

2. You shall not make for yourself any carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate me, but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.

Pretty clear to me that Yahweh knows there are other gods and doesn't want his followers to recognize them.

 

 

Does that include pictures of your children? I am really confused by this:

 

any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.

 

What about dolls? Or stuffed animals? Or your children drawing pictures of animals?

 

Thanks

[PiCO]

Does that include pictures of your children? I am really confused by this:

 

any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.

 

What about dolls? Or stuffed animals? Or your children drawing pictures of animals?

 

Thanks

 

He also says "You shall not bow down to them nor serve them." I think most people interpret this commandment to mean you can't worship idols.

 

I'm sure there are extreme branches of Christianity where you can't have any likenesses, but obviously this is open to interpretation.

[Mom-ninja.]

I don't have an answer to your question. I was just wondering, is this a common thing to run into? People who are witches & paegons? I guess I'm really sheltered or something.

 

As others have said, you proably just don't know that you've run into them. Pagans usually tend to be private. Why? Because accurate knowledge of what Paganism really is not widely known.

 

Many people just don't want to deal with having to explain and then defend their beliefs. By defend I mean having to get people to stop trying to convert them for the most part. It's also no fun to be viewed and treated as if you are the devil in disguise out to destroy everyone. It simply becomes exhausting.

 

Some of the posts give an example of this. The posts were not rude at all, but simply show that the first thought for many is that Pagans worship the devil and believe in Harry Potter magic. The discussions here have been great and respectful, but it's not like that always.

 

As Firefly pointed out, prejudice runs deep.

 

I won't even comment on the other thread linked here.

[Paula in PA]

Does that include pictures of your children? I am really confused by this:

 

any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.

 

What about dolls? Or stuffed animals? Or your children drawing pictures of animals?

 

Thanks

 

See, I would take this to mean not to create images of any spiritual being/god/goddess: 'in heaven above' could be Zeus, 'in the earth beneath' could be Hades, 'in the water under the earth' could be Posiden (used Greek gods as I remember them best :tongue_smilie:). But that's just my personal interpretation of it. YMMV :)

[Paula in PA]

As others have said, you proably just don't know that you've run into them. Pagans usually tend to be private. Why? Because accurate knowledge of what Paganism really is not widely known.

 

Many people just don't want to deal with having to explain and then defend their beliefs. By defend I mean having to get people to stop trying to convert them for the most part. It's also no fun to be viewed and treated as if you are the devil in disguise out to destroy everyone. It simply becomes exhausting.

 

Some of the posts give an example of this. The posts were not rude at all, but simply show that the first thought for many is that Pagans worship the devil and believe in Harry Potter magic. The discussions here have been great and respectful, but it's not like that always.

 

As Firefly pointed out, prejudice runs deep.

 

I won't even comment on the other thread linked here.

 

:iagree: It's taken me a very long time to be completely open about my beliefs here and elsewhere because of this.

[Storm Bay]

No, I get the literal meaning of the words. What I don't understand is why one would "witness" if one weren't trying to convert?

 

 

It's fairly simple, although even many Christians confuse this and think that they have to convert people. The Bible instructs Christians to proclaim the gospel (good news, usually what God's done for you), but it's to find those who want it, not to convince those who don't. Basically, that people can't hear unless someone speaks.

 

But most of my friends and I are out there just living life and getting to know people--we can see when the doors open to speak, and do so.

 

But I can see why you and others would confuse these, because I've met some pretty pushy people who were out there. Turns even me off at times, and I believe the Bible (not all of it is literal, of course, as there are figures of speech, etc). I've even had a few other Christians try to recruit me for their denomination.

 

As for the who is the Christian God question, the Bible defines one God 3 ways--Holy Spirt, love and light. Anything else is just what people decide.

 

And, yes, it does talk about other gods, and as Spy Car mentioned, that's fodder for a different thread, albeit one likely to become heated.

[melissel]

I am saying two things... some natural doctors do things that we do not understand because they are based in energy manipulation, but they are not Witches. And... some doctors do in fact do the exact same thing that Witches do. In light of that fact and my belief system, (and I think the belief system of the OP) I have found it necessary to be very picky about which doctors I go to.

 

Great thread! I'm learning so much here (though I'm supposed to be working :blushing:).

 

Carmen, do you believe that Western doctors know every single there is to know about the body--that nothing new could possibly be learned from healers in other cultures? Couldn't someone from another culture who'd never come across, say, Tylenol assume that the relief it provides is based on some kind of mystical energy manipulation? How is a belief in energy manipulation different from, for example, a belief that the work of a prayer circle could help heal someone of cancer? I've seen an increasing number of articles attesting to the power of prayer in making great changes in people's lives. I'm not really sure how that would be any different.

[Katrina]

I know that's a popular interpretation, but the commanment isn't "Don't worship false gods."

 

I'm interested in what Lovedtodeath has to say. She seems to be much more knowledgable in biblical matters than me.

 

Okay, then explain to me. (I hope I'm not hijacking this thread here.) I was raised Mormon, who do believe in the existance of other gods, but just in other galaxies far, far away. Mormons always used the above passages to show that God acknowledged other real Gods, but for our purposes, we were to only worship Him because he was OUR one and true God. Other Christians argued this point with me over and over about how there was just ONE God and He was the supreme creator of EVERYTHING and that the existance of more than one God was purely unbiblical. Now your saying, as a Christian, that there are more than our Heavenly Father?

 

I'm just really confused! :confused1:

Edited January 30, 2009 by Katrina

[melissel]

I run into people all the time that have been introduced to God, but do not know who He is. For example: His personality is completely contrary to the idea of a burning hell, and He is not three in one. He does not take children away from parents because he wants them in heaven.

 

I think there are many Christians who would disagree with you here. Who gets to decide which interpretation is correct, or which interpretation is the "original" interpretation?

 

These are ideas that have been introduced into Christianity by men. Jesus and Paul foretold that there would be a time when the truth about God would be obscurred by false teachers entering the congregation. So they have not really been introduced to God, but rather a mistaken idea of Him.

 

As I understand it, men have been the ones translating many, many versions of the bible for thousands of years. How do we know that what we believe to be truth from the Bible isn't an accident of mistranslation or an ambiguous passage translated based on the translator's personal beliefs? Who can claim to hold the ultimate truth about who God is, when our documents about him have been passed through time via a historical version of the "telephone" game? Wouldn't the people who believe in a hellfire and brimstone God say that you are actually the one who is mistaken about His true nature?

 

Of course, I have to add the disclaimer that I'm not asking to be snarky. I have no access at all to people smart and educated enough to really discuss this kind of thing in real life, so I have to ask here. These are some of the questions that have plagued me my whole life. Even my mom, who is a very strong Christian, is not in any position to answer the questions I've always pondered!

 

Thanks for bearing with me :D

[Lovedtodeath]

Great thread! I'm learning so much here (though I'm supposed to be working :blushing:).

 

Carmen, do you believe that Western doctors know every single there is to know about the body--that nothing new could possibly be learned from healers in other cultures? Couldn't someone from another culture who'd never come across, say, Tylenol assume that the relief it provides is based on some kind of mystical energy manipulation? How is a belief in energy manipulation different from, for example, a belief that the work of a prayer circle could help heal someone of cancer? I've seen an increasing number of articles attesting to the power of prayer in making great changes in people's lives. I'm not really sure how that would be any different.

No, in fact, I think most western doctors do a terrible job. I have had diagnostic and therapetic procedures that would be considered Eastern (lik accupuncture) work much better. Therefore I greatly believe that we do have an energy meridian network, and I'll bet all other living things do as well. But as a Christian, I follow the scriptures that condemn practicers of magic and divination. So what I am saying is that it has been difficult for some, including myself, to find the differences. Or there also may be a doctor who uses the acceptable forms of energy manipulation, so you think they are OK, then you are in for an appointment and they pull something out that would be unacceptable.

 

And I have mused a bit about that energy network being "the breath of life" or "the spirit" spoken of in the scriptures. But that is my own musing that I really shouldn't get into and certainly not preaching, as there is no basis for me to say this.

[asta]

I think a very important thing to remember when discussing Christianity, Islam, and any other "mainstream" religion is that history is written by the winners. And it is re-written by the next set of winners.

 

The "bible" as it is known today is not the same as the dead sea scrolls. Even the Catholic church acknowledges that "not all of the books" made it into the bible - when you're trying to get a message out, editing is your friend.

 

The Koran was originally an oral history (given to Muhammed by Allah), that was only much later put to paper. To this day, a person is not considered to have "really" read the Koran unless they read it in Arabic. Many people who speak Arabic can not read it. That leaves that holy book open to editing as well (not internationally, but certainly on a local level).

 

As many posters have already written, "Paganism" has many definitions, and is thus endlessly open to editing.

 

I say grab ahold of whatever belief system will make you a better person, and don't worry about converting/witnessing/condemning anyone who doesn't hold the same beliefs. Because in the end, does anyone really believe that whatever/whomever came up with this great experiment called humanity didn't engineer in all of the different belief systems? It is only logical that all roads lead to the same place.

 

 

asta

[Night Elf]

I run into people all the time that have been introduced to God, but do not know who He is. For example: His personality is completely contrary to the idea of a burning hell, and He is not three in one. He does not take children away from parents because he wants them in heaven. These are ideas that have been introduced into Christianity by men. Jesus and Paul foretold that there would be a time when the truth about God would be obscurred by false teachers entering the congregation. So they have not really been introduced to God, but rather a mistaken idea of Him.

 

Ah. So what you're saying is that not all Christians and/or Christian churches preach the correct message? This is what I believe as well. However, I don't believe the Bible is the infallible Word because it's been written, rewritten, and modified by men. I'm not sure we even have the original message that might have been put forth in the first place. I believe the Bible has been altered in a very subtle, wily fashion to take people away from the true message. I am a Theist, but not a Christian.

[Jugglin'5]

Okay, then explain to me. (I hope I'm not hijacking this thread here.) I was raised Mormon, who do believe in the existance of other gods, but just in other galaxies far, far away. Mormons always used the above passages to show that God acknowledged other real Gods, but for our purposes, we were to only worship Him because he was OUR one and true God. Other Christians argued this point with me over and over about how there was just ONE God and He was the supreme creator of EVERYTHING and that the existance of more than one God was purely unbiblical. Now your saying, as a Christian, that there are more than our Heavenly Father?

 

I'm just really confused! :confused1:

 

 

One traditional, yet not universal, Christian belief about this, is that the pagan gods were inspired by actual demons. So there were other "gods", but they were fallen angels originally created by the Triune God (Yahweh). They had some local power, but were ultimately powerless in the face of the true God. So in one sense there were other "gods", and one sense in which there were not. For instance:

 

 

 

Deuteronomy 32:16-18 (New International Version)

 

 

16 They made him jealous with their foreign gods

and angered him with their detestable idols.

17 They sacrificed to demons, which are not God—

gods they had not known,

gods that recently appeared,

gods your fathers did not fear.

18 You deserted the Rock, who fathered you;

you forgot the God who gave you birth.

 

 

Psalm 106:36-38 (New International Version)

 

 

36 They worshiped their idols,

which became a snare to them.

37 They sacrificed their sons

and their daughters to demons.

38 They shed innocent blood,

the blood of their sons and daughters,

whom they sacrificed to the idols of Canaan,

and the land was desecrated by their blood.

 

 

 

 

Part of the establishment of Jesus' claim to Messiahship was His ability to cast out demons. this was a huge part of his ministry and was a demonstration of His Lordship over everything.

 

 

 

I am not interested in arguing with anyone about whether any of this is true, I just wanted to put out what I believe to be the most common Christian understanding of the "other gods" issue.

[lionfamily1999]

Hey Kelli,

 

Again, I'm very curious so please bare with me. It sounds to me, and I'm trying to paraphrase, that witches want pretty much the same things we as Christians do, only they worship gods and goddesses, not our Heavenly Father. ...

:banghead:

I want to give you the benefit of the doubt. I do. This, however, comes off as very, very holier than thou. As a Christian, this sort of soapbox preaching embarrasses me.

There are Christian pagans.

What?!?

Please explain (I can't find a smily for this, but imagine, if you will, puppy dog eyes)

As others have said, you proably just don't know that you've run into them. Pagans usually tend to be private. Why? Because accurate knowledge of what Paganism really is not widely known.

 

Many people just don't want to deal with having to explain and then defend their beliefs. By defend I mean having to get people to stop trying to convert them for the most part. It's also no fun to be viewed and treated as if you are the devil in disguise out to destroy everyone. It simply becomes exhausting.

 

The same can be said for many Christians, of course, you may not have heard of them, they're too busy ducking.

Mormons always used the above passages to show that God acknowledged other real Gods, but for our purposes, we were to only worship Him because he was OUR one and true God. Other Christians argued this point with me over and over about how there was just ONE God and He was the supreme creator of EVERYTHING and that the existance of more than one God was purely unbiblical.

My understanding is that God is the one TRUE God and any others are imposters (for lack of a better word).

 

Editing by moi, to make it shorter and to the point :)

[Lovedtodeath]

I think there are many Christians who would disagree with you here. Who gets to decide which interpretation is correct, or which interpretation is the "original" interpretation?

 

As I understand it, men have been the ones translating many, many versions of the bible for thousands of years. How do we know that what we believe to be truth from the Bible isn't an accident of mistranslation or an ambiguous passage translated based on the translator's personal beliefs? Who can claim to hold the ultimate truth about who God is, when our documents about him have been passed through time via a historical version of the "telephone" game? Wouldn't the people who believe in a hellfire and brimstone God say that you are actually the one who is mistaken about His true nature?

 

Of course, I have to add the disclaimer that I'm not asking to be snarky. I have no access at all to people smart and educated enough to really discuss this kind of thing in real life, so I have to ask here. These are some of the questions that have plagued me my whole life. Even my mom, who is a very strong Christian, is not in any position to answer the questions I've always pondered!

 

Thanks for bearing with me :D

 

God's Holy Spirit has protected the Bible for centuries. Many people and nations have tried to stamp out the Jews and the Christians and they have been unsuccessful. Take a look at the classical writings of Ancient Greece and Rome as a contrast. There were no genocide attempts against the Greeks or Romans, yet their literature has not been so well preserved. Of the 142 books of the Roman history of Livy (59 B.C.- A.D. 17) only 35 survive, some of which are in fragments. I am sure that my Bible is from God and accurate because I have many more examples such as this. Archeology has many times proven the Bible was true such as in the case of the kings of Babylon, in which the Bible was contested until a new stone was found. I have a book called "The Bible-- God's word or man's?" that goes into the details of the fallibility of scribes, etc. etc. I have another book that gets into the details of the validity of the Bible cannon. (Each book is analyzed.)

 

When older scrolls are found, they are compared to what we have. The translation of the Bible that I use has been found to be the most accurate, it has been translated from the oldest scrolls and the oldest languages. You may be interested in a book called: "TRUTH IN TRANSLATION: ACCURACY AND BIAS IN ENGLISH TRANSLATIONS OF THE NEW TESTAMENT"

Author: Jason David BeDuhn

 

Then I have many references that get into individual scriptures and their interpetation, and I am well aware of the differing viewpoints on hell, etc. but we use scripture to explain scripture. For example, one scripture states "a day for a year" and that is used for a better understanding of prophecy. Another states, "Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death." Revelation 20:14 (New International Version). This is the tip of the iceberg, but an example that I thought might explain my previous statements.

 

There are passages that are interpeted incorrectly and a couple that were inserted outright, but these have been rooted out. There is the Greek Interlinear version of the Bible that helps a great deal in this area.

 

Using your question as a reason to not bother is what some do, but this is not what Jesus wants, for he said, "This means everlasting life, their taking in knowledge of you, the only true God, and of the one whom you sent forth, Jesus Christ." John 17:3 and, "those worshiping him must worship with ...truth." John 7:24

Feel free to PM me for more details.

 

ETA: Why does a thumbs down keep getting put on my posts that I choose quick reply to? I didn't do it.

Edited January 30, 2009 by Lovedtodeath

[Parrothead]

never mind.

[Melinda in VT]

Okay, then explain to me. (I hope I'm not hijacking this thread here.) I was raised Mormon, who do believe in the existance of other gods, but just in other galaxies far, far away. Mormons always used the above passages to show that God acknowledged other real Gods, but for our purposes, we were to only worship Him because he was OUR one and true God. Other Christians argued this point with me over and over about how there was just ONE God and He was the supreme creator of EVERYTHING and that the existance of more than one God was purely unbiblical. Now your saying, as a Christian, that there are more than our Heavenly Father?

 

I'm just really confused! :confused1:

 

(bolding mine)

 

Katrina, I was raised Mormon too, but I've never heard that argument from a Mormon before. (That those Old Testament verses showed God acknowledged other gods.) I'm not arguing that you didn't hear it growing up, just saying that I don't think it is a universal interpretation within Mormonism. (I'm not arguing the belief in other gods, just the use of those scriptures to prove it.)

 

Hmm. I have a feeling that was clear as mud.

[melissel]

God's Holy Spirit has protected the Bible for centuries. Many people and nations have tried to stamp out the Jews and the Christians and they have been unsuccessful. Take a look at the classical writings of Ancient Greece and Rome as a contrast. There were no genocide attempts against the Greeks or Romans, yet their literature has not been so well preserved. Of the 142 books of the Roman history of Livy (59 B.C.- A.D. 17) only 35 survive, some of which are in fragments. I am sure that my Bible is from God and accurate because I have many more examples such as this. Archeology has many times proven the Bible was true such as in the case of the kings of Babylon, in which the Bible was contested until a new stone was found. I have a book called "The Bible-- God's word or man's?" that goes into the details of the fallibility of scribes, etc. etc. I have another book that gets into the details of the validity of the Bible cannon. (Each book is analyzed.)

 

When older scrolls are found, they are compared to what we have. The translation of the Bible that I use has been found to be the most accurate, it has been translated from the oldest scrolls and the oldest languages. You may be interested in a book called: "TRUTH IN TRANSLATION: ACCURACY AND BIAS IN ENGLISH TRANSLATIONS OF THE NEW TESTAMENT"

Author: Jason David BeDuhn

 

Then I have many references that get into individual scriptures and their interpetation, and I am well aware of the differing viewpoints on hell, etc. but we use scripture to explain scripture. For example, one scripture states "a day for a year" and that is used for a better understanding of prophecy. Another states, "Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death." Revelation 20:14 (New International Version). This is the tip of the iceberg, but an example that I thought might explain my previous statements.

 

There are passages that are interpeted incorrectly and a couple that were inserted outright, but these have been rooted out. There is the Greek Interlinear version of the Bible that helps a great deal in this area.

 

Using your question as a reason to not bother is what some do, but this is not what Jesus wants, for he said, "This means everlasting life, their taking in knowledge of you, the only true God, and of the one whom you sent forth, Jesus Christ." John 17:3 and, "those worshiping him must worship with ...truth." John 7:24

Feel free to PM me for more details.

 

ETA: Why does a thumbs down keep getting put on my posts that I choose quick reply to? I didn't do it.

 

Wow! Thanks for all that. Theology has always fascinated me utterly, but I find the idea of studying it so overwhelming. I don't identify with any faith, yet when I travel, the first places I'm drawn to are places of worship. Thanks for the book recs too!

[runninmommy]

How 'bout the first two commandments?

 

1. You shall have no other gods before me.

2. You shall not make for yourself any carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate me, but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.

Pretty clear to me that Yahweh knows there are other gods and doesn't want his followers to recognize them.

 

I am familiar with these scriptures but I don't take that to mean literal Gods. (*I think*)It means placing other things, ambitions, statues Above God. Not that there are other Gods mentioned in the bible.

[HeathenMom]

sorry to jump in here...i really only lurk for info on this board, but you've drawn me out of my shell with this topic today. there is one brand of paganism that hasn't been touched upon and it's the type my family and i practice.

 

there are some pagans who believe that people had a spiritual path before the rise of Christianity and that spiritual path was the natural, organic expression of our soul.

 

pagans are the 'people of the country'. i prefer Heathen, we are the 'people of the hearth' and our focus is on the nature's cycles, family, the gods and goddesses (which are found in myth and generally archetypical figures as opposed to literal beings), and a return to simple, natural ways that are beneficial to our folk soul. Heathens are pagan, but most pagans aren't Heathen.

 

there is no 'satan' involved. the only magic you'll find is the type that occurs when you awaken to the natural world with yourself as an integral part of it.

 

:001_smile:

thanks for letting me have my .02

[Katrina]

(bolding mine)

 

Katrina, I was raised Mormon too, but I've never heard that argument from a Mormon before. (That those Old Testament verses showed God acknowledged other gods.) I'm not arguing that you didn't hear it growing up, just saying that I don't think it is a universal interpretation within Mormonism. (I'm not arguing the belief in other gods, just the use of those scriptures to prove it.)

 

Hmm. I have a feeling that was clear as mud.

 

How funny, cause I'm pretty sure that's what I remember. I know Mormons also used those verses to talk about idolatry as well. But, I'm not trying to prove or disprove Mormonism, but just wanting to clarify what the other posters meant. This is actually a rather interesting discussion. :001_smile:

[lionfamily1999]

I think that depends on how one defines a Christian, and some people believe that some of the Christian gospels come from Pagan mythology.

 

some sites that discuss this:

 

http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_jcpa.htm

 

and

 

http://www.twpt.com/christianpagan.htm

Strictly, someone who believes in Jesus Christ as the son of God, that he died for your/our sins and was ressurected, etc...

(having now read the links, I'm apparently too exclusive in my definition of Christian... simply a follower of the teachings of Christ, not necessarily someone that believes him to be the redeemer, etc.)

I'll check the links, thanks!

 

 

Okay, according to the second site (the first asked me adopt a child?!? I didn't know where I should go from there ;) ); Christianity and paganism are mutually exclusive, or, the definition of pagan or heathen relies upon that person NOT being a Christian... sort of like a Christian satanist, maybe? Christianity is 'used' by pagans/heathens in order to 'pass' in a culture where they would face ridicule/etc. Thanks for the links... now, however, I'm more confused than ever.

Edited January 30, 2009 by lionfamily1999

[Katrina]

One traditional' date=' yet not universal, Christian belief about this, is that the pagan gods were inspired by actual demons. So there were other "gods", but they were fallen angels originally created by the Triune God (Yahweh). They had some local power, but were ultimately powerless in the face of the true God. So in one sense there were other "gods", and one sense in which there were not. [/quote']

 

 

Okay, thanks for explaining that. That threw me for a loop there. :D

[Lovedtodeath]

What I said about other gods:

 

Sorry, I had family responsibilities to attend to and I had to search for this information.

 

Moses and Aaron went to see Phar´aoh again. This time they did a miracle. Aaron threw down his stick, and it became a big snake. But Phar´aoh’s wise men also threw down sticks, and snakes appeared. Phar'aoh's wise men also turned cups of water into blood. I was taught that Egyptian gods performed these miracles.

 

They must be demons or devils, who are responsible for what the Bible calls "lying divination" and "lying signs and wonders."—Ezek. 13:6, 7, 9; 2 Thess. 2:9 They will perform good works in order to mislead people away from the True God.

 

I have more that I can share via PM.

Edited January 31, 2009 by Lovedtodeath

[Lovedtodeath]

ETA: I know this is way off from the OP, but it happens all the time, for example, someone asks about WRTR and we end up with 3 pages about AAS, or dyslexia.

 

Melissa,

 

The Bible—God’s Word or Man’s? can be found here. It contains the information in my previous post about scribing and archeology, etc.

 

This is the book that explains why each book of the Bible cannon is incuded.

 

This book takes topics (like heaven, for example) and lists scriptures that explain the topic. What I really like about it is that it does not add commentary, it simply lists the scriptures and allows the reader to draw their conclusions from that.

 

Best Wishes,

Edited January 31, 2009 by Lovedtodeath

[LaxMom]

Originally Posted by Parrothead

There are Christian pagans.

What?!?

Please explain (I can't find a smily for this, but imagine, if you will, puppy dog eyes)

 

I believe she is referring to the Christian Gnostics. Just as Kabbalah is Jewish Gnosticism, there are sects of Christian Gnostics who believe the divine is within humans (Holy Spirit) and only through knowledge can this be embraced and developed. They would be, broadly, looked at as heretics by mainstream Protestants, but I'm not sure they actually fall under "Pagan". Gnostics do include some Pagan sects, and also some branches that do not fall under anything else. Plato was a Gnostic.

 

Here is a better explanation than I can provide.

 

I have never heard Hinduism, Buddhism, etc. included under the umbrella of Paganism. I think this is a definition based upon a Christian perspective, essentially lumping all religions that do not acknowledge the same deity into the category of Pagan as "other", akin to heresy.

 

Also, on the part of non-believers maybe getting their errant information regarding God/Jesus from movies... really? I mean, seriously? Because I'm pretty sure that the question was asked whether Pagans (or Wiccans or Witches) really believed in Harry Potter in this discussion. Given the play Christian theology is given in our culture, and the fact that there is great debate among Christians as to who is a "real" Christian, it seems to me that we have as much information as you, and the ignorant media portrayal of religion definitely has a field day with any belief system outside the "mainstream", which is, of course, why people have such bizarre information about Pagans. ;)

 

(And, no, as mentioned, the devil is a product of Christianity. We don't worship one.)

[Parrothead]

I believe she is referring to the Christian Gnostics. Just as Kabbalah is Jewish Gnosticism, there are sects of Christian Gnostics who believe the divine is within humans (Holy Spirit) and only through knowledge can this be embraced and developed. They would be, broadly, looked at as heretics by mainstream Protestants, but I'm not sure they actually fall under "Pagan". Gnostics do include some Pagan sects, and also some branches that do not fall under anything else. Plato was a Gnostic.

 

Here is a better explanation than I can provide.

 

 

Not only the Gnostics, there are some Christian Pagans that are just that. Pagans that believe Jesus is The Christ. They aren't heard from too often. The Christians look at them as not true believers because of their inclusion of the Goddess and the Pagans don't look at them as true Pagans because of their belief in Jesus.

[LaxMom]

Not only the Gnostics, there are some Christian Pagans that are just that. Pagans that believe Jesus is The Christ. They aren't heard from too often. The Christians look at them as not true believers because of their inclusion of the Goddess and the Pagans don't look at them as true Pagans because of their belief in Jesus.

 

Really? I have never heard of Pagans rejecting anyone. How rude. Trotting off now to educate myself on Christian Pagans. ;)

[jonesloonybin]

I always thought that pagan meant Pre-christian. So that would include any religion that date to pre-christian times. Is that true.

 

I have to say this thread has been fascinating and very informational.

[Parrothead]

I always thought that pagan meant Pre-christian. So that would include any religion that date to pre-christian times. Is that true.

 

I have to say this thread has been fascinating and very informational.

 

For the true meaning of the word, what it encompassed then and does now check the first couple paragraphs of this article at Wiki.

[CAMom]

Here's a brief rundown on what many Neopagans believe completely stolen and hacked up from documents that run up and down the religious community by Isaac Bonewits (whose books are very fascinating and totally worth asking your library to get for you):

 

Thank you for posting this. I am very much a Christian but I think what you posted lines up, for the most part, with my mom's beliefs and I feel like I know her a little better now. She's made "religion" a taboo subject between us.:)

[jonesloonybin]

For the true meaning of the word, what it encompassed then and does now check the first couple paragraphs of this article at Wiki.

 

Hey, thanks. That was really helpful. :001_smile:

[datmama4]

He also says "You shall not bow down to them nor serve them." I think most people interpret this commandment to mean you can't worship idols.

 

I'm sure there are extreme branches of Christianity where you can't have any likenesses, but obviously this is open to interpretation.

 

An acquaintance of mine who is a Jehovah's Witness explained to me that's why the JW's did not celebrate birthdays and the like: they felt it was exalting a person to a position of being worshipped, in a sense. I'm sure I'm not paraphrasing her well, but that was the gist of it -- if we recognize you and "praise" your accomplishment/birthday/etc., then we are making an idol of you.

 

I respectfully disagreed with her, but at least I knew the reason why they had such a practice.

[Audrey]

I just read through this thread and all of the other pagans, neopagans, witches and heathen have already said much of what I'd have to say.

 

The only thing I'd like to re-iterate/add is that not all witches are Wiccans. It is an understandably common misconception, though.

 

Also, not all witches worship gods and/or goddesses. I am a witch and I worship no gods nor goddesses. If I "worship" anything, it is Nature itself. Witches come in all creeds and forms. :001_smile:

[JennifersLost]

I actually do know Christian Pagans....

 

By that I mean Pagans who do equate Jesus as the son of God and as divine, rather than the Pagans who feel he was a human prophet.

[KarenNC]

I actually do know Christian Pagans....

 

By that I mean Pagans who do equate Jesus as the son of God and as divine, rather than the Pagans who feel he was a human prophet.

 

Out of curiosity, do they consider him *the* son of *the* God, *a* son of *the* God or *a* son of *a* God? These are all very different viewpoints theologically.

 

The Pagans I've encountered over the years who included Jesus as part of their worship were more of the camp that Jesus is divine and *a* God, included in their worship among a pantheon of Gods or that Jesus is just one face/archetype/avatar of an overall divinity in the same way that any other named God or Goddess might be, rather than that He is the Son of God (singular on both counts, as is taught by mainstream Christianity). Admittedly my sample is small and the community is wide and certainly varied.

 

Another term to search is "Christopagan" or "Christo-Pagan". Basically not someone that your average orthodox (small-o ;)) Christian is going to see as a "real" Christian, but then there are lots of folks out there who self-identify as Christian in some way that mainstream Christianity doesn't recognize as "really" Christian. It's rather similar to the way that I've seen "real" Jews refer to those who self-identify as Messianic Jews, ie as "really Christians pretending to be Jewish".;)

[Audrey]

I actually do know Christian Pagans....

 

By that I mean Pagans who do equate Jesus as the son of God and as divine, rather than the Pagans who feel he was a human prophet.

 

I know a few who call themselves Christian Wiccans. I can't speak to what that exactly entails, but I'm told it is apparently a growing sect of Wicca.

[KarenNC]

Okay, according to the second site (the first asked me adopt a child?!? I didn't know where I should go from there ;) );

 

Try the first link again, worked fine for me.

 

Christianity and paganism are mutually exclusive, or, the definition of pagan or heathen relies upon that person NOT being a Christian... sort of like a Christian satanist, maybe? Christianity is 'used' by pagans/heathens in order to 'pass' in a culture where they would face ridicule/etc. Thanks for the links... now, however, I'm more confused than ever.

 

Have to disagree. Someone who is trying to "pass" for these reasons is *not* going to refer to themselves as anything other than "Christian", not if they are at all serious about it and certainly not as a "Christian Pagan". Now I'm not one, and honestly tend to scratch my head over the concept (which I do about many versions of religions, including various types of Christianity and various religions that fall under the Neopagan umbrella), but from what I've seen, it's not a matter of trying to "pass"--rather the opposite. They get flak from both sides, as do the Messianic Jews.

 

From a Christian perspective, the term pagan or heathen relies on that person not being a Christian. Here I use lowercase because I am referring to adjectives describing a person rather than the proper nouns that denote specific religious traditions. From the viewpoint of a Pagan or Heathen (someone who practices a specific faith, hence the capitalization of a proper noun), that definition depends no more on them "not being a Christian" than the definition of "Hindu" or "Buddhist" or "Jew" or "Muslim" depends on someone "not being a Christian" than it would for a convert from any religion. They are indeed "not Christian" but that is not their primary defining characteristic, simply a factual by-product, just as being Christian is not defined by being "not Jewish"--at least at this stage of the game;).

 

Admittedly, most Neopagan religions as they exist in the US today are young religions, formed primarily of converts, so there is going to be that conversion baggage, if you will, for many. Part of this includes defining oneself as "not" whatever one had been, though this usually lessens in time. In the first century of the early Church, the "not Jewish" or "not Roman" or "not Greek" part was a much bigger part of the way in which Christians were viewed because most of the members were converts from one of these groups.

[lionfamily1999]

Try the first link again, worked fine for me.

 

 

 

Have to disagree. Someone who is trying to "pass" for these reasons is *not* going to refer to themselves as anything other than "Christian", not if they are at all serious about it and certainly not as a "Christian Pagan". Now I'm not one, and honestly tend to scratch my head over the concept (which I do about many versions of religions, including various types of Christianity and various religions that fall under the Neopagan umbrella), but from what I've seen, it's not a matter of trying to "pass"--rather the opposite. They get flak from both sides, as do the Messianic Jews.

 

From a Christian perspective, the term pagan or heathen relies on that person not being a Christian. Here I use lowercase because I am referring to adjectives describing a person rather than the proper nouns that denote specific religious traditions. From the viewpoint of a Pagan or Heathen (someone who practices a specific faith, hence the capitalization of a proper noun), that definition depends no more on them "not being a Christian" than the definition of "Hindu" or "Buddhist" or "Jew" or "Muslim" depends on someone "not being a Christian" than it would for a convert from any religion. They are indeed "not Christian" but that is not their primary defining characteristic, simply a factual by-product, just as being Christian is not defined by being "not Jewish"--at least at this stage of the game;).

 

Admittedly, most Neopagan religions as they exist in the US today are young religions, formed primarily of converts, so there is going to be that conversion baggage, if you will, for many. Part of this includes defining oneself as "not" whatever one had been, though this usually lessens in time. In the first century of the early Church, the "not Jewish" or "not Roman" or "not Greek" part was a much bigger part of the way in which Christians were viewed because most of the members were converts from one of these groups.

That was the definition I got from the second link. I was hopeing for a better explanation. The whole thing is really confusing, the second link said that Christian Pagan or Christian Heathen were oxymorons, because the definition of Pagan and Heathen depended upon that person not being a Christian. His explanation was that Heathens and Pagans might be using the term "Christian" to pass in a world that would not accept them as Pagans or Heathens.

 

If you have a link to Christian Heathens or Pagans, I would love to see it. I've believed (my entire life) that there were mysteries, energies, etc., but I've always believed they were placed there by God for us to use. I genuinely want to know, because it interests me on a personal level.

[PiCO]

Now your saying, as a Christian, that there are more than our Heavenly Father?

 

Just to clarify, Katrina, I am not a Christian. I have read the bible, and that is my interpretation.

[Lovedtodeath]

Ah. So what you're saying is that not all Christians and/or Christian churches preach the correct message? This is what I believe as well. However, I don't believe the Bible is the infallible Word because it's been written, rewritten, and modified by men. I'm not sure we even have the original message that might have been put forth in the first place. I believe the Bible has been altered in a very subtle, wily fashion to take people away from the true message. I am a Theist, but not a Christian.

And many who do not believe the Bible to be true use these false teachings of the Church to argue against the Bible. Which is really a shame, since they are not found in the Bible. I also believe the Bible has been altered in a very subtle, wily fashion to take people away from the true message. But, there are ways of getting to the truth, as I have brought out in my previous posts.

 

sorry to jump in here...i really only lurk for info on this board, but you've drawn me out of my shell with this topic today. there is one brand of paganism that hasn't been touched upon and it's the type my family and i practice.

 

there are some pagans who believe that people had a spiritual path before the rise of Christianity and that spiritual path was the natural, organic expression of our soul.

 

pagans are the 'people of the country'. i prefer Heathen, we are the 'people of the hearth' and our focus is on the nature's cycles, family, the gods and goddesses (which are found in myth and generally archetypical figures as opposed to literal beings), and a return to simple, natural ways that are beneficial to our folk soul. Heathens are pagan, but most pagans aren't Heathen.

 

there is no 'satan' involved. the only magic you'll find is the type that occurs when you awaken to the natural world with yourself as an integral part of it.

 

:001_smile:

thanks for letting me have my .02

I appreciate your input. Edited January 31, 2009 by Lovedtodeath