Another homeschooling article, this one about severe abuse

[Innisfree]

The boy at the center of this article was abused and murdered by his stepmother.  It’s awful. I hate it when this is the face of homeschooling, but it does happen, and the homeschooling can be a ruse to avoid detection. I’m not quoting the details of his abuse, or that of other children mentioned, but this is the basis premise of the article. 

Quote

Little research exists on the links between home schooling and child abuse. The few studies conducted in recent years have not shown that home-schooled children are at significantly greater risk of mistreatment than those who attend public, private or charter schools.

But the research also suggests that when abuse does occur in home-school families, it can escalate into especially severe forms — and that some parents exploit lax home education laws to avoid contact with social service agencies.

In 2014, a group of pediatricians published a study of more than two dozen tortured children treated at medical centers in Virginia, Texas, Wisconsin, Utah and Washington. Among the 17 victims old enough to attend school, eight were home-schooled.

https://wapo.st/3RnyVI2 (gifted)

[Janeway]

I do not like it when kids are simply being abused and not going to school, but the parents call it homeschooling. I do not believe abuse happens at a higher rate among real homeschoolers, but I do know that some abusers will neglect their children's education and not send them to school or keep them home to hide detection. That group of people should not be grouped with actual homeschoolers.

[Innisfree]

6 minutes ago, Janeway said:

I do not like it when kids are simply being abused and not going to school, but the parents call it homeschooling. I do not believe abuse happens at a higher rate among real homeschoolers, but I do know that some abusers will neglect their children's education and not send them to school or keep them home to hide detection. That group of people should not be grouped with actual homeschoolers.

The thing is, the world has no way to tell who is really teaching their kids and who is isolating and abusing them, especially if they’re in a state with no requirement of registration, testing, occasional contact with mandated reporters, or anything. Even after the cases discussed in this article, HSLDA argues for no oversight at all. I’ve homeschooled, as most of us have. I know testing, notification, and so on can be a pain. But in the face of abuse like this, I can’t possibly argue against some kind of regulation that gets the kids in touch with the outside world a couple of times a year.

[EKS]

10 minutes ago, Janeway said:

I do not like it when kids are simply being abused and not going to school, but the parents call it homeschooling. I do not believe abuse happens at a higher rate among real homeschoolers, but I do know that some abusers will neglect their children's education and not send them to school or keep them home to hide detection. That group of people should not be grouped with actual homeschoolers.

I agree with this, but the homeschool laws are a loophole that such parents can use to keep the children home legally. 

1 minute ago, Innisfree said:

I know testing, notification, and so on can be a pain. But in the face of abuse like this, I can’t possibly argue against some kind of regulation that gets the kids in touch with the outside world a couple of times a year.

This.  And perhaps more than a couple of times.  And then the law should be enforced.  

[Heartstrings]

If only attending public school was actually the safety mechanism people want it to be. If only public school kept kids from being abused or murdered by parents. I wish it worked that way. 

In reality there are plenty of kids in public school being abused at home. At least some of the time the school knows and try to help but are unable, or the kids go to foster care for a bit before being returned back home to the abuse.  Being around the foster care system teaches you that mandated reporters don’t do any good at all when our CPS system is the way it is.   Every teacher probably has a few stories about knowing about abuse and watching nothing be done.  

Abuse isn’t a homeschool issue, it’s a society issue. 

[PeterPan]

We could go through each state and see, but VA has notification laws that seem to include academic testing, etc. etc. That's a pretty middle of the road approach for states that do have requirements. Since that doesn't seem to stop the potential for abuse, I'm not sure what kind of legal structures you're advocating for. Also, 9 of the 17 (across five states) were NOT homeschooled and were therefore theoretically in higher observation settings where they could have gotten assistance, been noticed, whatever. If THAT LEVEL of scrutiny, being enrolled in a daily school (yes?) doesn't solve the issue, then again I don't see what level of homeschool scrutiny you're asking for. 

It's HORRIFIC that abuse is happening, but it seems to be happening in spite of the school type, in spite of access to reporting/assistance, etc. Maybe they could figure out what the connector REALLY is and address that. Is it mental health? Alcohol? What is the real conversation that needs to happen? 

 

[Carrie12345]

School doesn’t prevent abuse. Church doesn’t prevent abuse. Foster care doesn’t prevent abuse. Daycare doesn’t prevent abuse. Clubs/teams/activities don’t prevent abuse.

Abuse is terrible and needs to be addressed, but requiring systems where abuse is already present won’t end it.

[Heartstrings]

Pretending like public school is a savior also does nothing to protect 0-5 year olds, but we’re somehow uncomfortable with mandating under 5s be taken away from parents and required to be “protected” by a system.  If homeschool parents are suspect, shouldn’t all stay at home parents be?     It’s an interesting thought experiment.  There are no testing or notification requirements for 2 year olds, or 6 week olds to protect them from abuse.  

[EKS]

8 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

Also, 9 of the 17 (across five states) were NOT homeschooled and were therefore theoretically in higher observation settings where they could have gotten assistance, been noticed, whatever.

This observation does not negate the fact that the homeschoolers in this group were overrepresented by almost 12-fold.  If they were represented as they are in the K-12 population, there would have been between zero and one who were homeschooled.  This is a huge difference and extremely significant.

Edited December 2, 2023 by EKS

[Innisfree]

1 minute ago, PeterPan said:

We could go through each state and see, but VA has notification laws that seem to include academic testing, etc. etc.

The article focuses on kids in Michigan, which has no such requirements.

2 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

Since that doesn't seem to stop the potential for abuse, I'm not sure what kind of legal structures you're advocating for.

Not sure if this is addressed to me or not, but I’m not arguing for anything in particular. What I said was that I can’t in good conscience argue against some degree of oversight. I didn’t post the article to argue for anything, but because as a homeschooling community we need to be aware of the wider discussion and perceptions about homeschooling.

4 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

Also, 9 of the 17 (across five states) were NOT homeschooled and were therefore theoretically in higher observation settings where they could have gotten assistance, been noticed, whatever.

The percentage of (theoretically, as defined by their parents) homeschooled students in that group is way higher than it ought to be based on percentages homeschooling vs. attending brick and mortar schools. So, I think the numbers in this particular small sample support the people concerned about homeschooling without any regulation.

[Innisfree]

I’m not suggesting school prevents abuse. I’m saying we need to be aware of the wider discourse. Also I’m saying that arguing for no regulation at all, supporting the position of HSLDA, puts us on shaky ground.

At a minimum, homeschoolers need to be part of the wider conversation and explain the huge variety of ways legitimate homeschooling parents involve their kids in activities outside the home.

If we want homeschooling to thrive, we can’t let this sort of story be what outsiders primarily hear about homeschooling. And when people have concerns based on genuine cases like this, we need to listen before we react defensively.

Edited December 2, 2023 by Innisfree

[PeterPan]

9 minutes ago, EKS said:

This observation does not negate the fact that the homeschoolers in this group were overrepresented by almost 12-fold.  If they were represented as they are in the K-12 population, there would have been between zero and one who were homeschooled.  This is a huge difference and extremely significant.

So again, what kind of regulation or legal change are you advocating for? 

This is like saying drunk drivers with cars kill people and drunk people on trains kill less so everyone needs to take trains.

[PeterPan]

3 minutes ago, Innisfree said:

Also I’m saying that arguing for no regulation at all, supporting the position of HSLDA, puts us on shaky ground.

Do you have data to support that? Surely there are studies comparing child abuse rates in low regulation vs. higher regulation states. 

Some states are moving to decrease regulation for homeschooling, so it's not a static/done thing in our country. Are you saying those states have IGNORED data showing this is dangerous?

[Heartstrings]

Just now, Innisfree said:

I’m not suggesting school prevents abuse. I’m saying we need to be aware of the wider discourse. Also I’m saying that arguing for no regulation at all, supporting the position of HSLDA, puts us on shaky ground.

At a minimum, homeschoolers need to be part of the wider conversation and explain the huge variety of ways legitimate homeschooling parents involve their kids in activities outside the home.

If we want homeschooling to thrive, we can’t let this sort of story what outsiders primarily hear about homeschooling. And when people have concerns based on genuine cases like this, we need to listen before we react defensively.

I don’t think there’s much we can do though.  If a homeschooled child is abused it’s “The Face of Homeschooling” but a public school child being abused doesn’t even make the news.  It’s “us” against the entire media, we can’t win.   
 

In that study mentioned, 8 of 17 kids were homeschooled, 9 were public or private, but somehow that’s “proof” against homeschooling not public school.   We’ll never win against logic like that.  
 

The media portray what they want according to their own narrative.  Homeschool=abuse is part of their narrative.   

[PeterPan]

14 minutes ago, Innisfree said:

What I said was that I can’t in good conscience argue against some degree of oversight.

These are discussions that are being had because there are currently groups working to *decrease* homeschool regulation. So it's definitely a pertinent topic, and it should not be an *emotional* one or one based on *assumptions*. 

I'm not saying what the answer has to be on correlations, but it's illogical to make an an emotional appeal about the need for regulations without data to show it makes a difference. States are the seed bed of experimentation for ideas, so there is definitely data to be had on outcomes. 

[Heartstrings]

23 minutes ago, Innisfree said:

The article focuses on kids in Michigan, which has no such requirements

Where the article mentions the 2014 study it mentions a mix of high and low regulation states.  If kids in both VA and TX are being abused then the regulations probably serve no purpose with regards to abuse.   

Regulations should about education not preventing abuse.   We haven’t found a good way to prevent abuse.  Attending school 8 hours a day 5 days a week doesn’t prevent it, no homeschool regulation will either.

 Once we find the anti abuse magic bullet it should be applied evenly to all kids from the day they leave the hospital.  Conflating educational policy with abuse prevention is faulty thinking.  

Edited December 2, 2023 by Heartstrings

[EKS]

14 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

So again, what kind of regulation or legal change are you advocating for? 

My opinions about how homeschool regulations should be changed go well beyond preventing abuse.  In fact, the abuse problem is just a side issue, since I believe that the eight children in the study who were labeled as "homeschooled" would have simply been truant had the homeschooling laws required more of their parents.  Whether or not being truant would have gotten them on the radar of officials is open for debate.  It would not have here in WA (or at least in my district in WA).

 

Edited December 2, 2023 by EKS

[Heartstrings]

Just now, EKS said:

It would not have here in WA (or at least in my district in WA)

It wouldn’t in Arkansas where I am. I’ve seen Kids miss 60+ days with nothing happening.  

[EKS]

Just now, Heartstrings said:

It wouldn’t in Arkansas where I am. I’ve seen Kids miss 60+ days with nothing happening.  

I know a homeschooling family here who hasn't registered as homeschoolers in years (this is essentially the only regulation).  And it isn't as if they aren't on the radar of the local schools, as the kids have been enrolled part time on and off over the years.

[PeterPan]

Just now, EKS said:

My opinions about how regulations should be changed go well beyond preventing abuse.  In fact, the abuse problem is just a side issue, since I believe that the eight children in the study who were labeled as "homeschooled" would have simply been truant had the homeschooling laws required more of their parents.  Whether or not being truant would have gotten them on the radar of officials is open for debate.  It would not have here in WA (or at least in my district in WA).

 

That's interesting. Truancy seems like a hard thing to regulate and a mechanism like that would probably require the state to be very high regulation, like NY maybe? Wouldn't someone who is a terrible human just fraudulently mark the compliance paperwork? 

This is a side note, but I saw that the human trafficking assistance posters were REMOVED from our state's rest area restrooms. I was horrified, because I was so proud of the efforts our state had been making on human trafficking. Were the posters not working and not actually being effective? Is there some quiet effort to undermine the work to help those who are being trafficked? I don't know, but I think it's a similar issue. They were working to raise awareness, they made this big splash, and then they stop. Did the data show it didn't work or the issue went away (doubtful) or the funding ran out?

I don't see how you make state level policy changes without data. 

[PeterPan]

Just now, EKS said:

I know a homeschooling family here who hasn't registered as homeschoolers in years (this is essentially the only regulation).  And it isn't as if they aren't on the radar of the local schools, as the kids have been enrolled part time on and off over the years.

Isn't inconsistent enforcement the story of life? I'll bet we can all think of laws that are inconsistently enforced. We could even get concerned about and get politically engaged. Who would be the public office enforcing the laws you're saying are not enforced? Sheriff? School board? 

[EKS]

1 minute ago, PeterPan said:

I don't see how you make state level policy changes without data.

States make policy changes all the time without data.

[PeterPan]

Just now, EKS said:

States make policy changes all the time without data.

They hold hearings, people give testimony. Sure sometimes it's a more cynical process, but a lot of times it takes multiple years, lots of effort, testimony, etc. 

Like I said, some states are changing their homeschool regulation laws right now. This is not a static issue.

[Heartstrings]

1 minute ago, EKS said:

I know a homeschooling family here who hasn't registered as homeschoolers in years (this is essentially the only regulation).  And it isn't as if they aren't on the radar of the local schools, as the kids have been enrolled part time on and off over the years.

From personal  experience, Arkansas didn’t follow up when I moved and didn’t register the following year, but VA did.  I got a call from the truancy officer asking if had moved because she was at my old house and it looked empty.    

[Innisfree]

1 minute ago, PeterPan said:

These are discussions that are being had because there are currently groups working to *decrease* homeschool regulation. So it's definitely a pertinent topic, and it should not be an *emotional* one or one based on *assumptions*. 

Agreed. 

I posted the article because we need to be aware of what is being read in a newspaper with national reach.

I didn’t intend to get into a discussion about regulation.

Have you looked at the article? It absolutely will make a strong emotional impact on readers. The headline is “What homeschooling hides: a boy tortured and starved by his stepmom.” And, yes, that’s accurate in this case, though it’s also sensational.

My thought was essentially that in the face of this publicity, we would be well advised to bone up on data, as you suggest. Be prepared for this to be under discussion. I don’t think leaping into a defensive crouch is helpful, regardless of the merits of any position on regulation. Listen to what people are saying, and be prepared to question our own assumptions. Maybe the advocates of no increased regulation are on solid ground, but homeschoolers won’t win arguments by being reflexively anti-regulation.

Stepping out of this now, at least for the time being, as I’ve got to get other things done.

[EKS]

Just now, PeterPan said:

Who would be the public office enforcing the laws you're saying are not enforced?

In our state, it is apparently the juvenile court system in combination with the police.

[EKS]

27 minutes ago, Innisfree said:

I don’t think leaping into a defensive crouch is helpful, regardless of the merits of any position on regulation.

I agree with this.  In particular, making the point that kids in school get abused too is a ridiculous argument given the extreme overrepresentation.  A better argument would be that homeschooling isn't necessarily causing the abuse (because that's what people tend to think when confronted with data like these), but that, rather, these parents are likely using the homeschool laws as a cover (or their kids are being included under the homeschool umbrella by default) for the abuse.

Edited December 2, 2023 by EKS

[PeterPan]

Ok, you may find this interesting. First, an article by an org that I am NOT endorsing, merely putting out there because they attempted to explore this question. https://www.nheri.org/degree-of-homeschool-regulation-no-relationship-to-homeschool-child-abuse/  So it's one attempt. I'm sure you could do fresh data, draw different conclusions, whatever. However they did actually try to look at the data on this question of how regulation level intertwines with abuse level. I'm surprised at the results they got, because to look at the data it looks, to my pea brain, like mid level regulation states had the highest abuse levels and low and high were consistently lower. However then they run statistics and say there was no correlation, which means I am missing it. (not a lot of statistics experience  here, not able to speak to that)

Even more interestingly, the data they cite comes from https://www.hsinvisiblechildren.org/background/about-hic/  which is a group that argues that regulation is partly essential or culpable in the homeschooling abuse scenarios. So they may have a different way of analyzing their data, but a group arguing for the need is collecting abuse data to make correlations. 

If states are decreasing homeschooling regulation (which some are) and the data shows this is dangerous, then legislators are either unaware of or ignoring the data. Or the data, when analyzed for level of regulation and outcomes, does not show what our emotions think it would show. I don't know statistics well enough even to have a way to dig in on that.

[maize]

Removing kids from school in order to more conveniently and secretly continue abusing them isn't a "homeschooling leads to abuse" issue, it's an "abuse leads to abuse" issue and an "abusers try to hide abuse" issue. If homeschooling as a concept didn't exist, these parents would likely still remove their kids from school and try to hide them. 

Remember that horrific situation in Austria years ago--a "father" who was keeping his daughter and the children who resulted from him raping her captive in a hidden cellar? Homeschooling was illegal in Austria when this was happening. The abuse still happened. 

https://news.sky.com/story/who-is-josef-fritzl-the-rapist-who-kept-his-daughter-locked-in-a-cellar-for-24-years-12878269

Edited December 2, 2023 by maize

[Heartstrings]

1 hour ago, PeterPan said:

Maybe they could figure out what the connector REALLY is and address that. Is it mental health? Alcohol? What is the real conversation that needs to happen? 

I don’t know root causes, but in a lot cases I’m familiar with part of the problem is that DHS failed to step in for the last generation or 3.  
 

DHS was involved with the grandparents due to abuse but didn’t do enough, or did nothing. 

DHS was involved with parents  due to abuse but did nothing or not enough.
 

DHS is today involved with the abuse of the kids and is not doing enough.  

It’s fairly predictable that they will be involved with the eventual abuse of the children of these children and so forth.  
 

(All public schooled surprisingly). 

Edited December 2, 2023 by Heartstrings

[Faith-manor]

1 hour ago, Heartstrings said:

If only attending public school was actually the safety mechanism people want it to be. If only public school kept kids from being abused or murdered by parents. I wish it worked that way. 

In reality there are plenty of kids in public school being abused at home. At least some of the time the school knows and try to help but are unable, or the kids go to foster care for a bit before being returned back home to the abuse.  Being around the foster care system teaches you that mandated reporters don’t do any good at all when our CPS system is the way it is.   Every teacher probably has a few stories about knowing about abuse and watching nothing be done.  

Abuse isn’t a homeschool issue, it’s a society issue. 

I agree 100%. The vast majority of kids attend public and private school. The vast majority of kids who are in the foster care system were public and private schools students who languished for years under terrible abuse and neglect. Our lack of value of children historically in this nation is the issue. The general we, the leadership doesn't care enough to reform the system, take decisive action, stop reuniting children with their abusive parents, and fund foster care and group homes, possibly even nice, loving boarding schools. They don't, and if you bring it up to a lot of people, they will complain that they don't want their tax dollars going to it.

On the subject of education itself, I wish that portfolio review or something was a burden on the homeschooling community because I see soooooo much powerfully egregious educational neglect in religious communities here. These children really would be better off in our sad, pathetic local public schools which is a real endictment of "using homeschooling as an excuse to keep my kid blindly ignorant so he/she can't imagine leaving this religion." 

We need a children's bill of rights to start.

[Heartstrings]

3 minutes ago, Faith-manor said:

They don't, and if you bring it up to a lot of people, they will complain that they don't want their tax dollars going to it.

Funny how so many people only care about kids when they can use it as a cudgel against a group they dislike, such as homeschoolers.   

[Alice]

1 hour ago, PeterPan said:

We could go through each state and see, but VA has notification laws that seem to include academic testing, etc. etc. That's a pretty middle of the road approach for states that do have requirements. Since that doesn't seem to stop the potential for abuse, I'm not sure what kind of legal structures you're advocating for. Also, 9 of the 17 (across five states) were NOT homeschooled and were therefore theoretically in higher observation settings where they could have gotten assistance, been noticed, whatever. If THAT LEVEL of scrutiny, being enrolled in a daily school (yes?) doesn't solve the issue, then again I don't see what level of homeschool scrutiny you're asking for. 

It's HORRIFIC that abuse is happening, but it seems to be happening in spite of the school type, in spite of access to reporting/assistance, etc. Maybe they could figure out what the connector REALLY is and address that. Is it mental health? Alcohol? What is the real conversation that needs to happen? 

 

 Since VA keeps being brought up...it is technically a "middle" state as far as regulations go but it's also very easy to homeschool here and there is one particular loophole that mans no regulation. If you claim you are homeschooling under "religious exemption" then you do not have to do anything else and you do not have to ever report again,  you are done. Also, there is no requirements to prove religious exemption. I know people who claim it so that they can be exempt from the other requirements (which are IMO pretty easy). For the data in studies such as the one above it would be interesting to know if other states have similar loopholes which would make comparing low/middle/high regulation meaningless. 

 

 

 

[Heartstrings]

7 minutes ago, Alice said:

Also, there is no requirements to prove religious exemption.

They do have to go before the school board and make their case for it, then the school board can accept or reject it.  The state homeschool group doesn’t recommend it for that reason.  I knew a small number of people that used it, mostly people who had been homeschooling for a very long time, from the time that homeschooling regulations were more onerous.  I always thought it was weird and unnecessary myself.
 

I’ve also seen Arkansas classified as mid level for regulations and we literally only have to notify the school once per year, no testing or anything.  So I think the low/mid/high classifications are a bit weird to begin with.   

Edited December 2, 2023 by Heartstrings

[Faith-manor]

Just now, Alice said:

 Since VA keeps being brought up...it is technically a "middle" state as far as regulations go but it's also very easy to homeschool here and there is one particular loophole that mans no regulation. If you claim you are homeschooling under "religious exemption" then you do not have to do anything else and you do not have to ever report again,  you are done. Also, there is no requirements to prove religious exemption. I know people who claim it so that they can be exempt from the other requirements (which are IMO pretty easy). For the data in studies such as the one above it would be interesting to know if other states have similar loopholes which would make comparing low/middle/high regulation meaningless. 

 

 

 

Same here in Michigan. Legally, if you aren't a licensed teacher, you can't homeschool except by religious exemption. But no one has to file. We homeschooled for academics primarily, but when asked - and this is true- I explained that the current white European bias and Manifest Destiny emphasis in US history and civics education went against both the bitter truth and our personal beliefs, and that was NOT a lie. 

But ya, even the statute here requires homeschooling parents to cover a laundry list of academic subjects/topics, but there is no follow up or enforcement. I would not be opposed to a portfolio review where even just 80 lessons/papers for each su ject had to be handed in. I am against it being the public school that looks at it. I would rather it be an independent group, maybe the teacher education professors of a university or developmental pediatric psychologists or something, anything but the local ps who would have a vested, financial interest in saying they never received it when they did or lying about the contents in order to get the kid forced back into PS for the per head funding.

That said, just freaking reform public education to start. In my state, they really do not have a leg to stand on pointing fingers at others for the moment, except the egregious violations.

[PeterPan]

34 minutes ago, Faith-manor said:

stop reuniting children with their abusive parents

Bingo. Very complex issue that boggles the mind as you learn more. 

[PeterPan]

23 minutes ago, Faith-manor said:

I would not be opposed to a portfolio review

Wouldn't help with the other kids of abuse but would address the academic concerns you have. Really though, there are always ways around this. Our state had (and has ended) the portfolio review or test scores requirement, but you had to have these other exceptions and just ways to handle hard situations (severe SLDs, SN, etc. etc). You end up with industries of people who do portfolio reviews for $$, cherry picking who does the review, etc. etc. 

23 minutes ago, Faith-manor said:

That said, just freaking reform public education to start. In my state, they really do not have a leg to stand on pointing fingers at others for the moment, except the egregious violations.

 

[PeterPan]

25 minutes ago, Faith-manor said:

in Michigan. Legally, if you aren't a licensed teacher, you can't homeschool except by religious exemption. But no one has to file.

What a curious approach. Put an intrusive regulation but don't enforce it?? 

[PeterPan]

35 minutes ago, Alice said:

it would be interesting to know if other states have similar loopholes which would make comparing low/middle/high regulation meaningless. 

Our state was mid level regulation and had another law you could homeschool under that required a bachelors to avoid the typical homeschooling regulation. The state recently changed to low regulation, which was not an issue I had really been following as I was just making it work within the current system. It will be interesting to see how that holds up. 

Not to rabbit trail too much, but I *suspect* the demographic of who is homeschooling has shifted post covid. You had this crazy influx and then sort of a tidal wave back as people craved group/social. So laws function within the context of the people living under them. You could ponder weird things, like whether the demographic that passes laws in a high regulation state is maybe more inclined to certain approaches on social, etc. that contribute to a particular outcome. Or maybe a demographic that has shifted to be very low regulation (which is of course reliant on self regulation) is also possibly inclined to that and going to do well under those regulations. It's not like the values and demographics are homogenous across the US. They also shift with time. I doubt that the regulations needed in NYC fit those needed for South Dakota, for instance. Very different populations and situations they're working with. 

[PeterPan]

44 minutes ago, Heartstrings said:

Funny how so many people only care about kids when they can use it as a cudgel against a group they dislike, such as homeschoolers.   

There's a saying "Hard cases make bad law." It's very easy to be reactionary and we have to stop, look at the data, put things in context. 

[Faith-manor]

9 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

What a curious approach. Put an intrusive regulation but don't enforce it?? 

Welcome to 1980's politics in Michigan. It was dumb, wild ride. So basically they made it legal and made it sound like it was restrictive, and then promptly made it so there was ZERO teeth of any kind. It would be like prohibition with no enforcement so Budweiser keeps making beer and distributing it while illegal but no one gives a crap, but the state can say 'we have laws to control it". Crazy.

[Faith-manor]

13 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

Wouldn't help with the other kids of abuse but would address the academic concerns you have. Really though, there are always ways around this. Our state had (and has ended) the portfolio review or test scores requirement, but you had to have these other exceptions and just ways to handle hard situations (severe SLDs, SN, etc. etc). You end up with industries of people who do portfolio reviews for $$, cherry picking who does the review, etc. etc. 

 

The corruption never ends!

[frogger]

Any money that could be spent on a special oversight committee should be sent to CPS. In our state CPS is so overwhelmed they can't bother to care for cases that ARE reported. Workers are burnt out. Even the cases that are investigated are shoddily done. Children are often forced to go back to their abusers. Adding another layer won't help if the dysfunction is so strong at the level where things are supposed to actually be dealt with. 

I don't have a problem with some oversight but I would prefer we take care of the agency that is supposed to protect children first. It needs to be functional. 

[PeterPan]

12 minutes ago, Faith-manor said:

The corruption never ends!

Or just complexity. In the scenarios being cited here there are these competing values of rights/freedom and protection. It's the balance our system is constantly sorting through legally and philosophically. 

[PeterPan]

7 minutes ago, frogger said:

Any money that could be spent on a special oversight committee should be sent to CPS. In our state CPS is so overwhelmed they can't bother to care for cases that ARE reported. Workers are burnt out. Even the cases that are investigated are shoddily done. Children are often forced to go back to their abusers. Adding another layer won't help if the dysfunction is so strong at the level where things are supposed to actually be dealt with. 

I don't have a problem with some oversight but I would prefer we take care of the agency that is supposed to protect children first. It needs to be functional. 

In your understanding, does CPS need more funding or reform/house cleaning? 

And yes, that's the perpetual problem, adding layers of bureacracy instead of improving the systems that were already there that should have been dealing with it.

I was at a talk last night where a lady was talking about the importance of civic engagement and the surprising difference an engaged person/woman could make. I'm equally sure that some people get into xyz intended to do help and get overwhelmed by the level of challenge, sigh. For me, I've decided my sphere to effect change is probably small, one person at a time. It's just interesting to ponder where our level of engagement could be. The speaker suggested that men feel like it's their *right* to be engaged and active in certain spheres while women wait to be *asked*. 

Edited December 2, 2023 by PeterPan

[Heartstrings]

12 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

does CPS need more funding or reform/house cleaning?

Both! 

[frogger]

5 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

In your understanding, does CPS need more funding or reform/house cleaning? 

 

They need to pay their employees more, have sticter requirements, and need way more employees to properly handle cases. They also need more vacation time and mental health care. Case workers are forced to either harden their heart and not care that they don't have time to properly handle a case or they quit often with PTSD. Turnover rates are so high. A child getting a smart experienced worker who hasn't completely deadened their heart and mind is highly unlikely. 

[Terabith]

I’m actually less concerned about abuse in homeschool environments (though I do agree that families that abuse kids might use homeschooling as a way of hiding abuse) than I am about educational neglect, because I really do believe kids have a right to an education.  

[maize]

13 minutes ago, frogger said:

They need to pay their employees more, have sticter requirements, and need way more employees to properly handle cases. They also need more vacation time and mental health care. Case workers are forced to either harden their heart and not care that they don't have time to properly handle a case or they quit often with PTSD. Turnover rates are so high. A child getting a smart experienced worker who hasn't completely deadened their heart and mind is highly unlikely. 

Like with everything involving children (like teaching...) we want to pay too few people too little to do the job well.

We do not value children.

[maize]

Just now, Terabith said:

I’m actually less concerned about abuse in homeschool environments (though I do agree that families that abuse kids might use homeschooling as a way of hiding abuse) than I am about educational neglect, because I really do believe kids have a right to an education.  

I think carrots are better than sticks for dealing with educational neglect. 

Give families money to pay for classes and tutors and more homeschooled kids will get a quality education. Having funds through a flexible charter school program (the kind where I get to pick how the funds are spent and then get reimbursed) or more recently a tax-credit scholarship program has made a world of difference in what opportunities I am able to afford.