Parents of neurodiverse kids…

[Mrs Tiggywinkle Again]

How would you handle this?

DS13 has autism, diagnosed level 1.  We have been thrilled that this year he has really clicked with his 6:1:1 class and has made what we thought were really good friends.  So important when you’re 13.

Today his teacher called with concerns about way too many inappropriate comments, both racist and se$ual on the part of my son and two others. Apparently someone in the class(not my son) set up a Discord chat and she overheard my son saying that he hoped his parents never checked it(guess what’s happening tonight) and that my son got a kid in his class to order a racist joke book.  We very much are going to be restricting and filtering any screens he has access to at home…but. The teacher does feel he’s egged on by two of the boys but is definitely contributing and has been told many many times that it is inappropriate and to stop. He knows it’s not socially acceptable and wrong.

But we will have to limit access to these friends. Bottom line.  And it’s the only friends he has.  He has no interest in any activities where he might meet other kids, there are no extracurricular activities at his school, and he can’t be switched to another classroom right now.

We have been turned down multiple times for disability waivers or programs that would include social activities to meet other kids. He refuses to try dungeons and dragons at the library or anything like that.

i was so thrilled he had friends, and now I have to take away all outside of school access to them. But I also don’t tolerate this behavior at all and it doesn’t sound like the influences are great. Any thoughts I am missing?

[SKL]

I don't tolerate that either, but our kids are hearing so much of this at school and seeing it online.  Never mind the fact that they have also been exposed to so much material to combat this kind of ignorance, have many friends and acquaintances in minority groups, and are themselves members of groups that receive this kind of ignorant talk.  It also doesn't help that many of the people perpetuating this kind of talk are people of color.  Especially for neurodiverse kids, that sends a confusing message.

I honestly don't think the answer is keeping our kids away from their friends.  I like to think this is something they will all grow out of and realize there's absolutely nothing cool about it.  I assume the other kids' parents have also been informed and will be doing their part to try to explain why we don't talk this way.

Can the teacher take away something they like during school?  That seems to be the best way to convince kids not to do certain things at school.

[Mrs Tiggywinkle Again]

The teacher is the one who recommended limiting out of school communication.  I know two of the boys live in group homes and one is in foster care. I’m familiar with the group homes(used to work there) and screen access is not heavily monitored. So I am not sure what will happen at the other boys’ homes or group homes. 

Honestly I suspect the teacher probably knows more than she is able to tell me due to privacy issues and I trust her when she says I need to limit the communication to phone calls I can hear and to eliminate their online communications. 

I agree that the kids hear it everywhere and it’s confusing messages. Neither am I a prude; the sexual jokes, even as an adult, are everywhere(I’ve had to ask the ADULTS in the college class I’m teaching to stop; it’s ridiculous). But my kid convincing another child to order him a racist joke book crosses a whole lot of lines.  This school doesn’t really call with many concerns as they’re essentially a behavioral school, so I take them really seriously when they do.

Edited November 21, 2023 by Mrs Tiggywinkle Again

[Rosie_0801]

It's the usual thing, isn't it? If a kid can't handle a responsibility, the need for them to take responsibility for that thing must be removed until they can. 

[Faith-manor]

37 minutes ago, Rosie_0801 said:

It's the usual thing, isn't it? If a kid can't handle a responsibility, the need for them to take responsibility for that thing must be removed until they can. 

Always very wise, Rosie!

Hugs, Tiggy.

[Mrs Tiggywinkle Again]

Well, as soon as we asked to see his laptop and kindle, we discovered he’s changed all the passwords and now refuses to give them to us, so I guess the natural consequences are no electronics anyway until we can check what’s going on.

[Terabith]

Just fyi - social media and many algorithms specifically target teen boys for radicalization into toxic misogyny and white Christian nationalism, and it's nefarious and insidious and a really hard thing to fight.  I'm not a big believer in taking away friendships or screen time, since I know my neurodiverse kids use screens to self regulate, but I absolutely would in this instance.  

I'm so sorry.  

I do wonder if he has maybe grown beyond this school?  Would he be more likely to find an appropriate peer group in a larger environment, or would he be incapable of regulating there?  Though giving up a specialized school would be a really incredibly hard decision.

[Mrs Tiggywinkle Again]

10 minutes ago, Terabith said:

Just fyi - social media and many algorithms specifically target teen boys for radicalization into toxic misogyny and white Christian nationalism, and it's nefarious and insidious and a really hard thing to fight.  I'm not a big believer in taking away friendships or screen time, since I know my neurodiverse kids use screens to self regulate, but I absolutely would in this instance.  

I'm so sorry.  

I do wonder if he has maybe grown beyond this school?  Would he be more likely to find an appropriate peer group in a larger environment, or would he be incapable of regulating there?  Though giving up a specialized school would be a really incredibly hard decision.

I don’t think he could go from this school smack into 9th grade next year and our local schools have horrible supports for sensory kids. 

And frankly I’m not convinced my own kid isn’t the instigator. 
As far as I know, his social media has been limited to discord, but I didn’t know about that until today either.  

[Tap]

12 minutes ago, Terabith said:

Just fyi - social media and many algorithms specifically target teen boys for radicalization into toxic misogyny and white Christian nationalism, and it's nefarious and insidious and a really hard thing to fight.  I'm not a big believer in taking away friendships or screen time, since I know my neurodiverse kids use screens to self regulate, but I absolutely would in this instance.  

I'm so sorry.  

I do wonder if he has maybe grown beyond this school?  Would he be more likely to find an appropriate peer group in a larger environment, or would he be incapable of regulating there?  Though giving up a specialized school would be a really incredibly hard decision.

100% this!! Btdt with a friend’s teenage son. He reported that he started down this rabbit hoke heavily in middle school. Was using VPNs and Discord to circumvent parents. Parents knew he would make racist comments and would shut him down but didn’t realize the extent  he was going to until the FBI showed up on night about online threats. Over a year later and while things are a smidge better, as soon as he gets freedom on tech, he blazes a trail right down the hole again. I Seriously!!!!! Suggest counseling! Get ahold of the issue before it gets too bad. Seeing all this family has been thru has been horrible. 

[PeterPan]

1 hour ago, Mrs Tiggywinkle Again said:

13

The 13 yo male is a saint. They would never do anything hormonal or naughty or inappropriate or crass. They would never decide to throw out hygiene, stop washing their hair, sleep in their clothes day after day. They definitely would not begin to use profanity, start thinking about girls and s*x, notice anatomy, or say rude things.

It's puberty and it's what they do. Being nd doesn't make you skip puberty, but it makes it more high stakes as both the level of criticism/observation is higher (everyone nitpicking) AND the level of brain obtuseness is higher.

I don't think the fact that they're trying it means you've failed, only that they're pushing the boundaries and checking things out. You teach, just like you do anything else. My ds, who was previously compliant and civilized, has been checking out all those boundaries and trying to figure himself out. It's not a shock. We talk about being CIVILIZED and what it means to be CIVILIZED. We talk about autism and restricted interests and narrow perspectives. To me it's not shocking that he's doing it and hopefully he'll come to some sort of civilized medium at some point.

On the language stuff, I just tell my ds the truth (you're in a classy place, they are civilized, this is what they expect, society has changed and it is NOT ok to say certain things). He goes through machinations about how it's ok "if" the other person says it's ok, which is not the case. So it's just a teaching thing and some natural consequences. 

What I'm realizing and planning to work on is that whole process of how he decides who is right, who he has to listen to, how he justifies his course of action (in spite of correction), etc., because it puts him in an unsafe place. The same path of logic that allows him to justify saying xyz is the same path that could get him in some much more dangerous interactions (not listening to police, etc.). I think in some ways it's like they're re-seeing everything at this new level and need to think through it again. The stakes are VERY HIGH when you're adult size. We're pretty frank with him about that too. 

While you're at it, maybe expand the list and catch any other words you need to discuss. My ds was hanging with a bunch of teens lately for some extended social opportunities, so I think he found every word like that in the book, lol. 

[Tap]

This is further down the trail that you are probably at, but this was one of the articles that was recommended to me at the time to understand a bit more. https://www.westernstatescenter.org/caregivers

My friend's teen was getting pretty heavy into Neo Nazi topics and was absolutely fully believing white supremist topics. Not only reading, but disseminating.

[Katy]

I’d trust the teacher. No electronics until he hands over the passwords. You will look through everything or he will not be allowed them again. No outside contact with these friends. No social media until 18. No electronic use outside your sight for the foreseeable future. I’d probably put snooping software on it when I did allow it. 
 

I’m sorry that is really hard. 

[Mrs Tiggywinkle Again]

To be clear, I don’t think he’s racist or looking up racist stuff online.  I think his friends, two of whom are POC, make racist jokes so he thinks it’s okay to make the jokes just to his friend group(he is not making the jokes outside of the group per the teacher).  And then continues the joking both on the discord chat and in school. His teacher who is in the middle of it feels the same about it, that it is really confusing for him.  but the bottom line is that he knows he has been told to stop by school staff and now us. The sexual stuff is probably age normal but absolutely not appropriate and the school is clear he has to stop it.

I really thought he’d be perseverating about the No screens until passwords but he’s moved right on to sorting his yu-gi-oh cards and monologuing to me about dogs.

Edited November 21, 2023 by Mrs Tiggywinkle Again

[Katy]

That makes me wonder if he was bothered by it too and wanted you to intervene. 

[Mrs Tiggywinkle Again]

4 minutes ago, Katy said:

That makes me wonder if he was bothered by it too and wanted you to intervene. 

Maybe.  I think he’s been in trouble in school a bit. Or he knows it’s not worth being upset about because we aren’t budging on no electronics unless we have passwords and check out what he’s been looking at and the discord chat.

The other issue is that he will be in high school next year and it’s a different crowd despite still being a therapeutic school.  Racist jokes there will probably get him beaten up, and I have to get him to understand how absolutely not okay it is despite what his friends are saying.

[rebcoola]

57 minutes ago, Terabith said:

 I'm not a big believer in taking away friendships or screen time, since I know my neurodiverse kids use screens to self regulate, but I absolutely would in this instance.  

I agree about screens for self regulating but there are  screens that dont have internet access. We have a Rip off old school nintendo and game boy. We haven't had to do it for awhile but they are a great option to allow some screens.

 

 

 

Edited November 21, 2023 by rebcoola

[PeterPan]

16 minutes ago, Mrs Tiggywinkle Again said:

two of whom are POC, make racist jokes

This is the truth!! In the setting my ds was in, the person being called (a very inappropriate racial term) WAS of that melanin level and was egging it on, thought it was funny. But the STAFF supervising don't think it's funny and it violates the rules. At that point it just (in obtuse male mind) makes it looks like the staff are stiff and no fun, hyper picky if everyone is "ok" with it. He doesn't have the social thinking to realize someone might *pretend* to be ok with it and he doesn't have the social thinking to grasp that he will still be in trouble and it's still unacceptable even if they are. But it's a weird, contradictory thing.

I'm pretty perjorative with my ds and tell him he's listening to fools. He used to not like that, but after a while he figured out what I meant. It's an argumentative age and they want to argue viewpoints, challenge, push. It's fine, but then we can help them see what they're missing about who they listen to, how that person treats other people, whether that person is a good person to listen to. 

I can't keep him from every single thing, but I can up his filter level.

And yes, my face ID is on my ds' phone. If he ever took that off, the phone would be pretty much smashed, locked, done and over.

[PeterPan]

22 minutes ago, Mrs Tiggywinkle Again said:

he has to stop it.

Have you had the normal conversations about where we talk about things, etc.? My ds seems to miss all that. I try to pick up the clue phone for my ds a lot, lol. 

[PeterPan]

14 minutes ago, Mrs Tiggywinkle Again said:

beaten up,

My ds has these theories about bullies and male/macho status, so he started using the pull up bar. Apparently height + muscles = perceived status, deterrent factor.

In the social settings my ds is in, anything like that and I would expect security would be called and he'd be permanently banned. Since he likes being there, nothing happens. Nevertheless, there's still the pecking order thing. Pullup bar can hang in the doorway, doesn't cost much, maybe $30.

 

[Indigo Blue]

I’m sorry. I just want to be encouraging and say that I don’t have any advice, except to say that I agree with Rosie. Since I’ve “known”you on here, I’ve always admired how you’ve handled things. You seem to be a great mom, and I hope you find a good solution. I’m sure you will.  

[Mrs Tiggywinkle Again]

29 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

My ds has these theories about bullies and male/macho status, so he started using the pull up bar. Apparently height + muscles = perceived status, deterrent factor.

In the social settings my ds is in, anything like that and I would expect security would be called and he'd be permanently banned. Since he likes being there, nothing happens. Nevertheless, there's still the pecking order thing. Pullup bar can hang in the doorway, doesn't cost much, maybe $30.

 

He’s bigger than some and could probably handle his own in a fight, but some of these kids at his school are tough and think they’re affiliated with the local gang wannabees.  Nicely for him his parents have saved the lives of some of these adult wanna bees so they like us lol.  But I am constantly discussing things like you will be suspended, you may be expelled, and you’re getting to the age where charges can be filed.

Then I tell stories from my 19 months as a social worker in juvenile detention.

[SKL]

I don't disagree with monitoring his electronic communications out of school.  I think that at 13, that is a pretty normal thing unless a child has proven a pretty high level of maturity.  I didn't mean my comment to suggest electronic freedom.  I just meant I wouldn't stop the boys' in-person interactions, at least not based on what I've heard so far.

[SKL]

1 hour ago, PeterPan said:

This is the truth!! In the setting my ds was in, the person being called (a very inappropriate racial term) WAS of that melanin level and was egging it on, thought it was funny.

My kids' AA friends have "given them permission" to use the N word, and have egged them on.  My kids still know better than to say it in front of me, and I've explained many times that if they say that to someone in the wrong mood, their face is likely to be rearranged, and it will be their own fault.  But I don't think I'm making much of an impression so far.  It's pretty disappointing.

Edited November 21, 2023 by SKL

[Storygirl]

I'm sorry you are dealing with this. My kid struggled with similar issues so much that we were relieved when he graduated this spring. We didn't get called by teachers, but DS would tell us things himself, because he has issues with "know your audience." He would share the inappropriate/racist/sexist/whatever-you-wouldn't-want-your-kid-to-be-saying comments and jokes with us at home, even when he didn't know what they meant, exactly. And even though he is a person of color. And jokes about people on the spectrum and in special ed, when he is on the spectrum and was in special ed. When we would explain why they were inappropriate, he would not stop, but deliberately chose his friends' opinions over ours (he would tell us this outright).

Well, I won't go on. The good thing is that DS never really socialized outside of school hours. The bad thing is that he is still friendly with a couple of these guys after graduation. We really couldn't prevent a high schooler from choosing his own friends, but we did put limits and/or say no to some of the things that he was invited to.

He had his internet and computer privileges taken away many times, and we had his phone set so that he could not add or open apps unless we entered our own passcode on his phone. We put passwords on all of the electronics in the house. He needed these boundaries all through high school, unlike my other kids, who needed less supervision. There were times when he would march over acceptable boundaries within minutes of giving him a bit of freedom online, so we would have to pull back again.

The internet is a scary place when parenting kiddos like ours. I think you've gotten very good advice by others. I want you to know that you are not alone in dealing with these kind of things.

[Tap]

My biggest concern about it being more than just a few inappropriate jokes is the password protected laptop that you can’t get into. That is pretty telling that there is more to this than meets the eye. There are several chat sites that can be a bit hidden from view. I would search his email for account login requests or related messages to find sites he has accounts at. He also may have more than one email address so watch for that too. 

[Jaybee]

I'm sorry you are having to deal with this. I think it is so hard these days, dealing with all the screen stuff. It is also very easy for one who wants to be secretive, to get a phone the parents know nothing about. So keep your antennae up for hidden screens, too.🙁

[Mrs Tiggywinkle Again]

43 minutes ago, Tap said:

My biggest concern about it being more than just a few inappropriate jokes is the password protected laptop that you can’t get into. That is pretty telling that there is more to this than meets the eye. There are several chat sites that can be a bit hidden from view. I would search his email for account login requests or related messages to find sites he has accounts at. He also may have more than one email address so watch for that too. 

The laptop has been handed over to his uncle who does IT security for a Fortune 500 company. We gave him multiple chances to just let us in and then called his uncle.  
his teacher said they’ve been handling this as well in his social skills therapy group so they are dealing with that part but I just cannot seem to get it through his head that he can’t talk like this and yes we really are going to end out of school unsupervised communication with his friends.  DH and I are agreeable to phone calls in the living room or kitchen.

They are pretty heavily monitored in his school as well but the teacher says they just can’t get the class to stop.  A natural consequence may have to be that the class gets split up and he no longer sees these friends.

It has just taken so long to get friends and he loves having friends.  I don’t know the class makeup but it’s an emotional delay class so not everyone has autism. That is undoubtably part of the problem—the other kids have a higher social IQ and he just wants friends. So I’m factoring that in but seriously: he knows it’s not okay.

[Tap]

I have walked this same road with dd17 so many years. She wants to have friends, but she doesn't really understand how to be a good friend. She will do things for laughs but doesn't really understand that they are often laughing AT her, or nervous laughing because what she does/says makes people uncomfortable.  She can be a really funny person, but she goes too far for attention.  She is currently struggling with using racial slurs when she gets mad at people.  She has specifically targeted blacks and Mexicans. But, ironically her closest and longest time friend.....is half of each. She adores her family and honestly has zero issue with anyone of any race. She is a bit darker skinned herself! But she knows it is a button, and she will push it when she wants to stir stuff up!!

Her therapeutic school deals with it by having her read articles about race and while I agree there is little else they can do, I don't see it helping yet. I think that kids who struggle, especially if they have been teased, just really want someone to be lower than them on the social hierarchy. 

When I was helping my friend dive in to the neo-nazi/white supremist muck, there were several great articles about how groups are targeting young white boys. They boy may start looking for something simple about on race online and they start getting inundated with information. Targeted ads, chat room dialog, Discord chats, etc. Playing games with friends and getting invited into certain online circles or guilds. It starts as slight racial jokes and then they slowly and methodically keep increasing the intensity as the person feels more and more comfortable with it.  The boy gets invited to join groups that increase in intensity and as they learn the tribal language, they start feeling more and more part of those groups. One point that came up several times, is that there isn't any thing unique about being a heterosexual white male. As a very broad generalization, they aren't a protected class, they aren't typically flamboyant, they aren't generally wearing skirts/makeup, they aren't asking for acceptance/attention to raise awareness, they haven't been overtly oppressed, they aren't asking for time to allow for xyz special event,  etc.  Part of why the white supremacist group appeal is....is that they celebrate being a white male! They want them to stand up and be proud of who they are and what they represent in our culture. Everyone else who is being celebrated in our culture for being different/unique, is wrong. That being a white male is superior.

I am in no way suggesting that your son has fallen down this rabbit hole to the extent of what my friends son has, but if you find anything alarming when you search his computer, just know he may be getting targeted by these groups and it isn't as easy to break away from as just gaining awareness. They will keep targeting and friends he may have made on line, can be feeding the frenzy.

((((Hugs)))))) I hate when we have to make choices for our kids that have as much benefit as hurt. DD has had so little positive social interaction in her life, that I hate to block any friends. She has burned so many bridges that even some teens that were tolerant of her quirks, have nothing to do with her now.  When a teacher has reached out to me and said 'discourage this friendship' I know there is something serious going on and I need to head the warning.  

[Tap]

2 hours ago, Mrs Tiggywinkle Again said:

The laptop has been handed over to his uncle who does IT security for a Fortune 500 company. We gave him multiple chances to just let us in and then called his uncle.  
his teacher said they’ve been handling this as well in his social skills therapy group so they are dealing with that part but I just cannot seem to get it through his head that he can’t talk like this and yes we really are going to end out of school unsupervised communication with his friends.  DH and I are agreeable to phone calls in the living room or kitchen.

They are pretty heavily monitored in his school as well but the teacher says they just can’t get the class to stop.  A natural consequence may have to be that the class gets split up and he no longer sees these friends.

It has just taken so long to get friends and he loves having friends.  I don’t know the class makeup but it’s an emotional delay class so not everyone has autism. That is undoubtably part of the problem—the other kids have a higher social IQ and he just wants friends. So I’m factoring that in but seriously: he knows it’s not okay.

That is awesome to have someone who can help you!  I really hope they find some very typical, age appropriate stuff that a teenage boy may just want to hide from his parents. 

You may want to check his school laptop too if he has one. We would find thing on their son's laptop that should have never made it thru the school's filters but did. Even if your son isn't super tech knowledgeable, it doesn't mean a friend may not be (or friends brother etc)! We were alerting the school tech officer to work arounds we found on his computer. They were like "thanks, kids are always figuring out ways  to get around the filters". It was no big deal to him. Just one more parent calling him. 

[Tap]

As you are removing tech, remember to get all game systems too. Most have chat features, smart tvs, iTouch, tablets etc. It is crazy how many tech devices have access to the internet on them. 

[PeterPan]

17 hours ago, SKL said:

My kids' AA friends have "given them permission" to use the N word, and have egged them on

There is clearly some kind of dynamic I'm not privy to, because the whole thing seems so backwards (who cares about certain words, etc.). It's almost like some perverse power (it's bad unless I say it's bad, in which case it's only bad if you get caught). Sigh. 

Unfortunately, there's also the R word, which I had to triple chastise him on. I have not one but two adult cousins (one now deceased) who used to be labeled with that word (for different reasons) so not only does it affect the rest of his interactions but it's actually personal to our family, which he doesn't seem to grasp!

[PeterPan]

13 hours ago, Tap said:

She can be a really funny person, but she goes too far for attention. 

That's such an interesting point. You're right that this was occurring mainly in a new to ds social setting where he was trying to stretch himself, find a place, gather attention. And I think you're onto something that if the instruction about it focuses on the actual words, it might miss that that wasn't the FUNCTION of the words/behavior for our peeps at all. If it wasn't about being racist but about attention seeking, then the answer is totally different.

[Mrs Tiggywinkle Again]

I’m quite certain the function is to fit in, be what he thinks is funny, and to push the line as far as he can. I have to get through to him that it’s not just pushing a line, it’s blowing right past it.

So Ds13 asks if it’s okay to tell a certain type of ethnic joke because he’s part Jewish. I said absolutely not ever. But his best friend, who is a POC, tells racist jokes and why is that okay.  I explain that it’s not okay. Well, friend isn’t offended and I am not offended so why is it not okay.

And we go round and round.

Edited November 22, 2023 by Mrs Tiggywinkle Again