The kids are in charge.

[Ting Tang]

I've mentioned this many times, but we live nextdoor to my in-laws.  My husband farms with his dad.  It has its perks, but it also has a downside.  Over the years, I feel I have lost a lot of authority over my own children.  My boys in particular like to head nextdoor, and they are often indulged.  I mean, that is what Grandmas do---they get treats, iPad time, etc.

My husband is more authoritative than I am, but he earns the money for our family, and he can't be here all the time--as a farmer, he is gone days/nights seven days a week at certain times.  My kids don't really respect me.  It's my fault, not that I haven't done my fair share of yelling, but... They talk back to me.  It's really bad with my oldest son, and it has trickled down.  Today it is my youngest who is being defiant.  My SIL came to get my nephew, who was staying with Grandma this weekend.  So today they had outings and invited my sons.  I didn't go because I have shingles.  We normally do school on this day, even though kids are off.  My daughter did school today.  Well, I asked the youngest (age 6) if he wanted to do school, and he backtalked.  I already know this week we will need to take time off from school for my daughter's private lesson, son's orthodontist, piano, etc.

I'm honestly so tired of it, and I am tired of yelling, pleading, etc.  This year we are already off the schedule I prefer, so I do think we are "behind" on lessons since we take summers off.  

I think we should put the boys back into school.  The local school has so many partial days, it's crazy.  But they get our own time off here, and now they want the public school time off, too.  

I think it is too late with my lack of authority, but honestly, I just kinda want to be selfish and take care of me and not deal with them all day everyday anymore. Living nextdoor to my in-laws was probably a bad idea.   Maybe that sounds horrible.  

Edited October 9, 2023 by Ting Tang

[EKS]

8 minutes ago, Ting Tang said:

Well, I asked the youngest (age 6) if he wanted to do school, and he backtalked.

I'm sorry things are hard. 

I would start with not asking anyone whether they want to do school unless you are willing to live with the answer.  In our house, school was a non-negotiable activity with regular, mostly inviolable hours.

It is also ok to put your kids in school if you think that is what would be best for everyone.

[Ting Tang]

3 minutes ago, EKS said:

I'm sorry things are hard. 

I would start with not asking anyone whether they want to do school unless you are willing to live with the answer.  In our house, school was a non-negotiable activity with regular, mostly inviolable hours.

It is also ok to put your kids in school if you think that is what would be best for everyone.

You're right, and my husband says this, too.  My son had just come inside after spending time with my SIL and his cousin.  I wasn't happy with this trip at all this weekend given my condition and a rough harvest season, but I figured he could go because he and the others would have complained about not going.  So when he came home, I figured we could get something done.  Nope...it's a holiday! 

Yes, I think school is the best answer for my family. I don't really want to do that, but it has gotten worse with each year.  I promised if I couldn't do a better job than our local school, it would be time for them to go back. 

[bookbard]

It's ok to make that decision (my kids are back at school next year) but keep in mind you're quite unwell, so things are going to be harder. Maybe wait till you're feeling better?

 

[8filltheheart]

Personally, I don't think sending kids to school is a solution for family dysfunction.  If the kids don't respect you, sending them to school is not going to fix what is broken.  It may give you a break while they are at school, but it will just continue when they are at home.

I would work on fixing your parenting issues.   Kids only become more challenging to parent as they get older,  Anyone who believes that parenting 2 yr olds is the hardest age has not parented older teens and young adults.  Relationships matter.  Family matters.  Fixing what is broken would be my absolute highest priority.

FWIW, I am a grandparent.  4 of my grandkids have been here for the week.  I also homeschool my oldest granddaughter.  Undermining their parents or giving them what they want is NOT what grandparents do by default.  If that is the relationship that they have with their grandmother and they are running over to her house to get what they want, restricting access to grandma until they start behaving within your own home would be my absolute first step.  Grandma visits would be an earned reward.

[Ting Tang]

Just now, 8filltheheart said:

Personally, I don't think sending kids to school is a solution for family dysfunction.  If the kids don't respect you, sending them to school is not going to fix what is broken.  It may give you a break while they are at school, but it will just continue when they are at home.

I would work on fixing your parenting issues.   Kids only become more challenging to parent as they get older,  Anyone who believes that parenting 2 yr olds is the hardest age has not parented older teens and young adults.  Relationships matter.  Family matters.  Fixing what is broken would be my absolute highest priority.

FWIW, I am a grandparent.  4 of my grandkids have been here for the week.  I also homeschool my oldest granddaughter.  Undermining their parents or giving them what they want is NOT what grandparents do by default.  If that is the relationship that they have with their grandmother and they are running over to her house to get what they want, restricting access to grandma until they start behaving within your own home would be my absolute first step.  Grandma visits would be an earned reward.

Yes, in my head I know this.  I just wonder if I need to shift some responsibilities to the school and eliminate the temptation to go there during those hours to help fix the issue.  I think my kids take advantage of her.  My oldest will leave the house even if I say no.  I think at times it is his lead poisoning playing into his defiance.  I think I need time to collect myself.  I totally agree---it gets harder and harder as they get older.  

[Ting Tang]

12 minutes ago, bookbard said:

It's ok to make that decision (my kids are back at school next year) but keep in mind you're quite unwell, so things are going to be harder. Maybe wait till you're feeling better?

 

I actually think this is part of what brought on the shingles since it seems to be triggered by stress.  I'm starting to take things off my plate.  One extracurricular lesson is coming off my plate, too.  I realize I am trying to be good at so many things but seem to be failing by being everything to them.  

Edited October 9, 2023 by Ting Tang

[Clarita]

I'm so sorry your kids aren't being cooperative. It's harder when the people around you aren't supporting you in boundaries. I don't think it's too late to establish authority (not that I would know but I want to believe that). Whatever you decide about school and life these three books have really helped me establish authority with my children while being a parent I'm not disgusted with.

 The Explosive Child by Ross Greene https://www.amazon.com/Explosive-Child-Sixth-Understanding-Chronically-dp-0063092468/dp/0063092468/ref=dp_ob_title_bk has really helped me with my non-compliant children. There are some things in there that other parenting books also cover but I the examples in there are much more helpful to me. The examples are not I did the approach word for word and suddenly my child couldn't help themselves but to do as I wanted them to. It shows parents having to continuously set the boundaries for their children and their children taking micro-baby steps toward to being tolerable. The beginning part of the book helped me reframe my children's misbehavior and helped me to help them be more helpful human beings.

The other book that has helped me is Never Split the Difference: Negotiating as if Your Life Depended on It by Chris Voss https://www.amazon.com/Never-Split-Difference-Negotiating-Depended/dp/1847941494/ref=sr_1_1?crid=2HME7BHEVERUU&keywords=slipt+the+difference&qid=1696893661&s=books&sprefix=slipt+the+difference%2Cstripbooks%2C138&sr=1-1. It's for interactions with adults, but it's helped me talk to my children.

How to Talk So Kids Will Listen & Listen So Kids Will Talk by Adele Faber and Elaine Mazlish https://www.amazon.com/How-Talk-Kids-Will-Listen/dp/1451663889 actually has some similar tactics but written specifically with parent and children. I just think the Chris Voss book worked better for me because the examples of the children in this book are more compliant than my own.

[AnneGG]

Perhaps your husband needs to set boundaries with his parents. No iPad time and treats at the grandparent’s house during the week, whether you homeschool or public school. If they go to ps they will still have homework and chores. There’s no need for a mini Vegas at Grammy’s every afternoon. 

If you decide to continue with homeschooling, you need consistency. Strip down to the bare minimum. Math and a language arts component. Institute a reading hour. You can rest and they can read. Do not focus on being better than public school. It is not a competition. Strong relationship are the ultimate foundation. 
 

We have been through hard homeschool phases. For me, the only way through it was to be consistent and simplify. I also have to make sure everyone is eating a balanced diet, getting adequate sleep and getting enough fresh air and exercise. I consider any changes in our lives or schedule that could be presenting as defiance towards school. Not staying you don’t have all that covered already!  *I* find that sometimes it’s the life issues that cause big roadblocks in my homeschool.  

[8filltheheart]

I would also quit all outside activities, especially your dd's. I would not sacrifice my family or homeschooling for a child's sport or any other activity. Reading your posts over the months, it seems like you have sacrificed both.  You dont have quality relationships with your children and you dont have the learning environment you desire. Establishing boundaries and authority begins at home. Being at home reduces so much stress.  Being at home allow control over/nurturing of both to be established.

[kathyl]

I would do just what others are saying here.  Especially the following:

Have a serious discussion with your dh and spell out exactly what's going on with his parents and exactly what you expect HIM to do to control HIS parents.

Quit all outside activities.  If they won't do the work, they won't get the perks.

Make 'school hours' and enforce them.  No running off to next door, etc.  And maybe make school 'light' while you get the family issues resolved.

 

Sending them to school might give you a break in the short term, but the long-term effects might be worse.  I don't know.  But I do know that if the kids are out of control now, they could end up even more out of control if they end up in the wrong crowd in school.  BTDT with my oldest.  And backtracking was next to impossible with him (early teens). 

[AnneGG]

You might enjoy the 10 Minutes to a Better Homeschool podcast episode 79, What is Deschooling?
 

I’m listening now. Ha. 

[regentrude]

I think many issues could be solved if you were more intentional about protecting school time. Schedule extracurriculars around school, not vice versa. Outings and visits can happen after school is done.

Having a predictable, consistent routine is helpful for all kids. It eliminates discussions and arguments when school always begins at the same time (for us, 8 am) and you don't run around during the mornings.

[Ting Tang]

Thank you everyone.  Yes, I do need to protect our homeschool day better.  Short of my daughter quitting her sport, though, it's nearly impossible to schedule her lessons for afterschool hours. However, one option might be to lessen the frequency and extend the lessons.   After our next round of appointments, I am only going to schedule those later in the day, too.  That will help.  We have a lot of appointments lately, such as the orthodontist every two weeks in addition to regular ones and car appointments.  My daughter has learned how to balance lessons with school time.  I am not worried about her.  

I also recognize it isn't fair to the other kids, though, so sometimes I do think school would be a better place.  Looking at their schedule, it is almost as crazy with two partial days a month, institutes, etc.   I will see if I can get more cooperation from my husband's family about not allowing the kids to loiter and indulge.  I love the Vegas comment---that's exactly how it feels sometimes!  I know it sounds stupid to put something before school.  

I will check out some of the mentioned resources.  I hope it is not too late. 

Today they all worked off a detailed list, which included chores, and that was good.  I've been meaning to do that for a while again.  It just took my oldest child more time to get to his.  We didn't have to be anywhere, and that felt good. 

[kirstenhill]

7 minutes ago, Ting Tang said:

Thank you everyone.  Yes, I do need to protect our homeschool day better.  Short of my daughter quitting her sport, though, it's nearly impossible to schedule her lessons for afterschool hours. However, one option might be to lessen the frequency and extend the lessons.   After our next round of appointments, I am only going to schedule those later in the day, too.  That will help.  We have a lot of appointments lately, such as the orthodontist every two weeks in addition to regular ones and car appointments.  My daughter has learned how to balance lessons with school time.  I am not worried about her.  

I also recognize it isn't fair to the other kids, though, so sometimes I do think school would be a better place.  Looking at their schedule, it is almost as crazy with two partial days a month, institutes, etc.   I will see if I can get more cooperation from my husband's family about not allowing the kids to loiter and indulge.  I love the Vegas comment---that's exactly how it feels sometimes!  I know it sounds stupid to put something before school.  

I will check out some of the mentioned resources.  I hope it is not too late. 

Today they all worked off a detailed list, which included chores, and that was good.  I've been meaning to do that for a while again.  It just took my oldest child more time to get to his.  We didn't have to be anywhere, and that felt good. 

Sounds like you have some good steps!  I think sometimes we have to face the hard decisions when it comes to sports or activities that are important to us.  It will be harder and harder as your kids get older to have so much time taken up by your daughter's sport and still get everyone's school work done.  If the sport is your family's priority, it's ok to own it and put other kids in school to focus on it.  The other kids might enjoy being in school and not having to tag along to the activities of the kid who is in the time consuming sport. 

If the academics are the priority or you still feel like you need to be homeschooling for other reasons, the sport might have to go eventually.   That's ok too, even if it is hard for the kid who has to quit and activity because it just doesn't work anymore.  What's going to be hard is continuing to "do it all" and put so many hours in the week into the sport, and still have a strong academic focus.  

[Dianthus]

Books I'm reading:

Making Brothers and Sisters Best Friends (read aloud for the kids)

Laying Down the Rails (spot read)

Mother Culture (skimmed)

The Family Virtues guide (haven't started)

[8filltheheart]

2 hours ago, Ting Tang said:

Thank you everyone.  Yes, I do need to protect our homeschool day better.  Short of my daughter quitting her sport, though, it's nearly impossible to schedule her lessons for afterschool hours. However, one option might be to lessen the frequency and extend the lessons.   After our next round of appointments, I am only going to schedule those later in the day, too.  That will help.  We have a lot of appointments lately, such as the orthodontist every two weeks in addition to regular ones and car appointments.  My daughter has learned how to balance lessons with school time.  I am not worried about her.  

I also recognize it isn't fair to the other kids, though, so sometimes I do think school would be a better place.  Looking at their schedule, it is almost as crazy with two partial days a month, institutes, etc.   I will see if I can get more cooperation from my husband's family about not allowing the kids to loiter and indulge.  I love the Vegas comment---that's exactly how it feels sometimes!  I know it sounds stupid to put something before school.  

I will check out some of the mentioned resources.  I hope it is not too late. 

Today they all worked off a detailed list, which included chores, and that was good.  I've been meaning to do that for a while again.  It just took my oldest child more time to get to his.  We didn't have to be anywhere, and that felt good. 

What is the goal with your dd's sport?  Is your family willing to put her needs ahead of everyone else's in the family?  Is the goal a lifetime objective?  The Olympics?  Only you and your dh can answer those questions (and I would not ask them in terms of your child's reaction.  I would ask them in terms of how you and your dh want your family to function.)  

1 hour ago, kirstenhill said:

Sounds like you have some good steps!  I think sometimes we have to face the hard decisions when it comes to sports or activities that are important to us.  It will be harder and harder as your kids get older to have so much time taken up by your daughter's sport and still get everyone's school work done.  If the sport is your family's priority, it's ok to own it and put other kids in school to focus on it.  The other kids might enjoy being in school and not having to tag along to the activities of the kid who is in the time consuming sport. 

If the academics are the priority or you still feel like you need to be homeschooling for other reasons, the sport might have to go eventually.   That's ok too, even if it is hard for the kid who has to quit and activity because it just doesn't work anymore.  What's going to be hard is continuing to "do it all" and put so many hours in the week into the sport, and still have a strong academic focus.  

Kirstenhill's post sums up reality really well.   They are hard questions, but they are the questions that you need to be asking.  From reading your posts, you are not a good multi-tasking individual.  You are split in too many directions to carry the responsibilities you currently have.  If all the kids went to school except sport dd, could you juggle all of your mom hats?    Would your other children feel that things were unequal?  Some families handle time consuming sport commitments well.  Some don't.  It really needs to be framed in those terms.  It isn't about whether your dd is thriving.  It is about whether or not the family is.  A sport is not like a serious illness where there are no options but to center life around medical issues.  These are all choices.....sports, homeschooling, piano, etc.  None of them are have-tos.   You and your dh need to make decisions that are best for everyone in the entire family.

Edited October 10, 2023 by 8filltheheart

[Not_a_Number]

23 hours ago, Clarita said:

 The Explosive Child by Ross Greene https://www.amazon.com/Explosive-Child-Sixth-Understanding-Chronically-dp-0063092468/dp/0063092468/ref=dp_ob_title_bk has really helped me with my non-compliant children. There are some things in there that other parenting books also cover but I the examples in there are much more helpful to me. The examples are not I did the approach word for word and suddenly my child couldn't help themselves but to do as I wanted them to. It shows parents having to continuously set the boundaries for their children and their children taking micro-baby steps toward to being tolerable. The beginning part of the book helped me reframe my children's misbehavior and helped me to help them be more helpful human beings.

I'll second this one. We've found this really helpful. 

I'll also push back against the idea that putting them in school is the wrong thing. Sometimes we can only fix things when we get some space and time and get our head on straight. And the kids might very well appreciate homeschooling more when they have to deal with people's arbitrary authority at school. 

Remember: putting them in school doesn't have to be permanent. They can be in school for a bit while you figure things out, and they can either stay in school or go back to homeschooling according to what makes sense for your family. 

[Not_a_Number]

Oh, and another thing. We aren't in your head. We don't actually know what's best for you. 

To do the right thing, you have to get secure with your own decision, not listen to strangers on Internet. The more you let strangers on the Internet make up your mind one way or another, the less ownership you wind up having of this decision. And that's not so different from letting the kids run things, is it? The point is for YOU to be in charge and make the decisions, no matter how scary it may be. 

[Clarita]

The sport part is actually something DH and I talk about even though DS is still young. We talk about who can drive practices and who can help with competitions. A few times I've had to get help from neighbors, the grandparents or teammates parents to juggle (it does not make sense for DD to have to go to every event DS has).

Most people I see who make competitive sports work, the adults work together to get the child(ren) to all the places they need to be. It can't all fall on mom to juggle the sport and the other children, even for those who don't homeschool.

[Ting Tang]

Unfortunately, right now, it is almost all me when it comes to education and the extracurricular activities.   My husband's work has to come first because he earns the money for the family, and I have learned to be okay with it.  

My daughter's sport is a bit more intense than the other kids' activities right now.  What I am hoping is that as she gets older, she will have more ownership over it.   She would also be able to handle fewer in-person lessons, do more online lessons, once she has the maturity for it.  

So yes, those are all important questions about the other kids vs. her.  The other kids are not at the same level as she is in their activities, but they are working their way there. My son spends more hours actually taking lessons, but they are all closer to home.  So that helps a lot, and they are at night. 

But education first.  That is why I was considering school, at least for my oldest, if her schedule makes it hard for him to school.  He still maintains friendships with kids from the class, so he would probably feel comfortable in that regard.  On the other hand, he might miss some of the perks of homeschooling.  When my husband is less busy (which isn't when main extracurriculars are happening, lol) he takes him fishing, on hikes, etc.  

I used to be a good multitasker, but not with four kids---yes, I want my family to thrive and not just one member!     I actually have the Laying Down the Rails Guide and companion books.  We started to use them earlier in the year and should be more religious about that...

Thank you all!  It is late, and I hope I haven't missed addressing anything you all wrote.   

[Dianthus]

My ds11 was very good at his sport but it was time consuming. Last spring he said he didn't want to play this year because he wanted time for other things. You shouldn't be a slave to recreation, especially for one child. It really wasn't fair to my three other kids to be dragged to his practices and games all the time. And he is happier doing two other individual sports and having more free time.

Maybe put all your kids on the swim team or change to family walks/hikes. I'd find a replacement that includes everyone. It helps family rapport to have fun together.

You need to have your husband give MIL boundaries. I realize that may be difficult because of her illness. How is she doing? Did you end up driving her to appts?

You need to make your life easier for you. Maybe don't do the most rigorous curriculum until you've gotten them to improve manners and respect. Oh, we are also doing MP manner of the week. It has good reminders. 

Do you have a schedule? I typically don't but this year I made one, and posted it on the bookshelf. We don't follow the times but the kids can see the to do list for each day and then know what to do next or ask for next. It helps.

 

[Heartstrings]

13 hours ago, Ting Tang said:

Unfortunately, right now, it is almost all me when it comes to education and the extracurricular activities.   My husband's work has to come first because he earns the money for the family, and I have learned to be okay with it. 

Is it possible for the grandparents to help out with getting to and from the activity?  They are right there and seem to like to be involved.  

[8filltheheart]

14 hours ago, Ting Tang said:

Unfortunately, right now, it is almost all me when it comes to education and the extracurricular activities.   My husband's work has to come first because he earns the money for the family, and I have learned to be okay with it.  

I agree with this paragraph.  It is the reality in a lot of homes (mine included bc my dh works long hrs.) 

From an outsider's perspective, it really comes down to priorities.  From your posts over the months and in this thread, it is obvious that your dd's sport has the priority in your life.  If you are going to hold fast to that, then reality is you need to figure out how to make everything else work in subservience to her sport.  You need to create a flow chart in which your days have everything else feeding down off of her schedule.  You can't make things happen that don't have time to fit a real day.  

[kathyl]

17 hours ago, Ting Tang said:

Unfortunately, right now, it is almost all me when it comes to education and the extracurricular activities.   My husband's work has to come first because he earns the money for the family, and I have learned to be okay with it.  

My daughter's sport is a bit more intense than the other kids' activities right now.  What I am hoping is that as she gets older, she will have more ownership over it.   She would also be able to handle fewer in-person lessons, do more online lessons, once she has the maturity for it.  

So yes, those are all important questions about the other kids vs. her.  The other kids are not at the same level as she is in their activities, but they are working their way there. My son spends more hours actually taking lessons, but they are all closer to home.  So that helps a lot, and they are at night. 

But education first.  That is why I was considering school, at least for my oldest, if her schedule makes it hard for him to school.  He still maintains friendships with kids from the class, so he would probably feel comfortable in that regard.  On the other hand, he might miss some of the perks of homeschooling.  When my husband is less busy (which isn't when main extracurriculars are happening, lol) he takes him fishing, on hikes, etc.  

I used to be a good multitasker, but not with four kids---yes, I want my family to thrive and not just one member!     I actually have the Laying Down the Rails Guide and companion books.  We started to use them earlier in the year and should be more religious about that...

Thank you all!  It is late, and I hope I haven't missed addressing anything you all wrote.   

It might help to try to come up with a general end goal for your kids.  Where do you see them ending up at the end of their time with you, or at the end of their education for K-12, or whatever?  What would you LIKE for them to have learned/accomplished, etc.  

And then take that and see if there's a way you can get there from where you are now.  

For me, I wanted my kids to get an education.  That was the overriding goal from start to finish.  And I made a conscious decision that they were going to get that education whether they liked it or not.  And the best way to get them there for us was by following WTM, mostly.  So I arranged our lives (5dc and me - because dh was always working, so mostly not in the picture), to work towards that goal.  It meant giving up a lot of things, but it also meant discovering all kinds of other wonderful things to take the place of the missing things along the way.  It was an exciting adventure, but a very hard one.  But I didn't care.  I just knew that I wanted my kids to leave our home with a solid education.  And all 5 of them did that.  

I don't know all your circumstances, but if your dh is unavailable then it's up to you to carry out the actual plans y'all come up with, isn't it?  And your kids are getting older.  Time is definitely a factor.  

   

[LauraClark]

From a Christian perspective: I very much relate to what you're saying.  I am a people pleaser and that trickles down to wanting to please my children.  Which leaves me frazzled because there are so many of them and they don't want to be pleased with the things that are good for them. They want to just play and even then aren't usually totally pleased.  I constantly find myself asking them dumb questions like "did you enjoy your math today?" or "ready for school?".  I know the answers and I know I shouldn't ask those questions, but it's hard to stop myself!  The solution 100% of the time for me is going back to the Lord:

1. Remember who He is.  He is the One in control. He sees me and still loves me. He knows my children and what they need - I can go to Him with problems and I can trust Him.

2. Remember what my God given roll is. I am to love them - that means caring about (but not submitting myself to) their current happiness.  But it means wanting their good in the future much more than caring about the present. That gives me a lot more confidence to say "no" to fun things. It also means that sometimes I say "yes" to fun things and put school work off for another day. Sometimes those side things happening are really important - even if they're not "school".

Constantly reminding myself who God is and checking to see if I'm where God would want me to be is incredibly helpful. It shifts my focus and brings me instant peace and confidence. Otherwise I'm feeling overwhelmed and stressed and ready to just throw in the towel. 

[Clemsondana]

You have my sympathies.  We are a family that is out of the house a good bit, with both kids doing activities.  Our drives are usually short (under 30 minutes) and I was able to take advantage of the 1:1 time with no distractions to work with the kids - if you are waiting on sibling, there isn't much else to do so you might as well get the school done.  That doesn't work for everybody, but for one of my kids it was easier than trying to work at home.  I don't know that it would have worked as well if we had needed to drive a long way, or if the kids had needed to be home to work. 

The disrespect and oppositional behavior is challenging.  It may be that not having a consistent routine is hard for that kid.  For my challenging child, a home-set routine was harder than a routine anchored by various activities - the work has to be done before class at 12, or we need to do get the math done while we wait for sibling and then we can...  I think that many kids can learn to work with different schedules, so while something may be better or worse for your kid, I'm not sure that's the primary issue.  

That being said, the kids feeling like there is an escape hatch of going next door where they didn't have to do their work would cause absolute chaos at my house.  One of my kids would do the work anyway, because kid is a natural rule follower who likes to check everything off the list.  But, my other kid would be out the door all day every day.  We've had a lot of challenge with managing school and behavior with this kid, and the biggest help has been that everybody is on board.  I got spouse to see that any time my decisions were undermined, kid would know that it was worth a try to not listen and hope that dad came to the rescue.  Kid now finds us to both be equally frustrating, which is what needed to happen.  My parents, who are local, see us most weeks, sometimes more than once, and often take a kid for the weekend if we have an activity with the other, back us up, too.  There's a difference between grandma always having ice cream for dessert or letting a kid stay up late at a sleepover and giving them a rules-free place to avoid their routine work.  At our house, the rule would have to be that they couldn't go over until their work was done, and the first thing that my parents would say when they saw the kid was 'Is your work done?' and if not they'd send them back home.  

Alternatively, would it be possible for the other kids to get their social time with grandparents when you are taking your daughter to her activities and then you do school with them at other times?  Most homeschoolers prefer a routine based during 'normal school hours' but there is no reason that you can't do school with them in the early morning, or evening, or Saturday, or whatever fits your needs and then let them hang with grandma on T/Th from 12-4 or whatever you need to do.  If their work is done, they go to grandma's, and if not then they go with you and work while they wait.  

You have to be willing to re-evaluate if things aren't working, and school, or dropping dd's activity, or other options all need to be on the table.  As others have said, it's about priorities.  I'd get a week-long day planner and block in the things that are inflexible and see how you can position everybody to get what they want and need around that.  If it doesn't work, then you know that you need to cut some of your inflexible activities.  For most of my kids' lives, spouse has traveled a lot and I've always had to make plans with the assumption that I could be managing it solo.  On one hand, we have a schedule that some people think is nuts.  On the other hand, there are activities that I never considered allowing the kids to do because I knew that it wouldn't fit without causing major upheaval for all of us.  Those decisions will be different for each family.  

[Shoeless]

What's the end goal for your daughter's sport? Is she Olympic level good or simply a talented hobbyist? Is there a hope that she'll be good enough to land a scholarship for college one day? I would not put all my eggs in that basket, if that is the case. A lot can change between now and college time. 

There are a LOT of family resources tied up in supporting her sport, and I wonder if it is to the detriment of the rest of the family. How much time is spent with the boys beyond chores, schoolwork, doctors? 

I firmly believe that the foundation for successful homeschooling is the relationship between parent and child. If you want to homeschool all the kids, then you need to do less outside activities and more at-home relationship building, IMO. 

I am not a sports or dance mom, but what I have seen from other families tells me that the parental load does not necessarily decrease as the kids get older. It shifts to other areas. You may have fewer uniforms to wash but you now have further to drive for competitions, more expensive camps to fund-raise, etc. 

What's the worst that happens if you bring everyone home and simply stop doing all these outside activities? 

[Heartstrings]

What about a car pool, using Uber or hiring a local mom to run kids around?  I used to do after school pick ups for a bit of extra cash, I would have done activity running, or activity pick up. 
 

Uber has a thing for teens now where you are guaranteed a highly rated, experienced driver to help ensure safety.  

[Green Bean]

Sending them to school will not solve the problems you are having. It is NEVER too late to take back your proper control over your children.
1- drop all the sports. Her and siblings’ educations are more important than any sport no matter what it is or how good she may be. Nothing should be taking over the family like that. It’s really rather selfish, honestly. Church and school only for a time. Everyone needs to get some proper perspective on what the priorities truly need to be.

2- talk to your dh about the boys. It’s time for Dad to lay down the law on how they treat you, his Queen. Would he allow another man to treat you that way? I think not. It’s a fine line between disrespect and abuse. Call it what it is: Abuse of Mom. Daily Dad reports on how they treated you during the day with serious consequences need to happen. Then you talk to the boys about how they need to learn to treat a woman. They want wives someday or girlfriends. No girl will take them if they treat them badly. Would they want a man to treat their sister how they treat you? I think not. This is not optional. God is clear on that.

3- talk to the in-laws very bluntly about getting on the same page. That is ridiculous.

4- Gently- School after a day out was not really a good idea. I’m sorry but asking a 6-yr old to go from fun and already tired to sitting still and thinking isn’t reasonable. I see your perspective, though.

5- And it’s time to have a MAJOR Come To Jesus lecture with those kids! Lay it out! Tell them the Abuse of Mom is over. The outside activities are over. The running to Grandma is over. The screens are over. School is NOT an option. It is their job. They can do their work or sit on a chair all day until they do. No one is too old/big for Time-Outs. It is also their job to learn how to properly treat people especially the members of their own family. They are KIDS, not grownups and they do not get to tell you what is what. Their feelings do not matter. They need to suck it up and help you especially now while you are sick. You are not here right now to be their friend, you are the boss. They don’t have to like you, but they do have to obey and respect you. You aren’t going to damage them or your future relationships by doing this. Then stick to your guns. God chastens those He loves, too. 

Edited October 12, 2023 by Green Bean

[Dianthus]

@Green Bean that helped me too!

Edited October 16, 2023 by Dianthus

[Dianthus]

Another idea. How much exercise are your boys getting? My boys do so much better with exercise. Ds likes to run and was doing so well when I'd get him up for a morning run. I have just been out of that habit. Honestly, I am so much better when i get the exercise too. We have put him on the treadmill a couple days this week, which is tricky because he has to be monitored. After 3 miles, he is so much more pleasant. Also, I have quit buying candy. Actually skipped buying our favorite caramel apple pops of the season because of how he will sneak and eat sugar, which I'm certain is detrimental to his behavior.

Edited October 16, 2023 by Dianthus

[Ting Tang]

Thank you all so much for the advice.  Here I am, ready to get ready for an orthodontist appointment at 9AM, and I already know I will be tired by the 6PM tae kwon do class, lol.  I think I am killing myself because yes, DD's sport is time consuming, but I am trying to be equal to my others.  So oldest DS's sport takes up as much time but is closer and is during the evenings.  The single blessing we have is I have managed to cram it all into the week, and our weekends are completely free.  The main reason my son started to do his sport is because during the pandemic, he appeared to be very depressed and started to make comments about his worthless life.  I said, that's it---  He was the most social one in school, though those were early years.  Yes, it is hard for me to give up extracurricular activities because my kids do not get socialization during the day with other kids.  But I am trying to do it all.  I thought it someone else does some of the teaching, maybe it would make me less stressed?  As for exercise, we have fitness equipment in the basement, but the boys mostly ride their bikes outside and play.  So I feel that is pretty adequate.  

But yes, the abuse of me must stop.  I only have one set of Grandparents to help, and they are the ones nextdoor, lol.  I rarely ask for babysitting since they do run nextdoor.  Anyway, I want to address it all particularly, but I am reading.  

[Doodlebug]

You can do something about this. Activities need to be evaluated in light of your most pressing responsibility - relationships and education. What I wouldn’t do is cast this dynamic as 90% a child problem and go torched earth on the children.  This dynamic isn’t their fault.   It needs to change, but not without a parent owning their responsibility for the current dynamic.  This form of disrespect from your children is not abuse.  While I agree with greenbean’s broader point re disrespect, you are not the victim of unruly children. The responsibility is yours, mama, utterly. I dont say that without knowing exactly how heavy it lands - but I know from experience that owning my responsibilities to my family produced the most change.  

You are literally teaching children how to go through their day, who is in charge, and what you expect of them.  All kids without structure and responsibilities are turds. So, get in there and lead by example.

Edited October 12, 2023 by Doodlebug

[8filltheheart]

37 minutes ago, Doodlebug said:

You can do something about this. Activities need to be evaluated in light of your most pressing responsibility - relationships and education. What I wouldn’t do is cast this dynamic as 90% a child problem and go torched earth on the children.  This dynamic isn’t their fault.   It needs to change, but not without a parent owning their responsibility for the current dynamic.  This form of disrespect from your children is not abuse.  While I agree with greenbean’s broader point re disrespect, you are not the victim of unruly children. The responsibility is yours, mama, utterly. I dont say that without knowing exactly how heavy it lands - but I know from experience that owning my responsibilities to my family produced the most change.  

You are literally teaching children how to go through their day, who is in charge, and what you expect of them.  All kids without structure and responsibilities are turds. So, get in there and lead by example.

+1 Absolute truth!

 

2 hours ago, Ting Tang said:

Yes, it is hard for me to give up extracurricular activities because my kids do not get socialization during the day with other kids.  But I am trying to do it all. 

I'm not sure my responses are worth the effort bc pts like this are 100% opposite of my parenting philosophy.  My thoughts on not socializing with other kids during the day is, well, of course they aren't bc they are supposed to be at home doing school.  Socializing during the day is not a necessity or a right for my kids.  School is our priority.  School is what we do during the day.  They don't get to have activities every night of the week.  They don't get to see friends every day.  That's life.  We prioritize activities by value and limit them to what doesn't impact our family negatively.  

For example, my 8th grader is a born extreme extrovert who thrives on performing.  We did 2 plays and then I pulled the plug on that pursuit.  Musical theater is a time suck.  It requires way too much time for our family to be viewed positively during the academic yr.  Summer.....different, if it doesn't interfere with our family plans.  She takes voice and performs in a choir.  She takes violin lessons and performs in an orchestra.  Those are less time consuming and partially meet her needs to perform musically.  It is what she is limited to bc of me.  She might thrive more if we added in musical theater, but I don't.  I'm momma and when momma doesn't thrive, the family doesn't thrive.  I absolutely do have to put my limitations in the forefront bc everything about our household function falls on me.  (The only thing my dh manages in our homelife is heavy duty yard work.)   

When we had a houseful of kids at home, they were limited to one activity and the activity had to overlap with other siblings.  No one got to do a heavy commitment just them activity.  It couldn't be done bc I could not go in multiple directions for different kids, do school, shop and cook, clean and do laundry, and remain a happy role model for my kids.  A tired, cranky mom who is overwhelmed by everything serves no one well.  

When you are in crisis and have to help others, you have to make sure that you put your oxygen mask on first so that you are able to breath in order to stay alive and help the others.  If you try to help the others without ensuring your ability to continue, everyone suffers bc you suffocate and they don't get help.   

[Ting Tang]

I definitely agree we/(myself) are at fault. I think our family dynamic of living nextdoor to my in-laws affects things---things I could never have foreseen ten years ago.  My two sister-in-laws on that side are public school teachers, and believe me, they (and my husband) feel it is very important for the kids to be around other kids.  So much centered around a school that allows for ease of making those friendships, such as being on a team or in the band, so sometimes it is appealing.  I get that doesn't happen for everyone.  I also victimize myself by reading comments online how homeschooled kids are abused, isolated, socially-backwards.  I know that isn't true, but I feel a need to cover my bases.  I am sometimes told about more things my kids could do or receiving suggestions, and it would be nearly impossible.  We've been having more heart-to-heart talks after Monday this week.  Everyone loves the flexibility of homeschooling, except when it comes to doing school at more flexible times that are not traditional school hours---so we have to make choices.  I think I have been extra stressed because every appointment requires travel, and today, I couldn't even get the orthodontist to do his next appointment at a decent hour.  They have few afterschool hours, which I cannot get, and we have to go every two weeks---things like that just don't help.  I am totally whining, and you all have been wonderful.  I have to get back to school.  🙂

[Clemsondana]

One other thing to consider as you try to find the right balance...years ago I told my kids that if they wanted to do the outside the house things that they were doing, then, especially when Dad was gone, we all needed to work together to make it happen.  We talked about the fact that my responsibility was to make sure that they were clean, fed, clothed, housed, and educated.  Everything else was extra, and absolutely did not have to happen, and couldn't happen if I couldn't manage the main things with bandwidth the spare.  We did not leave for their activity until their routine chores and school work were done.  If the activity was during the day, then certain things needed to be done before we left, or promptly when we got home or we couldn't do the next day's thing. 

My rule-follower didn't really need this and would generally do whatever I asked just because I asked.  My other child has missed many sessions of activities over the years, and at times we've limited involvement in team activities because we didn't feel like kid could be a reliable teammate.  But, over time, even thought it takes more managing, we have made progress on kid getting their work done on time, etc.  I also give the kids the responsibility for managing their own stuff for their activity.  I'll ask if they have their gear and may even mention 'do you have your hat/belt/easy to forget stuff?' but I don't chase it down for them.  If their uniform isn't in the laundry basket, it doesn't get washed.  Or they can wash it themselves.  I tell them that, while there are few things that I enjoy more than watching them do something that they love, it isn't my responsibility to manage the stuff - it isn't my activity.  I don't do it perfectly, and it only works as long as you are willing to let them miss the thing.  You can't care more than they do or you'll give in.  But, if you care more than they do, then you know that the activity can be dropped, or they can take a break.  

[Doodlebug]

1 hour ago, Ting Tang said:

I definitely agree we/(myself) are at fault. I think our family dynamic of living nextdoor to my in-laws affects things---things I could never have foreseen ten years ago.  My two sister-in-laws on that side are public school teachers, and believe me, they (and my husband) feel it is very important for the kids to be around other kids.  So much centered around a school that allows for ease of making those friendships, such as being on a team or in the band, so sometimes it is appealing.  I get that doesn't happen for everyone.  I also victimize myself by reading comments online how homeschooled kids are abused, isolated, socially-backwards.  I know that isn't true, but I feel a need to cover my bases.  I am sometimes told about more things my kids could do or receiving suggestions, and it would be nearly impossible.  We've been having more heart-to-heart talks after Monday this week.  Everyone loves the flexibility of homeschooling, except when it comes to doing school at more flexible times that are not traditional school hours---so we have to make choices.  I think I have been extra stressed because every appointment requires travel, and today, I couldn't even get the orthodontist to do his next appointment at a decent hour.  They have few afterschool hours, which I cannot get, and we have to go every two weeks---things like that just don't help.  I am totally whining, and you all have been wonderful.  I have to get back to school.  🙂

Being aware that living next door to your in-laws affects things... Being aware, generally speaking, of homeschool abuse scenarios and social needs as represented by your public schooling relatives... I think this represents a lot of fretting that isn't helping you, especially if you find yourself susceptible to suggestion in this stage of parenting. 

Your oldest runs to grandma's without asking.  So, get grandma on board - "Grandma, if it's before 1PM, please send him back home as he hasn't finished school work."  Get specific like this about the problem and make a plan.   

I would encourage you to lay down the "concerns" for a bit and prioritize consistent school times and relationships with your children.  Once you have a routine established life is SO MUCH EASIER.  As Clemsondana referenced above, when the kids are working with you, that enables you to consider opening your schedule to social activities.    

[Quarter Note]

Tingtang, I've been thinking for a few days now what I could say that would be helpful.  Just this:  You're not alone.  Sometimes the struggle is really too much.  You're a good mother, but sometimes, the combination of the mom's personality, the kids' personalities, and the outside situations make things unbearable.  

Remember:  often it's much more than just "homeschooling".  As a friend of mine said about a month ago, and my husband and I have been repeating to ourselves since then, "Parenting is brutal."

My best wishes to you.

[8filltheheart]

1 hour ago, Ting Tang said:

I also victimize myself by reading comments online how homeschooled kids are abused, isolated, socially-backwards.  I know that isn't true, but I feel a need to cover my bases.  

Victimized?

[Lecka]

I think it’s fine if they go to school.  But whether they go to school or not, it’s not too late for you to change how you parent and change the dynamics with grandparents.  
 

 

[Dianthus]

Is there a homeschool park /play group you could join for a once weekly or biweekly play time? Or could you organize something like that and drop the rest of your activities? Do you attend church where they could have social events or could you help organize more activities at your church if that is lacking? Or maybe just once a month, invite friends over for play or craft time? That would be fun, especially approaching the holidays. Your kids would have fun planning it.

 

Edited October 16, 2023 by Dianthus

[Dianthus]

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[Dianthus]

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[Dianthus]

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[Lecka]

I re-read everything.

 

My take is — put yourself and your husband first, and the overall family second.

 

Worry a lot less about what your kids want.  
 

I think you sound like a very giving person who wants to do things in a good way for your kids, but I think that can be too much of a good thing.  
 

What works for you as a person, a spouse, and a parent has to matter more, because you have a leadership role in the family, and your well-being directly affects your children.  
 

There’s no long-term way to skip to meeting their needs and not taking care of yourself and your marriage and the big picture of the family.

 

 

 

[kathyl]

3 hours ago, Lecka said:

.....

What works for you as a person, a spouse, and a parent has to matter more, because you have a leadership role in the family, and your well-being directly affects your children.  
.......

The above is exactly what I realized one day about my own situation.  Someone had to lead the family, and if dh wasn't going to do it - for whatever reason, doesn't really matter - then I was the de facto leader. 

Based on the following from your first post, I'd say you have to lead whether you want to or not.  And your kids would probably respect you more if you just did it.

"My husband is more authoritative than I am, but he earns the money for our family, and he can't be here all the time--as a farmer, he is gone days/nights seven days a week at certain times.  My kids don't really respect me."

[Not_a_Number]

Goodness, @Ting Tang. I'm sorry you're being put on the defensive because you prioritize the kids' social lives.

For what it's worth, we're a very academic family, and we spend TONS of time outside the house socializing with other kids, because that's what makes my kids happy and allows them to have warm, consistent friendships. I only have 2 kids. They start climbing up the walls and their relationship suffers if they only interact with each other. Different families are different. 

It sounds you're having a tough time balancing everything. That's OK. You're not doing it wrong. It's YOUR family and you need to do what's right for THEM. 

[Clarita]

@Ting Tang we have a lot of activities outside the home too, sports and outside classes. DH is also the bread winner of the family and yes most of the actual driving the children from one place to another, making sure dinner is on the table, the schoolwork does fall on me. DH can help in ways that does not affect his work. Him just being someone I can bounce my thoughts off of is help. Him talking to his mom about stuff is help. Him being a part of the decision and how we are going to make it work process is all helpful (it's our decision when it's not ideal, help us prioritize what's important for the family, he can help come up with and even be part of the solution sometimes).

Seeing my friends with children in school, my concern is you'd be in the same place sending them to public school. (Less grief from your SIL and DH I suppose about socializing.) My friends' kindergarteners get sent home with homework after being at school from 8am-2pm, so the schoolwork fight will still be there. Depending on the extracurriculars, those still mean you drive them to all the places, or you have several pick-up times for school on any given day.

 

[Dianthus]

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Edited October 16, 2023 by Dianthus