Possible article of interest: The Truth about College Costs (National Affairs)

[cintinative]

https://www.nationalaffairs.com/publications/detail/the-truth-about-college-costs?

Interesting!

Do you agree that people are paying less for college now (after discounts the college applies)?

"The fact that students are paying less for college than they did 15 years ago is deeply contrary to conventional wisdom. Yet college financial statements, Common Data Set disclosures, IRS Form 990s, and the annual tuition studies of higher-education industry groups verify it.

Of course, even mentioning to the parents of a school-aged child that college hasn't gotten appreciably more expensive since the late 1990s won't just provoke disagreement; it could start a fight. College is ruinously expensive. Everyone knows it. We know it even though we send our kids to college and are not ruined. We know it even though there are obviously not enough truly rich families to pay $50,000 per year for the 11 million students who attend our 2,600 four-year higher-education institutions. We know it even though professors are poorly paid, colleges are financially strapped, and every year a few more schools close their doors. We know that colleges cost over $50,000 a year — but they are somehow also running out of money.

How can this be?"

Edited September 29, 2023 by cintinative

[cintinative]

'Our collective dishonesty on matters of pricing causes harm in a host of ways. For one, the impression that college is ruinously expensive has induced unnecessary anxiety in millions of families and scared many students away from college entirely. It has also led to a confusing national conversation about student debt, since nobody can figure out what college really costs or whether students are paying too much. High published tuitions at non-profit colleges have also laid the groundwork for for-profit schools to charge wildly inflated prices, since their students' expectations of cost were anchored by the well-publicized sticker prices of private four-year schools."

[8filltheheart]

I went to college in the 80s.  I was able to work a part-time job and meet all of my expenses.  (Tuition was under $400/semester.)   I was fully independent paying for housing, food, books, tuition, etc.  There is no way a part-time job could manage that now.  I can't compare to costs in the 90s or early 2000s bc I had graduated and had babies/young kids in the 90s.  

ETA:  Though our oldest went to college in 2007.  He went away to college and we paid very little.  His younger siblings cannot go away to college unless they get huge scholarships bc room/board is so expensive.  So from 2007 to now....I disagree with the premise that costs have no gone up significantly.

Edited September 29, 2023 by 8filltheheart

[8filltheheart]

54 minutes ago, cintinative said:

 

"The fact that students are paying less for college than they did 15 years ago is deeply contrary to conventional wisdom. Yet college financial statements, Common Data Set disclosures, IRS Form 990s, and the annual tuition studies of higher-education industry groups verify it.

 

In closer reading, I think the premise of the article is flawed.  Tuition, especially at public Us, is not the burdensome cost.  (Tuition at privates, otoh, can be outrageously high.) Food/housing costs do not show up on tax forms.  (I need to stop posting while distracted.  This post is a mess.)

Edited September 29, 2023 by 8filltheheart

[cintinative]

@8filltheheart I agree room and board is insane.  Also, I don't know what to make of this author saying that tuition really hasn't gone up that much because it was inflated to begin with and they just offer discounts.  I suppose I have heard people say things along those lines--privates aren't really that much more than state schools because they offer aid/tuition reduction. However, when I have filled out calculators on those college's websites, they are still twice as much or more than the state schools. 

[silver]

1 hour ago, cintinative said:

@8filltheheart I agree room and board is insane.  Also, I don't know what to make of this author saying that tuition really hasn't gone up that much because it was inflated to begin with and they just offer discounts.  I suppose I have heard people say things along those lines--privates aren't really that much more than state schools because they offer aid/tuition reduction. However, when I have filled out calculators on those college's websites, they are still twice as much or more than the state schools. 

I think it depends on what state you're in. Where I live, our public colleges and universities don't have any guaranteed "get above this GPA or that test score and get $xx in merit aid" deal. There are some scholarships, but they're extremely competitive from what I understand (or very specific such as 'for students from XYZ high school who are majoring in ABC'). Our state also has high tuition compared to states that we border. It's the point where going to an out of state public will likely be cheaper than an in state public, due to lower tuition, reciprocity, and merit aid. We make too much to get need-based aid from publics (in state or out of state), but, according the net price calculators I've run, most private schools consider us in need and will give us grants. The private school grants combined with more scholarships/discounts given mean that many privates I've looked into give me a net price on par with (or lower than) our state flagship. It makes me angry that the administrators at our state publics are wringing their hands at decreasing enrollment and how many of the brightest in our state go out of state yet they don't do anything to try to make it more affordable for a middle class kid to stay in state. 

Regarding the claim that, after discounts, tuition has not gone up, I'm not sure I agree with that. When I went to college, I went to an out of state public. I had the best scholarship that was available to out of state students. My kids can get a legacy scholarship to that same (still out of state) school. That legacy scholarship is better than what I received. Yet tuition+fees+room+board has gone up twice as much as inflation if you compare what my parents paid when I went and what my kids would pay (with a better scholarship) if they were to go now. It's the same with the university my husband went to. Just looking at tuition, not room and board, it's gone up twice as fast as inflation, but they don't offer any more scholarships/discounts than they did when he went. My state tracks tuition at the public universities compared to personal income per capita. When I graduated high school, tuition was 16.7% of income, now it's 24.7%. I'm sure the increase would be higher if fees/room+board were also included.

[BusyMom5]

I have 2 in college right now.

Kid 1- full tuition and room scholarship 

Kid 2- most of tuition is covered.  Room and required meal plan is over 5K a semester and it's crappy food!  I figured up the cost per day- around $25 for food.  It's fast food/ cafeteria quality and my kid hates it 

[Shoeless]

On 9/29/2023 at 11:55 AM, cintinative said:

@8filltheheart I agree room and board is insane.  Also, I don't know what to make of this author saying that tuition really hasn't gone up that much because it was inflated to begin with and they just offer discounts.  I suppose I have heard people say things along those lines--privates aren't really that much more than state schools because they offer aid/tuition reduction. However, when I have filled out calculators on those college's websites, they are still twice as much or more than the state schools. 

I went to college in 1990. Tuition, room, board, fees, etc was $5k a year. When I run an inflation calculator for then vs now, $5k equals about $11k. I cannot send my son to that same school for $11k for tuition, room, board, etc. It's $26k now, with $16k of that to live in the same average dorm that I lived in. The dining halls were updated and look very posh, but the students gripe that the food stinks. Who knows...

There's a private school in town that has a sticker price of $45k a year. Assuming scholarships stack, assuming my kid gets a perfect SAT score (ha!), assuming he lives at home, assuming he gets the max scholarships available, tuition still comes out to $20k a year, double the cost of the state school, (before any possible scholarships at state u). 

I honestly have no idea how middle class people afford this without taking on tons of debt. Is that what everyone does, they just quietly take on debt for their kids and hope for the best? 

[kokotg]

I just attempted to deep dive this based on the schools my husband and I attended, which happen to be both examples of a private LAC and a public university AND schools my kids have applied and been accepted to, so that I'm familiar with current costs and aid packages. I didn't get far in my UGA deep dive, because I can't find the figures on room and board from the early 90s. I went to UGA during the golden age of the Hope Scholarship, when it was brand new and still covered tuition and fees and came with a book allowance for anyone with a B average (there was an income cap at that time and there isn't now, IIRC--it was, I believe, fairly high, though...ah! found it--it was 100,000, but only for a couple of years before it went away). I was only in the dorms for one year and after that my rent was never more than around $200/month. I worked part time from my second semester on. My Dad sent me $250/month, all direct college costs were covered by Hope, and I paid for the rest with what I made working mostly minimum wage jobs. Today it looks like UGA tuition + fees + room and board is $22,426. But Hope is still around and still covers full tuition for the vast majority of students who get into UGA (there are two levels now--to get the full tuition there are higher test score and GPA requirements...but most kids who don't meet them wouldn't be admitted to UGA these days). So room and board plus fees is $12,636. Let's say I could have lived on that $250/month from my dad and then another $100. So that comes out to $3150 for 9 months. Inflation calculator tells me that's $6615 in today's dollars. It's all very inexact, but suggests costs have indeed risen a lot faster than inflation. Public colleges are not the ones who are heavily discounting through merit aid, though.

But when I look at my husband's private LAC (Oberlin) things look a lot different. I don't have the exact figure for Oberlin costs from the early 90s, either, but I know it was around $30,000 because that number stuck in my head as an outrageously large sum of money for college. Today Oberlin's direct costs are around $83,000. My inflation calculator tells me that $30,000 in 1994 would equal around $64,000 today. But! Oberlin hands out a lot of merit aid. The past couple of years they've been handing out renewable $10,000/year scholarships to everyone, so right off the bat you're down to $73,000. A quick look at last year's College Confidential Oberlin thread shows that merit scholarships in the $20,000-30,000 range are very, very common. So it seems that it is indeed very likely that one can get the OOP cost at Oberlin lower than it was in the early 90s when adjusted for inflation. 

But then! I came across this when looking into all of this...an article in the Washington Monthly from 2013:

Quote

Oberlin, with its progressive history and long-held commitment to social justice, was the last to cave. By the early 1990s, the college’s financial fortunes were flagging. The school was spending an increasing share of its budget on need-based financial aid but was having trouble nailing down a class with the quality of students it was seeking. Oberlin found itself admitting more than two-thirds of the students who applied—an unusually high number for a college of its stature.

Administrators there came to the conclusion that their aid practices were not sustainable. “I suspect that for many students our financial aid offers are less attractive than those of other schools—that our financial aid policy may be a primary cause of our loss of market power,” Alfred MacKay, Oberlin’s acting president, wrote in 1991 in an article that ran in a campus publication, entitled “The College May Need to Change Its Strategy.”

It took another two years for the whole campus to come onboard. In late 1993, following months of intense discussions, the faculty governing body signed off on a plan for the college to start using merit aid to pursue the students it most desired. In addition, the school became “need aware,” meaning that it would no longer ignore a student’s ability to pay when offering admissions.

At the end of the decade, Nancy Dye, Oberlin’s then president, argued that the school had to ramp up its merit aid program even further. According to accounts in the student newspaper of the campus-wide discussions that occurred at the time, some faculty members objected. “What I’m afraid of is that we’ll end up providing a discount to wealthy students and end up with the reputation as the type of ‘country club’ school we swore we’d never be,” Gary Kornblith, a history professor, stated during a general faculty meeting on the president’s proposal.

https://washingtonmonthly.com/2013/08/18/merit-aid-madness/

I haven't read the whole thing yet, because it's long, but it's relevant so probably I should go read it when I have time.

Anyway, upshot is that back when my husband applied, this debate about merit aid was raging and he might have actually been in the last class to apply before they started offering it. Before that Oberlin didn't give out merit aid at all but met demonstrated need for all accepted students AND was need blind. As for becoming the "country club school we swore we'd never be"? Well, 8% of Oberlin students were pell-eligible in 2020....that number is about twice as high at a lot of peer need blind LACs that only do need based aid like Hamilton or Amherst. I will say that my pell-eligible kid who was accepted to Oberlin was offered a really excellent combo of need based and merit aid; it was actually his best FA offer. But overall it seems that Oberlin might be slightly more affordable to upper class/upper middle class families than it was in the early 90s...but it's also less accessible at all to many lower/working class families whose kids who would have been admitted and supported financially back then are now turned away for being too expensive. 

[catz]

Interesting about Oberlin.  My kid got their max merit package there when he was admitted in 2019.  It was still going to run us about 45K a year.  I guess that is more affordable than 80K.  But didn't seem worth a 60K+ premium over 4 years over what we could pay at an excellent flagship.  (ETA and to be clear that would have been a difficult stretch for us, especially with 2 kids)  

Edited October 3, 2023 by catz

[kokotg]

46 minutes ago, catz said:

Interesting about Oberlin.  My kid got their max merit package there when he was admitted in 2019.  It was still going to run us about 45K a year.  I guess that is more affordable than 80K.  But didn't seem worth a 60K+ premium over 4 years over what we could pay at an excellent flagship.

I've always said if we made twice as much money my kids would absolutely be going to in state publics. Particularly with hope scholarships and with two excellent state flagships to pick from (assuming they get in), it's a very tough deal for most middle to upper class families in GA to pass up. Which does make me wonder about somewhere like Oberlin's strategy...they're still not discounting enough to attract kids away from public universities in most cases; it seems like the main effect of offering merit to is lure away kids who'd otherwise be full pay at coastal schools--but at the cost of less economic diversity and fewer low income kids. I think things might be different at less selective schools that genuinely are competing on price with public schools (at least for the kids they really want)...but how sustainable that is long term for those schools remains to be seen. I don't know. American colleges are a big ol' fascinating, sometimes lovable, mess. 

[8filltheheart]

16 hours ago, Shoeless said:

I honestly have no idea how middle class people afford this without taking on tons of debt. Is that what everyone does, they just quietly take on debt for their kids and hope for the best? 

Taking on debt for college is a choice.  Most families we have known over the yrs do not take on debt for their kids.  Most kids do not go away for college.  They live at home and commute to either the local U or attend the local CC.  Some start at the CC and then transfer to the 4 yr.  As a matter of fact, our kids going away to college was more unusual than the norm.

The scenario for our family has been that our familial contribution has been expected to be between $28-36k/yr.  (It has depended on the child/#of children living at home and/or in college.)  Regardless, over 8 kids that works out to an absurd amt for a family living off an engineer's salary.   Our kids have attended college in various ways--3 went away to 4 yr Us (2 on full-rides, 1 on some scholarship but costs were way cheaper when he went to school, so we pd something like $3K/semester), 1 went away to a CC (the only OTA program in the state was 4 hrs away from home.  Tuition and living in a townhouse with other OTA students was inexpensive), 1 is a sr this yr living at home and commuting.  Our current high school sr will either commute to the local CC or the 4 yr (waiting on her SAT scores to see if she can get enough automatic scholarship $$ to attend the 4 yr.)

The only unknown in the mix is our youngest.  She is a musician.  If she decides to pursue a conservatory or a music degree, I'm not sure what that entails.  We haven't really thought about it much bc she has also talked about being an electrical engineer.  We have found 1 university where a very select (as in extremely tiny #) number of string students are awarded full tuition scholarships.  Opportunities like that is where my research will focus if that is what she is thinking 2 yrs from now.  (She is currently only an 8th grader.) 

[catz]

2 hours ago, 8filltheheart said:

The only unknown in the mix is our youngest.  She is a musician.  If she decides to pursue a conservatory or a music degree, I'm not sure what that entails.  We haven't really thought about it much bc she has also talked about being an electrical engineer.  We have found 1 university where a very select (as in extremely tiny #) number of string students are awarded full tuition scholarships.  Opportunities like that is where my research will focus if that is what she is thinking 2 yrs from now.  (She is currently only an 8th grader.) 

We just got through the music while hoping for merit process for the 2nd time.  It's pretty rough for popular tracks. One of my kids got a very unusual scholarship from a SOM at the state flagship.  So that made that one a good deal.  The other is at an urban private for a little less than our flagship.  We were super delighted with that offer for her.  

Having watched the process twice and having my kid work with a college prof, admissions is a bit of a game.  Departments are trying to balance their budgets and figure out who will actually be likely to attend and pay what they are expected to pay and fill out their ensembles and studios.  Not unusual to get grilled about what other schools you are applying at.  I mean it's certainly talent based.  But I suspect most people out auditioning are well prepared to succeed.  And having looked at 20-30 music programs at this point, even the most competitive programs have a range in their musicians.  My kid that double degree found out some music faculty/teachers aren't enthusiastic about their musicians splitting their time.

Full tuition merit is I'm sure less rare if you are playing something more exotic - upright bass, oboe, viola, harp, etc.  It's nice you found one opportunity that way. 

[8filltheheart]

5 minutes ago, catz said:

We just got through the music while hoping for merit process for the 2nd time.  It's pretty rough for popular tracks. One of my kids got a very unusual scholarship from a SOM at the state flagship.  So that made that one a good deal.  The other is at an urban private for a little less than our flagship.  We were super delighted with that offer for her.  

Having watched the process twice and having my kid work with a college prof, admissions is a bit of a game.  Departments are trying to balance their budgets and figure out who will actually be likely to attend and pay what they are expected to pay and fill out their ensembles and studios.  Not unusual to get grilled about what other schools you are applying at.  I mean it's certainly talent based.  But I suspect most people out auditioning are well prepared to succeed.  And having looked at 20-30 music programs at this point, even the most competitive programs have a range in their musicians.  My kid that double degree found out some music faculty/teachers aren't enthusiastic about their musicians splitting their time.

Full tuition merit is I'm sure less rare if you are playing something more exotic - upright bass, oboe, viola, harp, etc.  It's nice you found one opportunity that way. 

I'm not sure I would call it an opportunity.  Only a total of 27 string players are accepted for all levels, including grad students, total......so if no one is graduating, there are no openings.   The one advantage that dd does have is that she is an advanced student (she is taking all high school level courses as an 8th grader.)  I'm hoping that she will qualify as NMF or other freshman admission scholarships that are completely unrelated to music.   I am hoping that will open up more schools than our local 4 yr U bc it really wouldn't be a good fit for a violinist.

[catz]

16 minutes ago, 8filltheheart said:

I'm not sure I would call it an opportunity.  Only a total of 27 string players are accepted for all levels, including grad students, total......so if no one is graduating, there are no openings.   The one advantage that dd does have is that she is an advanced student (she is taking all high school level courses as an 8th grader.)  I'm hoping that she will qualify as NMF or other freshman admission scholarships that are completely unrelated to music.   I am hoping that will open up more schools than our local 4 yr U bc it really wouldn't be a good fit for a violinist.

LOL well that sounds about right.  My daughter that just did auditions also played violin for like 13 years in a regional program w/orchestra so we know lots of violinists who have been through the process.  Violin is pretty nuts and competitive!  But I have to say, faculty is pretty great everywhere.  More places to have a good music experience than the short list that typically floats around with the right teacher fit.  

Edited October 3, 2023 by catz

[kokotg]

55 minutes ago, 8filltheheart said:

I'm not sure I would call it an opportunity.  Only a total of 27 string players are accepted for all levels, including grad students, total......so if no one is graduating, there are no openings.   The one advantage that dd does have is that she is an advanced student (she is taking all high school level courses as an 8th grader.)  I'm hoping that she will qualify as NMF or other freshman admission scholarships that are completely unrelated to music.   I am hoping that will open up more schools than our local 4 yr U bc it really wouldn't be a good fit for a violinist.

We found ourselves pleasantly surprised by a couple of FA packages that my clarinet kid was offered. I think music schools (at least music schools within bigger colleges or universities) tend to get more creative about stacking music and academic scholarships to attract the musicians they want...I gather that families are generally more reluctant to pay a lot/take on debt for music school, probably both because grad school is usually in the future and because, well...it's music school. But, yeah, I worried a lot about what that kid's options would be, but even the school that I thought there was no way we could afford based on the NPC came back with a very competitive offer. And more than one of his acceptances told us in so many words to ask for more money if that would be what would keep him from going there. And my kid was not a tippy top clarinet player who could get in anywhere he wanted...but he found a few very solid but also not tippy top music schools where he clicked with the clarinet prof and where he was good enough that they would have been thrilled to have him. 

[8filltheheart]

Thanks @kokotg. That's encouraging. This a world I know absolutely nothing about.  Never in a million yrs would I have thought that when she asked to learn to play when she was 8 that it would have meant anything more than that. She is a good violinist, though, and this yr she made concertmaster for her youth orchestra. That has motivated her in that direction a lot. 

But, she also went to engineering camp this summer and has expressed an interest in EE, so who knows. She's an 8th grader. 🙂 But, if she wants to pursue music, I feel like I need to start having at least a minimal understanding of what is involved bc I have read enough on these forums to know it is a much different process.

Edited October 3, 2023 by 8filltheheart

[Roadrunner]

My DS’s offers from privates were all over the place.  I wouldn’t call any of them generous. CA public gave us middle class scholarship and cost of attendance at a UC with that scholarship is half the most generous private offer. So we know the only way my DS2 goes to private is my DH quitting his second job. Counterintuitive but most definitely financially a better move. What it says about the system is another question. 

[frogger]

I think the vital misunderstanding is that merit scholarships only apply to full pay students. Yes, it makes it cheaper for full pay students so it is true that no one really pays the full amount or very very few do but the middle class loses need based aid for every dollar of scholarship they get since they no longer "need" it. That right there, took all my kids out of that game since LACs greatly overestimate what I am willing to sacrifice for them. No thank you. 

[ScoutTN]

1 hour ago, frogger said:

I think the vital misunderstanding is that merit scholarships only apply to full pay students. Yes, it makes it cheaper for full pay students so it is true that no one really pays the full amount or very very few do but the middle class loses need based aid for every dollar of scholarship they get since they no longer "need" it. That right there, took all my kids out of that game since LACs greatly overestimate what I am willing to sacrifice for them. No thank you. 

Can you explain this? It is not always true, in our experience.

My Dd’s not-selective public U gives merit scholarships based on scores and also based on major. These stack with any FA offer. Similar scholarships stacked with FA/need-based offers at the two privates Dd applied to.

[8filltheheart]

2 hours ago, ScoutTN said:

Can you explain this? It is not always true, in our experience.

My Dd’s not-selective public U gives merit scholarships based on scores and also based on major. These stack with any FA offer. Similar scholarships stacked with FA/need-based offers at the two privates Dd applied to.

Our experience has been the same as Frogger's. Institutional grants have been reduced almost dollar to dollar by scholarship awards at privates, and our family's contribution has remained close to identical. The only case where that hasn't been the case is when the scholarship award has been bigger than institutional award and they received the larger award.

The publics haven't given institutional grants, so merit is it and scholarships can stack.

Edited October 4, 2023 by 8filltheheart

[frogger]

2 hours ago, ScoutTN said:

Can you explain this? It is not always true, in our experience.

My Dd’s not-selective public U gives merit scholarships based on scores and also based on major. These stack with any FA offer. Similar scholarships stacked with FA/need-based offers at the two privates Dd applied to.

8filltheheart explained it well. The public universities are a little different than the private LACs like the article mentions. The public universities have more realistic prices to begin with and scholarships can stack but the need based aid is (in my experience) Federal or State and not institutional. Things like Pell Grants or subsidized loans. 

LACs give a lot more institutional "need based" aid because of their inflated prices but it is based on what they think you can afford and it isn't neccesarily Federal or State aid. Therefore since it is based on what you "need" they just figure you need less if you get a scholarship. 

Edited October 4, 2023 by frogger

[pehp]

That’s a pretty fascinating article. 
 

We’re not there yet, so I don’t know. But I agree that the sticker prices these days cause anxiety, and the entire process seems confusing and opaque. 
 

I went to William and Mary (in state) and sticker price was $10k/year—all-inclusive. My parents paid about half that, maybe less—so about $15k-20k for all four years.
 

Now it is about $40,000/year. 
 

I’ve run NPCs all over the place and at W&M we’d basically pay full price, which is (& I loved that school), ludicrous to me. It’s all over the map. Generally the NPCs come back between $20-$35k as our expected contribution, but they’ve been as low as $8K and as high as $55k, depending on the school. 
 

It just seemed a lot *simpler* when I was in school. 

[MagistraKennedy]

On 11/21/2023 at 6:56 PM, pehp said:

 

It just seemed a lot *simpler* when I was in school. 

This right here. 

I went to a small private college in state --from the minute I drove into campus, I knew it was "the one". I looked at another small private college and didn't like the vibe (ironically, it's a college that I would LOVE my senior to consider, but she refuses, as it's 20 miles from our house!). I must have applied to the state flagship, because I distinctly remember looking at the housing application.  My husband's experience was similar. He had two small private colleges on his radar, and that's where he applied. 

 

[pehp]

On 11/26/2023 at 9:30 AM, MagistraKennedy said:

This right here. 

I went to a small private college in state --from the minute I drove into campus, I knew it was "the one". I looked at another small private college and didn't like the vibe (ironically, it's a college that I would LOVE my senior to consider, but she refuses, as it's 20 miles from our house!). I must have applied to the state flagship, because I distinctly remember looking at the housing application.  My husband's experience was similar. He had two small private colleges on his radar, and that's where he applied. 

 

Same. I applied Early Decision to W&M, got accepted, that was that. My husband applied to FIVE schools which seemed like a lot back then. We just didn’t shop around, and my parents would have laughed me out of the house if I’d suggested anything that wasn’t in VA or an adjacent state! I wonder if it’s because things seem more competitive now, and that makes it all more complicated.

IDK but I miss the simpler way. 

[Shoeless]

44 minutes ago, pehp said:

Same. I applied Early Decision to W&M, got accepted, that was that. My husband applied to FIVE schools which seemed like a lot back then. We just didn’t shop around, and my parents would have laughed me out of the house if I’d suggested anything that wasn’t in VA or an adjacent state! I wonder if it’s because things seem more competitive now, and that makes it all more complicated.

IDK but I miss the simpler way. 

I applied to 3 schools. It was a pretty simple process, even considering I was a music major and had auditions on top of the regular application. 

Oh wait, my father insisted I also apply to Harvard, even though there was no way I was ever going to get in and couldn't pay for it even if they accepted me. So that makes 4. 

Spoiler: I did not get in to Harvard. 🙃

[MagistraKennedy]

On 11/27/2023 at 11:51 PM, pehp said:

 

IDK but I miss the simpler way. 

Same. We applied to 8 this year (one more to go) and honestly, in hindsight, I think I would have liked to whittled it down to 6. 
 

[pehp]

2 hours ago, MagistraKennedy said:

Same. We applied to 8 this year (one more to go) and honestly, in hindsight, I think I would have liked to whittled it down to 6. 
 

It seems to extend into graduate programs as well. My niece applied to at least a dozen law schools. I applied to one. It just feels like so MUCH!! 

[SanDiegoMom]

2 hours ago, pehp said:

It seems to extend into graduate programs as well. My niece applied to at least a dozen law schools. I applied to one. It just feels like so MUCH!! 

My daughter applied to I think 12-14 law schools.  Accepted to one, waitlisted at a couple, rejected from the rest.  She did get accepted off the waitlist however, and she's there now and so grateful! But it was such an anxious year!

[MagistraKennedy]

3 hours ago, pehp said:

It seems to extend into graduate programs as well. My niece applied to at least a dozen law schools. I applied to one. It just feels like so MUCH!! 

Ahem --- don't make me cry! Pretty sure my daughter will need graduate school. Sigh. 

[pehp]

2 hours ago, SanDiegoMom said:

My daughter applied to I think 12-14 law schools.  Accepted to one, waitlisted at a couple, rejected from the rest.  She did get accepted off the waitlist however, and she's there now and so grateful! But it was such an anxious year!

I bet! I think it was really stressful for our niece also. And right now the job market is saturated, so finding a summer job has been tough as all the law students are competing for a few slots. After my 1L year I took an amazing unpaid internship with the US Attorneys office and then after 2L year secured a great job with the law firm that eventually hired me. It didn’t seem hard then, but it seems harder now. 

[Dmmetler]

On 12/2/2023 at 4:13 PM, MagistraKennedy said:

Ahem --- don't make me cry! Pretty sure my daughter will need graduate school. Sigh. 

The good news is that for grad school, the faculty advisors and school do most of the heavy lifting (L is starting the grad school search process)-which is good because being guidance counselor for high school kids is hard enough!

[Dmmetler]

On 12/2/2023 at 5:22 PM, pehp said:

I bet! I think it was really stressful for our niece also. And right now the job market is saturated, so finding a summer job has been tough as all the law students are competing for a few slots. After my 1L year I took an amazing unpaid internship with the US Attorneys office and then after 2L year secured a great job with the law firm that eventually hired me. It didn’t seem hard then, but it seems harder now. 

My brother is a staff attorney for a disabilities law center that offers unpaid internships, and they get piles of applications for every summer.  It lets them filter to the kids who really have a passion for public service law and want to eventually work in a similar setting-but it also means a lot of great kids who are possibly a little less passionate or just have a slightly less stacked resume don't get the chance, even though they might be great in the field. It's especially hard for ND folks who might struggle in communicating face to face, but are awesome researchers and would be a real asset. 

[pehp]

On 2/2/2024 at 12:57 PM, Dmmetler said:

My brother is a staff attorney for a disabilities law center that offers unpaid internships, and they get piles of applications for every summer.  It lets them filter to the kids who really have a passion for public service law and want to eventually work in a similar setting-but it also means a lot of great kids who are possibly a little less passionate or just have a slightly less stacked resume don't get the chance, even though they might be great in the field. It's especially hard for ND folks who might struggle in communicating face to face, but are awesome researchers and would be a real asset. 

Yeah-that is hard. And sometimes the more “unlikely” candidates are the best fit for the position. 💕 The saturation is a real issue. I absolutely lucked out in many ways, but I’d sort of discourage either of my kids from law school unless I knew they were going into it with completely open eyes as to the realities of post-school practice and the competition. 

Edited February 6 by pehp