construction management degree

[kbutton]

Tell me what you know, especially about the range of job options available if you have one.

DS is very hands-on, and he can't get clarity about what he could do with such a degree to know if he wants to pursue such a degree.

[TechWife]

Has he seen the Occupational Outlook Handbook from the Dept. of Labor? It’s a great resource that’s been around as long as I remember. When I was in high school I got one every year - they were like really thick phone books! Now, it’s online so it’s much easier to get to. I suggest he look there, searching for construction, construction manager and project manager to see what comes up. 

 

Edited June 28, 2023 by TechWife

[wintermom]

I would expect one to have a solid background in a construction related trade, and a degree like this would allow an experienced journeyperson to then transition into a project manager role. I could be totally off base, though. 

[Shelydon]

A friend's daughter just graduated with that degree, and has a job right out of school paying $100K. Her university provided two or three internships with local companies while she was getting her degree

[kbutton]

1 hour ago, Shelydon said:

A friend's daughter just graduated with that degree, and has a job right out of school paying $100K. Her university provided two or three internships with local companies while she was getting her degree

Do you know what her job is like?

2 hours ago, TechWife said:

Has he seen the Occupational Outlook Handbook from the Dept. of Labor? It’s a great resource that’s been around as long as I remember. When I was in high school I got one every year - they were like really thick phone books! Now, it’s online so it’s much easier to get to. I suggest he look there, searching for construction, construction manager and project manager to see what comes up. 

He wants BTDT information about the degree.

[kbutton]

Theoretical information + ASD + parents not in the industry is not satisfying. It's like having never seen a doctor, ever, and trying to envision all the possible things a doctor could do--there are so many different things that one doctor's job is not like another's.

[Lecka]

We know someone who — works in a trailer on a job site and works on a computer, and I believe he is buying things and figuring out what to buy.  
 

We don’t know enough about it to be told too many details.  
 

His starting salary was $60,000 in a LCOL area and expected to go up from there.  

[Faith-manor]

My niece in law has a construction management degree from Michigan State U. She works for a huge, commercial construction firm on the beast coast. The degree is designed not so much for small business contractors, but for management of huge projects, big budget projects. It is all about coordinating all of the details, the subs, the orders, the bids, etc. She spends hours on the phone doing things like telling an art museum that a certain Italian marble for their staircase is totally NOT in their budget. Some of her projects will have hundreds of workers from numerous companies. It is a tremendous amount of business management that is specific to one industry, and yet also requires a lot of construction, technical knowledge. Sometimes she gets antsy because she doesn't get to build anything. This usually causes her to start some sort of remodeling project at their house so she can be hands on.

She took five years to get her degree, and got hired with a smaller firm first, but also on then east coast. She got a good salary and reasonable benefits. After about three years of experience, she was able to get in with her current company. Better salary. Better benefits. She has been promoted several times in the 18 years since graduation.

[Amira]

I have a couple of family members who earned degrees in construction management in the 80s and 90s.  One is getting close to retirement and he has always been able to find a good job.  He was laid off twice in 35 years and found a job in the area he wanted to stay in within a month both times.  He has been a project manager, but for the last ten years, he has mostly been doing scheduling at a larger construction firm, so he spends a lot of time in the office but also on projects sites. Business management is an essential aspect of the degree.

The other person worked as a land acquisition manager for a large home builder in Philadelphia.  He had several job offers out of college in construction management.  He ended up going to law school a couple of years later and worked in construction law afterward and taught construction law, but he has moved on to other careers.  That was not because CM was a bad choice, but that other opportunities opened up.  I think CM is a good degree, and the unique combo of CM and a law degree was especially valuable. 

The State Department hires construction managers every so often.  That can be a really interesting job if you want to be overseas.

[PeterPan]

5 hours ago, kbutton said:

DS is very hands-on, and he can't get clarity about what he could do with such a degree to know if he wants to pursue such a degree.

Total aside, but I recently met the construction manager for the Intel plants being built in the US. There's definitely crazy potential. I think though it would be so easy to get caught up in details that you miss the big picture. Someone is managing the overall project, bidding, HANDLING PEOPLE, solving people problems. Someone else is physically doing the labor. On smaller jobs a construction manager might *occasionally* do physical labor like bringing a trailer with something, but in general they're more what my dh calls "desk jockeys." So I'm not sure how your ds is going from "I like to work with my hands" to "I want to manage construction jobs." 

The question will be really basic in a way: whether he has the people skills to do that kind of work. I don't know the answer to that. I'm just saying I wouldn't start with whether he can do the math or bid or understand. In his case, I would look at the soft skills and personality necessary and say yes he's on track to grow into that type of person or no he's the type of person who ought to be DOING the work. I don't know the answer to that.

Can he go shadow with some local construction/engineering firms? This is a totally normal thing to do at this stage and by the end of a day or two of getting to know your ds the person could probably give him some chaste advice. I can tell you my dh has young men shadow him and he can size them up pretty quickly and tell where they're going and what will fit them. Anyone who is in the industry who does a lot of hiring will be able to figure it out pretty quickly and give him good advice. 

What has his summer work been so far? How has it fit? 

[kbutton]

4 hours ago, Lecka said:

We know someone who — works in a trailer on a job site and works on a computer, and I believe he is buying things and figuring out what to buy.  

4 hours ago, Faith-manor said:

My niece in law has a construction management degree from Michigan State U. She works for a huge, commercial construction firm on the beast coast.

3 hours ago, Amira said:

He has been a project manager, but for the last ten years, he has mostly been doing scheduling at a larger construction firm, so he spends a lot of time in the office but also on projects sites. Business management is an essential aspect of the degree.

All of these things are in the range of what we expected, but several people (former vocational teacher, etc.) are telling him it doesn't have to be this kind of job either. It can be hands-on. But then they don't really flesh out what the other options are.

His boss has a construction management degree from what I understand, and he's a custom home builder--expensive houses but only a few per year. He subs a lot out, but he direct hires his finish carpenters (DS is an apprentice to the only other one in the business). My son doesn't feel like he can bother him right now because the boss has some not great things going on at home right now.

[kbutton]

1 hour ago, PeterPan said:

#1 On smaller jobs a construction manager might *occasionally* do physical labor like bringing a trailer with something, but in general they're more what my dh calls "desk jockeys." So I'm not sure how your ds is going from "I like to work with my hands" to "I want to manage construction jobs." 

#2 The question will be really basic in a way: whether he has the people skills to do that kind of work. I don't know the answer to that. I'm just saying I wouldn't start with whether he can do the math or bid or understand. In his case, I would look at the soft skills and personality necessary and say yes he's on track to grow into that type of person or no he's the type of person who ought to be DOING the work. I don't know the answer to that.

#3 Can he go shadow with some local construction/engineering firms? This is a totally normal thing to do at this stage and by the end of a day or two of getting to know your ds the person could probably give him some chaste advice. I can tell you my dh has young men shadow him and he can size them up pretty quickly and tell where they're going and what will fit them. Anyone who is in the industry who does a lot of hiring will be able to figure it out pretty quickly and give him good advice. 

#4 What has his summer work been so far? How has it fit? 

Repeating this part for convenience...His boss has a construction management degree from what I understand, and he's a custom home builder--expensive houses but only a few per year. He subs a lot out, but he direct hires his finish carpenters (DS is an apprentice to the only other one in the business). My son doesn't feel like he can bother him right now because the boss has some not great things going on at home right now.

To your questions, which I numbered rather quoting in pieces...

1--he's probably not going to, but something more hybrid would probably be okay with him.

2--it's probably do-able, but I am not sure at what personal cost. He needs his downtime. And...#1. The people who know him at the career center all want him to do big things, and they are people who took the time to get to know him and see a lot of students go through their halls. He excelled there, and they see his IEP to know what his challenges are. Awards, tech prep scholarship, etc. His first year teacher was new to education but had been a builder for decades, and he treated my son like a peer. But he died (got his cancer diagnosis just as he signed on to teach), so he doesn't have that mentorship right now. Additionally, my son's peers liked it when he was in class, and he tended to be able to get them to get off their bums and do stuff. He really liked showing them how to do stuff--it wouldn't surprise me if he considered teaching after being in industry for a while.

3 and 4--Yes, if he can spare the time. He's working two jobs and doing stuff on the side, lol! He spent the school year working 24 hours as an apprentice finish carpenter, and they wanted to hire him FT, but the high interest rates have dramatically reduced all construction locally for now. Since he's still at three days per week, he picked up two days at a local garden center where he's worked other summers. He's doing some work on the side as well. 

At work, he works with the old curmudgeon subcontractors quite well--they are a bit to manage. He usually works with the finish carpenter (younger guy), but one of the general contractors trained that finish carpenter, and sometimes if things are slow, he works with that subcontractor doing framing or whatever needs to be done (and the FT finish carpenter often does as well). He really shines with framing and stuff like that, but he's doing well learning the finish carpentry.

He'd really enjoy being the next Tommy Silva, lol! He likes to do the work and he likes to help other people learn to do it also.

Oh, I forgot to mention that his boss know about his ASD. When they were doing an on the job interview through the career center, his boss mentioned a family member's IEP, so my son just tossed out that he has an IEP for autism. 

 

Edited June 29, 2023 by kbutton

[kbutton]

So, additional context...he has a scholarship to a local community college that's enough for him to explore additional training (in his job, branching a bit sideways, etc.) or to use toward gen ed that would be accepted widely across the state (similar to DE except post high school). It won't knock him out of the running for freshmen scholarships according to his guidance counselors, and he has an ACT score that puts him in merit aid range (and could take it again--he's only tried once).

He has to use it before next summer--not sure if he has to use it all or just start a program before then.

He feels like it's a really big decision, and we are just ecstatic that he some free money since we weren't really planning on him going to college, and he's feeling pressured to go do something.

He's gifted, but he's quirky with academics. At the career center, they really wanted him to do one of their flashy programs, such as robotics. He was not remotely interested. He's done programming classes and robotics stuff in a gifted enrichment program, plus someone he used to date did robotics, so it's not lack of familiarity.

[PeterPan]

1 hour ago, kbutton said:

My son doesn't feel like he can bother him right now because the boss has some not great things going on at home right now.

That's a social skills/problem solving thing. Why wouldn't his boss want to give him input on this important question? 

 

1 hour ago, kbutton said:

he's probably not going to, but something more hybrid would probably be okay with him.

There are men who work their way up in construction from workers to supervisors, who sometimes bid, who run a job site but not the whole project, and they never get a college degree. That is what you're describing as "hybrid."

I'll go back to this social element again. This man your ds is working for wrangles PEOPLE PROBLEMS all day long. Women change their mind. People get worried about money. People back out and stiff you. What that man is doing is not just construction but PEOPLE MANAGEMENT. So your ds needs to look at the *social* involvement for the job. Does he want to work with emotional women struggling with the color of paint and driving the builder crazy? Or he wants to manage men on a jobsite with their drug problems and other things that comes with running a crew of men? Or he wants to have a nice life doing some work? Look for the social element and help him think honestly about the kinds of people he wants to be wrangling and how involved in their messes he wants to be. 

Now I agree, it sounds really sweet to say he could get a degree and be a bit more theoretical and not have to wrangle people so much, but that's not very realistic not to have people as part of the equation.

My ds is younger but he's very clear about the types of people situations he's willing to be put into for work and the types of people situations he's NOT willing to be put in. That's a self-awareness thing. My ds could run a few men, but he would not be good running anything involving stress. That just is not his reality or comfort zone. Ad.nd he doesn't want to do anything customer forward

1 hour ago, kbutton said:

He needs his downtime. 

...He's working two jobs and doing stuff on the side, lol! He spent the school year working 24 hours as an apprentice finish carpenter, and they wanted to hire him FT, but the high interest rates have dramatically reduced all construction locally for now. Since he's still at three days per week, he picked up two days at a local garden center where he's worked other summers. He's doing some work on the side as well. 

 

It sounds like he's gainfully employed already. What would happen if it DIDN'T do any further college work? The economy is going to rebound and balance out eventually. He might be able to move to an area that is hiring and able to give him full time work. 

Fwiw, I'm not sure what you're envisioning as full time. In our area guys are on the phone at 5:30 taking their assignments and they finish the day by 5:30. Those are very long days for people (like your ds, like my ds) who need down time. And bidding is incredibly stressful, managing people even more. I still think he has some room to be more assertive and ask upfront what his growth potential is within his current employment and where they see this going. If his workload allows him to have the amount of rest he needs to have a balanced, healthy life, he may be in a good place. If the company is small, the might not have the room for expansion he needs to try his wings at other things. The stuff you're describing that he wants to do are job opportunities that would happen without any degree, quite naturally. 

So I'll just make a suggestion, not being the one who hires or deals with people but just being observant. It sounds like your ds would be fine to *try* some courses within a construction management program and see what happens. He could look over the list of courses for each year to see what courses are likely to work to his strengths and what courses are likely to be areas of weakness for him. If the program is balanced toward his strengths, with him likely to be strong at many of the courses in the program, the he could start in, knowing he could stop and still be hireable at any point. He could go part time to dip his feet in, again beginning with courses that work to his strengths.

If too many courses are going to task his weaknesses or if he gets in and realizes there was a component to the thought process that isn't working well for him, he can pull back. It's not like he has to marry the program or heavily commit. Would he have to leave home for this or could he start online or doing it part time?

The more flexible the program is, the more it allows him to *try* it and see what parts work for him, the better.

I find it interesting that he got into finish carpentry and LIKES it. That's a very particular type of person, and I know people who've done that and were good at it (exceptional) but didn't actually enjoy it. There's really something to saying I found this, I ENJOY it. That's an amazing thing to find an area you ENJOY. Some people like finish carpentry but are pain in the butt slow, very tedious, hard to employ. So again, if they like him, they're willing to hire him, and he enjoys it, that is such a huge win. I would not rush through that. He could take classes and test the waters while still being employed. He could try to find an employer that has more growth opportunities within the company, because not everyone who manages job sites has a degree. It's only the question of the social and what kinds of people/customers/employees he wants to deal with. He's got enough brains to be amazing at all the academic parts, no problem-o.

Edited June 29, 2023 by PeterPan

[PeterPan]

1 hour ago, kbutton said:

So, additional context...he has a scholarship to a local community college that's enough for him to explore additional training (in his job, branching a bit sideways, etc.) 

Does this local school have classes for construction management? Anything at all he takes, so long as the course works to a strength, will expand his work skills. Gen ed classes are easily done later if he decides he needs them. Maybe look through the offerings together and see what is worthwhile no matter what. 

 

Edited June 29, 2023 by PeterPan

[kbutton]

4 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

That's a social skills/problem solving thing. Why wouldn't his boss want to give him input on this important question? 

Well, one could argue that it shows he’s not happy at work because it’s not a degree he’s not going to use in this job. Mostly he just needs more experience with asking about stuff. He is assertive in other areas.

6 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

So your ds needs to look at the *social* involvement for the job. Does he want to work with emotional women struggling with the color of paint and driving the builder crazy? Or he wants to manage men on a jobsite with their drug problems and other things that comes with running a crew of money? Or he wants to have a nice life doing some work? Look for the social element and help him think honestly about the kinds of people he wants to be wrangling and how involved in their messes he wants to be. 

Yes, he’s aware of that. If he works on the side, this comes up as well.

8 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

Now I agree, it sounds really sweet to say he could get a degree and be a bit more theoretical and not have to wrangle people so much, but that's not very realistic not to have people as part of the equation.

He will have some degree of people wrangling either way, it’s a matter of what kind of wrangling and how much of the job it represents.

10 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

It sounds like he's gainfully employed already.

One job is seasonal, and the other is PT. It’s not enough as is. He’s welcome at home for now, but I think he wants enough to live on.

11 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

What would happen if it DIDN'T do any further college work? The economy is going to rebound and balance out eventually. He might be able to move to an area that is hiring and able to give him full time work. 

He’d have to make a lot more to be able to live away from home. He wants FT work, but he doesn’t want to work 40+ hours per week, and he’s lose his mind doing so. He’s also productive but young and hasn’t paid his dues. We think he’ll end up working harder than coworkers for the same pay. He’s had tons of those stories from the finish carpenter that he’s apprenticed to.

15 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

I still think he has some room to be more assertive and ask upfront what his growth potential is within his current employment and where they see this going. If his workload allows him to have the amount of rest he needs to have a balanced, healthy life, he may be in a good place.

He has a good idea what the end point is, and it would be ideal if they could hire him FT, assuming that the owner’s personal life doesn’t also damage his business potential (it’s not business-related trouble but can affect his bottom line).

I have more replies, but I am afraid of losing my post.

[PeterPan]

Our local technical college has a variety of shorter and longer certificate programs. Have you looked through everything carefully? I was looking at the certificates because those would be the closest thing within reach for ds. I can see why your ds doesn't want to change fields when he is skilled in one and enjoys it.

Sounds like you just look through the offerings. 

[kbutton]

18 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

So I'll just make a suggestion, not being the one who hires or deals with people but just being observant. It sounds like your ds would be fine to *try* some courses within a construction management program and see what happens. He could look over the list of courses for each year to see what courses are likely to work to his strengths and what courses are likely to be areas of weakness for him. If the program is balanced toward his strengths, with him likely to be strong at many of the courses in the program, the he could start in, knowing he could stop and still be hireable at any point. He could go part time to dip his feet in, again beginning with courses that work to his strengths.

Sound sensible, but the construction management wouldn't be local. He has a local scholarship. 

We CANNOT afford classes for funsies (our medical bills the last few years are like paying in state tuition on top of many years before that paying a lot for premiums with a different employer), and he's a bit stressed about money, largely because he's VERY frugal. 

21 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

The more flexible the program is, the more it allows him to *try* it and see what parts work for him, the better.

The gen ed classes would be more generic, but would help him decide if college of any kind would work while figuring that out on someone's dime, but he really wants to do something he'll use for sure (he might be able to be persuaded, but it's just overwhelming for him because he had not considered more schooling at all).

23 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

I find it interesting that he got into finish carpentry and LIKES it. That's a very particular type of person, and I know people who've done that and were good at it (exceptional) but didn't actually enjoy it. There's really something to saying I found this, I ENJOY it. That's an amazing thing to find an area you ENJOY. Some people like finish carpentry but are pain in the butt slow, very tedious, hard to employ. So again, if they like him, they're willing to hire him, and he enjoys it, that is such a huge win. I would not rush through that. He could take classes and test the waters while still being employed.

Yes, for sure! I just wish that what he can try locally and for free was more appealing to him, lol! I think he's slowly seeing this, but people keep acting like he's settling. Being 2e bites.

24 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

He could try to find an employer that has more growth opportunities within the company, because not everyone who manages job sites has a degree. It's only the question of the social and what kinds of people/customers/employees he wants to deal with. He's got enough brains to be amazing at all the academic parts, no problem-o.

It's good to know that he could do some management without a degree. The only issue with more growth is that he doesn't want to get into a yucky situation of putting in a lot of hours watching others not work but get paid the same. That would be very bad for both the overwork issue and the morale issue. 

Well, amazing at academics is still iffy. He had tutors for a lot of stuff. Lots. They were always impressed with his brains and equally flummoxed by the quirks! 

12 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

Does this local school have classes for construction management? Anything at all he takes, so long as the course works to a strength, will expand his work skills. Gen ed classes are easily done later if he decides he needs them. Maybe look through the offerings together and see what is worthwhile no matter what. 

Not exactly. They have some AA stuff, and I don't know if it would transfer (sounds like maybe not). Then there's a lot of information about our state having only two programs accredited by the "right" places, etc. 

Gen ed is not done so easily later. If he gets out of an academic routine, I think he'd really hate going back. Also, a comp class is going to be a big challenge. He doesn't write quickly and takes many steps to do something most students do in one or two steps.

We should be able to tour the CC campus and ask questions--they get students with the tech prep scholarship all the time, so that's good. They have a reputation as having good programs for kids who need academic assistance.

 

[kbutton]

11 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

Our local technical college has a variety of shorter and longer certificate programs. Have you looked through everything carefully? I was looking at the certificates because those would be the closest thing within reach for ds. I can see why your ds doesn't want to change fields when he is skilled in one and enjoys it.

Sounds like you just look through the offerings. 

We don't have any more of an idea of what those classes will net him than we do about the construction management degree, lol!!!

A lot of the angst comes from tons of people who seem to insinuate that he is not meeting his potential, which is frustrating. I feel like people have muddied the waters for him considerably while at the same time not actually showing him what they think he ought to be doing. It's super annoying and destabilizing. 

[PeterPan]

30 minutes ago, kbutton said:

people keep acting like he's settling. Being 2e bites.

Gen ed is not done so easily later. If he gets out of an academic routine, I think he'd really hate going back. Also, a comp class is going to be a big challenge. He doesn't write quickly and takes many steps to do something most students do in one or two steps.

We should be able to tour the CC campus and ask questions--they get students with the tech prep scholarship all the time, so that's good. They have a reputation as having good programs for kids who need academic assistance.

 

Maybe stop listening to those people. 

What about a certificate program that has NO gen ed requirements? I'm just looking at what you're saying.

ABC (Associated Builders and Contractors) will have chapters for your state to connect him with job shadowing opportunities, people he could talk with, etc.

[PeterPan]

57 minutes ago, kbutton said:

We don't have any more of an idea of what those classes will net him than we do about the construction management degree, lol!!!

A lot of the angst comes from tons of people who seem to insinuate that he is not meeting his potential, which is frustrating. I feel like people have muddied the waters for him considerably while at the same time not actually showing him what they think he ought to be doing. It's super annoying and destabilizing. 

Then why are you listening to them? You graduated him, he's gainfully employed, he's happy, and it would take extraordinary lengths to make the gen ed courses work for him. So you're asking if you should feel like you've done right by him. He's HAPPY. He enjoys the work. He shows up every day with a smile and has zest for life, is not depressed, and feels satisfied, yes?

The question is not what other people think. Stop looking at them. Only look at your son. IS HE HAPPY? Then you're done. 

Management is stress, more hours, more social dilemmas, and high stakes. People don't make $100k starting out merely because they're smart and can run a calculator and some scheduling software well. Those people have soft skills, personality, people management, problem management, stress management. They have personalities that can assume high risk, high stakes decisions, and make it look calm and smooth and collected. They can risk their shirt every day (or risk their employer's shirt) and keep it calm. 

 And I'm contrasting that with : I really like doing finishing work. I'd like to have some expansion potential if I realized I wanted to use my finish carpentry skills to do something a little bit nifty I dream up. I'd like to have a little upward potential without increasing my stress.

And then there are these voices out there, just voices were willing to do all along, telling you NOTHING YOU DO IS ENOUGH. It's not enough to be happy. It's not enough to show up for work every day and have a sense of connection to the community. It's not enough that you found a skill set you enjoy doing, something that promotes mental health and leaves you feeling ok. Nope, to some people that is not ENOUGH.

The answer to that stress is to stop listening to those people. Enough is enough. Happy is happy. You can go in circles for ever and we all can. There are things I've so done ill with ds that there is never going to be a point where I can say I DID ENOUGH. I can't ever say that. There's more syntax, more spelling, more math. I will NEVER WIN at the enough game.

The only way to win is to redefine the game and say winning wasn't what they said. They said winning was a degree. They said winning was $$. They said winning was xyz. But my son says winning is ___________________. 

If you let them decide what it means to win the game, you always lose. How about saying you did a great job and he's gainfully employed and HAPPY? Can't that be winning? 

It's like when I cruise and they give you "give" you $25 at the casino. I don't gamble (cuz I'm crazy and really, really should not) but I HATE that incompleteness of leaving that $25 free casino money unspent! And I'm like oh nothing would go wrong, I'd just spend the $25 and walk. I'd sit there cranking nickels and coins and not go beyond the $25. It wouldn't create stress. It would be FUN because I'd be like everyone else and not fail to take advantage of the opportunity.

I'd like to think I could do that, to walk right up to the line and not let it ruin me. I don't think that would be me. Can your ds walk up to the line of taking classes and not have it ruin his current good thing? Is there a way for him to? I don't know. But I don't let people gamble tell me I'm "not having fun" because I choose not to gamble. If I gambled on the ship, I could get free cruises!! And I'm smart enough (and probably able to count cards, being sort of bent that way) that I probably could. But SHOULD I? Nope. I go sit and plug my ears and do other things.

What if you retired from homeschooling? What if you turned off the people who make you feel guilty? I mean, it's fine for him to take classes if he wants to. What if you did NOTHING and said he you're working, knock yourself out, do whatever you want, and didn't help at all? Would he be just as happy without? Would he be happier not listening to the guilt tripping voices and just saying my life is good, I like my life, my life works for me...

I don't know. I can tell you that's what I'm debating with my ds. There's a certificate program I'm eyeing for him and I'm like I CAN MAKE THIS HAPPEN. I can get his math to where he can go there, I can help him register, I can this and that. And I think deep in my soul that the boy who does not have the people skills, problem solving skills, etc. to reach out for himself and choose those classes and schedule those classes and go to those classes, all by himself, probably isn't employable in that field. He could do all the academics for the certificate and get the licensure, but he's  might not have all the other soft skills that would actually make him employable with it.

And I am debating that myself, back and forth in my mind, whether that's too hard a line or just blunt reality. But what I would NOT do is take someone who is happy and tell them they ought to do more. If they want it for themselves and they initiate it, fine. I just think happy and liking your job is such an unbelievably huge win.

[kbutton]

1 hour ago, PeterPan said:

ABC (Associated Builders and Contractors) will have chapters for your state to connect him with job shadowing opportunities, people he could talk with, etc.

Good to know.

51 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

Then why are you listening to them? You graduated him, he's gainfully employed, he's happy, and it would take extraordinary lengths to make the gen ed courses work for him. So you're asking if you should feel like you've done right by him. He's HAPPY. He enjoys the work. He shows up every day with a smile and has zest for life, is not depressed, and feels satisfied, yes?

The question is not what other people think. Stop looking at them. Only look at your son. IS HE HAPPY? Then you're done. 

We are doing our due diligence. That's all. He doesn't feel he's done his due diligence in looking at his options yet because he doesn't understand them. Not listening to people is avoiding doing our due diligence.

He can't live on what he's currently making, so I am not sure he's arrived yet. He doesn't feel gainfully employed, just busy. He does like his job. 

It doesn't help that at least one school pal is making money hand over fist under the table either, but that's a whole other discussion. 

55 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

What if you retired from homeschooling?

I am retired from homeschooling. The younger one is in school. This one graduated, and I finished his transcript. I guess I do need to order a diploma and decide on which senior pictures to get printed and who they go to, but that's about it.

57 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

What if you turned off the people who make you feel guilty?

You should've heard a local homeschool guru this week when she looked at my son's transcript. I set her straight, but she insinuated that I should be changing my son's grades because his ACT score indicates that he should be a straight A student. The things he got B's in were things that had real grades, and he earned those B's. In fact, he calculated them himself using the grading scale set out in the resources, lol! She said it would make him look like a lazy student. I was incredulous that I should falsify grades just because I can theoretically give him whatever grade I want to (and she's a Christian). He's 2e, and he's spiky; I told her those grades reflect him precisely as a student--he is not good at studying for tests when he isn't sure what will be on them. It's as simple as that. We had a blend of those experiences and mom/tutoring grades FOR A REASON.

He flippin' met the state's list of requirements for a career tech honors diploma, but apparently that throws my transcript into question. Grr.

I'm also very aware of what my high school experience was like and what my younger son's is like so far. My older son had an experience somewhat in between the two with rigor, and in some ways, it was more rigorous because he did so very much self-teaching (and it's helped him become a lifelong learner). Anyway, I don't feel like I overinflated his grades or was too hard; I feel like he'll have holes, but so I did I even with a really good public school education. I know few people who felt like their education was "practically perfect in every way." I was very true to who he was as person while also stretching him in ways that mattered.

So, I can take opinions and tell them where to go, but my son and I both want to do our due diligence with information that's coming from people who are very vested in him and who aren't telling him to reach for the stars for the sake of their own egos. It's hard for someone with ASD to look at open ended options, much less multiple open-ended options, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't. The career tech people are coming from a place where a good half of their students are lucky to be graduating because they are troublemakers, or their learning differences really do make school hellish, or because their home life is very adverse--some of these kids are living out of cars and such. They really care; my son was like a rock star there among the faculty for good reason, and they don't tend to set students up for failure. If some of them are suggesting we look into these things, it's because they care. Those are people you listen to!

 

[kbutton]

And before you ask why I had someone looking at his transcript--she works for the scholarship provider that has been overseeing his tutoring in the areas he's needed tutoring, so it's kind of a value ad thing. I haven't had anyone else's help, so it seemed wise to have another set of eyes check it out.

[Rosie_0801]

Will he be on a liveable wage once he's finished his apprenticeship?

How is the desire for full time work without working 40+ hours reconciled? Doesn't full time mean 40+ hours?

(I live under a different system, so I might be missing what would otherwise be obvious.)

How is he with attention to detail? Would an OH&S degree be a better fit?

[PeterPan]

6 hours ago, kbutton said:

He can't live on what he's currently making, so I am not sure he's arrived yet. He doesn't feel gainfully employed, just busy. He does like his job. 

It doesn't help that at least one school pal is making money hand over fist under the table either, but that's a whole other discussion. 

Ok, I'm going to flip this a bit. If the real question is how do we take what is working and make it livable, that gets more interesting. Underemployment is the *norm* in autism irrespective of IQ. I can tell you that for my ds the plan has long been, at least in my mind, to set him up with a house that is paid for and a situation where his work check gets divided between expenses and discretionary. The name is slipping my mind right now (savings account for people with disabilities) and that level of support might not be the support level your ds needs. For someone who makes less than a living wage, you're asking questions like how do they afford health insurance longterm (through an employer, by qualifying for medicaid), whether they realistically work enough to push them over that limit, how we structure assets so they qualify for the programs that make sure they have insurance, etc. At least for support level 2, that's the stuff I'm thinking through. Insurance, what qualifies, limits. Now if he happens to get an employer who provides insurance, that helps.

I asked my dh some questions this morning, the kinds you might ask if your ds were interviewing someone in the industry. Remember too he's a very brief person.

-How common is getting a construction management degree in the industry right now? -very common

-Is there a range of things a person with that construction management degree would do (bidding, managing people, etc.)-Yes

-Who is most suited to go into a construction management program? -People who did not grow up in the industry need a way to gain proficiency. To go into management, you need proficiency.

-How would someone decide if they are suited to go into construction management?- Management of necessity involves stress. 

He also said to look at the specifics of the program to decide if it would work toward your strengths or emphasize weaknesses.

So maybe back up and ask what the real problems are (how does he live when we're gone, would he like some expansion ability, how does he expand what he's doing without creating a stressful situation that doesn't work for him) and then find mentors in the industry to let him shadow that he can ask these questions. It's a very normal thing to do to call these industry orgs and ask to shadow. Anyone who has worked 20, 30, 40 years hiring/firing/running workers can size someone up pretty quickly and tell where it's going and give them some good advice. 

Mom observation: With my ds, I ask things like whether he wants to work for himself or whether he wants to work for someone else.  

And yes, ethics and legal issues are constant in construction. The scale of them just changes. Your ds is having his eyebrows raised at little stuff, and bigger jobs just magnify that stress and risk. 

Fwiw, I would suggest shadowing with some businesses who could expand/stretch him in a variety of ways, with or without the degree. Then he can decide for himself which path more suits his personality and bents. He's being shown the school path, but he could also see the work up through the industry without school path. Then he'd have a more clear sense of two directions. That degree is not the *only* way to move up his paycheck and personal satisfaction.

Mom observation: I think for my ds the best way to moderate his stress will be for him to work 20-30 hours a week in industry and 10-15 hours a week at a leisure job, a personal business he owns. Now it's *possible* that will flip and he'll show a combo of proficiencies we can merge together to help him set up a business. My ds is a very *decisive* person (astonishingly decisive, always has been) who could manage 1-3 men and who could run some aspects of business if he had strong office employees running the parts he can't do (math, bookkeeping, HR, etc.). I guess you could call that supported business owning, haha. We're just in the middle of things, but those are two different visions/outcomes I'm working. Right now, you're sort of in the former, where you're working two different jobs to create a mix that keeps stress at the right level. And there's that question of what he could do that gives him a bit more room for growth. Maybe running his own business is the middle of the road thing with more room for growth/satisfaction without being all the way to running big jobs and dealing with stress and people. Or maybe he really likes working for someone else and not having stress and he'd like to work for an employer who has more room to move him up? Usually that involves learning more skills and showing management ability. It would be that middle of the road option.

I'm saying you can make it look like a tree instead of this nebulous idea they're painting. Jump points, levels of stress at each branch in the tree.

Not to be too obvious, but there are union and non-union paths within industry, which means there are multiple orgs he can be talking with. I can tell you my brother worked within a union for his industry till his health failed, and it had the benefit of clear structures for insurance, etc. and the severe problems of ethics (rampant) and total disregard for employee health and longterm viability. But again, when you're thinking about how you get him able to make a living wage (vs. setting him up in a situation where he doesn't need a complete living wage), then that could be a path. You mentioned teaching, and my brother just took a job teaching in his industry. He worked in the field 20+ years in union jobs, destroyed his body, and that's what is left. He likes it and is pursuing a personal business (hobby area) on the side. These are normal things to think through, sigh. 

If someone has a house that is paid for, their need for income is more moderate, which allows them to work in a way that suits them. If someone develops proficiency and has an excellent reputation, they can pick their jobs and work in a way that suits them. It's this sort of middle of the road vision you could consider. I know it doesn't sound realistic maybe, but I'm just saying there is that middle of the road. It's the stuff I think through with my ds. Rather than asking how I get him to earn enough, I instead ask how I can set him up in a situation where what he is realistically going to earn is enough. But maybe that doesn't fit the support level of your ds. Maybe there's a vision that fits him. There are SN lawyers, SN financial advisors. Those are the kinds of people you talk through to get these ideas/visions/paths.

[PeterPan]

7 hours ago, kbutton said:

And before you ask why I had someone looking at his transcript--she works for the scholarship provider that has been overseeing his tutoring in the areas he's needed tutoring, so it's kind of a value ad thing. I haven't had anyone else's help, so it seemed wise to have another set of eyes check it out.

Your ds is perpetually going to be the person who doesn't add up. Those test scores say one thing but the way he handles stress, people, etc. will say another. I think you may get some good answers by shadowing and talking with more people in industry, because they are used to thinking in terms of where people REALLY ARE, not just what a piece of paper says. 

 

[PeterPan]

https://www.bgsu.edu/content/dam/BGSU/catalog/check-sheets/Construction-Mgmt-Tech.pdf  

Here's an example of the requirements in an accredited 4 year construction management program.  It has 17 gen ed type courses and all those humanities courses will have papers.

https://www.cscc.edu/academics/departments/construction-management/ Here's an example that popped up with google of a two year associates in construction management that has less gen ed requirements. This same school offers *certificates* that have no gen ed requirements at all. They list certificates in

-building information modeling

-estimating/procurement

-facility conservation and energy management

-field supervision

-residential construction management

I'm looking at certificates for my ds and hadn't seen those. They look pretty great honestly, and they might even be MORE intriguing to him than the BS. Remember, that person getting a BS is a very in their head manager kind of person. They're showing they can write, understand people, and wrangle complex novel situations. That is not autism. But these certificates are marketed at a totally different person. I'm clicking through them and each certificate program says who they're specifically marketing to. Some are marketed to people who have no work experience in the field and others like https://explore.cscc.edu/programs/RESCONST.ICRT/residential-construction-management-certificate  are being marketed to people already working in the field who want to up their knowledge/skills (hence employability and paycheck). 

I'm pretty impressed with what I see about certificates. The 4 year degree approach has been such a failure, and we're seeing this rebalancing in education where they're offering things that directly improve employability and directly lead to employment. So a certificate with the option to expand that later into an AS could be a strong path that uses his current funding access.

Edited June 29, 2023 by PeterPan

[kbutton]

8 hours ago, Rosie_0801 said:

Will he be on a liveable wage once he's finished his apprenticeship?

How is the desire for full time work without working 40+ hours reconciled? Doesn't full time mean 40+ hours?

(I live under a different system, so I might be missing what would otherwise be obvious.)

How is he with attention to detail? Would an OH&S degree be a better fit?

So, he's working 40+ with the combination of jobs, but he has no benefits either place. If he were to be FT at one or the other, then he might eventually make a liveable wage. At his current wage, it's not much. He could make this rate at a fast food place (if their ads are true).

His attention to detail is good--that is something his teacher at school mentioned. If OH&S is about safety, then maybe? I think he wants to stay with carpentry, but the path is not super clear, and the well wishers seem to think he'll find his way in the fog, lol! 

I do think that it's looking like construction management would not be a good fit at this point, but I feel like I have information I can share about that.

It sounds like he doesn't need a degree to move up; he just needs to find out what is available. He doesn't need a degree to own his own business either, but he does need a variety of experience, and it might be worth taking some business classes, etc. for that eventually.

[Ausmumof3]

Nm just realised the conversation has moved on 

Edited June 29, 2023 by Ausmumof3

[kbutton]

1 hour ago, PeterPan said:

If someone develops proficiency and has an excellent reputation, they can pick their jobs and work in a way that suits them. It's this sort of middle of the road vision you could consider. I know it doesn't sound realistic maybe, but I'm just saying there is that middle of the road.

I think this is what he's most likely to do if his current job isn't going to give him a desirable wage long-term. I suspect the boss is actively avoiding those conversations until he knows he can pay him more and give him more hours, especially with his personal life in a bit of a bind.

I think he'd be miserable in a union job, and he does want to consider his health. While our family doesn't have anything diagnosable, we all have a degree of hypermobility that puts us all at risk of repetitive injury.

I think middle of the road is reasonable. It's good to know it doesn't require a degree.

1 hour ago, PeterPan said:

Not to be too obvious, but there are union and non-union paths within industry, which means there are multiple orgs he can be talking with. I can tell you my brother worked within a union for his industry till his health failed, and it had the benefit of clear structures for insurance, etc. and the severe problems of ethics (rampant) and total disregard for employee health and longterm viability.

I think he's much more likely to add broader skills and try some kind of upward movement in a different company (if this one doesn't provide options) than to take a union job if at all possible. I think he could potentially enjoy electrical work, and he has a pretty good working knowledge of that from his classes (they do a little bit of cross-training). 

 

[Rosie_0801]

7 minutes ago, kbutton said:

If OH&S is about safety, then maybe? I think he wants to stay with carpentry, but the path is not super clear, and the well wishers seem to think he'll find his way in the fog, lol! 

Yes, Occupational Health and Safety. I know that's an avenue some people over here take to get off the tools. Flipping houses is a way to make money too, when he's got more experience.

[kbutton]

1 hour ago, PeterPan said:

Your ds is perpetually going to be the person who doesn't add up. Those test scores say one thing but the way he handles stress, people, etc. will say another. I think you may get some good answers by shadowing and talking with more people in industry, because they are used to thinking in terms of where people REALLY ARE, not just what a piece of paper says. 

Possibly. He's not coming across that way to the people in the industry who have worked with him. 

I do think he will be limited by those things, but that limit might not require him to be underpaid. We're just still figuring out how the industry works.

1 hour ago, PeterPan said:

I'm pretty impressed with what I see about certificates. The 4 year degree approach has been such a failure, and we're seeing this rebalancing in education where they're offering things that directly improve employability and directly lead to employment. So a certificate with the option to expand that later into an AS could be a strong path that uses his current funding access.

It could be, but we don't know. :-) 

It could be that union jobs care about this, and the rest don't.

He's been told both that his job experiences matter the most and that he should get a degree. By the same people. Lol!

[kbutton]

4 minutes ago, Rosie_0801 said:

Yes, Occupational Health and Safety. I know that's an avenue some people over here take to get off the tools. Flipping houses is a way to make money too, when he's got more experience.

Thanks! He might enjoy it if it doesn't make him a pariah, lol! His teacher emphasized safety, and he takes it seriously. 

[PeterPan]

9 minutes ago, kbutton said:

Possibly. He's not coming across that way to the people in the industry who have worked with him. 

I do think he will be limited by those things, but that limit might not require him to be underpaid. We're just still figuring out how the industry works.    

It could be, but we don't know. 🙂

It could be that union jobs care about this, and the rest don't.

He's been told both that his job experiences matter the most and that he should get a degree. By the same people. Lol!

He's not going to be underpaid because that's not how it works. His pay is going to be at the rate that his work and experience warrants. The issue is how many hours he can work. If someone makes "good money" or a "living wage" and they do it by working more hours, that might not fit all people. So he'd be underemployed but receiving a totally fare wage for the amount he works.

I have no doubt he does beautiful work and as attentive to detail. 

It would be interesting to see what certificate and AS programs he has access to with his current funding/scholarship opportunities. For my ds, I had only looked at the technical college near us and hadn't looked wider. There seems to be quite a bit of diversity.

[kbutton]

1 minute ago, PeterPan said:

It would be interesting to see what certificate and AS programs he has access to with his current funding/scholarship opportunities. For my ds, I had only looked at the technical college near us and hadn't looked wider. There seems to be quite a bit of diversity.

Yes. I just don't know if they are needed/desirable either.

[kbutton]

2 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

If someone makes "good money" or a "living wage" and they do it by working more hours, that might not  all people. So he'd be underemployed but receiving a totally fare wage for the amount he works.

Yes.

But some people are underemployed relative to skill or because they have a stinky boss, etc. Averages don't always apply to all people in all places, and it can't always be fixed with more hours, etc.

[PeterPan]

2 minutes ago, kbutton said:

Yes. I just don't know if they are needed/desirable either.

I don't know, my dh distinctly said these programs are becoming COMMON. And they're a way to move forward more quickly if you don't have a lot of experience in the industry. And I think you're going to find these programs are being developed in response to the requests of industry. For so long, college was very ethereal (go humanities, show you're adaptable, fields change, all that jazz). There's been a move toward programs that more closely align with what industry needs. You can ask them very specific questions like what job does this certificate lead to, who is hiring with this, how does it affect their pay rate, etc. I think you'll find industry has been working with these ed institutions trying to get this ed to work pipeline. They NEED skilled workers so it should translate pretty directly.

[PeterPan]

3 minutes ago, kbutton said:

Yes.

But some people are underemployed relative to skill or because they have a stinky boss, etc. Averages don't always apply to all people in all places, and it can't always be fixed with more hours, etc.

That's another thing he's going to be thinking about and part of that financial planning. Is he someone who would be open to moving to another area with more work opportunities, maybe living in an apartment or with a housemate, or is he going to be better staying close to home in the community he's used to?

[kbutton]

25 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

I don't know, my dh distinctly said these programs are becoming COMMON.

I didn't realize you asked him about certificate programs--your list at that point said construction management degrees.

24 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

That's another thing he's going to be thinking about and part of that financial planning. Is he someone who would be open to moving to another area with more work opportunities, maybe living in an apartment or with a housemate, or is he going to be better staying close to home in the community he's used to?

Right now, the interest rates are hitting the housing market. It's not lack of work opportunities for any other reason. We have explosive growth in housing in our county and in the county he's working in as well, but people are putting off projects because the rates are high.

[PeterPan]

9 minutes ago, kbutton said:

people are putting off projects because the rates are high.

ABC can get you beyond residential work.

[Janeway]

My cousin does this and he earns good money. He does contracts for bridges and such for the state. I think this is a job I would have liked.

[Sweets]

My middle son graduated in 2018 with a bachelors in construction management. He was working before he graduated and is now a project manager, traveling around the country for a large contractor. He enjoys the work and pay but hates the traveling. He is also Hispanic (we adopted him at birth) and he really has encountered a lot of prejudice at first meetings with clients. He has had to learn to navigate the industry, but he's also one who is self-assured and charismatic - a little too much self-assured sometimes! But it's a good career field if you are an extrovert and love building things. My youngest is a total introvert and would hate that job - he's an adjunct history professor and researcher. My middle son started in architecture but didn't like it and switched majors to construction management.