Drag Story time

[freesia]

2 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

THEY/WE are women too. They’re not prioritized  OVER women; they’re being held as equal to you. Hard as that may be to absorb.

Not in your opinion. They are “more equal.”  They want to be there. They get to be there. 

[Sneezyone]

Just now, LMD said:

Offender rate correlates with sex not gender identity. Actually, transwomen have a worse rate than other males in some instances - but I don't think you want to go there...

I don’t feel like ANY of the stats folks throw around here on this issue are well-established or settled. I may well be wrong in that view, I’m just reflexively hostile to irrational bigotry.

[katilac]

8 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

I’ve been hurt by guns and no one is working near as hard to remove those from public spaces despite them outnumbering men. Those preferences don’t matter. The logic doesn’t hold up.

What? Gun control is a huge battleground, and has been for a long time! 

[Sneezyone]

Just now, katilac said:

What? Gun control is a huge battleground, and has been for a long time! 

Aaaasnd ….no laws. So there’s that.

[Sneezyone]

2 hours ago, freesia said:

Not in your opinion. They are “more equal.”  They want to be there. They get to be there. 

Not so say legislative bigots and their supporters. We have criminalized any discussion of divergent sexual orientations and gender expression in a third+ of our states. That’s not more equal, unless it’s Opposite Day?

Edited June 22, 2023 by Sneezyone

[LMD]

1 minute ago, Sneezyone said:

I don’t feel like ANY of the stats folks throw around here on this issue are well-established or settled. I may well be wrong in that view, I’m just reflexively hostile to irrational bigotry.

You are wrong.

[Sneezyone]

1 minute ago, LMD said:

You are wrong.

In which part, the allergic reaction to bigots or the stats?

[katilac]

4 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

Aaaasnd ….no laws. So there’s that.

Do you think there are no laws related to guns? 

Your replies are hard to understand. 

[1234]

4 minutes ago, freesia said:

Not in your opinion. They are “more equal.”  They want to be there. They get to be there. 

To be fair she also mentioned masc women. Maybe they’re supposed to do like trans men and use a unisex bathroom as well to make some women comfortable? 

Gender stereotypes are worse than ever. A few weeks ago I watched a middle aged woman berate a young mom because her toddler son had a man bun. The older woman accused the mom of feminizing her son in “these crazy times”.

[maize]

12 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

I’m sure the owner dude who comes over is quite comfy. His workers? Nope.

But this matters why?

I'm confident that I am "of lesser means" than you. So what? Your post seemed to imply something about attitudes you expect regarding these tradesmen of lesser means (because why the heck did you throw that in at all?)

I'm pretty sure every woman on this board is aware that men with means and power are in no way less likely than men of lesser means to be a risk to women. I'm no more wary of a plumber than I am of a CEO or a general...if anything my concerns go the other direction. I'd be way more concerned about a landlord taking advantage of me than a plumber!

[Sneezyone]

4 minutes ago, Joker2 said:

To be fair she also mentioned masc women. Maybe they’re supposed to do like trans men and use a unisex bathroom as well to make some women comfortable? 

Gender stereotypes are worse than ever. A few weeks ago I watched a middle aged woman berate a young mom because her toddler son had a man bun. The older woman accused the mom of feminizing her son in “these crazy times”.

This!! I’m sympathetic to the idea that drag perpetuates gender stereotypes but swivel my head ALL THE WAY in the other direction when I see drag opponents and transphobes harassing masc women. THAT is beyond disingenuousness, it’s pure hypocrisy.

Edited June 22, 2023 by Sneezyone

[Melissa Louise]

Males aren't women. This is what I mean by gaslighting. Males can be transwoman, males who.live according to their notion of a gendered womanhood. Still male. 

[Sneezyone]

1 minute ago, maize said:

But this matters why?

I'm confident that I am "of lesser means" than you. So what? Your post seemed to imply something about attitudes you expect regarding these tradesmen of lesser means (because why the heck did you throw that in at all?)

I'm pretty sure every woman on this board is aware that men with means and power are in no way less likely than men of lesser means to be a risk to women. I'm no more wary of a plumber than I am of a CEO or a general...if anything my concerns go the other direction. I'd be way more concerned about a landlord taking advantage of me than a plumber!

Yeah, my comments implicated none of this and I’m unwilling to follow this tangent.

[maize]

2 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

This!! I’m sympathetic to the idea that drag perpetuates gender stereotypes but swivel my head ALL THE WAY in the other direction when I see drag opponents and transphobes harassing masc women. THAT is beyond disingenuousness, it’s pure hypocrisy.

This I agree with you on.

[freesia]

4 minutes ago, Joker2 said:

To be fair she also mentioned masc women. Maybe they’re supposed to do like trans men and use a unisex bathroom as well to make some women comfortable? 

Gender stereotypes are worse than ever. A few weeks ago I watched a middle aged woman berate a young mom because her toddler son had a man bun. The older woman accused the mom of feminizing her son in “these crazy times”.

I see the masc women issue as different. Sure it might look the same in practice in one bathroom. However when we are talking about certain women feeling safe using bathrooms in general knowing that biological male genital bearers are allowed in the space (including locker rooms and female spas  and swim times here) make a difference in how those women move in space and chose movement. Encountering a person who does not present as feminine in one bathroom is not the same to me. And that’s horrific about the toddler. But the fact that nasty people do that, does not change my opinion on how we listen to women who want private spaces. 

[maize]

It would be great if we could all agree that being a woman, being female,  has nothing whatsoever to do with presenting to the world in some culturally defined feminine manner. That's complete and utter nonsense.

[Sneezyone]

To me, drag is one way of performing femininity/my way TBH (on a good day). It doesn’t reflect my DDs version. I would no more demean her femininity or force her to relinquish it by suggesting drag femme=woman than to do the reverse. Extremists are forcing binary choices on everyone.

Unless/until you are parenting a child who comes to you and says they left a space b/c they didn’t feel safe being a more masc-presenting woman, you really don’t have a clue how hostile the southern US in particular has become as a result of these laws and their advocates.

You are not my friends on this issue. You’re helping NO ONE on this issue. You’re making my child less safe. I said the same damn thing pre-2016 election and no one listened then so I expect the same result now. It still must be said.

Edited June 22, 2023 by Sneezyone

[1234]

7 minutes ago, freesia said:

I see the masc women issue as different. Sure it might look the same in practice in one bathroom. However when we are talking about certain women feeling safe using bathrooms in general knowing that biological male genital bearers are allowed in the space (including locker rooms and female spas  and swim times here) make a difference in how those women move in space and chose movement. Encountering a person who does not present as feminine in one bathroom is not the same to me. And that’s horrific about the toddler. But the fact that nasty people do that, does not change my opinion on how we listen to women who want private spaces. 

You may not have a problem with it but someone else in this thread has already said trans men should probably choose unisex bathrooms to not make women uncomfortable. 

If laws were changed federally so that my trans ds was not allowed to use men’s restrooms, I think it’s insane that he would then be expected to go out of his way to make the women who voted that way comfortable. 

Edited June 22, 2023 by Joker2

[maize]

14 minutes ago, Joker2 said:

To be fair she also mentioned masc women. Maybe they’re supposed to do like trans men and use a unisex bathroom as well to make some women comfortable? 

Gender stereotypes are worse than ever. A few weeks ago I watched a middle aged woman berate a young mom because her toddler son had a man bun. The older woman accused the mom of feminizing her son in “these crazy times”.

As best I can tell, the current obsession with all things gender is the biggest contributer to the reinforcement of gender stereotypes.

I remember listening to an interview with two transwomen on NPR. One of them was talking about how they knew they were a woman because they loved pink and sparkles. 

Pink and and sparkles have NOTHING to do with being a woman. Really and truly nothing. (Yes, I've got a strong distate for both...how did you guess?)

But that's the message these days...because if you don't know whether you are a boy or girl by what kind of physical body you have, how can you know? For some people, it apparently comes down to stereotypes.

[freesia]

12 minutes ago, Joker2 said:

You may not have a problem with it but someone else in this thread has already said trans men should probably choose unisex bathrooms to not make women uncomfortable. 

If laws were changed federally so that my trans ds was not allowed to use men’s restrooms, I think it’s insane that he would then be expected to go out of his way to make the woman who voted that way comfortable. 

Well, the bathroom situation is tough all around. I don’t hear anyone having a problem with trans men using male bathrooms. I don’t hear silencing of opinion on that front. I think what was said was not that he’d be expected to use a unisex bathroom but that he might be more likely to understand why it would make the women uncomfortable. 
eta:typo 

Edited June 22, 2023 by freesia

[SanDiegoMom]

27 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

I don’t feel like ANY of the stats folks throw around here on this issue are well-established or settled. I may well be wrong in that view, I’m just reflexively hostile to irrational bigotry.

But labeling people’s opinions that might differ than yours as irrational bigotry is pretty irrational itself. 

[Sneezyone]

Just now, maize said:

As best I can tell, the current obsession with all things gender is the biggest contributer to the reinforcement of gender stereotypes.

I remember listening to an interview with two transwomen on NPR. One of them was talking about how they knew they were a woman because they loved pink and sparkles. 

Pink and and sparkles have NOTHING to do with being a woman. Really and truly nothing. (Yes, I've got a strong distate for both...how did you guess?)

But that's the message these days...because if you don't know whether you are a boy or girl by what kind of physical body you have, how can you know? For some people, it apparently comes down to stereotypes.

All the more reason NOT to fixate on how drag performers do gender. It’s a SHOW, not real life. The fixation is circumscribing the gender presentation options available to women and girls.

[Sneezyone]

3 minutes ago, SanDiegoMom said:

But labeling people’s opinions that might differ than yours as irrational bigotry is pretty irrational itself. 

Are you the one suffering the consequences of the bigotry? I aim to give myself and my kids the language to talk honestly about their lived experiences. That is 20000% rational and justifiable.

Edited June 22, 2023 by Sneezyone

[SanDiegoMom]

Just now, Sneezyone said:

Are you the one suffering the consequences of the bigotry?

What it seems is that you are labeling  all legislation that you disagree with as bigotry. So who defines bigotry? 

[Sneezyone]

1 minute ago, SanDiegoMom said:

What it seems is that you are labeling  all legislation that you disagree with as bigotry. So who defines bigotry? 

I’m labeling all legislation that seeks to circumscribe individual medical choices INAPPROPRIATE, STUPID, SHORT-SIGHTED, FRAUGHT, and oh yeah… fueled by hysterical BIGOTRY.

Edited June 22, 2023 by Sneezyone

[1234]

.

Edited June 22, 2023 by Joker2

[1234]

7 minutes ago, freesia said:

Well, the bathroom situation is tough all around. I don’t hear anyone having a problem with trans men using male bathrooms. I don’t hear silencing of opinion on that front. I think negative was said was not that he’d be expected to use a unisex bathroom but that he might be more likely to understand why it would make the women uncomfortable. 

You can’t honestly think that if laws are made about women’s bathrooms that it won’t also extend to men’s?

A part of me hopes ds doesn’t care at all about making the women who vote that way comfortable if it comes down to it. They voted for it, they can deal with the consequences. He’s a better person than me though. Hopefully those laws never actually happen and none of us have to find out what will happen with trans men in women’s restrooms.

[Melissa Louise]

Ppl identify  non binary because it's the current fashion. 

Transmen don't want to be considered female. If they pass, and lots do, or pass enough, they can use the men's. The risk is to themselves..

[Dmmetler]

Just now, freesia said:

Well, the bathroom situation is tough all around. I don’t hear anyone having a problem with trans men using male bathrooms. I don’t hear silencing of opinion on that front. I think negative was said was not that he’d be expected to use a unisex bathroom but that he might be more likely to understand why it would make the women uncomfortable. 

It's currently illegal for my trans nephew to use the boy's bathroom at his Florida high school. And if he uses the girl's, he has a really high chance of getting beaten up because he's been presenting as a boy since before he started at that school, and very few of his classmates know he's trans-his name has been legally changed.  Next year, his mother plans to have him drive their minivan to school and put the portable toilet they use for camping in it to give him a third option-because the only bathroom he'll legally be able to use is the one off the nurse's office, which is often locked.  He's got to survive one more year before he goes to college-and can hopefully get out of Florida. 

 

 

 

 

[Sneezyone]

4 minutes ago, Melissa Louise said:

Ppl identify  non binary because it's the current fashion. 

Transmen don't want to be considered female. If they pass, and lots do, or pass enough, they can use the men's. The risk is to themselves..

You are so.flipping.out of touch with what’s happening here. I’m sorry. That’s harsh. Also…accurate.

Edited June 22, 2023 by Sneezyone

[1234]

5 minutes ago, Melissa Louise said:

Ppl identify  non binary because it's the current fashion. 

Transmen don't want to be considered female. If they pass, and lots do, or pass enough, they can use the men's. The risk is to themselves..

If laws are passed, my trans ds will use the bathroom he’s legally supposed to and everyone will have to deal. 

Also, I assume you’re only speaking for the trans men and non binary people you actually know because your statements are not an accurate representation for all.

[SanDiegoMom]

6 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

You are so.flipping.out of touch with what’s happening here. I’m sorry. That’s harsh. Also…accurate.

Can’t that be the same for people in the US? You can’t know what my local conditions are here, I can’t know what yours are there. Florida is different than Virginia which is different than the Midwest and the west.  I happen to think some of the laws in California are frightening, but I’m not going to just label everything I don’t like as bigoted just because I think they are misguided.  

[Sneezyone]

17 minutes ago, SanDiegoMom said:

Can’t that be the same for people in the US? You can’t know what my local conditions are here, I can’t know what yours are there. Florida is different than Virginia which is different than the Midwest and the west.  I happen to think some of the laws in California are frightening, but I’m not going to just label everything I don’t like as bigoted just because I think they are misguided.  

You described them, I trust you, it’s hostile toward exploratory therapy. I see that as bad too. I do not feel like it’s motivated by antagonism toward LGBTQ+ people so maybe I should add that to my personal diatribe. Whats occurring in my region is motivated by fear and animus. Bigotry is an appropriate term. What’s happening in your region is reactionary and wrong but not motivated by bigotry. My B/W stance is not to allow legislators to infringe on personal medical decisions.

Edited June 22, 2023 by Sneezyone

[PronghornD]

24 minutes ago, Melissa Louise said:

Ppl identify  non binary because it's the current fashion. 

 

My non binary kid is not doing it to be fashionable. They are not a follower in any way shape or form. They have always had a strong and independent sense of self.

[freesia]

I

20 minutes ago, Joker2 said:

You can’t honestly think that if laws are made about women’s bathrooms that it won’t also extend to men’s?

A part of me hopes ds doesn’t care at all about making the women who vote that way comfortable if it comes down to it. They voted for it, they can deal with the consequences. He’s a better person than me though. Hopefully those laws never actually happen and none of us have to find out what will happen with trans men in women’s restrooms.

I feel like the arguments keep shifting. Maybe it’s because different people enter and leave the conversation. I care about the women who want space that is limited to female genitalia. Whether or not the law extends to trans men is separate from that to me. I get that it’s not to others. I also get why you and others are concerned about that bc that would affect you dc. However, I also agree with @Melissa Louise that the risk is to themselves. With no law they get to chose risk. The women I’ve been referencing do not get to chose risk. I do actually think it would be possible to have a law for just one bathroom. As a country we’ve allowed women’s colleges but not men’s. Do I think it’s probable in todays climate? Not in many places but I think it’s important to recognize it as a possibility and not just reject it out of hand. 

[Danae]

7 minutes ago, freesia said:

As a country we’ve allowed women’s colleges but not men’s. 

Not so.  There’s a men’s only college not far from here and I’m sure there are more.

[1234]

1 minute ago, freesia said:

I

I feel like the arguments keep shifting. Maybe it’s because different people enter and leave the conversation. I care about the women who want space that is limited to female genitalia. Whether or not the law extends to trans men is separate from that to me. I get that it’s not to others. I also get why you and others are concerned about that bc that would affect you dc. However, I also agree with @Melissa Louise that the risk is to themselves. With no law they get to chose risk. The women I’ve been referencing do not get to chose risk. I do actually think it would be possible to have a law for just one bathroom. As a country we’ve allowed women’s colleges but not men’s. Do I think it’s probable in todays climate? Not in many places but I think it’s important to recognize it as a possibility and not just reject it out of hand. 

FTR, my trans ds has had zero issues using men’s rooms since he was sixteen. I do completely reject that the US would make bathroom laws targeting those who are transgender and only target trans women. The people making these laws don’t actually care about women’s spaces. 

I also find it wild that some insist that trans women are males and they care so much about females but don’t give a hoot about trans men and their safety. You would think they would be considered female by those same people but I guess they’re not the right kind. So, trans men shouldn’t use women’s spaces and you all don’t care what happens to them in men’s spaces. Got it!

[freesia]

Just now, Danae said:

Not so.  There’s a men’s only college not far from here and I’m sure there are more.

Huh I didn’t know there were anymore. I stand corrected. 

[Sneezyone]

1 minute ago, Danae said:

Not so.  There’s a men’s only college not far from here and I’m sure there are more.

Indeed! My son is considering one.

[maize]

44 minutes ago, Joker2 said:

You can’t honestly think that if laws are made about women’s bathrooms that it won’t also extend to men’s?

 

There's no reason you can't pass a law to protect the most vulnerable group. Like what's happening with some sports, you protect women's space and leave the rest open. 

Female-only (except for young children; women's spaces should always welcome young children) restrooms and gender neutral.

Edited June 22, 2023 by maize

[Sneezyone]

7 minutes ago, maize said:

There's no reason you can't pass a law to protect the most vulnerable group. Like what's happening with some sports, you protect women's space and leave the rest open. 

Female-only (except for young children; women's spaces should always welcome young children) restrooms and gender neutral.

Yes, there is. There’s no will to protect the vulnerable, just a desire to punish the ‘deviant’, and use the outrage for electoral gain.This is three cycles in the making. The pattern should be evident.

We couldn’t even have a reasoned convo about young children b/c some here felt my prek blackety-black son shouldn’t be permitted in women’s spaces despite his age. Appearance ruled the hoard.

Edited June 22, 2023 by Sneezyone

[freesia]

1 minute ago, Sneezyone said:

Yes, there is. There’s no will to protect the vulnerable, just a desire to punish the ‘deviant’, and use the outrage for electoral gain.This is three cycles in the making. The pattern should be evident.

Which doesn’t at all mean that protecting the vulnerable is not the right thing to do. 

[Sneezyone]

Just now, freesia said:

Which doesn’t at all mean that protecting the vulnerable is not the right thing to do. 

Explain how.

[freesia]

Just now, Sneezyone said:

Explain how.

One idea would be restrooms restricted to those with female genitalia and gender neutral ones like Maize suggested. 
 

But I have a feeling this was a set up question bc we’ve bounced ideas around for pages and pages. 

[Sneezyone]

16 minutes ago, freesia said:

One idea would be restrooms restricted to those with female genitalia and gender neutral ones like Maize suggested. 
 

But I have a feeling this was a set up question bc we’ve bounced ideas around for pages and pages. 

It’s not a set up. It is a question designed to tease out the practicalities that legislators seem incapable of considering. 

Full disclosure, I LIKE female/women’s and family restrooms. They’re more sanitary and open. Also, I just had my dad stay with me for three days. Every toilet seat was up. I’ve never appreciated the home training DH provided more.
 

I don’t have any issue with requiring establishments to provide either gender neutral facilities or multiple gendered/non-gendered ones. I object to people being legislated into choices that aren’t of their making. Criminalize behavior/transgression, not identification.

This isn’t what’s happening right now. Even discussing non-het/non-cis norms is a problem for teens in this region. The failure to acknowledge or prevent this harm is huge.

If bigotry is the cause of action/reaction, forced silence is the fuel.

Edited June 22, 2023 by Sneezyone

[Ting Tang]

4 hours ago, Melissa Louise said:

I have to wonder how many actual drag queens are out there tearing themselves apart trying to work out how to be fair to everyone, women included. It wouldn't be non-zero, but it would have to be close. 

This whole thread is so gendered. A bunch of women trying to explain, listen, communicate, because we care about varying populations of vulnerable people, trying to parse out medical studies and laws and rights, all the whole parenting children and teens intensively. 

A whole lot of female labour. 

I would LOVE to be linked to a drag queen forum where there's a thread anything approaching the effort of this one. 

They’re probably having way more fun just doing their thing. LOL 

[Sneezyone]

2 minutes ago, Ting Tang said:

They’re probably having way more fun just doing their thing. LOL 

Meanwhile, sooooo many of our LGBTQ employees chose not to participate in our pride month reel that others stepped in. In prior months, almost everyone I suggested appeared on camera. Many cities in the region cancelled their events. Lost income:celebrations = happy?

Edited June 22, 2023 by Sneezyone

[Ting Tang]

Just now, Sneezyone said:

Meanwhile, sooooo many of our LGBTQ employees chose not to participate in our pride month reel that others stepped in. In prior months, almost everyone I suggested appeared on camera.

I was thinking they were having more fun than debating on the Internet. I know they have their own challenges; it was just meant to lighten the mood. I’m sorry those people felt too afraid I presume.  

[prairiewindmomma]

17 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

Meanwhile, sooooo many of our LGBTQ employees chose not to participate in our pride month reel that others stepped in. In prior months, almost everyone I suggested appeared on camera. Many cities in the region cancelled their events. Lost income:celebrations = happy?

It’s not just lost income. It’s lost community and support. To circle back to the OP, events like pride festivals and story time and other things can help people feel like they aren’t alone and can help families feel supported. The divisiveness of the current environment is causing some people to keep their heads down and to keep quiet. 
 

I drove past our family friendly pride festival this month on the way to somewhere else and they had police cars blocking the entrances to try to prevent someone driving through the event (rather than the usual flimsy road barricade with balloons attached). That is just super sad….and also completely understandable.

[Sneezyone]

14 minutes ago, Ting Tang said:

I was thinking they were having more fun than debating on the Internet. I know they have their own challenges; it was just meant to lighten the mood. I’m sorry those people felt too afraid I presume.  

Yeah, no. One nearly broke down in tears during my brief talk and ours is a city that has not retreated.

Edited June 22, 2023 by Sneezyone