Tell me about your Mathy kids

[wendyroo]

24 minutes ago, 8filltheheart said:

We used an older version of this text Elementary Geometry  It definitely does not approach math like AoPS.  My girls didn't care if math was boring.  They just wanted to get it done.  FWIW, we didn't discover AoPS until ds was in 8th grade, so he did alg 1&2 with Foerster's and that geo book.  His first AoPS course was intermediate alg in 8th. He had zero problems transitioning to AoPS.  So, though "boring," Foerster's texts obviously prepared him for what he needed to know.

My super mathy kiddos also use Foerster's for Algebra 1 and 2, along with playing on Alcumus to add a bit of AOPS challenge.

I haven't found a Geometry book I like, but thankfully so far my kids haven't been very interested in geometry. So I have gotten away with James Tanton's Great Courses lectures: Geometry: An Interactive Journey to Mastery, plus more Alcumus.

And next year my oldest is going to use MIT OCW Calculus.

[Amoret]

59 minutes ago, 8filltheheart said:

We used an older version of this text Elementary Geometry  It definitely does not approach math like AoPS.  My girls didn't care if math was boring.  They just wanted to get it done.  FWIW, we didn't discover AoPS until ds was in 8th grade, so he did alg 1&2 with Foerster's and that geo book.  His first AoPS course was intermediate alg in 8th. He had zero problems transitioning to AoPS.  So, though "boring," Foerster's texts obviously prepared him for what he needed to know.

Thank you! I'll check it out. The problem is always finding solutions manuals. I also have the second Foerster's book. I should pull that out again and take another look.

[Cake and Pi]

4 hours ago, Malam said:

Why did you choose to start with BA4 instead of 3?

He did start with BA 3, but it was in kindergarten, or, well, the very end of pre-k. And the first BA 2 book was released after he finished BA 3A, so he did that in K as well. And I guess it would have been more accurate to qualify that he only did one final chapter from BA 4 in 1st grade because he did the rest of BA 4 in Kinder. Before AoPS I ran 2-3 different programs in parallel at all times with him to keep him happy. He always wanted MORE.

So I may have oversimplified with the earlier summary of what he did in each grade to keep it short. It looks very smooth and flows easily in my two-column list of weekly math in my Excel homeschool records, but it looks pretty convoluted when I type it all out! A more accurate list of what he did, approximately in order, for the early grades would be:

Pre-k/K4: second halves of MEP-1 and RS-B, MEP-2 and RS-C with the 2nd half of Stick Kids Money Mania, and then BA 3A.

Kindergarten/K5: RS-D with Didax Pentominoes, BA 2A, BA 3B-3D, and Algebra Lab Gear: Beginning Algebra; then RS-E with BA 4A-4B; and finally BA 4C with AoPS Prealgebra Ch.1-4.

1st grade: AoPS Prealgebra Ch. 5-7; then BA 5A, 5B, and 5D alongside AoPS Online Prealgebra 2 and Algebra Lab Gear: Algebra 1; then AoPS Online Intro to Algebra A with BA 4D and 5C and the beginning of AoPS Online Intro to C&P; and finally the rest of the AoPS Intro to NT class alongside self-studying Intro to NT from the book (then he took the class for Intro to NT in 2nd grade). -- This was the year where he had a 6-ish month stint of almost nothing but math and math-adjacents.

4 hours ago, Malam said:

Did you run into any developmental issues, like slow/non-existent typing speed?

Yes, of course. He started typing at 3yo, but he didn't have much use for it and didn't care to get better/faster until he was in his first AoPS Online class. At first I sat with him during the live sessions and typed whatever he asked me to, but 1) he would get frustrated that I didn't type it *exactly* the way he pictured it in his head, and 2) he LOVED LaTeX and wanted to type all of that himself, and there's nothing quite like the fury of a 6yo who can't get their answer pushed through to the AoPS classroom because they can't type fast enough! I also started off scribing for him for the writing problems, except for the LaTeX, which he always did himself, and usually the first sentence or so that he typed himself before getting tired/frustrated with his own slowness. He was HIGHLY motivated by his AoPS Online classes to become faster at typing, so that's what he did. He typed more and more of his own work and asked me for less and less help until he was doing it all on his own. Took... maybe a year, year and a half, something like that, to get to typing independence, I think?

4 hours ago, Malam said:

By the university or by the state? Which math competitions occur monthly? Also, if he wants to go deeper into the math competition sphere, there are olympiad books out there more advanced than AoPS' books.

Limited by the university.

The MathRocks competitions are monthly (but I think they're a Nevada-only competition?), and MOEMS was monthly from November through March -- and he competed in both the elementary and middle school divisions. He also did AMC 8 (it didn't occur to me to sign him up for AMC 10 or 12 until afterward) and the state math championship. It's worked out to 1-3 competitions pretty much every month all school year.

He *just* started participating in math competitions this school year. Where we lived before they wouldn't allow him to join any math circles or competition teams due to his age, and he wasn't interested in doing any competitions alone at home. Here they've welcomed him. He's actually not amazing at competition math, and his processing speed is low enough that he'll probably never perform exceptionally well in math competitions. However, he enjoys it and is interacting positively with humans, and that's all I really care about. 

I'd love links to any resources you have. I'm always looking for things to entertain and engage DS#3's interests 🙂

[Cake and Pi]

6 hours ago, 8filltheheart said:

Out of 3 gifted math students, AoPS has only been a good choice for 1 of my kids, the one who thought/saw math in the way he viewed the world.  The other 2 are equally good at math in terms of "doing math" but, no, they didn't want to think about math the way AoPS wants students to process it.  One thinks about languages and literature that way.  The other music.  For them, AoPS is too time consuming and requires too much of their mental processing time that they would rather spend on other things. 

Yes, yes, exactly! I also have three gifted students, and only my DS#3 has thrived with AoPS done the way AoPS intended. I really feel like AoPS is great for kids who enjoy doing math for the sake of doing math and/or who are so radically accelerated that it's in their best interest to give them something they have to really stop and chew on before plowing ahead and getting too accelerated in more superficial programs. But for other kids, even most gifted kids, it's hit or miss (mostly miss from what I've seen!).

My DS#1 is also "mathy" in that he's like 4 years accelerated, but he does math because it gives him access to science and engineering. When AoPS ran out of videos to watch, which effectively circumvents the whole AoPS methodology anyway, his satisfaction with AoPS dropped dramatically. He found no joy in the struggle to figure out how to do math. He wanted someone to EXPLAIN how to do it first, and then he wanted challenging problems to apply that knowledge. For this reason he's done very well with WTMA's AoPS-based classes.

And my DS#2, while equal in aptitude to DS#3, has never liked math. We keep cycling back to AoPS, but he gets so frustrated and just wants math to be over with as quickly as possible so he can focus on what he's actually interested in (not math)! It's been a struggle for me to find math programs he'll willingly work through, though. All the curricula we've tried have been either too easy ("Boring!" or "Insultingly easy!") or too hard (really just AoPS). I'm trying to figure out geometry and algebra 2 for him right now. Are there any others you would recommend, or are Foerster's and that geometry book you shared up-thread your go-tos?

[lewelma]

3 hours ago, Cake and Pi said:

He's actually not amazing at competition math, and his processing speed is low enough that he'll probably never perform exceptionally well in math competitions. However, he enjoys it and is interacting positively with humans, and that's all I really care about. 

My ds found this. He is an exceptionally deep thinker but could not compete well due to nerves and time pressure. The day that an IMO perfect scorer knocked on my ds's door for help with his math homework, was the day that my son truly owned that competitions are not the pinnacle of math prowess.

Quark's son was an amazing mathematician at a very young age. He rejected math competitions completely and focused on math research and his own personal math projects. She wrote a lot over the years about their journey that you could go search up.

[Amoret]

3 hours ago, Cake and Pi said:

Are there any others you would recommend, or are Foerster's and that geometry book you shared up-thread your go-tos?

I have no answer because I am in the same boat -- my DD sounds like your DS2 -- good at math, but doesn't love it. It's so frustrating -- there are so many options for the early grades and so few for the upper ones. When the kids were little, we could switch math programs as their needs and abilities changed, shore up skills with another book, do a second pass of complex material with a complementary program, and add in some fun things here and there.  I miss having a plethora of good options to choose among and to mix/match.

I am going to check out the suggested Geometry book and look back over Foresters Algebra 2, but I'm also considering having DD just do the exercises and problems and skip the challenge problems in AOPS. I don't think that hours of struggling through some of those really tough proofs would be the best use of her time.

[Steppenwolf]

On 4/23/2023 at 1:39 PM, Lawyer&Mom said:

Dd9  is fairly globally gifted.  99th percentile on MAP reading, 98th percentile on MAP math.  But despite her math ability she doesn’t show nearly as much interest in it.  She’s too busy reading to be a mathy kid.  She’s had passing interest in Beast Academy or Life of Fred, but math doesn’t hold her focus.  None of this is a problem!  Except sometimes I think I ought to push her in math, given her ability.  (Enrolling her in AOPS math in-person is an option!)  Please talk me down from this imaginary cliff.  Tell me that her passion for reading/fantasy/history/language is important and that I should support her passions.  And tell me that your mathy kids were already showing mathy interest at age 9.  Thanks!

@Lawyer&Mom

 

Yes, you should support her passions.

 

On the other hand, if you do decide to nudge here in the direction of math, here are my 2 cents.

 

1) Math is often an acquired taste.

 

2) Was dd9 doing Beast Academy on her own? It would help if you actively work with her. Kids of all math levels get stuck once in while or regularly on particular aops topics / chapters / problems. (I've seen this, and there have been plenty of mentions about this on these forums.) This hurts motivation.

 

3) A scheduled aops class may not be the best option right now. The pace may be too fast, and, again, some aops chapters are known to be harder than others for a particular child at a particular point in time.

A self-paced course, like Beast Academy, may work better, at least at the beginning.

 

4) Try different Beast Academy levels? Could be too boring, or too hard? You have access to all levels at once.

 

5) BTW, use BA online (subscription), at least for the above reason. And there is more fun in the online edition.

There are also lots of puzzles there, completely unrelated to the main material.

 

6) It is ok to skip stuff in Beast Academy, and to pick and choose. A lot.

 

7) Try Singapore math? A solid program, but much less problem-solving?

 

Hope this helps!

[Not_a_Number]

19 hours ago, Cake and Pi said:

Then AoPS will ask the student to use that newly discovered concept and apply it to novel situations without modeling or explaining how. AoPS be like, "Here's a little creek. Figure out how to get across it. Good job. By the way, here's how we would have done it. Okay, now that you have that figured out, go ahead and cross this enormous river. Good luck, and if you get too terribly stuck there's a cryptic hint for this one at the back of the book."

Having taught AoPS classes online, that is a correct description. And it did not work for most of the kids taking the online classes. (It's pretty much why I stopped teaching there -- they weren't interested in tweaking things to provide more scaffolding at all, and that got frustrating to watch.)

Edited May 3, 2023 by Not_a_Number

[lewelma]

2 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

Having taught AoPS classes online, that is a correct description. And it did not work for most of the kids taking the online classes. (It's pretty much why I stopped teaching there -- they weren't interested in tweaking things to provide more scaffolding at all, and that got frustrating to watch.)

That is really interesting. I have thought for some time that AoPS is trying to fit into the American system of math education -- 1 year for algebra, 1 year for geometry etc. But yet, their curriculum doesn't align that way.  My older boy spent *years* building up his problem solving skills on the Intro Algebra book, so that when he took the classes, the problem solving was just the next step up.  But for kids who have not built the problem solving skills, the classes don't have enough scaffolding. Basically, AoPS is teaching both the USA standard math content, but at the same time it is teaching an equally time consuming parallel stream of problem solving. It seems that many kids and their parents simply don't recognise that this parallel goal is so time consuming to learn and master. 

[Not_a_Number]

7 minutes ago, lewelma said:

That is really interesting. I have thought for some time that AoPS is trying to fit into the American system of math education -- 1 year for algebra, 1 year for geometry etc. But yet, their curriculum doesn't align that way.  My older boy spent *years* building up his problem solving skills on the Intro Algebra book, so that when he took the classes, the problem solving was just the next step up.  But for kids who have not built the problem solving skills, the classes don't have enough scaffolding. Basically, AoPS is teaching both the USA standard math content, but at the same time it is teaching an equally time consuming parallel stream of problem solving. It seems that many kids and their parents simply don't recognise that this parallel goal is so time consuming to learn and master. 

Exactly. You can’t do those together.

I’ve been using AoPS books as a problem repository for DD10 but I don’t teach using their methods. 

[SeaConquest]

7 hours ago, Cake and Pi said:

Yes, yes, exactly! I also have three gifted students, and only my DS#3 has thrived with AoPS done the way AoPS intended. I really feel like AoPS is great for kids who enjoy doing math for the sake of doing math and/or who are so radically accelerated that it's in their best interest to give them something they have to really stop and chew on before plowing ahead and getting too accelerated in more superficial programs. But for other kids, even most gifted kids, it's hit or miss (mostly miss from what I've seen!).

My DS#1 is also "mathy" in that he's like 4 years accelerated, but he does math because it gives him access to science and engineering. When AoPS ran out of videos to watch, which effectively circumvents the whole AoPS methodology anyway, his satisfaction with AoPS dropped dramatically. He found no joy in the struggle to figure out how to do math. He wanted someone to EXPLAIN how to do it first, and then he wanted challenging problems to apply that knowledge. For this reason he's done very well with WTMA's AoPS-based classes.

I think Sacha is similar to your DS1. He is pretty accelerated in math (Calc BC in 8th), but it has always been as a means to understand science (and more recently computer science). He has liked AoPS camps and classes, but was never a pure math/Epsilon/Math Path kind of kid. Aside from the issues with the discovery method, the all-text nature of the classes and time slot (430-600 PST -- when ADHD meds are wearing off) have been especially difficult for my 2e kid. He is moving to math at Stanford OHS next year because he prefers the structure of their live classes (which purportedly have similar rigor).

[wendyroo]

14 minutes ago, SeaConquest said:

I think Sacha is similar to your DS1. He is pretty accelerated in math (Calc BC in 8th), but it has always been as a means to understand science (and more recently computer science). He has liked AoPS camps and classes, but was never a pure math/Epsilon/Math Path kind of kid. Aside from the issues with the discovery method, the all-text nature of the classes and time slot (430-600 PST -- when ADHD meds are wearing off) have been especially difficult for my 2e kid. He is moving to math at Stanford OHS next year because he prefers the structure of their live classes (which purportedly have similar rigor).

Peter is an accelerated, pure math kind of kid...but AOPS also isn't for him. He has never taken any of the classes; here in Eastern Time they run from 7:30-9 PM, which would never work for him and his med schedule. He also does not deal well with time pressure, so rushing to solve problems and type in answers before the class moves on would be a deal breaker.

But the books aren't a good fit either. He loves deep math and problem solving, but not the discovery method. So he happily uses the books and Alcumus for problem, but always wants to learn from a different source. 

[Malam]

22 hours ago, Cake and Pi said:

Before AoPS I ran 2-3 different programs in parallel at all times with him to keep him happy. He always wanted MORE

Thanks for writing it all out! Did you go through every lesson from all of those programs with all the practice problems and activities or did you skip lessons or skip practice problems/activities?

22 hours ago, Cake and Pi said:

and his processing speed is low enough that he'll probably never perform exceptionally well in math competitions

You might be surprised - the higher you go up the competition chain, the more time you have per question and the less of a role processing speed plays. For example, the AMC 8 gives you 40 minutes for 25 questions, the AMC 10 gives you 75 minutes for 25 questions, the AIME gives you 3 hours for 15 questions, and the USAJMO gives you 4.5 hours per 3 questions. Check out the USAMTS - it's a take-home exam which gives kids all month to work on it and can be used to qualify for the AIME and the later tests. It is of course commensurately difficult.

22 hours ago, Cake and Pi said:

Limited by the university.

In that case, you might be able to get around that limit by enrolling in another university (online most likely)

 

21 hours ago, Cake and Pi said:

All the curricula we've tried have been either too easy ("Boring!" or "Insultingly easy!") or too hard (really just AoPS). I'm trying to figure out geometry and algebra 2 for him right now.

Which curricula have been too easy? Jacobs and Jurgensen are two Geometry texts that get a lot of recommendations here, Jacobs seems to be more on the discovery-oriented side.

For algebra two the main options are Foerster's or Dolciani's Algebra and Trigonometry texts. The former is more modern focuses more on word problems, while the latter is more formal and has challenge problems.

For your mathy kid, what level of proof experience does he have?

Edited May 3, 2023 by Malam

[Arcadia]

@freesia DS18 does a lot of reading up on math in his downtime for his interest in natural language processing and in computational linguistics.

[Cake and Pi]

12 hours ago, Malam said:

Did you go through every lesson from all of those programs with all the practice problems and activities or did you skip lessons or skip practice problems/activities?

I did a lot of compacting, which for him, yes, did involve some skipping of entire lessons in Right Start and MEP. If the lesson had a worksheet I might have him respond verbally, do only every other problem, or select just the hardest 3-5 problems for him to complete. On the other hand, he did every book problem in BA (never tried online, don't think online existed back then) until BA5, at which point I switched to only *requiring* that he do the starred problems since he was already taking the Prealgebra class. However, he usually did more than just the starred problems in BA5 because, you know, he *enjoyed* the BA workbooks, especially the "extra fun" puzzle-like problem sets. Before he hit Prealgebra, I often gave him two (nonconsecutive, if necessary) lessons from RS/MEP about different topics plus perhaps one more lesson or chunk of time from another program (BA, Stick Kids, Algebra Lab Gear, Didax Pentominoes, random workbooks from Costco -- kid really enjoyed workbooks) each day.

So, for example, one week in K he did lessons 94-95&97, 98, 99-100, and 104-105, (commas separating days; we did school only 3-4x/week) in RS lvl D alongside pages 53-65 in the BA 3C workbook. So it looks like the first day that week he probably read from a bar graph, verbally answering the lesson's worksheet questions, and then constructed a bar graph, verbally responding to the questions afterward, practiced telling time to the minute, and did however many pages in the BA3 chapter on division that he wanted -- probably 2-4ish based on how many pages he covered over the whole week. RS-D's lessons 94 and 95 had the same warm-up questions with different numbers, so he probably only did the warm-up from 94, or we might have skipped it entirely if the warm ups were quite similar the previous week and he had already crushed those. Usually a non-drawing RS lesson would take him something in the 5-10 minute range to complete, and he could usually complete anywhere from 4-8 pages in BA per hour (but sometimes more, most I remember seeing was 18 in one hour) without skipping any problems. So what I just outlined for that day probably took 30-40 minutes altogether. Looks like RS-D's lessons 96 and 101-103 were skipped that week. 96 was review, and the others were area and perimeter, which I must have looked at and decided he understood well enough to not need to do. 🤷‍♀️

15 hours ago, Malam said:

Jacobs and Jurgensen are two Geometry texts that get a lot of recommendations here, Jacobs seems to be more on the discovery-oriented side.

For algebra two the main options are Foerster's or Dolciani's Algebra and Trigonometry texts. The former is more modern focuses more on word problems, while the latter is more formal and has challenge problems.

Thanks, I'll look into those!

15 hours ago, Malam said:

For your mathy kid, what level of proof experience does he have?

Uhhhhh, just the proofs they do as part of the AoPS writing problems and whatever was covered in the "Methods of Proof" class he did at Epsilon Camp a couple of summers ago.

[Janeway]

My mathy kids did not like Beast Academy, Life of Fred, or AoPs. Singapore Math followed by Jacobs or Dolciani is what went well for us.

[Malam]

8 hours ago, Cake and Pi said:

Uhhhhh, just the proofs they do as part of the AoPS writing problems and whatever was covered in the "Methods of Proof" class he did at Epsilon Camp a couple of summers ago.

Ok, so if you want some curricular (as opposed to Olympiad) books, I suggest checking out Calculus Deconstructed: A Second Course in First-Year Calculus. It's meant as an honors, proof-based text for freshmen with high school calculus experience. I suggest you get the ebook version on LibGen.rs to see if it's doable for him before buying it and possibly wasting money. Apostol is another rigorous calculus text which is also used by this OCW course, but it doesn't assume previous calculus experience (although it still has some difficult exercises). There's also AoPS precalculus and calc which are likely to have the most competition benefits and be the most accessible.

Outside of curricular or competition math, there are plenty of fun books like To Mock a Mockingbird (really all of Smullyan's books), the Moscow Puzzles, Martin Gardner's articles and puzzles, and some more serious books like How to Solve It by Polya and The Art and Craft of Problem Solving by Paul Zeitz. You could also check this out for an exposition of the breadth of math. Lastly, this game has you use Lean, an automated theorem prover to prove results from basic arithmetic. I found it surprisingly fun, but I did have some programming experience.

Within the competition math space AoPS wiki has a good list here: https://artofproblemsolving.com/wiki/index.php/Math_books#Getting_Started

By the way, has he tried physics yet? If not, I suggest getting Thinking Physics

Edited May 4, 2023 by Malam

[Not_a_Number]

I'm a firm believer in the discovery method and really only teach using it, but I don't like the way AoPS does it. 

Edited May 5, 2023 by Not_a_Number

[UHP]

39 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

I'm a firm believer in the discovery method and really only teach using it, but I don't like the way AoPS does it.

Over the years you've told something here about your approach. What's different about the way AOPS does it?

[Not_a_Number]

3 minutes ago, UHP said:

Over the years you've told something here about your approach. What's different about the way AOPS does it?

I think the description above is right: they give you some very simple examples and expect you to generalize quickly and to fluently apply your generalizations to new concepts. I don't like that approach, even though I would have been a model AoPS kid -- I was motivated by hard problems and worked hard at the generalization. But when I think about which concepts I internalized best, this wasn't generally how I learned them. 

[Mom_to3]

My eldest is a mathy kid, and AoPS has been wonderful for him. The Intro books he worked through problem by problem by himself (unfortunately, we discovered AoPS pretty late, so he only got to work through BA4 and BA5 at a rapid pace when they were already too easy for him), and then started taking their Intermediate classes for fun (while still working through all the book problems simultaneously). He is finishing up AoPS Calc this summer (we postponed/delayed Calculus for as long as possible, as we didn't want to scare off private high schools). He's also been doing pretty heavy-duty proof-based math since the fall and is simply enjoying it tremendously. Right now, our main question is whether to focus on competition math or continue more along the extracurricular proof-based path (hoping he'll have enough time to enjoy both until he figures it out!). He is already in 8th, so not as advanced as Cake and Pi's mathy kid, which might make things a little easier for him and us!

My second is not as mathy, but has been on the Beast Academy/AoPS Prealgebra path, finishing up the AoPS first Intro to Algebra course now in 6th grade. He's enjoying it less than my eldest (math is not his passion!), but is not complaining and doing very well - so we are continuing, since we want him to have a strong foundation (and for us as parents, it is a very easy curriculum since it doesn't require much handholding on our part). My youngest is doing Beast Academy (with some complaints lol). We don't know for how long we'll continue AoPS for those two kids, and, more importantly, if they'll take all the outside-of-the standard curriculum courses like Counting and Probability/Number Theory (probably not all the way to the Intermediate courses). Which gets us back to the original question of following the child's passion. As long as the standard curriculum in math is rigorous enough to your liking, I'd go ahead with following your daughter's passion. If the standard school curriculum is deficient, I'd supplement with math for a bit to make sure the foundation is good. Overall, achievement and sustained interest in the long run will likely be more exceptional if you follow a bright kid's passion. 

[UHP]

6 hours ago, Mom_to3 said:

He is finishing up AoPS Calc this summer (we postponed/delayed Calculus for as long as possible, as we didn't want to scare off private high schools).

I haven't heard the concern in parentheses before. Do I understand, some private schools see a liability in applicants who know calculus?

[Malam]

7 hours ago, Mom_to3 said:

Right now, our main question is whether to focus on competition math or continue more along the extracurricular proof-based path (hoping he'll have enough time to enjoy both until he figures it out!)

After the AIME, the Olympiad competitions are all proof-based, so I suggest doing volume 2 and the AMC 12, studying for the AIME, and then practicing proofs for usajmo. Another is option would be to go the USAMTS route.

[SeaConquest]

On 5/5/2023 at 5:05 AM, UHP said:

I haven't heard the concern in parentheses before. Do I understand, some private schools see a liability in applicants who know calculus?

The problem is that there simply are no classes for these kids to take at a lot of schools. The best high schools in our area top out around multivariable, maybe differential equations and/or linear algebra. For a kid who is doing Calc in middle school, most end up having having to graduate early. So, a lot of people intentionally try to slow the kids down, if there is the possibility of the kid having to reintegrate into public or private school.

Edited May 7, 2023 by SeaConquest

[Condessa]

My three older kids are all fairly mathy, but not to the extent that a lot of the kids here are.  My fourth is my most mathy kid, and is fairly accelerated in math despite his medical struggle and it’s extensive interruptions to his education.  Kindergarten is the only complete school year he’s ever had.  Between the hospitalizations and appointments and the crummy chemo+sick days, he’s had well under half the normal number of school days each year since then.  He’s just turned nine and is finishing third grade, and is about to start AOPS Prealgebra.  I hope it will work well for him.  He quite likes looking over his big brother’s shoulder when he’s doing Prealgebra and trying to answer the questions first, and he absolutely loves Beast Academy.  I do wonder sometimes where he’d be without the constant interruptions.

Do what your kid loves with her.  There’s no need to spend your time together pushing her through something just because she can.  Do something you’ll both love doing together.

[lewelma]

21 hours ago, SeaConquest said:

 So, a lot of people intentionally try to slow the kids down,

Not speaking directly to you SeaConquest, but using this as a jumping off point to people who are new to accelerated math kids.

I did want to comment on the 'slowing down'. I think many newbies could this means not letting kids move forward in math or not letting them do as much math as they want. But what a lot of us mean is focusing on the other stream of math - problem solving. As I see it there are main 2 parallel streams in math -- Content and Problem Solving. The American school system is almost exclusively the Content Stream, so kids get very asymmetrical in their math ability. This is what AoPS calls the 'Calculus Trap'. So 'slowing down', can be put more positively as evening out the skills in these 2 streams by putting a massive focus on Problem Solving and Proof Writing, and not marching forward in content. The Problem Solving stream takes a very long time to become skilled in, but because it is so difficult to 'measure', it is not the focus of a school system that needs data and proof of learning. But my ds found his focus on Problem Solving during middle and high school served him very very well in University and now into Grad School.

[Shoes+Ships+SealingWax]

It would be fascinating to compare the personalities, aptitudes, & ultimate career fields of the different “flavors” of mathy kids represented here.

Ex: Is there some pattern that would indicate that a slower, more methodical student for whom proofs come naturally & who did well with AOPS should end up in Field A, B, or C while a student for whom algebraic reasoning was common sense, who hated writing anything down, loved contests & got frustrated with AOPS but thrived with Foerester is more likely to find their best fit in Fields D, E, F?

Purely an academic exercise, of course. I’m enthralled by people & their patterns. 

[Not_a_Number]

1 hour ago, Shoes+Ships+SealingWax said:

It would be fascinating to compare the personalities, aptitudes, & ultimate career fields of the different “flavors” of mathy kids represented here.

Ex: Is there some pattern that would indicate that a slower, more methodical student for whom proofs come naturally & who did well with AOPS should end up in Field A, B, or C while a student for whom algebraic reasoning was common sense, who hated writing anything down, loved contests & got frustrated with AOPS but thrived with Foerester is more likely to find their best fit in Fields D, E, F?

Purely an academic exercise, of course. I’m enthralled by people & their patterns. 

Interesting question. 

I will say that DD10 found proofs very natural (but then I taught math in a way that made proofs come easy, I think) but would not do well with the AoPS style teaching -- she doesn't care about solving problems for problems' sake enough. She loves contest problem-solving but because she likes winning. 

I think AoPS works for kids who are tantalized by unsolved problem and will keep working on them even if they don't really feel equipped to solve them. That's the kind of kid I was myself, but my two girls aren't like that, even though they are really good at math. 

[Shoes+Ships+SealingWax]

7 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

I think AoPS works for kids who are tantalized by unsolved problem and will keep working on them even if they don't really feel equipped to solve them.

This makes sense. DS10 doesn’t fit either of my example profiles, either. He’s an algebraic thinker who likes games / puzzles / paradoxes but has zero interest in competing & dislikes (but acknowledges the usefulness of) writing things down. BA has worked beautifully for him. Only time will tell on AOPS. 

[Not_a_Number]

8 minutes ago, Shoes+Ships+SealingWax said:

This makes sense. DS10 doesn’t fit either of my example profiles, either. He’s an algebraic thinker who likes games / puzzles / paradoxes but has zero interest in competing & dislikes (but acknowledges the usefulness of) writing things down. BA has worked beautifully for him. Only time will tell on AOPS. 

Yeah, I think there are a lot of different axes here. 

One difference I see between my kids, for example, is that my younger girls will jump ahead and notice things before I teach them to her and my older girl does not, but retains everything that she'd been taught perfectly. Don't know how that correlates with things, but it's interesting. 

[lewelma]

2 hours ago, Shoes+Ships+SealingWax said:

It would be fascinating to compare the personalities, aptitudes, & ultimate career fields of the different “flavors” of mathy kids represented here.

I've often wondered if it is applied vs theoretical interests. I *used* math to answer ecology questions, and I *hate* AoPS and its style of problem solving. Whereas my ds is theoretical. He creates math to solve problems, and loved AoPS and their style of problem solving. 

So for jobs, maybe this cut....

Math Content focus: engineers, mathematical biology, acutuarial science, economics, statisticians

Problem solving focus: mathmaticians, theoretical physicists

[Not_a_Number]

10 minutes ago, lewelma said:

I've often wondered if it is applied vs theoretical interests. I *used* math to answer ecology questions, and I *hate* AoPS and its style of problem solving. Whereas my ds is theoretical. He creates math to solve problems, and loved AoPS and their style of problem solving. 

So for jobs, maybe this cut....

Math Content focus: engineers, mathematical biology, acutuarial science, economics, statisticians

Problem solving focus: mathmaticians, theoretical physicists

I dunno. I like all complicated problems. 

I could be a mathematician or a computer scientist or a teacher or a therapist 🤷‍♀️. Lots of things, as long as there are systems to analyze.

ETA: I’m far too fascinated by this question and don’t want to take over the thread! So that’s enough out of me.

Edited May 9, 2023 by Not_a_Number

[kirstenhill]

3 hours ago, Shoes+Ships+SealingWax said:

It would be fascinating to compare the personalities, aptitudes, & ultimate career fields of the different “flavors” of mathy kids represented here.

Ex: Is there some pattern that would indicate that a slower, more methodical student for whom proofs come naturally & who did well with AOPS should end up in Field A, B, or C while a student for whom algebraic reasoning was common sense, who hated writing anything down, loved contests & got frustrated with AOPS but thrived with Foerester is more likely to find their best fit in Fields D, E, F?

Purely an academic exercise, of course. I’m enthralled by people & their patterns. 

I agree...I am going to be super fascinated by where my mathy boys end up in terms of careers...

DS16 is the one that is old enough to see some of where his trajectory might be headed - He thrived on Beast Academy and liked self-studying through the AOPS Pre-Algebra and Intro to Algebra books but is pretty average at math competitions (he always says he would do better if he had more time).  He was able to accelerate through the rest of the public school math sequence in 8th and 9th grade (Geometry-Alg 2-Pre Calc) to enter a special DE math program through a local university, where he is totally thriving at the kinds of proof writing and "professional problems" - long form, written explanations of proofs/problems to be solved.   He is super interested in all kinds of interesting mathematical topics, loves watching 3blue1 brown videos, etc.  His plan is to double major in math and something else, TBD...he definitely wants a job involving math but hasn't narrowed it down yet.  He's pretty interested in AI, but that's definitely a topic-du-jour right now for lots of people ,so who knows where that will go. 

The next two younger boys are also talented at math but I don't know if they love it the way DS16 does.  I think it's still a bit harder to tell.  DS14 is definitely not as motivated toward acceleration and doesn't want to try to enter the same DE program.  But on the other hand he did both the AOPS PreAlgebra and Intro to Algebra books more quickly and with more accuracy (more problems right on the first try) than DS16.  But while he was the same age DS16 wanted to be watching math videos and reading math books and entering competitions, DS14 wants to be drawing and reading graphic novels and reading about other topics.  He has no clue what he wants for a career.

Then DS11 is a whole 'nother ball of wax...He definitely has a lot of math talent (finished AOPS Pre-A more than a whole year younger than either of the other two boys), his dyslexia plays in strange ways with his math abilities and while at some times he can make amazing leaps of intuitive understanding, he will other not be able to comprehend a problem without a lot of help from me "interpreting" the language and he will randomly forget what math words mean.  "Perpendicular? Why can't they just say two lines that make a 90 degree angle??? Why do they need complicated words for everything?" 😁 So, no idea where this is going for him.  He is at that great 11 year old phase of wanting to be a zoo keeper because baby animals are so cute!

[Clarita]

8 hours ago, lewelma said:

The American school system is almost exclusively the Content Stream, so kids get very asymmetrical in their math ability. This is what AoPS calls the 'Calculus Trap'. So 'slowing down', can be put more positively as evening out the skills in these 2 streams by putting a massive focus on Problem Solving and Proof Writing, and not marching forward in content.

I've been lurking on this thread because quite honestly my eldest is 6 I have nothing that useful to contribute to this discussion, but I am so going to use this to describe to those in my real life what I'm doing with my 6 year old. (No he is not doing AoPS right now he just prefers BA to Singapore, which for us feels like a more direct teaching style vs. problem solving discovery BA style.)

[Malam]

23 hours ago, Shoes+Ships+SealingWax said:

It would be fascinating to compare the personalities, aptitudes, & ultimate career fields of the different “flavors” of mathy kids represented here.

Ex: Is there some pattern that would indicate that a slower, more methodical student for whom proofs come naturally & who did well with AOPS should end up in Field A, B, or C while a student for whom algebraic reasoning was common sense, who hated writing anything down, loved contests & got frustrated with AOPS but thrived with Foerester is more likely to find their best fit in Fields D, E, F?

Purely an academic exercise, of course. I’m enthralled by people & their patterns. 

Stereotypically, I'd imagine the former would be happier with math grad school and proof-based courses while the latter would do better in other stem fields like engineering or physics

[Malam]

20 hours ago, kirstenhill said:

he always says he would do better if he had more time

At the risk of sounding like a broken record, check this out: https://www.usamts.org/

[wisdomandtreasures]

On 4/23/2023 at 11:39 AM, Lawyer&Mom said:

  Tell me that her passion for reading/fantasy/history/language is important and that I should support her passions.  

Her passion for reading, fantasy, history, and language is important and you should support her passions.

Edited May 10, 2023 by wisdomandtreasures

[SeaConquest]

20 hours ago, Malam said:

At the risk of sounding like a broken record, check this out: https://www.usamts.org/

Thanks for this. I will share it with my older DS. When he took both AMCs, he always did better on the 10 vs the 8 because he was allowed extra time for the "harder" test. It's never made sense to me that disability accommodations are allowed on pre-college exams, but not during math competitions. I understand that it's not always feasible for every contest format, but these exams would seem to lend themselves to being more accessible to 2e students. Frankly, I am surprised they haven't been sued into changing the policy.

 

[lewelma]

23 minutes ago, SeaConquest said:

Thanks for this. I will share it with my older DS. When he took both AMCs, he always did better on the 10 vs the 8 because he was allowed extra time for the "harder" test. It's never made sense to me that disability accommodations are allowed on pre-college exams, but not during math competitions. I understand that it's not always feasible for every contest format, but these exams would seem to lend themselves to being more accessible to 2e students. Frankly, I am surprised they haven't been sued into changing the policy.

 

My older boy is not fast. Here in NZ they don't have tests like AMC or AIME -- all math competitions are proof based. So he got into the IMO camp with the equivalent of the USAMTS - a one month take home exam. To this day, he is just not fast enough for things like the AMC, not all kids are. 

[Lawyer&Mom]

On 5/8/2023 at 6:30 PM, Not_a_Number said:

I dunno. I like all complicated problems. 

I could be a mathematician or a computer scientist or a teacher or a therapist 🤷‍♀️. Lots of things, as long as there are systems to analyze.

ETA: I’m far too fascinated by this question and don’t want to take over the thread! So that’s enough out of me.

Go for it!  I love reading these rabbit trails. 

[kirstenhill]

On 5/9/2023 at 5:17 PM, Malam said:

At the risk of sounding like a broken record, check this out: https://www.usamts.org/

We have it on our radar for next year. This year he just ended up too over scheduled - he did a full load of 7 classes at school, plus his DE calc class that meets after school, plus 4 academic extracurriculars and a fall sport.  He knows it was too much and didn't allow any time for passion projects and personal exploration outside the classes/activities.  But he had to figure that out for himself! 

Edited May 11, 2023 by kirstenhill

[RoundAbout]

I have a very mathy kid - Beast Academy, MathPath camp, and local math circles when younger. Just finished AP Calc BC in 10th grade with a 5 on the exam, plus multiple AIME qualifications, USAMTS honors, etc. He's doing WOOT and linear algebra this year as a junior. I did all AOPS at home but intentionally slowed down with things like number theory and probability - I saw no reason to rush to calculus. 

If you had asked me when he was 12, I would say he was definitely headed for a STEM major in career. Nope!

At 16 his interests have completely shifted to languages, linguistics and creative writing. Those interests were always there but have moved to the front. He hasn't slowed down in math ability, but other passions have moved to the fore.

The lesson I've learned with gifted kids is just to support passions and make sure they have the capability to shift to different strengths when the mood strikes.

[Porridge]

9 minutes ago, RoundAbout said:

. If you had asked me when he was 12, I would say he was definitely headed for a STEM major in career. Nope!

At 16 his interests have completely shifted to languages, linguistics and creative writing. Those interests were always there but have moved to the front. He hasn't slowed down in math ability, but other passions have moved to the fore.

The lesson I've learned with gifted kids is just to support passions and make sure they have the capability to shift to different strengths when the mood strikes.

Sounds like my kid! Looking at your sig — could you tell me more about his “History of HUman Languages” and “Evolution of English through Lit” courses?

[RoundAbout]

3 hours ago, Porridge said:

Sounds like my kid! Looking at your sig — could you tell me more about his “History of HUman Languages” and “Evolution of English through Lit” courses?

Our History Human Languages is based around the Great Course led by John McWhorter with lots of supplemental readings. 

Our Evolution of English course was designed and led by DH and including reading Beowulf, several Shakespeare plays, poetry and other works. Plus a little bit of Old and Middle English study. I believe they also used the book _Inventing English_ by Seth Lehrer. 

[Jackie]

On 5/10/2023 at 12:01 PM, SeaConquest said:

Thanks for this. I will share it with my older DS. When he took both AMCs, he always did better on the 10 vs the 8 because he was allowed extra time for the "harder" test. It's never made sense to me that disability accommodations are allowed on pre-college exams, but not during math competitions. I understand that it's not always feasible for every contest format, but these exams would seem to lend themselves to being more accessible to 2e students. Frankly, I am surprised they haven't been sued into changing the policy.

 

Actually, AMC allows disability accommodations on their tests, roughly in line with whatever is in a 504/IEP. The problem is the same as all the other tests - you have to find someone to proctor. Plus, most places aren’t even aware that the AMC allows accommodations, so you have to start by educating whoever is offering the test in hopes they will then proctor.

[SFisher]

On 4/23/2023 at 1:39 PM, Lawyer&Mom said:

Dd9  is fairly globally gifted.  99th percentile on MAP reading, 98th percentile on MAP math.  But despite her math ability she doesn’t show nearly as much interest in it.  She’s too busy reading to be a mathy kid.  She’s had passing interest in Beast Academy or Life of Fred, but math doesn’t hold her focus.  None of this is a problem!  Except sometimes I think I ought to push her in math, given her ability.  (Enrolling her in AOPS math in-person is an option!)  Please talk me down from this imaginary cliff.  Tell me that her passion for reading/fantasy/history/language is important and that I should support her passions.  And tell me that your mathy kids were already showing mathy interest at age 9.  Thanks!

I have a 9 yo son who scores very high in both reading and math MAP tests and is identified gifted in both subjects. He’s had some further testing, and his biggest strength is visual spatial.

Before he could read, he would chase me down and make me read things to him and he would spend a lot of time looking through Books. Before he was fluently reading, he would listen to audiobooks all the time. Now he just reads constantly.

math wise he constantly asks math related questions. He asked math related questions as a toddler. He was doing second grade math before he was in kindergarten. He really wanted to know how to multiply when he was about five and he worked on that on his own by asking questions a lot. He learns whatever they teach him in math at school very quickly. He sometimes asks me to show him how to do certain math equations and he remembers it right away. He does things like sudoku and logic puzzles. He quizzes himself on how long things take, how much things weigh. He has recently taken an interest in baking, and he can convert fractions without any effort.

I suspect that he is good at both of these things because he’s using visual spatial skills so when he reads he imagines the whole world and the people and the whole scenario visually in his mind. I think that he does this with math too.

He goes to public school. He generally just gets fourth grade math. But there is some room for some enrichment at school that we’re working on. At home he plays a lot of board games at an adult level and bakes. He can be really sophisticated in his strategy and planning on games.

my other son is 7 and shows visual spatial strengths,. He’s good at building things from pictures. He’s good at drawing. He can visualize a story very well by making a comic book, or a puppet show or a play. He started making stop motion videos. He was recently identified as gifted in reading. He does well on math, but he doesn’t have much interest in it beyond just completing his schoolwork.

I have strong visual spatial skills and so does my husband. As a kid, I was a very good student. I was really good at math. I enjoy figuring out the puzzle of a math problem. But I was not interested in pursuing a career in math. I pursued a career in graphic design.

I don’t really have any advice to give you, but I just wanted to show you how that visual spatial skill can show up differently in different people.

There’s a term called multi potentiality that you might want to ponder. I certainly came across this as I got older, mostly toward the end of high school. Teachers and advisers would tell me to pursue things that I was good at. There were several things I could’ve pursued that I was good at, but not very many things I was actually interested in. It’s a very weird thing to navigate and you probably have the Junior version of this on your hands.

[Lawyer&Mom]

@SFisher I also have a visual-spatial kid.  Constantly knitting, weaving, sewing patterns she designed herself…  Eight years old and so clearly an engineer of some kind.  She’s easy.

We definitely have a multi-potentiality situation.  Older kid enjoys math, and really enjoys being good at math, but doesn’t really examine the world through a math lens.  Whereas *everything* is connected to fantasy and language!  She could do a lot of things, we will have to see what she is drawn to. 

[SFisher]

They may both be visual spatial, but expressing it differently…. That second kid might find ways to connect the fantasy and math. Animator? Architect? Music?

[lewelma]

I thought I'd bring up that mathy kids can also have synesthesia. My younger did. This profoundly impacted how he interacted with numbers, which I didn't know about until he was about 12. 

[Malam]

3 hours ago, lewelma said:

I thought I'd bring up that mathy kids can also have synesthesia. My younger did. This profoundly impacted how he interacted with numbers, which I didn't know about until he was about 12. 

How did it impact how he interacted with numbers, and did it require you to adjust your teaching?