Should my DD retake Biology? (Also a computer science question)

[TheAttachedMama]

Hi Everyone,

My daughter is a rising 10th grade student.  Here is what she has done for science so far....

6th Grade:   Physical Science with Derek Owens (Pre-Algebra AOPS)

7th Grade:  Biology using the Miller Levine text and 26 labs all with full lab reports. (Most of Honors Algebra I  with AOPS text...not finished)

8th Grade:   Clover Creek Physics (Honors Algebra I repeated, Derek Owens )

9th Grade:   Clover Valley Chemistry  (Honors Algebra II Math, Derek Owens)

She has no interest in taking an AP science class.    She has expressed interest in pursuing an associates degree in computer science (interest is in cyber security) with the goal of cutting time off of school and saving money.   However, I am having to balance that goal with making sure she receives a strong high school education.   

So I am not really sure what I should do next year.   Do you think I would be able to pull her Biology credit up from 7th grade?  Or do you think I should have her retake Biology again?   

The associates degree program has her taking a lot of computer science based classes.  (See screenshots below.).   If she took these as dual enrollment, could  I count these as science credits, or would they be better listed under electives?

 

 

[regentrude]

I do not count computer science as a science course. I know some schools do, but as a scientist I feel it's not comparable. 

[Kassia]

I wouldn't count computer science as a science course either.  I think it belongs as a technology course.

[Matryoshka]

How about having her take another science at the CC, like Zoology or Environmental Science or Oceanography or Meteorology.  I'm guessing she's going to continue in math through Calc (if she wants to do any kind of 4-year CompSci she'll have to anyway) and that point a Calc-based Physics.

Two of mine did a lot of DE.  One did an AS concurrent with high school and still had plenty of time to do core classes like Sciences there as well.

If she's trying to cut time off of a 4-year and save money, be very careful to look at the 4-year where she's planning to go to see if the courses will actually fit into their 4-year course sequence.  Tech degrees tend to have a very specifically regulated sequence (One of mine did a CompSci major and I can tell you that not a single one of the courses you list there would've counted for it), and a specialty IT degree like that will not necessarily fit with it, unless it's designed as a transfer rather than a terminal degree.  Our CC was very clear about which was which - my did Accounting, and there was both a transfer one and one where you went right to work - only the fomer aligned with what the curriculum at the State Unis.  Also, she only cut off the time because she did go to the Public State U - they had a transfer program that guaranteed your credits would transfer to the appropriate courses.  And in order to get that guarantee, I had to actually 'graduate' her a semester early so her last semester at CC was as a college student.  Many homeschoolers who use the CC specifically want to enter as freshmen so don't do that, but since my dd wanted to cut two years off her 4-year degree, she needed that transfer guarantee.

Every state, and even different unis in the same state, have different rules.  If you want to save time and money with an AA, you need to work backwards from what will transfer, or you may well find that all you get is a bunch of generic 'credits' transferred but still have to do the regular 4-year sequence of courses at the 4-year Uni.  Our state had a handy-dandy database where you could put in the CC course and see if, and as what (generic credits or for a specific course that would count for pre-reqs for higher level courses) it would transfer to the 4-year Uni as.

[JenneinCA]

I wouldn’t count computer science classes for science classes either, but I am surprised that any school is suggesting that many computer science classes at once.  The projects could easily be due at the same time and be absolutely overwhelming. 
 

This is coming from the mom of someone who has graduated with a comp sci degree in the recent past.  He never took 4 comp sci classes in a single semester.  And then two more classes on top of that would have been a disaster.

Of course you know the situation and your student better than I do, but I would be extremely concerned about that schedule.

[Matryoshka]

22 minutes ago, JenneinCA said:

I wouldn’t count computer science classes for science classes either, but I am surprised that any school is suggesting that many computer science classes at once.  The projects could easily be due at the same time and be absolutely overwhelming. 

This is coming from the mom of someone who has graduated with a comp sci degree in the recent past.  He never took 4 comp sci classes in a single semester.  And then two more classes on top of that would have been a disaster.

Of course you know the situation and your student better than I do, but I would be extremely concerned about that schedule.

Her dd's only entering 10th grade.  She's got three years to finish those two semesters of classes.  She can just spread them out, and take other classes inbetween.  My dd also started CC in 10th grade, got an Associates' PLUS a bunch of extra credits in for Gen Eds/high school type stuff, and other classes she took for exploration or fun (I think she had over 70?) by the end of high school, and she only took 3-4 classes a semester.

My suspicion is that degree is not meant as a transfer-to-4yr degree, but is meant for older people who want to get some kind of degree/certificate to retrain and then work.  They may also not do it as two straight semester since they're working, but is scheduled that tight so if they're not working they can get it done in a year - especially since it doesn't seem to include any GenEds, which are required for 'normal' Associates.  

I have a friend whose ds did a CompSci transfer degree which did cut 2 years off his Bachelor's.  But he had to take very specific classes which were aligned with the 4-year's course sequence, plus all the GenEds.  None of those classes would've counted.  As another poster said, schools are all different, so the best thing to do is look at the 4-year, figure out what transfers and doesn't, and work backwards.

Edited February 10, 2023 by Matryoshka

[cintinative]

I would not have her take Bio again.  Miller-Levine is solid.  However, I would still try to get four science credits in during the four years of high school.

Others have suggested science options upthread.  Forensic science might be another option.

I am not sure what degree program she is looking at, but the IT program my son is interested in requires general science electives (general chemistry for nonmajors, etc.) Your mileage will definitely vary! I have seen such a huge variation between schools in what is IT, what is computer science, and what is required for either.   Incidentally, these are the kind of classes in the first year at the local university's IT program and also the ones part of their "early IT" program for high school students seeking to get a year of IT coursework done before graduation. My son is currently taking a programming class and a Fundamentals of IT class. You will really have to drill down into descriptions, but it might not be that you will have programming in each as a prior poster mentioned. Again, YMMV. There is so much variation between schools.

 

Edited February 10, 2023 by cintinative

[Clemsondana]

I would look at the course of study at places where she is planning to go to college and see what science they require.  If her goal is to cut time off her degree, look and see if there is a chemistry or physics requirement - I don't know about CS, but computer engineering requires both.  There is also another general science requirement that can be fulfilled by anything.  So, my kid did AP chem, AP bio, and is doing DE physics next year.  i know that you don't want AP, but DE might be able to fulfill some of those requirements - it would have for us, but it was more convenient to do AP.  

What I found was that for my kid's schools of interest, it's not too hard to find gen ed requirements that transfer but most things specific to the degree do not.  For instance, anything in the calculus series transfers but the statistics class is major-specific at the 4-year school and AP and DE won't count.  Nothing tech-related would count as anything but a free elective.  

Looking at what will transfer for engineering or CS at the schools that my kid is interested in, we've chosen to do  DE psych, AP Chem, Bio, and US History and this year are doing Calc BC and AP English.  Based on this year's scores, next year kid will DE whatever math and English are appropriate, first semester physics with calc (required for engineering, not sure about CS), and some sort of social studies that transfers.  I'm not sure what else kid will want to do - I think learning some more programming at home is likely, since kid figures that if the credit won't transfer we might as well choose something interesting and useful to do at home, and maybe a DIY probability class.  

I don't know if this is any help, but I thought it might give you a different perspective.  I taught at a CC at one time and have some friends who teach at various colleges and one of the issues that pops up a lot is students now knowing how the credits that they have earned do or don't fit in with the courses required for their specific degree.  Taking classes that let a kid explore a field is a legitimate strategy whether the credits transfer or not, but if transfer is the goal then figuring out what will transfer and how it will count may lead to some unexpected choices.  

And, all of that sort of jumped the gun - start by looking at the admission requirements wherever she'll go.  If they expect 4 years of science, see what counts.  If they want a bio sci, then pick something different if she doesn't want to repeat the generic class - ecology, botany, anatomy for non-majors if they have something like that.  Nonmajors biology is usually pretty easy - I taught that one year and it was more like 'biology appreciation', and definitely easier than miller levine.  So, if she needs it to check a box, at least it shouldn't be difficult.  

[Malam]

Just a warning - that seems more like an IT degree than a CS degree. Those courses are unlikely to transfer to a university's CS program except maybe the intro to programming class.

She could do 4 years of science without any biology, or study enough biology to pass the CLEP exam.

I would look at your state-level guaranteed transfer program to see which CS courses would transfer, along with the graduation requirements, especially if one of the 4 year institutions is a Center of Excellence: https://www.caecommunity.org/cae-map

[Roadrunner]

I think I would think about what it would take to transfer to a four year school in computer science. That’s what she wants after associate degree, Right? I don’t know which state you are in, but in CA for example computer science is a super competitive admit even for transfers, so she would need a very solid transcript across all subjects. 
Miller Levine is a standard high school textbook and our PS uses it for honors bio. Plenty of kids, most I would say, don’t take any other biology. I would however do other sciences. 

[Clemsondana]

Just talked to spouse, who is a computer engineer and is familiar with CS.  His take - that associates would give a unique skill set and perspective so might be useful in that regard, but is unlikely to knock much time off because those classes aren't part of the CS core requirements.  They might cover a requirement here and there or fulfill a CS elective, but they aren't likely to knock out the first year of classes or anything like that.  

[Arcadia]

My DS18 is applying as a transfer and the courses he has to complete before transferring are more rigid with some being compulsory. He is short on the human biology requirement for UCB and short on public speaking requirement for CSU.   So if he gets accepted, he need to complete the missing requirements by June. The private university he applied to has less rigid requirements. 
An associate degree for transfer is typically a two year course though some people do it faster and some choose to take more time.  The courses listed in your screenshots are like survey courses, good for entry level customer service needs. Are those all the courses that are required because there are only 29 semester credits. It is typically 60 semester credits here for an associate degree. 

[Janeway]

Our public schools here, and all the public school in Texas, count the computer science classes to meet the foreign language requirement. Also, she seems to be successful but still repeating courses. There are so many science classes she could take without having to repeat biology. 

[TheAttachedMama]

22 hours ago, Arcadia said:

My DS18 is applying as a transfer and the courses he has to complete before transferring are more rigid with some being compulsory. He is short on the human biology requirement for UCB and short on public speaking requirement for CSU.   So if he gets accepted, he need to complete the missing requirements by June. The private university he applied to has less rigid requirements. 
An associate degree for transfer is typically a two year course though some people do it faster and some choose to take more time.  The courses listed in your screenshots are like survey courses, good for entry level customer service needs. Are those all the courses that are required because there are only 29 semester credits. It is typically 60 semester credits here for an associate degree. 

Those are just the first two semesters (fall and spring).   Sorry.  I should have been more clear.  That is what she might take next year or spread out over two years.   (Just one option we are considering.)  

BUT--I am not sure if she has enough science credits as is.   Can I pull a Biology class up from 7th grade?   It was high school level IMHO.   She actually went through all of the chapters of Miller Levine, took tests, did homework, did labs, etc.

 

Edited February 11, 2023 by TheAttachedMama

[cintinative]

31 minutes ago, TheAttachedMama said:

 

BUT--I am not sure if she has enough science credits as is.   Can I pull a Biology class up from 7th grade?   It was high school level IMHO.   She actually went through all of the chapters of Miller Levine, took tests, did homework, did labs, etc.

 

There are really two questions here. One is: does the Miller Levine count as high school biology? The answer to that is yes. So it would count toward her total credits. However . . . question 2 is: does her university of choice want to see three or four credits of science in the four years of high school? Only you can answer that.  I hope that helps.

ETA: For example, our university of choice, major of choice requires four years of science from an "accredited high school." I am assuming by that they mean within the four years of high school. 

Edited February 11, 2023 by cintinative

[BusyMom5]

My boys did ML Bio in 6th grade, and I decided to repeat it in 9th grade this year.  It felt like too much time had passed to bring the grade up to high school. They remember everything.  Its been a very boring science year bc they don't even want to do labs or any of the fun things bc we did them in 6th grade.  I'm speeding through the book.   If I had it to do over, we wouldn't do Biology again.  I'd do Anatomy and Physiology instead.   They also did a thorough Chemistry in 8th grade, and I've decided they will just to Chemistry at the college in 11th grade.  I may do a quick review,  but they probably remember most of it.  Next year is Physics, which they haven't taken at a high school level- still picking a class or book.  

If she has any ideas about universities,  take a look at their admission requirements and the CS type degree plans to help you choose the right DE science classes.  The computer classes can vary a lot!  Depending on the exact degree, she might need different levels of science classes, or a different set of classes.  Look at transfer tools to see how classes transfer before you take them.  

[EKS]

I'd have no problem putting the biology course on her transcript.  

I arranged my son's transcripts by subject and for one, I put the CS courses under science because he took them at the CC and that is how they categorized them.  For the other, I put it under math because he took it at the high school and that is how they categorized it.  Both kids had biology, chemistry, physics, and more by way of natural science and both had math through Calculus 2/BC (and one had two years of statistics as well) so the CS wasn't displacing anything.

 

[Malam]

You might have her study for and take the biology CLEP exam via modernstates.org. That should go a ways to showing outside validation that her biology is enough for a HS credit. It may or may not transfer as a college science credit as well.