What should I do for math next year?

[TheAttachedMama]

Ugh.  Usually I have some idea of what I should do.  

My son will be a rising junior.  So far he has taken Honors Algebra I (AOPS text), Honors Algebra II (Derek Owens), Honors Geometry (AOPS text), Honors Precalculus (Derek Owens).  

He seems to understand math, enjoys it, and is doing well with Derek Owens, but he makes a lot of careless errors in math.  (He will add instead of multiply, write stuff down wrong,....stuff like that.).   He says that he wants to major in physics in college at our flagship state university, which is actually pretty selective about who they will accept.   I am not sure if that is the best option for him because, while he is good in math, I don't know if he is good enough in math to be a physics major...you know?  I am also not sure what types of jobs there are for physics majors.   

Next year I am trying to decide between the following options:

1). Continue with Derek Owens Honors Calculus since it is working well

2). Take Derek Owens AP Calculus AB...but will the careless errors get him on the AP test?   Also, is it looked down upon for a future physics major to "only" take the Calculus AB test? 

3). Take AP Calculus BC with Ms. Yen (I've heard she is a great teacher, but again, I have the issue with the concern about the AP test.). 

4). Take Calculus I & Calculus II at the community college (may be free...but I don't have much control over the quality of the teacher or the instruction.  Also, guaranteed to transfer to our state flagship.  I would have to worry about driving my son back and forth, when I have other kids who require a lot of teacher instruction). 

Any other options?    Can anyone just tell me what to do?! (Just kidding about that last part.)

Edited February 8, 2023 by TheAttachedMama

[countrymum]

Can you ask around to see how good the community college math department is? The one I grew up around had a really good math reputation and really helped the kids succeed in college...had tutors ectra. It may help with careless errors to know the grade goes on to college and to have a physical professor... usually you can pick the teacher....or at least class section right?

Otherwise I'd continue on with what's working ...I know nothing about AP though....

[cintinative]

2 hours ago, TheAttachedMama said:

 

1). Continue with Derek Owens Honors Calculus since it is working well

2). Take Derek Owens AP Calculus AB...but will the careless errors get him on the AP test?   Also, is it looked down upon for a future physics major to "only" take the Calculus AB test? 

 

Derek Owens only has one Calculus class, which is to prepare for the AP Calculus AB exam.

I can't answer the "future physics major" part of this.  But in general, you don't have to take the AP exam.  In fact, if I knew for sure that my kids were going to need Calculus for their college course sequence, I would not have them test out of it at all.  I would have them retake Calculus at the college so they understand the expectations of math for the major.  It's totally a personal preference. 

@regentrude Any input for a future physics major?

[BusyMom5]

Following,  bc I will be in the same boat after next year.  I recently found out my 2-year college has a direct path to a technology school (best for engineering in our area).  They offer Calc 1, 2 and 3 and Physics 1 and 2.  I'm still trying to evaluate how the teaching compares,  but maybe you should go in and ask?  

[Farrar]

Agreeing that there's only the one calculus class at Derek Owens. It's AP Calculus AB.

Things to consider: My kid found Derek Owens's AP Calculus to be significantly easier than Precalculus. Precalc is just a meaty course that covers a ton of ground - trig, review and taking algebra concepts further, and introducing calculus. AP Calc was pretty pared down by comparison.

Admissions at colleges like to see AP courses (or dual enrollment). They do not have to see the exam score. So if continuing with Derek Owens is the right call for his math education overall, then it could still be good for admissions even if he can't ace the test. 

That said, obviously you don't get credit without a 4 or 5 on the test. So do take that into consideration.

Seconding using Rate My Professor in helping you make this decision about the dual enrollment.

[regentrude]

Types of jobs for physics majors:

two thirds of all physics graduates continue on to graduate school which in physics is fully funded and won't create any additional tuition cost.
Of those that do not go to grad school, jobs are: engineering applications, computer fields, finance, teaching. Some of our recent graduates work for a company that designs submarines, an electrical engineering company, a water metering company, Boeing, in medical IT, as software developers.
Physics is extremely versatile and the degree highly employable.

Careless mistakes are a developmental thing many students go through, even the ones good in math. Does he have ADHD? Can he develop good habits in writing down his work, such as double-checking, writing on graph paper with equal signs neatly underneath each other, etc? All those may help cut down on silly mistakes.

I would suggest that a physics major should be taking the calculus at the university he is attending, so I wouldn't strive for AP. A solid calculus with a teacher who has been working well for him will prepare him just fine. Before DE at a community college, I would inquire about the rigor. It won't matter that much if he chooses not to actually transfer the credit and retakes calc at his 4 year uni.

Edited February 7, 2023 by regentrude

[lmrich]

My  son  was advised to NOT start his calculus sequence at the  community college as it might not  prepare for the sequence at his university. 

DO's AP Calc gets the job done and gets it done well. He  could take  Stats at the  community college his senior year while taking the AP Calc... 

[8filltheheart]

He is a rising jr?  What are you planning on doing for math for sr yr?  I think that needs to be part of the answer for what to do next yr.

But to step away from that question, you really need to put your ds's strengths and weaknesses in perspective.  A sophomore completing pre-calculus is not a NOT strong math student.   He is advanced.  That is pretty much the long and short of it. (I have only ever had one student who just fills papers with careless errors.  (She is my current 7th grader who completed Foerster's last yr.  I stopped geometry with her this yr bc I just couldn't handle looking at all the careless mistakes.  I am making her redo alg this yr so that the focus is not on the learning so much as paying attention to her details.  This has really worked.  Her work is much neater and thereby not full of errors.)   All that to say, one option would be to make next yr with a focus on mastering his attention to his work.  Or maybe make the decision to take AB at the slower pace with the intent of his working on details.  While I wouldn't worry about the careless mistakes just in terms of the AP, I would be concerned about him continuing them moving forward and that in term impacting him negatively.  

In terms of physics, I have a ds who is a physicsgeek through and through.  He went to grad school but decided after 3 yrs that he was sick of academia and didn't want to stay to the pt of earning his phD.  He walked away with only his masters (plus a random additional yr) straight into a job that he loves and made any doubt about not earning a phd go "poof."  Ironically, he and his wife both entered grad school with dreams of not just physics phd's but post-docs, research, etc.  His wife just finished her phd, but she wants nothing to do with academia/research, either.  She is also completely done.   So, they can think they know what they want to do, and then they can still change their minds and be highly employable.

 

[Clarita]

3 hours ago, regentrude said:

I would suggest that a physics major should be taking the calculus at the university he is attending, so I wouldn't strive for AP. A solid calculus with a teacher who has been working well for him will prepare him just fine. Before DE at a community college, I would inquire about the rigor. It won't matter that much if he chooses not to actually transfer the credit and retakes calc at his 4 year uni.

I think usually for Physics majors even if you get a 5 on the AP Calculus BC exam there is still more Calculus you have to take at your 4 year university to graduate. I want to say at my alma mater with a 5 on the AP Calculus BC exam Physics majors still had to take at least 4 more quarters of Calculus, technically one quarter should have been review of some of the things you learned in Calculus BC. I don't know how Calculus I and Calculus II at your CC would match up to that.

[Atlas]

I was a Physics major myself many years ago. Looking back it was the most enjoyable for me from an intellectual standpoint. Now from the perspective of a parent, I would wish that enjoyment for your son because if he goes through with it, it may very well be the happiest time for him intellectually. 

However, also as a parent, you also want to think about the commercial side for your son. I myself ended up in the dark side of software development and finance. The only thing I brought from Physics is the ability to go as deep as needed and as out of the box as needed.

On the careless errors, if he is neurodiverse, I wouldn't want silly mistakes to get in the way of enjoying math and science. With my dd who has ADHD, I'm happy when I can see the main ideas in solutions and don't really care about silly mistakes. 

[kokotg]

One option is doing AB Calc junior year and BC senior year. That would be the way to do calculus but start it at a slower pace. BC or Calc 1 and 2 at a college are going to cover basically the same material in a year/two semesters. AB essentially covers the equivalent of calc 1 but spreads it out over a year. Some schools offer AB and then BC as a two year sequence and some route students into either AB or BC after pre-calc. My husband who teaches calc thinks most high school students would do better with the BC material spread over 2 years. 

Edited February 8, 2023 by kokotg

[Roadrunner]

Easy. One year devote to Calculus BC and another year to Discrete Math. I am having my 10th grader work through Counting & Probability along with Number Theory this year. 

For a mathy kid I wouldn't bother with both AB and BC. Just do BC. 

[EKS]

If he's doing well with DO, I'd stay the course.  His calculus class is excellent, and I know from personal experience that it is solid preparation for Calculus 2.

Edited February 8, 2023 by EKS

[TheAttachedMama]

19 hours ago, Clarita said:

I think usually for Physics majors even if you get a 5 on the AP Calculus BC exam there is still more Calculus you have to take at your 4 year university to graduate. I want to say at my alma mater with a 5 on the AP Calculus BC exam Physics majors still had to take at least 4 more quarters of Calculus, technically one quarter should have been review of some of the things you learned in Calculus BC. I don't know how Calculus I and Calculus II at your CC would match up to that.

Oh yes!  You are correct.  At the college he wants to attend, there are actually two physics degrees offered:  Physics (from College of Arts and Sciences) and Engineering Physics (from the College of Engineering).  (My son isn't really sure which one he should choose yet.). It looks like in all three, you have to take Calc I, II, III, then Differential Equations (ex. https://physics.osu.edu/sites/default/files/2021-06/fe_sample.pdf).  

 

------

I really appreciate all of you taking the time to help.   After posting, I realized that I need to better determine what my goals with math should be.   Somewhere in the back of my mind, I was thinking that we needed to impress this school by demonstrating rigor in math (and we would to that with either with DE or AP classes).   Is that a valid concern? 

I worry also a lot about paying for college (or helping my DS pay for college).   So I was also looking for ways to cut the cost down for him. 

And finally, I have heard that the classes at OSU are a lot more challenging/rigorous than the classes at the community college.   So now I worry that he will not be ready for such a challenge.   (The general theme of my post seems to be worry~)

 

[TheAttachedMama]

22 hours ago, 8filltheheart said:

He is a rising jr?  What are you planning on doing for math for sr yr?  I think that needs to be part of the answer for what to do next yr.

But to step away from that question, you really need to put your ds's strengths and weaknesses in perspective.  A sophomore completing pre-calculus is not a NOT strong math student.   He is advanced.  That is pretty much the long and short of it. (I have only ever had one student who just fills papers with careless errors.  (She is my current 7th grader who completed Foerster's last yr.  I stopped geometry with her this yr bc I just couldn't handle looking at all the careless mistakes.  I am making her redo alg this yr so that the focus is not on the learning so much as paying attention to her details.  This has really worked.  Her work is much neater and thereby not full of errors.)   All that to say, one option would be to make next yr with a focus on mastering his attention to his work.  Or maybe make the decision to take AB at the slower pace with the intent of his working on details.  While I wouldn't worry about the careless mistakes just in terms of the AP, I would be concerned about him continuing them moving forward and that in term impacting him negatively.  

To answer your first question:  One option would be Calculus BC this year and then Differential Equations at the community college? 

That is good advice:  And since Derek Owens is self paced, we could go as slow as we need to.   And that is one of the reasons I switched to self grading...so I could hand back things that I could tell he rushed through.   BUT, the thing is that my son has dyslexia and ADHD.   He is very smart, but careless errors seem like they may be a life long problem.  (Just like some other things:  We continue to work on spelling, but I have come to accept that he will probably never be a strong speller.  Our goal is to get by in that area.).

[regentrude]

12 minutes ago, TheAttachedMama said:

I worry also a lot about paying for college (or helping my DS pay for college).   So I was also looking for ways to cut the cost down for him. 

And finally, I have heard that the classes at OSU are a lot more challenging/rigorous than the classes at the community college.   So now I worry that he will not be ready for such a challenge.   (The general theme of my post seems to be worry~)

 

If you want to use DE/AP credits to cut the cost down, I recommend looking at the AP credit info on the university's website. For example, at my uni, the by far most valuable AP is Chemistry where a 5 gets students out of taking 9 credit hours!
In general, I recommend transfer or AP credit in the subjects that have no direct bearing on the student's major, i.e. for a physics major, get history, composition etc out of the way, but take math and physics at the university he will be attending.

Edited February 8, 2023 by regentrude

[Clarita]

10 minutes ago, TheAttachedMama said:

He is very smart, but careless errors seem like they may be a life long problem.

I had a lot of careless errors in math too as a teen and through parts of college (I majored in electrical engineering so not exactly the same). It might depend on what he ends up doing as a job, but when you start doing more projects/labs type things in college the careless errors sort themselves out a bit. Mostly because you do the calculations, make the design or do the experiment and your thing won't work or you get some bogus or not repeatable experiment result. Through natural consequences you become more careful. Plus, real life is more gentle with my careless errors than in my academic life.  

[8filltheheart]

25 minutes ago, TheAttachedMama said:

To answer your first question:  One option would be Calculus BC this year and then Differential Equations at the community college? 

That is good advice:  And since Derek Owens is self paced, we could go as slow as we need to.   And that is one of the reasons I switched to self grading...so I could hand back things that I could tell he rushed through.   BUT, the thing is that my son has dyslexia and ADHD.   He is very smart, but careless errors seem like they may be a life long problem.  (Just like some other things:  We continue to work on spelling, but I have come to accept that he will probably never be a strong speller.  Our goal is to get by in that area.).

Well, fwiw, I strongly disagree with this post

2 hours ago, Atlas said:

On the careless errors, if he is neurodiverse, I wouldn't want silly mistakes to get in the way of enjoying math and science. With my dd who has ADHD, I'm happy when I can see the main ideas in solutions and don't really care about silly mistakes. 

It is going to matter at the collegiate level, whether at a CC or a 4 yr U.  Accommodations are not going to excuse mistakes.  Grades will be impacted.  It's one thing to let things slide when they are young and everything about learning can be overwhelming for dyslexics.  But, from my POV, you are really at a pivotal point in what happens going forward.  No one is going to want to hire an engineer or physicist whose work is full of careless errors.  THose errors could cost lives or cost significant $$.  

FWIW, I have dyslexic kids who are engineers/physics majors.  I know the challenges they faced.  Spelling can be worked around.  But learning to slow down and pay attention to details now will only benefit him now, in college, and in a career.

(ETA: scholarships are often tied to GPA.  So if costs are a concern and you are hoping for scholarships, that could cause additional stress in college.  Getting more attentive now vs later could lower his stress long run.)

Edited February 8, 2023 by 8filltheheart

[Atlas]

4 minutes ago, 8filltheheart said:

Well, fwiw, I strongly disagree with this post

It is going to matter at the collegiate level, whether at a CC or a 4 yr U.  Accommodations are not going to excuse mistakes.  Grades will be impacted.  It's one thing to let things slide when they are young and everything about learning can be overwhelming for dyslexics.  But, from my POV, you are really at a pivotal point in what happens going forward.  No one is going to want to hire an engineer or physicist whose work is full of careless errors.  THose errors could cost lives or cost significant $$.  

FWIW, I have dyslexic kids who are engineers/physics majors.  I know the challenges they faced.  Spelling can be worked around.  But learning to slow down and pay attention to details now will only benefit him now, in college, and in a career.

I agree that grades will be affected and professional work will too. I didn't know about ADHD before and looking back I realize now that there were a couple of people who worked in my teams who may fit the bill. I wish I knew then what I know now and regret how I handled some situations. After thinking about it for a while it's really not about letting things slide. Different people have different limitations. In my view, the only use of physics and calculus and computer science for my DC is entertainment. If she gets into some professional field in the future, the only thing she will take with her is her analytical and creative ability. I tell her she needs to be in a leadership role and hire good people :).

[Kristini2]

My oldest just graduated in December with a BS in physics. She will be going to grad school in the fall, but if she hadn’t gotten into grad school she had planned on finding a job in data science/programming as she picked up a fair amount of skill in both while working on her bachelors. 
 

She only took through Calc I DE in HS and ended up starting over as it didn’t transfer to the university she attended. She loved the easy A as she was transitioning into living on her own and juggling a full time college schedule. That said my second had to start over and hated “wasting” time covering things she already knew. She wished she had done Calc II and III in HS (her school wouldn't give credit for calc I, but would have given credit if she had gotten through calc iii) so she could have not backtracked once she got to college. She’s a CS major not physics. So maybe think about what kind of kid you have in making the decision. 

Edited February 10, 2023 by Kristini2

[Malam]

On 2/8/2023 at 3:26 PM, Roadrunner said:

Easy. One year devote to Calculus BC and another year to Discrete Math. I am having my 10th grader work through Counting & Probability along with Number Theory this year. 

For a mathy kid I wouldn't bother with both AB and BC. Just do BC. 

This is an interesting idea. Counting and Probability will definitely help him keep his work organized, as there's a big emphasis in thinking about what questions are really asking and whether or not your answer makes sense at every step. It certainly isn't going to disappoint colleges. The only downside would be that he would leave calculus-based physics until senior year.

I would also second taking AP calculus pathway junior year - there's certainly no shortage of extra free calculus practice books out there (e.g. the book by Chuck Garner). Calculus is also a lot more conceptual than precalculus, so he might surprise you with how well he takes to it.

Edited February 11, 2023 by Malam