Jinger Vuolo - Free Indeed

[Faith-manor]

1 hour ago, Spy Car said:

They will be "addressed." Master's/Grace has a name for it, which slipped my mind at the moment, but she will get "counselling" (of a sort) from those in the hierarchy, and then they will leverage the information they glean against her. That's what they do. 

For real.

This poor woman is not "free."

Bill

They did this to a woman who came to them, in confidence, for help because her husband was molesting their children. They should have reported it. The law! They didn't. And when she left her husband and filed for divorce and sole custody, the church condemned her for the divorce and used the subject material of the counseling against her. MacArthur was furious at her for leaving a pedophile, but not at the pedophile for being a pedophile! They excommunicated her, but not the criminal.

I won't post the link here. It could be a very big trigger for some folks. But, for those that want to know more, it can be googled.

ETA: This happened while they have attended church there, while Jeremy was working on his Master's degree at the "seminary", and while he was working on staff. So no. Jinger is not free of anything at all. She is mired down in a evil organization that will exploit her for her D list fame, and turn on her like ugly on an ape if she ever expressed any thoughts outside what Jeremy and MacArthur have deemed acceptable. 

Edited February 1, 2023 by Faith-manor

[Spy Car]

1 minute ago, Faith-manor said:

They did this to a woman who came to them, in confidence, for help because her husband was molesting their children. They should have reported it. The law! They didn't. And when she left her husband and filed for divorce and sole custody, the church condemned her for the divorce and used the subject material of the counseling against her. MacArthur was furious at her for leaving a pedophile, but not at the pedophile for being a pedophile! They excommunicated her, but not the criminal.

I won't post the link here. It could be a very big trigger for some folks. But, for those that want to know more, it can be googled.

John MacArthur is a monster.

I know this from real life. One of my younger brother's best friends (who was a friend of mine as well) had his family torn apart by this evil cult. He wasn't part of it, but his mother and (particularly) his sister were badly damaged by this cult. Manipulative and abusive.

I know you know. I hope no one else is fooled into thinking GCC/Master's College is in any way a "normal" organization. It is not.

Bill

 

[Faith-manor]

25 minutes ago, Spy Car said:

John MacArthur is a monster.

I know this from real life. One of my younger brother's best friends (who was a friend of mine as well) had his family torn apart by this evil cult. He wasn't part of it, but his mother and (particularly) his sister were badly damaged by this cult. Manipulative and abusive.

I know you know. I hope no one else is fooled into thinking GCC/Master's College is in any way a "normal" organization. It is not.

Bill

 

Bill, I am very sorry for what had to be painful to watch, as well as the loss of a friend. We have "adopted" a young adult we knew very well as a teen who has left her parents  very abusive cult church. It is so difficult to witness the pain and suffering. Fortunately, she is healing, and we love having her as part of our family. She adores our dd, and looks up to her, and has a great camaraderie with our sons, whom she considers her brothers now as she has no contact with her siblings. Hopefully we can support her as she overcomes her trauma.

[Spy Car]

1 minute ago, Faith-manor said:

Bill, I am very sorry for what had to be painful to watch, as well as the loss of a friend. We have "adopted" a young adult we knew very well as a teen who has left her parents  very abusive cult church. It is so difficult to witness the pain and suffering. Fortunately, she is healing, and we love having her as part of our family. She adores our dd, and looks up to her, and has a great camaraderie with our sons, whom she considers her brothers now as she has no contact with her siblings. Hopefully we can support her as she overcomes her trauma.

Thank you. Just to clarify, we did not lose our friend. He always thought this cult was "nuts," and he never bought in. He and my brother remain close.

The damage was to his family. His Mom (who eventually broke away) and his Sister (who was sucked in all the way, and I'm not sure if she is still in--or not). Probably. I believe she married into the cult and with that came all the things that you know come along with that. Heartbreaking.

Bill

[Guest]

3 hours ago, Spy Car said:

They will be "addressed." Master's/Grace has a name for it, which slipped my mind at the moment, but she will get "counselling" (of a sort) from those in the hierarchy, and then they will leverage the information they glean against her. That's what they do. 

For real.

This poor woman is not "free."

Bill

I don’t think you are right. Surely her husband knows what the content of the book is. Surely! If they were controlling her against saying anything like that, the book would not see the light of day. Right? 

[Spy Car]

24 minutes ago, Quill said:

I don’t think you are right. Surely her husband knows what the content of the book is. Surely! If they were controlling her against saying anything like that, the book would not see the light of day. Right? 

I do not claim to know the first thing about this book. Or much at all about Jinger, and nothing of her husband.

What I do know is that "Johnny Mac" (as he likes to be called) runs a spiritually abusive cult. Really bad.

If Jinger Duggar Vuolo is involved with GCC (and it sounds like she is), be very concerned for her.

She traded one abusive cult, for another.

Bill

 

[Guest]

1 minute ago, Spy Car said:

I do not claim to know the first thing about this book. Or much at all about Jinger, and nothing of her husband.

What I do know is that "Johnny Mac" (as he likes to be called) runs a spiritually abusive cult. Really bad.

If Jinger Duggar Vuolo is involved with GCC (and it sounds like she is), be very concerned for her.

She traded one abusive cult, for another.

Bill

 

I hear you, Bill. I don’t know her personally either. But I do know what growing up with the Gothard culture does/can do to a girl and how hard it is to “disentangle” (her term) the things she was taught from reality. 
 

What you’re pointing out is exactly why I said I do not expect this is the last iteration of her reforming her faith. She’s young; who knows what else may happen in her life that will give her pause on what she still/now believes. Most likely, her brother’s “falling into sin” was a big part of her evaluation of what they had been taught. 
 

This stuff takes baby steps. From the book, I think she’s come a ways at this point and I expect more will happen. I think it takes ballz to stand up and say, “I know my parents meant well but this was damaging and wrong.” I’m 51 years old and I barely can say that where my parents will see or know. 

[Spy Car]

1 minute ago, Quill said:

I hear you, Bill. I don’t know her personally either. But I do know what growing up with the Gothard culture does/can do to a girl and how hard it is to “disentangle” (her term) the things she was taught from reality. 
 

What you’re pointing out is exactly why I said I do not expect this is the last iteration of her reforming her faith. She’s young; who knows what else may happen in her life that will give her pause on what she still/now believes. Most likely, her brother’s “falling into sin” was a big part of her evaluation of what they had been taught. 
 

This stuff takes baby steps. From the book, I think she’s come a ways at this point and I expect more will happen. I think it takes ballz to stand up and say, “I know my parents meant well but this was damaging and wrong.” I’m 51 years old and I barely can say that where my parents will see or know. 

I'm just afraid this young woman has made a "lateral move."

She left one patriarchal sect run by a cruel and abusive ego-maniacal cult leader, and joined another. That's sad.

Bill

 

[Guest]

22 minutes ago, Spy Car said:

I'm just afraid this young woman has made a "lateral move."

She left one patriarchal sect run by a cruel and abusive ego-maniacal cult leader, and joined another. That's sad.

Bill

 

Maybe. We’ll see

[Spy Car]

4 minutes ago, Quill said:

Maybe. We’ll see

Umm...I'm telling you Quill, John MacArthur is local. What I'm saying is not news from "afar" for me.

Where he ranks in the hierarchy of abusive cult leaders compared with Gothard, I don't know--because my knowledge of Gothard is limited--but Johnny Mac is a monster. Don't know how to say it more plainly.

This can't possibly turn out well, so long as she's ensnared in GCC.

Bill

[katilac]

5 hours ago, Faith-manor said:

There is literally zero freedom. She simply exchanged one very abusive cult for another one.

I think all fundamentalist religions/denomitations are cults and abusive to some degree, but I do think Jinger is in a better place mentally and emotionally than she used to be. Just being able to question things is a huge step forward, imo, although I do hope they eventually move on. 

31 minutes ago, Quill said:

I hear you, Bill. I don’t know her personally either. But I do know what growing up with the Gothard culture does/can do to a girl and how hard it is to “disentangle” (her term) the things she was taught from reality. 
 

What you’re pointing out is exactly why I said I do not expect this is the last iteration of her reforming her faith. She’s young; who knows what else may happen in her life that will give her pause on what she still/now believes. Most likely, her brother’s “falling into sin” was a big part of her evaluation of what they had been taught. 
 

This stuff takes baby steps. From the book, I think she’s come a ways at this point and I expect more will happen. I think it takes ballz to stand up and say, “I know my parents meant well but this was damaging and wrong.” I’m 51 years old and I barely can say that where my parents will see or know. 

+1

She has done something very difficult to do. Not having eleventy kids she doesn't want? That alone is going to massively improve her life (and that of her children). Not teaching her kids that every misstep will put them in dire danger is another big improvement. I'm not far into the book, but she clearly intends to teach them a less scary version of God, making it easier for them to progress further than her if they choose. 

I know a lot of people say that wearing pants and whatnot makes no true difference, but I think it does (for the individual in question). Not thinking that our clothes are a matter of salvation, and not thinking that you are the one at fault if a man 'stumbles' - those are not small things, it will be less daily stress for her and give her brain more room and peace to think. 

I agree with her being quite young still. She was born into this, and it is a big deal to say my parents were great and my parents were loving, but also my parents were wrong. 

@Quill, I've barely started, but I've already laughed twice: once when she referenced Free Jinger almost immediately, and again when she cast a bit of shade on her parents for taking her to Red Robin for her 21st birthday celebration 😂

[katilac]

5 hours ago, Faith-manor said:

 Jinger did not write the book. She had a ghost writer from MacArthur's staff.

Almost every person who is not a professional uses a ghost writer. She very clearly states that she used a ghost writer,  I don't have a problem with that aspect.

[Faith-manor]

1 hour ago, Spy Car said:

I'm just afraid this young woman has made a "lateral move."

She left one patriarchal sect run by a cruel and abusive ego-maniacal cult leader, and joined another. That's sad.

Bill

 

I agree with this because of what I know of MacArthur and his organization. 

The things that she is denouncing related to Gothard are not the things that demonstrate actual critical thinking about cult think itself. The ghost writer is Corey Williams who is the full time chief communications officer for MacArthur. If you have spent any time deep diving into MacArthur, you find that women have NO agency in the church. They are told what to do and what to think by the patriarchy. Nothing got published in the book that wasn't approved by John Mac through Corey Williams.

As lateral moves go, it is in line with the heart and soul of fundamentalist religious groups. I also think this is very hard for those who have no significant experience with religious cults to understand. The performative issues of clothing, appearance, drinking alcohol or not, education for women, quiverful or not, are actually not the things that lead to deconstruction. And to be fair to IBLP, they relaxed a lot of these rules after Gothard was shown the door in 2014, and upgraded their image. Many IBLP families now use birth control. Many IBLP families are seen at ATI conferences with women in pants and sleeveless shirts, collar bones exposed. They were rapidly losing membership and in order to save the financial scam, they had to make it look more attractive to the younger folks. The underlying theology has not changed.

Again, a sexual abuse victim, the author, was baptized Sept. 2021, into a cult that considers divorcing a paedophile to protect children to be a worse sin than actually being a paedophile. Let that sink in. The kind of leadership who thinks this way is not one bit "better" than Gothard, Jimbob Duggar, Mark Driscoll, Doug Phillips, Doug Wilson, or any other religious leaders whose total depravity has been exposed. She has exchanged one evil, s.o.b. church leader claiming to be the mouthpiece of god for another one exactly like him.

What was said in the book is what Corey Williams decided reflected well on the cult. it is quite fine to poke at other cults who are competition for the money so long as the things poked at are not the things that make people actually question real theology.

In my experience, and I do know a lot of people who have left IBLP and deconstructed very much away from cult like churches, the performative outward stuff wad NOT the stuff that made them think about and ultimately question their faith. It was far deeper stuff than this. Pants, drinking, birth control, those were not the things that set them on the road to deconstruction or major faith change. Not at all. It was more insidious stuff. 

Edited February 1, 2023 by Faith-manor

[Faith-manor]

7 minutes ago, katilac said:

Almost every person who is not a professional uses a ghost writer. She very clearly states that she used a ghost writer,  I don't have a problem with that aspect.

I do. I have a problem with it because the person chosen was NOT a writer for Harper and Collins. It was the chief of communications for John MacArthur, his right hand man. Big red flag. But I don't expect people to understand that if you haven't been a part of the "umbrella of authority" or total, unquestioned male dominance authority churches.

[Lecka]

What is really sad to me is my husband has “thrown the baby out with the bath water” to some extent.  But I also think he’s going through a questioning phase after not being allowed to question.  
 

But I think it’s too bad.  I hate that he has had such bad church experiences and that he still has relatives who are so extreme and judgmental.  It is a hard needle to thread.  
 

I do have a dog in the fight with hoping that he ends up at point x, in some alignment with me, which I can see.  But it’s a hard situation to be in.  But it’s okay with me if he doesn’t end up at point x in alignment with me.  Which is hard in its way and goes against my beliefs in its way, but I think leaving some agency up to my husband matters more than that he comes to “the right answer” according to my beliefs.  
 

Edit:  really I do believe there is a lot of room to be a morally good person separate from religious belief, and I think that is a real and legitimate thing.  But I do have a religious belief, and my husband was raised with a religious belief but in a very non-optional way, so I would like it if he comes to have a religious belief, but he can be a good person that I love either way.  

Edited February 1, 2023 by Lecka

[Spy Car]

12 minutes ago, Faith-manor said:

I agree with this because of what I know of MacArthur and his organization. 

The things that she is denouncing related to Gothard are not the things that demonstrate actual critical thinking about cult think itself. The ghost writer is Corey Williams who is the full time chief communications officer for MacArthur. If you have spent any time deep diving into MacArthur, you find that women have NO agency in the church. They are told what to do and what to think by the patriarchy. Nothing got published in the book that wasn't approved by John Mac through Corey Williams.

As lateral moves go, it is in line with the heart and soul of fundamentalist religious groups. I also think this is very hard for those who have no significant experience with religious cults to understand. The performative issues of clothing, appearance, drinking alcohol or not, education for women, quiverful or not, are actually not the things that lead to deconstruction. And to be fair to IBLP, they relaxed a lot of these rules after Gothard was shown the door in 2014, and upgraded their image. Many IBLP families now use birth control. Many IBLP families are seen at ATI conferences with women in pants and sleeveless shirts, collar bones exposed. They were rapidly losing membership and in order to save the financial scam, they had to make it look more attractive to the younger folks. The underlying theology has not changed.

Again, a sexual abuse victim, the author, was baptized Sept. 2021, into a cult that considers divorcing a paedophile to protect children to be a worse sin than actually being a paedophile. Let that sink in. The kind of leadership who thinks this way is not one bit "better" than Gothard, Jimbob Duggar, Mark Driscoll, Doug Phillips, Doug Wilson, or any other religious leaders whose total depravity has been exposed. She has exchanged one evil, s.o.b. church leader claiming to be the mouthpiece of god for another one exactly like him.

What was said in the book is what Corey Williams decided reflected well on the cult. it is quite fine to poke at other cults who are competition for the money so long as the things poked at are not the things that make people actually question real theology.

In my experience, and I do know a lot of people who have left IBLP and deconstructed very much away from cult like churches, the performative outward stuff wad NOT the stuff that made them think about and ultimately question their faith. It was far deeper stuff than this. Pants, drinking, birth control, those were not the things that set them on the road to deconstruction or major faith change. Not at all. It was more insidious stuff. 

What you are saying about John MacArthur is exactly in line with what I've seen and heard living in (close enough) proximity to CGG for most of my life.

I'm no authority here, but I know more than enough about Johnny Mac and his cult to know it it evil. And that's not a term I toss around lightly.

Bill

[Guest]

11 minutes ago, Faith-manor said:

I do. I have a problem with it because the person chosen was NOT a writer for Harper and Collins. It was the chief of communications for John MacArthur, his right hand man. Big red flag. But I don't expect people to understand that if you haven't been a part of the "umbrella of authority" or total, unquestioned male dominance authority churches.

She understand the wrongness of the “umbrella of authority” teaching, though. It is one of the earlier points made in the book: Chapter 4, Life Under the Umbrella. On pg 66, “Bill Gothard may have coined the ‘umbrella of authority’ concept, but he was certainly not the first person to promote or exercise this kind of authority - the kind that assumes a leader gets to give orders.” And she talks about how Jesus washed the feet of his disciples - the One who had all authority served his followers. 
 

Then, pg 69, “I’ve learned now that when I encounter a spiritual leader, I have to ask two questions: First, are they servant minded? Do they understand their role? Second, are they accountable to God? Do they go beyond the Word of God in their commands and expectations? Do they understand there are limits to their leadership?” 

[MercyA]

35 minutes ago, katilac said:

I've barely started, but I've already laughed twice: once when she referenced Free Jinger almost immediately, and again when she cast a bit of shade on her parents for taking her to Red Robin for her 21st birthday celebration 😂

What's wrong with Red Robin?

Just curious. I don't especially care for it myself. 🙂

[Guest]

26 minutes ago, Faith-manor said:

What was said in the book is what Corey Williams decided reflected well on the cult. it is quite fine to poke at other cults who are competition for the money so long as the things poked at are not the things that make people actually question real theology.

Have you read the book? 

[katilac]

7 minutes ago, Faith-manor said:

I do. I have a problem with it because the person chosen was NOT a writer for Harper and Collins. It was the chief of communications for John MacArthur, his right hand man. Big red flag. But I don't expect people to understand that if you haven't been a part of the "umbrella of authority" or total, unquestioned male dominance authority churches.

Welp, that's on the publisher. 

Even if a different ghost writer was used, I have zero problem believing that everything was filtered through her church. 

Look, I agree that her current church sucks, you'll get no arguments from me there. But I do think that realizing that it's even possible to question the beliefs you were raised with is a huge step for her. And thinking that there's more than one way to love and honor God, also huge. 

Why do I think clothing and quiverfull are important? Like I said, I do think lessening the everyday anxiety and fear over appearance is important, and leaves more room to change beliefs. And I think backing away from quiverfull can be tremendously important for two main reasons: one, eleventy kids are exhausting and it can be tough to put in the work of questioning, which leads to two, it's much harder to leave on your own if you have eleventy kids versus two or three. 

[katilac]

2 minutes ago, MercyA said:

What's wrong with Red Robin?

Just curious. I don't especially care for it myself. 🙂

They had a decade of TLC money by that point; most people go a step up from Red Robin/Applebee's/Chili's for the 21st birthday if they can (they don't take everyone). 

She's not ugly about it, it just seems like a very deliberate naming of the restaurant, lol 

[Faith-manor]

19 minutes ago, Quill said:

Have you read the book? 

Yes. I finally did. I waited until I could come by a free copy because I am not willing to funnel money to MacArthur through the Vuolos. I think my take on her writings are very different from others because of my extensive experience with IBLP and my deep dive into MacArthur and Grace Community.

[Faith-manor]

I won't say more on the topic. Everyone has their own take away.

[Guest]

Ok, Faith. I understand. I know you have a lot of negative experience with IBLP and I completely understand not wanting to go there. 

[Faith-manor]

15 minutes ago, Quill said:

Ok, Faith. I understand. I know you have a lot of negative experience with IBLP and I completely understand not wanting to go there. 

Thank you. That is very nice.

The thing is, discussing it does not bother me anymore. I am in a very good place. But I have realized over the years that whenever IBLP and similar cults pop up in threads, I tend to trigger other people. That doesn't help anyone. And I don't know how to talk about these groups without making the conversation snowball,so I think it is best for me not to comment from here on out.

[Spy Car]

46 minutes ago, Quill said:

She understand the wrongness of the “umbrella of authority” teaching, though. It is one of the earlier points made in the book: Chapter 4, Life Under the Umbrella. On pg 66, “Bill Gothard may have coined the ‘umbrella of authority’ concept, but he was certainly not the first person to promote or exercise this kind of authority - the kind that assumes a leader gets to give orders.” And she talks about how Jesus washed the feet of his disciples - the One who had all authority served his followers. 
 

Then, pg 69, “I’ve learned now that when I encounter a spiritual leader, I have to ask two questions: First, are they servant minded? Do they understand their role? Second, are they accountable to God? Do they go beyond the Word of God in their commands and expectations? Do they understand there are limits to their leadership?” 

She supposedly asked these questions, and then chose John MacArthur?

I don't wish to sound snarky, but what sort of answers was she hoping for?

Johnny Mac is an ego-maniacal cult leader who runs a deeply spiritually abusive cult. How much do you know about GCC and Master's College?

Bill

[Mrs Tiggywinkle Again]

In high school I dated someone who’s parents were missionaries affiliated with MacArthur’s church.  In fact, he wound up going to The Master’s College, though he transferred to (and graduated from) Patrick Henry College in his junior year.  I remain friends with several adults who studied at The Master’s College as well.

I also knew many people caught up in Gothard. my parents were right on the fringe for a while, around ten years.  They went to the basic seminars but thought it was strange, yet I grew up hearing many of the concepts and reading the weird kid books(I only just realized the pineapple story was from Gothard).

I’d take the MacArthur missionaries any day over the Gothard group. I am not of the reformed persuasion; I’m very happily Wesleyan-Baptist, but they were not as bizarre.  The kids(and adults) were actually getting an academic education, intermingling with people of other Christian denominations and even other religions, and working in secular settings(unlike Gothard’s emphasis on home/family businesses).  There is a marked difference.  Everyone I know—and it’s several dozen, truthfully, who grew up IBLP or on the fringes, greatly struggled to adapt to adult, modern life.  The people I know who graduated from The Master’s College are living pretty well adjusted, normal lives with normal jobs.  If Jinger’s girls grow up and want to join an even more mainline denomination, and live a mainstream life, they are going to have an extremely easier time than Jinger has.

I have read the book. Most listened on audiobook yesterday.  The saddest section of the whole thing is how she describes how isolated she was growing up, how they never developed true, deep friendships outside of the family, and how much social anxiety and difficulty that caused her as a young married woman, in a new city, trying to figure out how to make friends for the first time in her life.  Her daughters will have a very different life experience that is going to allow the world to open up for them. 

Edited February 1, 2023 by Mrs Tiggywinkle Again

[Guest]

7 minutes ago, Spy Car said:

She supposedly asked these questions, and then chose John MacArthur?

I don't wish to sound snarky, but what sort of answers was she hoping for?

Johnny Mac is an ego-maniacal cult leader who runs a deeply spiritually abusive cult. How much do you know about GCC and Master's College?

Bill

She did not choose John MacArthur. She married Jeremy Vuolo, who was already involved with John MacArthur. 
 

I know almost nothing about Master’s College and GCC. The thing is, I’m reading *Jinger’s *story. I am reading *her* memoir. I’m not reading a theological guidebook; I am reading one young woman’s story. It has a bunch or corollaries to my own story; for that reason I find it interesting. 
 

I do not find anything useful about trying to determine how far away from religious cults she has traveled or how much further she has to go. I’m just over here waving some Pom-poms, glad she realized that she doesn’t have to answer to her parents’ “authority” until they die.  I’m glad she has just two girls and is not stuck like Anna is. If she goes to college and gets a degree and a job, I’ll be so happy for her I’ll probably send her flowers. 

[Spy Car]

5 minutes ago, Quill said:

She did not choose John MacArthur. She married Jeremy Vuolo, who was already involved with John MacArthur. 
 

I know almost nothing about Master’s College and GCC. The thing is, I’m reading *Jinger’s *story. I am reading *her* memoir. I’m not reading a theological guidebook; I am reading one young woman’s story. It has a bunch or corollaries to my own story; for that reason I find it interesting. 
 

I do not find anything useful about trying to determine how far away from religious cults she has traveled or how much further she has to go. I’m just over here waving some Pom-poms, glad she realized that she doesn’t have to answer to her parents’ “authority” until they die.  I’m glad she has just two girls and is not stuck like Anna is. If she goes to college and gets a degree and a job, I’ll be so happy for her I’ll probably send her flowers. 

Oh dear, oh dear.

If she married a guy who is involved in MacArthur's college/seminary, then she married into a patriarchal cult that is well-known locally for its spiritual abuse, especially of women (who are denied "agency" by the spiritual authority of Johnny Mac).

I would temper the pom-pow waving myself, as marrying into GCC is not "liberating" in any stretch of the imagination.

This is bad news for her. Honestly. I'm sure the gritty details are out there.

Bill

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, Spy Car said:

Oh dear, oh dear.

If she married a guy who is involved in MacArthur's college/seminary, then she married into a patriarchal cult that is well-known locally for its spiritual abuse, especially of women (who are denied "agency" by the spiritual authority of Johnny Mac).

I would temper the pom-pow waving myself, as marrying into GCC is not "liberating" in any stretch of the imagination.

This is bad news for her. Honestly. I'm sure the gritty details are out there.

Bill

🤷🏻‍♀️ Well, we’ll see. I confess I don’t know what you want to have happen here. Unless she’s just telling a 221-page lie, she has moved away from a fair amount of bull crap. Might she still be standing on the farm but not actually in the bull’s pen? Maybe. Still could be a lot of bull crap all around her but it sounds like she’s learned to step around some it. 📣🥳👏

[Lecka]

I married into an “independent fundamentalist baptist” family and it’s just complicated. 

 

I’m prepared to say my IL’s church is cult-like and not “a good fruit.”  But I’m not prepared to say that about related churches I don’t have first-hand experience with.  My husband’s church from high school has many inexcusable things associated with it (aka sexual abuse of teen girls by the youth group leader, who was the pastor’s son… this all happened in Colorado Springs in the early 1990s and I’m sure would

be recognizable to anyone based on this description…. more sexual abuse has come out of the woodwork, truthfully.  
 

But I think they “could have been” a good church. They just weren’t; in truth and in fact. I would have liked for them to be as they preached and not as they were in fact.  
 

But they have done so much spiritual damage to my husband, it makes me so angry.  
 

We attend a progressive Methodist church now.  I am very into-it, my husband is exploring, and my MIL is very vocal about thinking we (I) are not real Christians and she thinks there are Satanic influences in the Methodist church.  
 

Really my MIL feels free to criticize the Methodists but I am the thing making there be a tie to Christianity for her son and her grandkids (through me).

 

It is a hard situation.

 

[maize]

1 hour ago, katilac said:

They had a decade of TLC money by that point; most people go a step up from Red Robin/Applebee's/Chili's for the 21st birthday if they can (they don't take everyone). 

She's not ugly about it, it just seems like a very deliberate naming of the restaurant, lol 

Most people?

I feel like this is coming from a very different world experience than mine...eating out anywhere is and always has been a rare treat in my world. I kinda get what you are saying about money, but background matters too. These aren't people with upper-class fine dining backgrounds, money or no. I just feel like there are cultural assumptions being made here that aren't really applicable.

Edited February 1, 2023 by maize

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, maize said:

Most people?

I feel like this is coming from a very different world experience than mine...eating out anywhere is and always has been a rare treat in my world. I kinda get what you are saying about money, but background matters too. These aren't people that with upper-class fine dining backgrounds, money or no. I just feel like there are cultural assumptions being made here that aren't really applicable.

Well, I think katilac was saying that Jinger herself thought it was not terribly special. I have the book on my lap so…

”To celebrate twenty-one years on earth, and all the privileges that come with it, my mom and dad took me to Red Robin. I had never been before and I haven’t been back since. Afterward, we went to a few stores. This was nothing glamorous but clearly more memorable than whatever I did the year before.” 
 

It’s just a bit funny. Probably Jeremy or someone else along the way asked what teetotalers do when a kid turns 21. When she answered they went to Red Robin and a few shops, she probably realized that’s…a bit dumpy? 🤷🏻‍♀️ It’s more than my parents did when I turned 21 (I.e., nothing) and my parents resolutely behave as though alcohol does not exist, so they surely never have bought me a drink, much less my first (legal) one. She probably did not think much of it until later, when people told her their parents bought them a glass of wine at a nice restaurant. 

[Spy Car]

19 minutes ago, Quill said:

🤷🏻‍♀️ Well, we’ll see. I confess I don’t know what you want to have happen here. Unless she’s just telling a 221-page lie, she has moved away from a fair amount of bull crap. Might she still be standing on the farm but not actually in the bull’s pen? Maybe. Still could be a lot of bull crap all around her but it sounds like she’s learned to step around some it. 📣🥳👏

What I want to have happen? I suppose I'd wish her, what I'd wish anyone, a happy life outside of a spiritually abusive cult.

I do not have an investment in Jinger Duggar. I'm only remotely aware of her as one of the sisters on their show (that I did not watch) and that there were people hoping to "Free Jinger."

If she has gone from ATI/Gothard into GCC/MacArthur, then I'd say take any words about "liberation" and life-lessons learned with an enormous boulder of salt. She married into another cult.

I have no dog in the fight. I do know how abusive John MacArthur and his group are. I'd wish that on no one.

Bill

[Grace Hopper]

On 1/19/2023 at 7:27 PM, Quill said:

That was one of the cringiest moments of all time - which is saying something. “Jinger didn’t mean she wants to live IN a city; what Jinger meant was…” I wonder what Jinger thought when she saw that episode. 

I’m guessing she thought hold my root beer, then decided on LA as the best biggest city and moved. 

[katilac]

41 minutes ago, maize said:

Most people?

I feel like this is coming from a very different world experience than mine...eating out anywhere is and always has been a rare treat in my world. I kinda get what you are saying about money, but background matters too. These aren't people with upper-class fine dining backgrounds, money or no. I just feel like there are cultural assumptions being made here that aren't really applicable.

Most people, IF THEY CAN

I am also not a person with an upper-class fine dining background. A step above Red Robin doesn't approach upper-class fine dining, it's not even in the same universe.  

Jim Bob knows this, lol 

[Acorn]

11 minutes ago, katilac said:

Most people, IF THEY CAN

I am also not a person with an upper-class fine dining background. A step above Red Robin doesn't approach upper-class fine dining, it's not even in the same universe.  

Jim Bob knows this, lol 

I wonder if part of the background also is that her life would not change by being an adult. So while I had an apartment, a job, a car and 3/4 of a college degree when I turned 21, her family bought her a cheeseburger.

[kbutton]

3 hours ago, Spy Car said:

Umm...I'm telling you Quill, John MacArthur is local. What I'm saying is not news from "afar" for me.

Where he ranks in the hierarchy of abusive cult leaders compared with Gothard, I don't know--because my knowledge of Gothard is limited--but Johnny Mac is a monster. Don't know how to say it more plainly.

This can't possibly turn out well, so long as she's ensnared in GCC.

Bill

I have hope for her, but I believe ever word you say about MacArthur, and the truth about him is spreading past the local chit-chat at this point.

Johnny Mac gets a lot of attention on this site that centers all its journalism around churches and church-based organizations, and it's NOT good press. https://julieroys.com/

There are so many more resources out there for leaving spiritually abusive churches, and I think it's possible she can level up again. I hope so; it's obviously not a guarantee.

1 hour ago, Spy Car said:

She supposedly asked these questions, and then chose John MacArthur?

I don't wish to sound snarky, but what sort of answers was she hoping for?

Johnny Mac is an ego-maniacal cult leader who runs a deeply spiritually abusive cult. How much do you know about GCC and Master's College?

Bill

There are so many people who are able to "eat the meat and spit out the bones," which is a valid way of dealing with healthy influences that have reasonably doctrinal differences. It's terrible that it happens with people like MacArthur. But it does happen. I don't know how people deal with the cognitive dissonance, and I think it perpetuates the insanity, but there are people who are in denial and not following "those parts" of the teaching but still let themselves be a part of places like that. It's weird but not a fluke. If I didn't see those kinds of things come up IRL on the regular over 4 decades (thankfully on a smaller and less crazy scale), I wouldn't comprehend it at all.

It's a matter of people giving a heaping pile of salt if their beliefs are seen as similar to one's own. Lots of glossing over. 

I hope she sees the truth and leaves MacArthur's sphere with her faith intact. 

I definitely do not dismiss anything you and others say and expose about MacArthur. Even before hearing bad stuff, he struck me 99% of the time as arrogant and lacking in all grace.

ETA: apologies to all about my typing today, lol! It's atrocious.

Edited February 1, 2023 by kbutton

[Katy]

14 hours ago, Spy Car said:

She supposedly asked these questions, and then chose John MacArthur?

I don't wish to sound snarky, but what sort of answers was she hoping for?

Johnny Mac is an ego-maniacal cult leader who runs a deeply spiritually abusive cult. How much do you know about GCC and Master's College?

Bill

She chose a man who was raised by a reformed pastor and was working as a reformed pastor in a tiny church in a tiny town in South Texas.

My opinion is that he chose to leverage her fame to go get a graduate degree and then a doctorate in LA in an effort to eventually create his own mega church.  But he doesn't appear to have either the work ethic or the charisma to pull it off. He wants to be an intellectual.  He's admitted they live on Jinger's earnings and brand deals, which plummeted when Josh got charged. Hence the book deals and the new house.

I'm suspicious of Jeremy, who chose this seminary and chose to stay in this seminary while all the recent scandals happened.  And because he seems like a lazy, clout seeking condescending jerk to me.  But this book did improve my view of him a little. Mostly because of the scene where he told her he didn't want a stepford wife and then had to describe what that meant.

My knowledge of GCC is limited to recent scandals and a few references from the podcast The Rise and Fall of Mars Hill.  Which is another lovely thing to listen to if you want to dive into religious abuse, but warning to those with littles around: the content and language are for adults.

Edited February 2, 2023 by Katy
Seminary not ceremony. Idk how autocorrect even did that

[Grace Hopper]

14 hours ago, Spy Car said:

They will be "addressed." Master's/Grace has a name for it, which slipped my mind at the moment, but she will get "counselling" (of a sort) from those in the hierarchy, and then they will leverage the information they glean against her. That's what they do. 

For real.

This poor woman is not "free."

Bill

I agree. We spent time visiting a MacArthur-following church. We witnessed “family meetings” including humiliating public “church discipline” of women, while their spouses were let off the hook after repenting. The women paid the price. We skeddadled out of there pretty quick.

[Guest]

Does anyone know if the IBLP Basic and Advanced seminars are still available for purchase? I’m just curious. 

[Pam in CT]

So, this is sooooooooooooooooooo very far from any of my circus, any of my monkeys that let me say, right upfront, I'm extremely unlikely ever to read this book,

therefore,

please skip on ahead if you are (as I am myself, ordinarily) inwardly impatient with That Person who barges into the book group, not having read the book, not having any intention of ever reading the book and nonetheless Feels Empowered to offer up opinions.

 

Pam in CT's Humble Opinion:

17 hours ago, Quill said:

Well, I think katilac was saying that Jinger herself thought it was not terribly special. I have the book on my lap so…

”To celebrate twenty-one years on earth, and all the privileges that come with it, my mom and dad took me to Red Robin. I had never been before and I haven’t been back since. Afterward, we went to a few stores. This was nothing glamorous but clearly more memorable than whatever I did the year before.” 
 

It’s just a bit funny. ...

I beg to differ.

This is NOT just a little bit funny.

This is a freaking masterpiece of literary understatement. 

Whoever that Macarthur communications director is: y'all can do better. There are whole wide worlds out there where your subterranean talents will be vastly better appreciated.

 

 

 

re "that's not what Jinger meant..."  (the only Jinger snippet, or Duggar snippet for that matter, that ever managed to seep out of the osmosis and successfully lodge into my long term memory)

17 hours ago, Grace Hopper said:

I’m guessing she thought hold my root beer, then decided on LA as the best biggest city and moved. 

** snort **

Try to find that Macarthur comms director, will you?  You could be a team.

[Katy]

So @Quill, I’m dying to know if you finished the book yet and what you thought 

[Guest]

Pg 127, she really lays out the problems with Gothard’s rules. I’m going to quote it but I am truncating it some to hopefully keep within copyright rules.

”Imagine…a man and woman get married. They immediately start having children because Gothard opposes any kind of birth control…they ‘re not allowed to go into debt…so they live in what they can afford…they rent….[then], they’re six years into marriage with five children under five years old….the husband works longer hours…[and] is out of the home for ten or twelve hours a day…they’re not allowed to send their kids to school…She feels overwhelmed, unable to handle the responsibility of raising so many kids practically alone. 
 

Then the husband comes home, and the house feels like chaos. But the wife has to have it all together to keep her husband faithful and satisfied…the house must be clean, she must be happy with no expectations, and the children must be well-behaved. The problem is, she’s struggling to maintain her mental health and physical appearance, which is terrifying because it means her husband may start desiring other women…she is told she must be joyfully available to meet her husband’s physical needs…[which] likely means more children…” {emphasis is mine}
 

Jinger clearly sees the problems with what she was set up to believe was correct. I would bet money she already know people in this exact situation. Hopefully not her siblings, since there was at least some money from fame (well, there’s Anna…) But surely others she knew in IBLP. She also mentioned having known many IBLP people who left Christianity altogether. 
 

She may still be in a crappy church but at least she didn’t have fifteen kids before she realized it. 
 

 

[Guest]

5 minutes ago, Katy said:

So @Quill, I’m dying to know if you finished the book yet and what you thought 

No; unfortunately real life intrudes haha. I’m about halfway. 

[Guest]

Also, she did not say this, but I would say the start of the above bad situation was other Gothard rules. Because of the courtship stricture, this couple is young. Because of the anti-college rule, there’s a lot of uncertainty surrounding career/earnings forecast. Because the “girl” is not allowed to work at all, she can’t contribute income. And *then*, on this foundation, they have babies immediately…

[Danae]

1 hour ago, Quill said:

Jinger clearly sees the problems with what she was set up to believe was correct. I would bet money she already know people in this exact situation. Hopefully not her siblings, since there was at least some money from fame (well, there’s Anna…) But surely others she knew in IBLP. She also mentioned having known many IBLP people who left Christianity altogether. 
 

She may still be in a crappy church but at least she didn’t have fifteen kids before she realized it. 
 

 

Assuming she’s read the book written in her name.

[Guest]

20 minutes ago, Danae said:

Assuming she’s read the book written in her name.

Are you assuming she has no idea what the book says? 

[Danae]

23 minutes ago, Quill said:

Are you assuming she has no idea what the book says? 

Nope.  I am making no assumptions either way.

[Guest]

17 minutes ago, Danae said:

Nope.  I am making no assumptions either way.

Ok…I don’t understand why you said that then. Is it a common way of thinking about ghost-written books? I didn’t think anyone wondered that about Prince Harry’s book, Spare. Some people are happy he wrote it (ghost-wrote it), some are not, but AFAIK, people all seem confident he knows what it says.