If your young teen was at someone’s. . .

[katilac]

If public places aren't better bc he has ways of tracking them down, that would have me extremely concerned (as the friend's parent). 

It would not make me feel better about letting my child visit any of the houses in question, though. That would still not happen. 

I'd have to think about ways they could meet in public that could be made safe(r). It would have to involve your son leaving his phone and any other electronics at home (smart watches, etc.), then taking a bus to somewhere I could pick him up. I'd take them to a place they don't normally go, not in any of our neighborhoods, and I'd stay. Out of earshot but always in sight. 

If he is showing up at random public places, he has to be tracking them. 

[Mrs Tiggywinkle Again]

I honestly think you’re in an unusual situation in many ways and most of my advice wouldn’t work.  He knows that there’s always a decent chance that the kids, if not home, will be at one of your in-laws and he can drive right past them and see that.  He doesn’t need a tracking device to figure that out.  And truthfully human nature is such that we consciously or unconsciously like routines and keep our worlds small.  DH would know where to look for me without a tracker(and has) because I go to the same restaurants or stores, the same gym, the same hiking trails, and the kids are almost always either at home, at school, at church on Sunday mornings, or at his sisters or mom’s house.  
 

Usually in your case I’d recommend leaving and living underground for a while. Burner phone not traced to a credit card, pay cash for a two room shady hotel, no communication with anyone from your past life, some waitressing job where they’re happy to pay under the table, no frequenting the type of restaurants or stores you used to frequent.  If you always eat Mexican, it’s time to eat Chinese. But that’s not possible in your case. Your kids need the daily presence of your in laws, and he knows to look there.  

I don’t know that it will help with the friend situation, but I would at least mention to my lawyer that this incident happened.

[bolt.]

On 1/16/2023 at 2:09 PM, Grace Hopper said:

I think it is bad. Aside from most of the kids running into the house, he nearly accomplished what he likely set out to do - catch the kids when they were outside playing, possibly (probably? hopefully?) while adults were indoors and might not notice him right away. 

For me, playing the role of "concerned parent of bystanding young teen" -- I wouldn't be focused on whether the man accomplished what he wanted. That has nothing to do with me. (Obviously it's important to the wider situation, and it matters to BandH and her kids, and we all genuinely care about her/them!)

But, sticking to "what would you do if you were the other parent" -- I, personally, would narrow my focus to the question of whether my child is likely to experience harm or trauma. Not whether the man is okay to be around his own family and how he impacts them. Just whether the man is okay to be around teenage kids in general, and how he impacts unrelated kids who happen to be present when things go down.

From that perspective, I'd consider "my" teen relatively safe, relatively protected, and unlikely to be harmed. The kids were out of the way almost instantly. The adults dealt with the man without involving the kids. Nothing was exchanged but angry words, which were only barely witnessed from a safe distance -- if they were witnessed at all. And it all concluded without the need of police or other use of force (even though the police did become involved after the event had concluded).

If "my" teen was alarmed, I'd follow their lead. Otherwise I would be alert to the situation, but not forbidding house visits just because some adults argued on the lawn.

So, yes, I agree it's "bad" -- it's particularly alarming for BandH and her kids. He's erratic, and he's acting out, and he's not willing to fully abide by a protection order. But it doesn't represent a terribly serious threat against "my" kid, in my opinion.

Edited January 17, 2023 by bolt.

[Clarita]

My kids are way too young so grain of salt is needed with my response. 

I think in this situation I would let my teenager choose. If they are really uncomfortable and would rather not go to BandH's house again then that would be supported. If they feel the need to say that I forbade it even if it really was their decision I would comply. If they didn't feel threatened in the encounter and feel like it's family trauma and they feel pretty safe then I would let them continue as they see fit. 

My thoughts are teenagers don't seem to like parents making decisions without their input. If anything they would furiously rebel any decision that I put in place that they feel are unwarranted. So I'd like to keep them in a place where they are making decent decisions based on the situation they are presented with rather than have it be colored by their rebellion of me. I would let them know I'm a phone call away should they ever feel unsafe in the situation no questions asked.

This would be for a typical teenager, who only makes mildly eye-brow raising decisions. A teenager who has repeatedly made really terrible decisions well that would be a different story,

[Heartstrings]

I know some people have visitation set ups that supervised by trained supervisors, at nuetral locations or a visitation center.  I wonder if something like that would be better than the in laws supervising if only to avoid muddying the waters.  

[Rosie_0801]

1 hour ago, Heartstrings said:

I know some people have visitation set ups that supervised by trained supervisors, at nuetral locations or a visitation center.  I wonder if something like that would be better than the in laws supervising if only to avoid muddying the waters.  

To my knowledge, they are expensive. When my ex generously offered two full days of supervised visitation for me per fortnight, I found I'd have only been able to afford three hours a month.

[Drama Llama]

6 hours ago, Rosie_0801 said:

To my knowledge, they are expensive. When my ex generously offered two full days of supervised visitation for me per fortnight, I found I'd have only been able to afford three hours a month.

In my county it is free but it is capped at three 90 minute sessions a month.  I have heard that there may be a waitlist. 

He behaves way better if I see him with his Dad than if I see him with our joint therapist.  I kind of assume my kids experience would be the same.

 

[Harriet Vane]

10 hours ago, Heartstrings said:

I know some people have visitation set ups that supervised by trained supervisors, at nuetral locations or a visitation center.  I wonder if something like that would be better than the in laws supervising if only to avoid muddying the waters.  

The real danger with this is that the oversight by a stranger often means that stranger has the right in the eyes of the courts to weigh in with comments and recommendations. And frankly, those supervisors may or may not be savvy to the machinations of abusive people. It's a catch-22. We want someone to observe the bad behavior and report it, yet it can really backfire if the supervisor decides the abuser is actually "fine" when they're really not.

[Drama Llama]

43 minutes ago, Harriet Vane said:

The real danger with this is that the oversight by a stranger often means that stranger has the right in the eyes of the courts to weigh in with comments and recommendations. And frankly, those supervisors may or may not be savvy to the machinations of abusive people. It's a catch-22. We want someone to observe the bad behavior and report it, yet it can really backfire if the supervisor decides the abuser is actually "fine" when they're really not.

 

Yep, the other day he asked my kid about the sermon at church.  He's never showed interest in a sermon in his life.  My guess?  He wanted to compare it to sermons online so he can figure out where we're attending and which service.  My kid was either smart enough or honest enough to say "Dad, you know I don't pay attention to that!"  But would a supervisor flag that as an inappropriate question?  

[Mrs Tiggywinkle Again]

58 minutes ago, Harriet Vane said:

The real danger with this is that the oversight by a stranger often means that stranger has the right in the eyes of the courts to weigh in with comments and recommendations. And frankly, those supervisors may or may not be savvy to the machinations of abusive people. It's a catch-22. We want someone to observe the bad behavior and report it, yet it can really backfire if the supervisor decides the abuser is actually "fine" when they're really not.

This happened to my sister, and it went very much against her in the court case. The supervisors, who were minimum wage workers with zero training or education, testified that Dad was amazing and caring and should have 50/50 custody or even more.  Dad was an abusive husband who almost certainly s$xually abused my niece but he could hold it together for that hour every week of supervised visitation. And those supervising workers’ words went a long way in court.

I have so little faith in family court.

I am quite sure that a supervising worker is not at all going to pick up on those leading questions like what was the sermon about at all.  They’re more likely to document that Dad is showing appropriate interest in the child’s activities.

Edited January 18, 2023 by Mrs Tiggywinkle Again

[fairfarmhand]

2 hours ago, Mrs Tiggywinkle Again said:

This happened to my sister, and it went very much against her in the court case. The supervisors, who were minimum wage workers with zero training or education, testified that Dad was amazing and caring and should have 50/50 custody or even more.  Dad was an abusive husband who almost certainly s$xually abused my niece but he could hold it together for that hour every week of supervised visitation. And those supervising workers’ words went a long way in court.

I have so little faith in family court.

I am quite sure that a supervising worker is not at all going to pick up on those leading questions like what was the sermon about at all.  They’re more likely to document that Dad is showing appropriate interest in the child’s activities.

Huge reasons that abused women stay and put up with it.

[Carol in Cal.]

Family court is so crazy.  Judges there enable things that they never would in any other field of law.

[Harriet Vane]

2 hours ago, BandH said:

 

Yep, the other day he asked my kid about the sermon at church.  He's never showed interest in a sermon in his life.  My guess?  He wanted to compare it to sermons online so he can figure out where we're attending and which service.  My kid was either smart enough or honest enough to say "Dad, you know I don't pay attention to that!"  But would a supervisor flag that as an inappropriate question?  

Exactly.

The supervisor would likely report such a question as interest in faith training and interest in child’s activities, both of which are what good parents do. But abusive people can twist absolutely anything to serve their purposes, whether that be personal investigating or purposefully intimidating or other. 

[Drama Llama]

4 hours ago, Harriet Vane said:

Exactly.

The supervisor would likely report such a question as interest in faith training and interest in child’s activities, both of which are what good parents do. But abusive people can twist absolutely anything to serve their purposes, whether that be personal investigating or purposefully intimidating or other. 

Right, and to be fair to this imaginary supervisor, when my kid's grandfather picks him up and asks the same exact questions, I think "I love the way he takes an interest in my kids' experiences!" 

[Sneezyone]

So have friend’s parents allowed further visits or expressed any concern? DD has some families in her orbit that are wouldn’t batt an eyelash.

Edited January 18, 2023 by Sneezyone

[Drama Llama]

Just now, Sneezyone said:

So have friend’s parents allowed further visits or expressed any concern? DD has some families in her orbit that are puking batt an eyelash.

That is quite an autocorrect!

Friend called her dad while my kid was on the phone with 911, and he was there before the police left.  So they definitely batted some eyelashes.  At that point it was "let's get her home, and hear from her, and we'll talk later." We've had one follow up conversation but haven't made any decisions.

They don't usually see each other in person during the week, though, except for facetime and video games, so there isn't an urgent need to decide before the weekend.  

[Sneezyone]

1 minute ago, BandH said:

That is quite an autocorrect!

Friend called her dad while my kid was on the phone with 911, and he was there before the police left.  So they definitely batted some eyelashes.  At that point it was "let's get her home, and hear from her, and we'll talk later." We've had one follow up conversation but haven't made any decisions.

They don't usually see each other in person during the week, though, except for facetime and video games, so there isn't an urgent need to decide before the weekend.  

Ugh. I hope DS isn’t disappointed/disillusioned by whatever they decide to do. Ultimately, they have to do what they think is best for their child and you do too. 🥺

[Drama Llama]

39 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

Ugh. I hope DS isn’t disappointed/disillusioned by whatever they decide to do. Ultimately, they have to do what they think is best for their child and you do too. 🥺

He is so mad, not at her or her parents, but at his Dad, and kinda at the world in general.  

This is my sweet gentle boy who coaches special olympics and wants to be a music therapist.  He is so forgiving and loving, but he is done.  

[Sneezyone]

Just now, BandH said:

He is so mad, not at her or her parents, but at his Dad, and kinda at the world in general.  

This is my sweet gentle boy who coaches special olympics and wants to be a music therapist.  He is so forgiving and loving, but he is done.  

Understandable. You’ve all lost a lot.

[Harriet Vane]

Poor kiddo. 

[Drama Llama]

2 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

Understandable. You’ve all lost a lot.

I can't tell what hurts more, that my oldest is so angry, or that my other kid keeps tying himself in knots to get his Dad's approval.  

[Jaybee]

5 minutes ago, BandH said:

I can't tell what hurts more, that my oldest is so angry, or that my other kid keeps tying himself in knots to get his Dad's approval.  

Well, they are both big deals. (((BandH))) I am praying for wisdom and peace for you as you navigate this complicated situation.

[pinball]

1 hour ago, Sneezyone said:

Ugh. I hope DS isn’t disappointed/disillusioned by whatever they decide to do. Ultimately, they have to do what they think is best for their child and you do too. 🥺

What do you think he’d feel like if his Dad hurts his girlfriend?

[BusyMom5]

I think both reactions are normal.   

Support him in his feelings, they are justified and informed by his Dads actions and how they have affected him.  This isn't the first time Dad has embarrassed him in public or stopped him from doing normal teen things.  I think this kid has a lot of internal stuff he isn't quite ready to share yet, maybe bc he feels its not okay to feel the way he does about his Dad.

Hugs and prayers for your boys!  

[Drama Llama]

9 minutes ago, BusyMom5 said:

I think both reactions are normal.   

Support him in his feelings, they are justified and informed by his Dads actions and how they have affected him.  This isn't the first time Dad has embarrassed him in public or stopped him from doing normal teen things.  I think this kid has a lot of internal stuff he isn't quite ready to share yet, maybe bc he feels its not okay to feel the way he does about his Dad.

Hugs and prayers for your boys!  

I am not saying he shouldn’t feel that way, just that it makes me sad that he’s in a situation that led to him feeling that way.

 

[Not_a_Number]

I'm really sorry, @BandH. What a rotten situation 😞 . I hope your DS's relationship with his friend doesn't suffer...