Advice please primative domanance behaviour in child

[Melissa in Australia]

thank you very much everyone

Edited November 5, 2022 by Melissa in Australia

[KSera]

I know nothing about this when from a primitive dominance place (I didn't know that was a thing), but I wonder if looking at how Pathological Demand Avoidance is handled might be helpful. There may be some overlap.

 

I'm really sorry you're dealing with this.

[Melissa in Australia]

I didn't know it was a thing either, I mean I am dealing everyday with it the child, but didnt know what it was called, and it does make sense. 

Edited November 3, 2022 by Melissa in Australia

[Jean in Newcastle]

All I have seen on this topic is on preschoolers but your child is much older. (And is coming at it from a place of trauma as well as developmental delays. ). 

[bookbard]

I'm no expert, but it sounds a bit like the 'lizard brain' (old brain, primal brain, basal ganglia) vs the 'mammal brain' (new brain, limbic system, neocortex). In other words, the old part of the brain just reacts. Big predator, fight or flight. The new part of the brain is the part where we can regulate our emotions, draw on memories and learned experiences etc. 

I assume what the doctor is saying is that the child's reactions are wholly based on the primitive brain reactions, and he's not using the more complex part at all - and assume he's meaning this metaphorically, because of course, we use all of our brain. 

I don't know that it really helps you all that much - after all, I assume you know that he struggles to regulate his emotions, draw on prior learning and so forth. 

[Melissa in Australia]

Not quite. We already know he is using lizard brain etc. This is beyond that.

He is trying to use domanance traits like a dog or monkey. To be the alpha male. And trying to punch and yell everyone into submitting. Just like a dog would fight to be the king pin of a pack or a monkey or any animal that lives in groups really. 

Edited November 3, 2022 by Melissa in Australia

[Melissa in Australia]

Regarding use of primitive brain. Children who have had trauma  in their younger developing years have a larger aymigdala and smaller prefrontal lobes than the average person. People who have experianced extreme trauma at a younger age have more "brain wiring" going to the aymigdala than other parts of their brain. In their time of trauma their developing  brain thought it essentual for survival.  This is well established in these boys, we have been working to rewire the brain for many years now. 

 But using domanance behaviour is not essentially connected to this. Because of being 11 he also has added hormones. I am not sure how to help him at all. In an animal  setting like elephants they would drive the male teen out to of the herd, dogs would just have an all out fight to re-establish domanance. Humans don't behave like that. 

What to do to help him is the quandary. I don't like getting punched. 

[Jean in Newcastle]

Just throwing something out there that might not work in real life. . . could he be redirected in punching something like a pillow in order to help release some of those hormones/ angry emotions instead of punching you? 

[Jean in Newcastle]

One thing I found in dealing with special ed kids was that I did a lot of anticipation of negative behavior.  I knew certain triggers and would do a lot of modeling before the triggers were set off.  So for example:  "We're going to play a game.  If you lose, you need to say "I'll do better next time" instead of throwing the game on the floor."  Repeat.  Every single time we played the game.  Then one day (maybe months or a year later) we magically would have a time when instead of throwing the game on the floor, they would say "I'll do better next time" and walked away without throwing the game on the floor. 

[Melissa in Australia]

thankyou 

Edited November 5, 2022 by Melissa in Australia

[Melissa in Australia]

Just now, Jean in Newcastle said:

One thing I found in dealing with special ed kids was that I did a lot of anticipation of negative behavior.  I knew certain triggers and would do a lot of modeling before the triggers were set off.  So for example:  "We're going to play a game.  If you lose, you need to say "I'll do better next time" instead of throwing the game on the floor."  Repeat.  Every single time we played the game.  Then one day (maybe months or a year later) we magically would have a time when instead of throwing the game on the floor, they would say "I'll do better next time" and walked away without throwing the game on the floor. 

Yes we do this. And have a very predictable schedule, and team parent, and are completely surrounded in heaps of sensory things. This domanance behaviour is different. I am not doing a very good job of describing it. 

[Rosie_0801]

I suspect you aren't allowed to do any of the things that would work.

(((hugs)))

[Melissa in Australia]

2 minutes ago, Rosie_0801 said:

I suspect you aren't allowed to do any of the things that would work.

(((hugs)))

that is what I strongly suspect

[Melissa in Australia]

A bit of a search in scholarly articles shows it is a thing.. and may lead to all sorts of delightful mental illnesses... bother

 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3383914/

[Katy]

I haven't dealt with this but I know someone who has, repeatedly. They also aren't allowed to do anything that might work. Here police would be called and the child would be hospitalized until they were drugged into compliance.  I can't argue chemical sedation is actually more ethical, but it's legal.

[Melissa in Australia]

this situation isn't bad enough to need the police. I really hope it doesn't develop to that degree

[Katy]

Have you taken enough martial arts classes to learn how to block punches and hits?  You can block hard enough that it hurts without actually hitting.  I might ask a martial arts instructor for a private lesson or 5 and learn how to do that.

[*Jessica*]

1 hour ago, Katy said:

Have you taken enough martial arts classes to learn how to block punches and hits?  You can block hard enough that it hurts without actually hitting.  I might ask a martial arts instructor for a private lesson or 5 and learn how to do that.

This seems wise, especially as he is only 11 and is going to be growing.  Being able to protect yourself from him will only get more important.  *Hugs*

[Innisfree]

3 hours ago, Melissa in Australia said:

 

 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3383914/

I’m so sorry you’re dealing with this.

I haven’t gotten all the way through through the article you linked, but did see this section below. Does he know positive ways to influence others? Maybe emphasizing those, and demonstrating that they can have the desired effects, would help reduce the negative behaviors.

I think our ABA team would have urged us to ignore the negative behavior as much as possible (very difficult when the behavior is physically directed at you; btdt. But the approach did work over time). Make sure negative behavior doesn’t lead to attention, either positive or negative, while demonstrating that appropriate ways to influence others do often work. But I know you have had a team of professionals involved for a long time, and may have tried all this. 

Quote

Dominance coupled with hostility can involve antisocial strategies for taking resources and threatening subordinates, such as manipulative behavior, intimidation, and social or physical aggression. Dominance coupled with warmth can take prosocial forms, such as alliance formation and cooperation, reciprocoal resource exchange, engagement in high status (socially valued) behaviors, leadership, and persuasion (Hawley, 2002). Dominance and aggressive behavior frequently co-occur (Graham-Kevan & Archer, 2009; Winstok, 2009), but even in non-human primates, prosocial dominance strategies may be more effective in procuring power than aggressive strategies (de Waal, Aureli, & Judge, 2000). One important developmental goal in humans is to learn socially competent ways to achieve dominance flexibly, using prosocial strategies (Hawley, 2002). Indeed, rates of physical aggression are highest in preschool and diminish with adequate socialization (Tremblay, 2002). Thwarted dominance strivings are more likely to provoke withdrawal or aggression earlier in development, but as children acquire self-regulatory skills, dominance motivation manifests in more adaptive strategies and thus becomes associated with social success (Schaal, Tremblay, Soussignan, & Susman, 1996).

 

Edited November 3, 2022 by Innisfree

[Dmmetler]

This would be something to check with a therapist on, but one of my friends who has a child who was both physically aggressive and large for his age actually put him in martial arts because there he could spar with the instructors and they could, and did, hit back, and even with pads, etc, eventually he got the message that a)it hurts to be hit and that b) big people haVe the job of teaching and protecting little people. The entire family took classes and lessons and learned how to block and deescalate, and how to turn this behavior into a “ok, let’s go practice”, and it gave him an identity. 
 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Melissa in Australia]

On 11/3/2022 at 11:46 PM, Innisfree said:

I’m so sorry you’re dealing with this.

I haven’t gotten all the way through through the article you linked, but did see this section below. Does he know positive ways to influence others? Maybe emphasizing those, and demonstrating that they can have the desired effects, would help reduce the negative behaviors.

I think our ABA team would have urged us to ignore the negative behavior as much as possible (very difficult when the behavior is physically directed at you; btdt. But the approach did work over time). Make sure negative behavior doesn’t lead to attention, either positive or negative, while demonstrating that appropriate ways to influence others do often work. But I know you have had a team of professionals involved for a long time, and may have tried all this. 

 

 

Edited November 5, 2022 by Melissa in Australia

[mominco]

(((Hugs)))Melissa.

[Not_a_Number]

Gosh. That's so hard. Hugs. 

[Not_a_Number]

One thing I'd wonder is whether you can display dominance without getting physically involved (except to block punches, of course -- that's an excellent idea.) I think we actually all do this to some extent -- we all respond differently to the same words in different tones of voice. 

For me, when I'm trying to stay calm, I don't tend to project authority. I tend to project a sort of... suppressed irritation. My kids react quite badly to that. They are much more easily affected (and weirdly enough, more comfortable) if I project controlled anger and disappointment in a much firmer tone of voice. 

I might experiment with that. I haven't been there at all, so my apologies if this is totally useless. A shot in the dark 😕 . 

[Not_a_Number]

9 hours ago, Melissa in Australia said:

I read that as well and wondered if I have been indirectly contributing to the dominance by ignoring negative behaviour. I wondered could at a subconscious level it be viewed as submitting?  I try and respond in a very level calm voice, sit in such a way that I am not directly looking at him, tell him I am here and will wait until he is calm to help him and just repeat that over and over if he is raging.  After  try to ignore all the negative so not to cause him to feel shame. Always praise or reward the slightest positive. 

My kids absolutely respond to this attitude badly. I do it sometimes anyway. But it doesn't work to affect their behavior. 

So yes, I bet you're onto something. This could be viewed as submitting. 

[Melissa in Australia]

thank you 

Edited November 5, 2022 by Melissa in Australia

[Not_a_Number]

8 minutes ago, Melissa in Australia said:

no sending to room (this is aparently emotional abuse)

Whoa. Says who? Would you really get in trouble for this? Because we absolutely do this sometimes. Sometimes the kids NEED the space and aren't regulated enough to take it themselves. That sucks if that's not an alternative. 

[Melissa in Australia]

1 minute ago, Not_a_Number said:

Whoa. Says who? Would you really get in trouble for this? Because we absolutely do this sometimes. Sometimes the kids NEED the space and aren't regulated enough to take it themselves. That sucks if that's not an alternative. 

It makes kids who have been foster kids feel rejected, therefore it is to them emotionally abusive. 

[KSera]

3 minutes ago, Melissa in Australia said:

It makes kids who have been foster kids feel rejected, therefore it is to them emotionally abusive. 

Does the wording matter? We would tell a raging kid to go to their room until they felt calm enough to come out and rejoin everyone. We didn’t phrase it as as removing them to punish them, it was a matter of giving them time to calm down and be ready again to be with everyone. That is super, super difficult if your hands are tied to that degree. It seems like that could make this kind of behavior worse if he just knows that you’re powerless to give him boundaries. Seems like it could be scary to a kid to feel absolutely no boundaries even when out of control like that.

[Melissa in Australia]

It has been stated in our training  before placement that you are not allowed to send them to their room. Time out is also not allowed. That specific wording of time out. Instead you are meant to do time in. which means spend more one on one to help then feel more attached. We do that. We do team parenting as well, Dh and I swap all day long to give each other breaks. 

 

[Melissa in Australia]

Plus if I could send him to his room I would have to help him go there. That would involve something like holding arm and possably some sort of pulling or manoveing . That is called physical restraint and is considered physical child abuse. 

Edited November 4, 2022 by Melissa in Australia

[Eos]

4 hours ago, Melissa in Australia said:

His response was that I don't scare him. I wasn't trying to scare him, just use more domanant type of body language. 

Kind of sounds like it worked, maybe the psychologist you're meeting with will have more feedback.  

[Innisfree]

I hope the psychologist has some good ideas.

One more thing I remembered from when we were doing ABA— we were told we did need to have a significant consequence (removed in time, not something that would contribute to more raging in the moment).  For the time period when we were doing this, there was very little that we could control that actually mattered to the kid, so finding a consequence was hard. We ended up canceling an extracurricular activity which was enormously important to Kid on the next lesson after any physical aggression. For a while, we even continued involvement in this relatively expensive activity because occasionally withdrawing the privilege of going was the only significant consequence at our disposal. Would that sort of consequence be allowed?

We only had to cancel the activity a handful of times, because it was something the kid really cared about. Coupled with ignoring the behavior as it was happening (which for us meant not talking, not making eye contact, not any acknowledgment of the kid’s presence), and coaching in better ways to achieve Kid’s purpose, the consequence worked, over a period of eighteen months or so. Your issues might vanish faster, since they’re relatively new behaviors.

Of course, involvement in something Kid cared about was valuable all on its own, not just as a way of having a potential punishment available. Continued participation in an important activity was the most positive thing in Kid’s life. It was essential. That activity, in different forms now, but the same basic interest, is a central part of young adult Kid’s identity now. Involvement in it has been overwhelmingly positive.

So, is there anything your kid cares about doing, that could provide both motivation and consequence?

[LostSurprise]

This is a very nuanced behavior, and I think none of us are knowledgeable enough to give you the answers you need. If he is not seeing a behavioral therapist and you and your husband do not have respite care, I suggest you pursue those options first. 

I am not in your position. However, my son has a neurological disorder and takes several medications which effect that realm so I have a some idea of what you're talking about. 

Some things which help me (and may or may not help you): 
*recognizing the signs and having prepared distractions or prepared jokes and stories
*having a calm-down routine (music playlist, youtube videos of kittens, swinging or rocking, audiobooks, time alone, whatever works for him)

*I know this doesn't work for you personally, but I find separating us from the rest of the house/family and just casually chatting/listening to music until he can snap back from the zone

*asking him 'what do you want to get out of this?'

*asking him 'remember when this happened X time? did that work out the way you wanted it to? what can you do differently to make yourself feel better?'

*finding an activity which allows him to control all aspects of something and pursuing it regularly

 

As you probably know, there is a point where talking absolutely will not help, they are hyperfocused on what they are hyperfocused on and can't pull out, but I do find if it is early enough or late enough there can be some evaluation. It doesn't help in the moment though. The moment hurts and is exhausting and frustrating. I'm sorry. 

[itsheresomewhere]

Based on a friend who has an adopted child with multiple diagnosis’s.
 

Does he have a calm down corner/area?  If not, maybe create one for him.  Soft pillows, blankets, small punching bag, calming bags he can crawl into and out of himself. They used a tent so he could feel it was his own space.  
 

I know her journey has been exhausting like yours. Hopefully, you can find a method that works for your family. 

[Wishes]

No advice Melissa, just hugs and more worry for you. The only thing I can think of is unrelenting eye contact but that can trigger more aggression. I genuinely feel that this is not a sustainable situation. Systematically, I think the foster care system takes advantage of couples who take foster children who have therapeutic needs. By allowing couples to bear the majority of individual care, they don’t invest in therapeutic group homes. When children have these complex issues, I just feel that they need to live in a multi-team situation so one person isn’t the focal point of the animosity or even if they are, they’re not with the child full-time so they can have a break from that. And the truth is, a child can seriously injure an adult. I am a strong advocate for children, but I don’t think it’s acceptable to allow an adult to be abused by a child simply because they are a child. I don’t think these children should be criminalized, but there needs to be more resources for the adults involved. Otherwise, there is going to be a point where it is too much. And when it gets to that crisis situation, people are trying to stick their fingers in a dam that is busting around them.

Edited November 4, 2022 by Wishes

[Melissa in Australia]

Thank you very much everyone. It is always very good to hear other perspectives. It greatly helps to think things through.

We live rural, so he has heaps of places where he can and does retreat to to calm down. At the moment his favourite calm down thing is stting along the fence of the cow paddock and watching the willy wagtails sit on the cow's back. 

We do have 4 hours respite a week.