What would you do?

[Rosie_0801]

3 hours ago, TexasProud said:

He is the humblest guy on the planet. He does sweet things for me all the time.  He is totally content with my being his only friend, and I feel somewhat disloyal that he isn't enough for me. 

Does he think you're disloyal?

[Rosie_0801]

It really seems like you feel all these horrible emotions and believe all these unrealistic things because you think you have to to be a decent person. 

It is really important to stock take your beliefs and ensure what you believe is really true. People believe all sorts of things based on feelings and imagination, rather actually realities.

You can't be a bad person for needing more than one friend. 
You can't be a bad person for not being superhuman.

Those things are just too normal.

You carry guilt for things that really aren't your fault.
Health problems are part Acts of God and part consequences of the life choices made by the person with the health problem. 

If I evaluated my life by your rules, I'm a far, far, far worse person, if that's any consolation. 

[fairfarmhand]

It’s actually terribly unhealthy for men to have nobody but their wives for friends. So I don’t think that’s necessarily an admirable trait. Women generally have a wider circle of friends than men do. 

[Melissa in Australia]

2 hours ago, TexasProud said:

 

🙂 I tend to post here when I am super lonely because I have no one else to talk to.

I think lots of us are in that boat

[katilac]

On 9/25/2022 at 9:18 PM, Melissa in Australia said:

I suggest if you are after a theological debate it would be best to start a different thread

These ideas stem fairly directly from the OP and subsequent posts, though. Once you get all philosophical about the meaning of life, and how life should be spent, theology is pretty much at the party. 

14 hours ago, Murphy101 said:

But… feelings are fleeting. Love is a daily commitment of action regardless of feelings. 

I've heard this said of romantic love or infatuation, and yes, romantic love and marital partnership require commitment and action to stay strong in most cases. To me, the inverse is not true: a daily commitment of action, with no accompanying feeling, is not love. Love may flourish best when commitments are honored, but honoring commitments does not equal love. 

Even if you believe this wholeheartedly regarding marriage, I don't see how it extends to other forms of love. I'd certainly never consider my feelings of love for my kids and other family members to be fleeting. I have nieces and nephews that I don't get to see all the time, but I still very much love them. Both in regards to the warm rush of feeling that most recognize as love, and in regards to the willingness to take loving action for them, even though it's far from daily. 

I have family members who died years ago. I'm not taking loving actions towards them, and they aren't taking any toward me that I'm aware of, but I still love them.  

I can get behind the idea that your actions should reflect your love, absolutely. But love as only a form of action? No, personal love is a thing. 

12 hours ago, LaughingCat said:

For me personally, the period of being 'in love' is the only time I've had consistent ongoing feelings of "wanting to be with them, missing them, thinking about them, warm feelings."   I do have moments where I get a burst of that feeling -- but definitely not on demand.    I can't actually imagine expecting myself to feel like all the time about someone -- especially when I'm doing extremely tedious tasks like laundry, cooking meals or picking up toys (i.e. most of the day it seems like!)   Personally I find just the fact that I'm still willing to do the tedious tasks for them as proof that I love them -- I don't expect myself to be having warm feelings while I do it.  

I mean, I don't have warm feelings about doing the laundry, but I'd say I pretty consistently have warm feelings about the people I do laundry for. OP is struggling with what it means to love someone at all, and with the fact that she doesn't seem to have much feeling attached to the words when she says them. 

I don't regard doing tedious tasks for people as proof of loving them (although we might joke about it). Lots of people will honor commitments and do what they feel is expected of them, but that doesn't automatically mean they love their family or have much of a connection with them. Not saying this is your situtation at all, just pointing out that it isn't a general proof of love. 

11 hours ago, TexasProud said:

Because of this group, I reached out in January and then again in June. That is where I got two of those counselors I described. Useless. Many, many, many I called were not seeing any new patients. No one local at all. Those most recent two were online.  So yeah, if someone can give me a name of someone GOOD who is also taking new patients, then by all means message me. Otherwise. I am done trying to find one.

I didn't save the post to quote, but I think you could do well well with structured workbooks like one poster suggested, along with the more informal questioning and journaling that I suggested. In addition to examining thoughts about love as a feeling and love as an action, maybe look at a list of common cognitive distortions and start reading about the ones that strike a familiar note with you. 

I have never been in formal therapy, but I have done lots of therapeutic work, and it's been very valuable. It can take a really long time to overcome certain modes of thinking, or to even realize that you want to overcome them, but I think that one of the purposes of life is self-realization and a steady openness to growth and changing your mind. 

Medication can also be a good tool, and most regular doctors will prescribe the established antidepressants to try. 

If working makes you happier, then by all means you should be working. @regentrudehad some good starter ideas for contract work that you can start to explore. I think you were looking forward to the mission trips as well, but there may come a point at which you have to decide on a balance between those, which sound fulfilling for dh, and a more steady career, if that's what will fulfill you. But I don't think work alone is your full answer here. 

[Murphy101]

3 hours ago, katilac said:

I've heard this said of romantic love or infatuation, and yes, romantic love and marital partnership require commitment and action to stay strong in most cases. To me, the inverse is not true: a daily commitment of action, with no accompanying feeling, is not love. Love may flourish best when commitments are honored, but honoring commitments does not equal love. 

🤷‍♀️ I disagree. For me it’s like that scene in Fiddler in the Roof where he is asking his wife “… but do you love me?!” And she’s looking at him like he is an annoying idiot and singing back, “… what?! Have I not been here all this time cleaning your laundry?!”

Her answer is, yes, she loves him.

Committing to love someone every day is very real.

3 hours ago, katilac said:

Even if you believe this wholeheartedly regarding marriage, I don't see how it extends to other forms of love. I'd certainly never consider my feelings of love for my kids and other family members to be fleeting. I have nieces and nephews that I don't get to see all the time, but I still very much love them. Both in regards to the warm rush of feeling that most recognize as love, and in regards to the willingness to take loving action for them, even though it's far from daily. 
 

Well if you’ve never struggled to be your best to someone you love because the way they made you feel wasn’t very sweet and cozy - that’s genuinely great for you.

But for all the moms out there who genuinely love their kids even though postpartum depression makes them feel like they don’t, or who struggle to balance their kids or spouse needs with their own desires but still love them, or have felt betrayed and broken over grown kids who don’t love them back - loving kids isn’t all hallmark movie inspiring.  The feelings for kids and loved ones in general are fleeting in the sense that we may always love them, but we sure don’t always like them.

3 hours ago, katilac said:

I have family members who died years ago. I'm not taking loving actions towards them, and they aren't taking any toward me that I'm aware of, but I still love them.  
 

That’s sad to me. Because I think they are and I do. We pray for them and ask for their prayers.  We tend their graves. We remember them on the day they died. We share memories of them so they are not forgotten. Is this not loving those who are not physically with us?

3 hours ago, katilac said:

I can get behind the idea that your actions should reflect your love, absolutely. But love as only a form of action? No, personal love is a thing. 

Again. Love is action. Done personally, not begrudgingly, but whole-heartedly. 

[TexasProud]

4 hours ago, katilac said:

These ideas stem fairly directly from the OP and subsequent posts, though. Once you get all philosophical about the meaning of life, and how life should be spent, theology is pretty much at the party. 

I've heard this said of romantic love or infatuation, and yes, romantic love and marital partnership require commitment and action to stay strong in most cases. To me, the inverse is not true: a daily commitment of action, with no accompanying feeling, is not love. Love may flourish best when commitments are honored, but honoring commitments does not equal love. 

Even if you believe this wholeheartedly regarding marriage, I don't see how it extends to other forms of love. I'd certainly never consider my feelings of love for my kids and other family members to be fleeting. I have nieces and nephews that I don't get to see all the time, but I still very much love them. Both in regards to the warm rush of feeling that most recognize as love, and in regards to the willingness to take loving action for them, even though it's far from daily. 

I have family members who died years ago. I'm not taking loving actions towards them, and they aren't taking any toward me that I'm aware of, but I still love them.  

I can get behind the idea that your actions should reflect your love, absolutely. But love as only a form of action? No, personal love is a thing. 

I mean, I don't have warm feelings about doing the laundry, but I'd say I pretty consistently have warm feelings about the people I do laundry for. OP is struggling with what it means to love someone at all, and with the fact that she doesn't seem to have much feeling attached to the words when she says them. 

I don't regard doing tedious tasks for people as proof of loving them (although we might joke about it). Lots of people will honor commitments and do what they feel is expected of them, but that doesn't automatically mean they love their family or have much of a connection with them. Not saying this is your situtation at all, just pointing out that it isn't a general proof of love. 

I didn't save the post to quote, but I think you could do well well with structured workbooks like one poster suggested, along with the more informal questioning and journaling that I suggested. In addition to examining thoughts about love as a feeling and love as an action, maybe look at a list of common cognitive distortions and start reading about the ones that strike a familiar note with you. 

I have never been in formal therapy, but I have done lots of therapeutic work, and it's been very valuable. It can take a really long time to overcome certain modes of thinking, or to even realize that you want to overcome them, but I think that one of the purposes of life is self-realization and a steady openness to growth and changing your mind. 

Medication can also be a good tool, and most regular doctors will prescribe the established antidepressants to try. 

If working makes you happier, then by all means you should be working. @regentrudehad some good starter ideas for contract work that you can start to explore. I think you were looking forward to the mission trips as well, but there may come a point at which you have to decide on a balance between those, which sound fulfilling for dh, and a more steady career, if that's what will fulfill you. But I don't think work alone is your full answer here. 

If you have any workbooks to have me try, I will do it.  I journal anyway. 

Part of this is the roles I play. The psych thought it was an interesting statement when I said that the hardest part to me about being a parent is being on stage 24/7.  I thought since I was a good teacher, I would be a good parent.  My husband was gone a ton, so I only had to be a good wife/play the part of wife when he was there.  I read tons of books about being a good wife, a good parent, the perfect homeschooler and have tried to do everything correctly. Part of being a good wife and a good parent is loving them, making sure you tell them that a ton, that you show it to them, that you set boundaries, etc. You hold them when they cry.  Listen to them.  As a homeschooler, you give them strong basics and then let them branch out for their own interest, so I made sure oldest had tons of AP classes in math and science, middle on tons of history and writing, youngest tons of private music lessons, choirs, etc.   Of course it was also hard because I had to try to decide WHICH book/info was accurate. I prayed and read my Bible as well so God could instruct me. Thankfully, I stayed away from purity culture, but I made mistakes I know which destroys me. I really, really, really tried to be a good wife and a good mom.  But I could never feel what I was supposed to feel as a mom. Not really. 

I haven't cried about mom's death, or my dad's. I have cried because I am exhausted. Because I cannot keep up with the demands people put on me. My step-dad wanted everything of mom's gone before I left. So I spent 5 days planning the funeral and then going through all of her clothes, her jewelry, her photographs, her drawers, etc. We gave several car loads of her stuff to Christian ministries. I wish I could have just sat and visited with people and planned the funeral. But my sister and I went through stuff from 8am in the morning to 8pm at night. One night I was particularly touchy when we drove back to the trailer and cried because I just didn't want to be doing that and I was beyond tired. ( Literally my August was go on mission trip, find out mom has gone to hospital at the end of the trip. Got home for an hour and packed my suitcase.. Stayed with my mom at hospital and at home for 4 days. Went home for a day and a half and she was back in the hospital so I drove back. She decided on hospice got the drain in. was there for 5 days. God hospice all set up. Mom is doing great. Went home for a day and a half and finished packing the trailer and took it to a campground near mom. We spent Sunday and had a great day. Fixed a great meal that she actually ate. She was so happy. I filmed an interview with her and step-dad about how they met.  My oldest drove in and surprised her and she jumped up with joy. She thanked my husband endlessly for the best meal she had had.  Great day. She was so happy about hospice and no longer taking any meds. She felt so great. We left and drove the two days to Colorado. Everything started falling apart and spent the third day hiking and talking to my step-brother, hospice people, etc. We drove the two days back in time to make it there with everyone else on Friday. She died on Saturday. Spent Sunday through Wednesday trying to plan the funeral ( since no body there was no funeral home to guide me, plus turmoil at their church so couldn't have it there because it was a former pastor they kicked out, but I digress). Thursday we drove home, plugged in the trailer but didn't unpack, but did laundry.  Drove back Friday in a car and picked up 2 kids at DFW and the other kid drove and stayed the weekend in the hotel.  The only time I cried was in the middle of the week going through stuff and there was still so much to do for the funeral. And yes, my husband was great. He ordered all the flowers and really helped my stepdad. The dishwasher broke, which was the end of the world for step-dad. In his cognitive state, he can't handle that he couldn't load the dishwasher like he did and run it at night. Routine is so important to him. The repair guy wasn't sure what was wrong and wanted to charge hundreds of dollars. My husband looked on YouTube, ordered a part and had it fixed in 10 minutes. Anyway, my husband also did a ton.

But I guess, it is done. But I was just so tired of going through stuff and we barely finished. When we came back before the funeral, I dumped the pile of stuff I kept on our playroom floor and we went on our trip after the funeral. I came back and have been slowly going through the pile.  Last night I read all the letters I wrote home during college that mom kept. Very interesting.  My mom and I used to be close. She would say we still were at the end. I say I LOVE you all the time and maybe I felt it then. I don't know. A lot of things I wrote in those letters I really don't remember.

I cry when I  have failed people or caused harm. I really cry when I get overwhelmed and cannot fulfill my obligations to people or if demands are coming way too fast. I like to know exactly what is expected and have a benchmark to know I have done it well.  But cry about people...not so much. I posted all the stuff about mom...I miss you. I love you.  I fulfilled the role of dutiful daughter. I know all the right words to say for the roles I fulfill, but I don't feel anything. But I write encouraging notes to my kids. Call to say I love them. Send care packages. Listen to their troubles because that is what a good mom does. Otherwise I would be a very very bad person. 

[regentrude]

@TexasProud you said you journal. I know that's supposed to be therapeutic and helpful but, for me personally,  I found journaling to be detrimental to mental health.  The constant introspection and sifting through my inner landscape made me feel more depressed. I had to stop all journaling and navelgazing completely before I could be well. Just wanted to throw this out there.

[Murphy101]

46 minutes ago, regentrude said:

@TexasProud you said you journal. I know that's supposed to be therapeutic and helpful but, for me personally,  I found journaling to be detrimental to mental health.  The constant introspection and sifting through my inner landscape made me feel more depressed. I had to stop all journaling and navelgazing completely before I could be well. Just wanted to throw this out there.

Amen. Me too. I’ve always hated it bc there’s no positive focus to it.

*Maybe* I could see keeping a gratitude journal. We don’t do that but we do take time every night to say out loud the best thing about our day.

[TexasProud]

55 minutes ago, regentrude said:

@TexasProud you said you journal. I know that's supposed to be therapeutic and helpful but, for me personally,  I found journaling to be detrimental to mental health.  The constant introspection and sifting through my inner landscape made me feel more depressed. I had to stop all journaling and navelgazing completely before I could be well. Just wanted to throw this out there.

 

2 minutes ago, Murphy101 said:

Amen. Me too. I’ve always hated it bc there’s no positive focus to it.

*Maybe* I could see keeping a gratitude journal. We don’t do that but we do take time every night to say out loud the best thing about our day.

Well, but all the writing programs talk about morning pages or spending time writing out things.  And many of the things I write, I end up taking and making blog posts or articles for online publications.  Writing is also how I process.  I don't know how I feel about something until I write, write, write.  Then I get to the deeper idea. Same thing would work with talking. But most people don't want to listen to someone ramble for hours

[Rosie_0801]

If you want a workbook, Faith Harper's boundaries workbook. Really.
I'll work through it with you if you think that would be tolerably useful.

 

I don't know what you think very, very bad people are, but to me, very, very bad people are people who deliberately sabotage other people. If you're not deliberately sabotaging your nearest and dearest, well, I don't think you can be that bad.

[TexasProud]

2 hours ago, Rosie_0801 said:

If you want a workbook, Faith Harper's boundaries workbook. Really.
I'll work through it with you if you think that would be tolerably useful.

 

I don't know what you think very, very bad people are, but to me, very, very bad people are people who deliberately sabotage other people. If you're not deliberately sabotaging your nearest and dearest, well, I don't think you can be that bad.

Yeah would have to be a different book. The swear word in the title won't work for me.

[regentrude]

3 hours ago, TexasProud said:

 

Well, but all the writing programs talk about morning pages or spending time writing out things.  And many of the things I write, I end up taking and making blog posts or articles for online publications.  Writing is also how I process.  I don't know how I feel about something until I write, write, write.  Then I get to the deeper idea. Same thing would work with talking. But most people don't want to listen to someone ramble for hours

As  *writer*, you obviously need to write frequently and regularly. However,  journaling about your own thoughts, feelings, and psychological issues may still not be helpful.

I write almost daily, but I stay far away from the soul searching/introspection/ pondering the meaning of life. The constant questioning was detrimental to my mental health. I feel much better since I have stopped asking what for and what stays after I die, and just focusing on joy instead.

BTW, I have done some of my best work as a writer since I burned my journals and stopped journaling about my interiority.

Edited September 27, 2022 by regentrude

[TexasProud]

10 minutes ago, regentrude said:

As  *writer*, you obviously need to write frequently and regularly. However,  journaling about your own thoughts, feelings, and psychological issues may still not be helpful.

I write almost daily, but I stay far away from the soul searching/introspection/ pondering the meaning of life. The constant questioning was detrimental to my mental health. I feel much better since I have stopped asking what for and what stays after I die, and just focusing on joy instead.

BTW, I have done some of my best work as a writer since I burned my journals and stopped journaling about my interiority.

Yes, but most of my poems and writings are about the meaning of life, particularly through a Christian lens.... How we deal with the problems in life.

[lauraw4321]

@TexasProud I want to address one small aspect of your story and suffering, and that's your mom's hospice experience. You appear to be blaming yourself for your mom's rapid decline (comparing her eating a good meal, jumping at seeing family) to her death shortly thereafter. That pattern is extremely common in people who are dying. When they accept that the end is near, they often rally, eat well, converse, and genuinely seem to be doing better. It's very common for family members to be overjoyed at the improvement, and take a break from their loved one, only to have the loved one pass away mere hours later. 

Disease caused your mother to die - not you. Please try to hear this and accept that you loved her the way you should and you cannot stop death. 

[regentrude]

42 minutes ago, TexasProud said:

Yes, but most of my poems and writings are about the meaning of life, particularly through a Christian lens.... How we deal with the problems in life.

But you seem to really struggle with that question (as indicated in several of your posts),  so perhaps it might be a good idea to stop ruminating on it and write about something else. 

[Hannah]

6 minutes ago, lauraw4321 said:

 When they accept that the end is near, they often rally, eat well, converse, and genuinely seem to be doing better. It's very common for family members to be overjoyed at the improvement, and take a break from their loved one, only to have the loved one pass away mere hours later. 

My mom passed away in hospital shortly after we all went home and I felt very guilty that we weren't there by her side when she went.  The ICU nurse told me that she saw it very often that the patient died just after the family left and she believed that the patient did have a small measure of control about when they were going to let go - and often chose to do it when they were completely alone.

[TexasProud]

1 hour ago, lauraw4321 said:

@TexasProud I want to address one small aspect of your story and suffering, and that's your mom's hospice experience. You appear to be blaming yourself for your mom's rapid decline (comparing her eating a good meal, jumping at seeing family) to her death shortly thereafter. That pattern is extremely common in people who are dying. When they accept that the end is near, they often rally, eat well, converse, and genuinely seem to be doing better. It's very common for family members to be overjoyed at the improvement, and take a break from their loved one, only to have the loved one pass away mere hours later. 

Disease caused your mother to die - not you. Please try to hear this and accept that you loved her the way you should and you cannot stop death. 

Except when I talked to her on the phone after leaving her absolutely FINE when I left.  After a few days I called her, and mom was saying how we had made a horrible mistake with hospice and that she was going to be dead in two days at this rate.  When I made it back, she had not taken ANY of her meds since I had been gone so her heartburn was so bad even water hurt so bad to swallow. The nurse and I had SPECIFICALLY talked about her meds...the nurse even adjusted her blood pressure meds while I was gone, but I guess didn't care that she hadn't taken any of her meds...  Made no sense at all. Mom was so, so grateful when I got there.  Yeah, maybe she would have died anyway, but she wouldn't have been in so much pain, which I thought was the whole reason why we had hospice was so that she could die comfortably.  So yeah, I blame myself for her painful death.

I left at peace if she was to die when I was gone, but that was if she died suddenly or again, a peaceful, contented death. Not one in agony. Her breathing was awful. The other two people I have been with when they died were not even on hospice and their deaths were better than my mom's.

Edited September 27, 2022 by TexasProud
for clarity

[TexasProud]

16 hours ago, regentrude said:

But you seem to really struggle with that question (as indicated in several of your posts),  so perhaps it might be a good idea to stop ruminating on it and write about something else. 

Yeah, I have no desire to write about anything else.  This is the whole reason why I write. If I don't write about that, then I should probably just go back to being a teacher or whatever on the mission field.  Which maybe you are correct. Maybe I should give up writing.
 

 

 

Edited September 28, 2022 by TexasProud

[katilac]

9 hours ago, Murphy101 said:

🤷‍♀️ I disagree. For me it’s like that scene in Fiddler in the Roof where he is asking his wife “… but do you love me?!” And she’s looking at him like he is an annoying idiot and singing back, “… what?! Have I not been here all this time cleaning your laundry?!”

Her answer is, yes, she loves him.

The song doesn't stop there. He persists in asking, she persists in saying she fulfills her duties, and of course it ends with them both acknowledging that loving each other may not change a thing in their life (in the practical sense) but that it sure is nice to know, and acknowledge, that they do love each other. 

That's not a great example for me regardless, because of course she's been doing his laundry and sharing his bed, what the heck else was she going to do? And of course it was an arranged marriage, and one of the main themes of the play is that several of his daughters reject the idea of arranged marriage and 'learning to love each other' in order to marry someone they have personal feelings of love for. 

Matchmaker, Matchmaker explicitly acknowledges that getting stuck with a bad match is just as likely as a good match that results in 'learning to love each other.' The wives who are in loveless marriages do just as much laundry. 

9 hours ago, Murphy101 said:

 

Well if you’ve never struggled to be your best to someone you love because the way they made you feel wasn’t very sweet and cozy - that’s genuinely great for you.

But for all the moms out there who genuinely love their kids even though postpartum depression makes them feel like they don’t, or who struggle to balance their kids or spouse needs with their own desires but still love them, or have felt betrayed and broken over grown kids who don’t love them back - loving kids isn’t all hallmark movie inspiring.  The feelings for kids and loved ones in general are fleeting in the sense that we may always love them, but we sure don’t always like them.

 <snip>

Again. Love is action. Done personally, not begrudgingly, but whole-heartedly. 

Struggling to be your best to someone does not equate to love being fleeting. 

The feelings for kids and loved ones in general are fleeting in the sense that we may always love them, but we sure don’t always like them.

That's really bringing in a new definition. I don't at all see how not always liking the way a loved one acts translates into love being fleeting. It just means that love can be difficult and painful, which of course it can. If love wasn't strong and enduring and persistent, we wouldn't feel that level of hurt. 

[lauraw4321]

4 hours ago, TexasProud said:

Except when I talked to her on the phone after leaving her absolutely FINE when I left.  After a few days I called her, and mom was saying how we had made a horrible mistake with hospice and that she was going to be dead in two days at this rate.  When I made it back, she had not taken ANY of her meds since I had been gone so her heartburn was so bad even water hurt so bad to swallow. The nurse and I had SPECIFICALLY talked about her meds...the nurse even adjusted her blood pressure meds while I was gone, but I guess didn't care that she hadn't taken any of her meds...  Made no sense at all. Mom was so, so grateful when I got there.  Yeah, maybe she would have died anyway, but she wouldn't have been in so much pain, which I thought was the whole reason why we had hospice was so that she could die comfortably.  So yeah, I blame myself for her painful death.

I left at peace if she was to die when I was gone, but that was if she died suddenly or again, a peaceful, contented death. Not one in agony. Her breathing was awful. The other two people I have been with when they died were not even on hospice and their deaths were better than my mom's.

So this does sound like a failure of Hospice, if it actually happened exactly as you describe. Which again, is not your fault. But have you considered that your mother may have refused to take her medicines? Or that she may have taken them and didn’t recall? 
 

When my grandfather passed with Hospice, they weren’t there 24/7. It was up to the family to give (or not give) maintenance medication. Did she have 24/7 help? Was she in a skilled nursing facility?

I am sorry for this trauma. You didn’t cause her pain. 

[Rosie_0801]

6 hours ago, TexasProud said:

Yeah would have to be a different book. The swear word in the title won't work for me.

It doesn't please me either...

 

But my daughter's health was more important than an objectionable word.

 

You seem determined to treat yourself abominably and we can't help you feel healthy about that. Self sabotage just isn't a healthy thing.

[Murphy101]

2 hours ago, katilac said:

The song doesn't stop there. He persists in asking, she persists in saying she fulfills her duties, and of course it ends with them both acknowledging that loving each other may not change a thing in their life (in the practical sense) but that it sure is nice to know, and acknowledge, that they do love each other. 

That's not a great example for me regardless, because of course she's been doing his laundry and sharing his bed, what the heck else was she going to do? And of course it was an arranged marriage, and one of the main themes of the play is that several of his daughters reject the idea of arranged marriage and 'learning to love each other' in order to marry someone they have personal feelings of love for. 

Matchmaker, Matchmaker explicitly acknowledges that getting stuck with a bad match is just as likely as a good match that results in 'learning to love each other.' The wives who are in loveless marriages do just as much laundry. 

Struggling to be your best to someone does not equate to love being fleeting. 

The feelings for kids and loved ones in general are fleeting in the sense that we may always love them, but we sure don’t always like them.

That's really bringing in a new definition. I don't at all see how not always liking the way a loved one acts translates into love being fleeting. It just means that love can be difficult and painful, which of course it can. If love wasn't strong and enduring and persistent, we wouldn't feel that level of hurt. 

Okay. It seems my saying what I did struck some kind of nerve for you.  We can disagree.  I didn’t interpret Fiddler same as you.  🤷‍♀️ We were singing Tradition! And so the reference was at hand when I posted.

Sometimes we don’t like how a loved one acts.  But also sometimes those acts add up to not liking who that person has become.  Is this not a common refrain of divorce? They aren’t the same person anymore?  Is this not the lament in relationships of all kinds at times? That so and so has changed (or didn’t change) and so feelings towards them have changed as well? And then you start to hear phrases like “I love them but I’m not in love with the them anymore”.  So fat lot of good that love was when they didn’t “feel in love” anymore.  

[TexasProud]

58 minutes ago, lauraw4321 said:

So this does sound like a failure of Hospice, if it actually happened exactly as you describe. Which again, is not your fault. But have you considered that your mother may have refused to take her medicines? Or that she may have taken them and didn’t recall? 
 

When my grandfather passed with Hospice, they weren’t there 24/7. It was up to the family to give (or not give) maintenance medication. Did she have 24/7 help? Was she in a skilled nursing facility?

I am sorry for this trauma. You didn’t cause her pain. 

She did not refuse.  She forgot to take it, which I talked to the hospice nurse and she was aware and said she would check. When I left, she was walking ( with a walker) in great spirits. I was there all day Sunday. As I mentioned my stepdad was not cognitively capable.  In fact, mom gave him his meds. I had talked to a care agency to come 2 days a week for 4 hours to cook meals, double check that she was taking meds, etc. It was starting on that Thursday.  But mom was totally able to dress herself, shower herself, etc. The social worker came out and agreed they were fine, though suggested they get a lower bed.  My stepbrother was getting there late on Tuesday.  Mom and step-dad had been living on their own fine.

What happened was when hospice drained her ascities they drained too much fluid, which caused her to get dehydrated and also tanked her blood pressure, so by Tuesday she started getting confused.  Also, on Wednesday, her bed was soaked from her drain leaking.  When I talked to her that day she was paranoid.  My step brother called the on call nurse who basically said, well you can just mop it up or go to the ER, nothing else to do...  I got involved at that point. Called the administrator.  My step brother went to ER and the on call nurse was like, why were you doing that I was coming. ( She only said that because I called the administrator.)  Thursday the caregivers came and again her bed was soaked and they were appalled. Also, forgot to add that mom became unable to walk, but thought she could and began to get out of bed and fall. To show the amount of confusion, they called the fire department to get her off the floor instead of going to the next room where my step brother was.  After that, the poor guy didn't sleep.  Anyway, caregivers were appalled that hospice hadn't brought out diapers or any kind of supplies or anything so the owner of the caregiver place brought a stash she had. Changed everything with step brother's help. Oh, and yeah, I was calling every day so that by the time they came Thursday, I had them set up for 24/7 care. The owner was wonderful. The week before it was 2 days a week 4 hours. then Tuesday, I said let's do 4 hours every day.  Then Wednesday it was 8 hours every day. By Thursday, I said 24/7 and she was awesome. She got nearly all of the hours staffed for me.  But I got there Friday and discovered that mom's pillbox was completely full and the only meds she had taken were when I was there Sunday.  The situation was so chaotic, I didn't blame the caregivers as they were barely getting started.  My complete fault not to check with my stepbrother to see if mom was taking her meds.  So yeah, again TOTALLY my fault. But at the same time, I asked the hospice nurse and she said she would make sure. But again, when I left, mom was in good spirits and cognitively fine.  When I returned on Friday she said this was hell and she wanted to die. She died on Saturday.

Edited September 27, 2022 by TexasProud

[regentrude]

13 minutes ago, Murphy101 said:

Sometimes we don’t like how a loved one acts.  But also sometimes those acts add up to not liking who that person has become.  Is this not a common refrain of divorce? They aren’t the same person anymore?  Is this not the lament in relationships of all kinds at times? That so and so has changed (or didn’t change) and so feelings towards them have changed as well? And then you start to hear phrases like “I love them but I’m not in love with the them anymore”.  So fat lot of good that love was when they didn’t “feel in love” anymore.  

To play devil's advocate: so what exactly is wrong with deciding one does not like who the person has become and thus one does not wish to continue the relationship further?

The institution of marriage has first and foremost evolved as an economic contract: wife provides sex, housework, and children; in exchange husband provides roof over her head and food to eat. For centuries, that was the basis for the model, and patriarchal religions have given it religious underpinnings to preserve the status. 

Since we can now break that model since we finally have realized that women can work and are no longer dependent on a husband to survive, and we have higher expectations for a partnership, why should on remain in a union where one has no longer any warm feelings towards the other person? Where one does not even like  the other person?  I am not talking about swooning infatuation - I am taking about not enjoying being with that partner. Life is too short to live with someone whom one doesn't like.

ETA: To clarify: that does not mean leaving a spouse when things get difficult. There can still be warm thoughts and cherished memories and feelings of love under horrible circumstances, not just dudy and responsibility.
My mother nursed my father through long illness after his stroke. He slowly withered away, lost more and more function, spent the last six months with a feeding tube and diapers, confined to bed, the last few months non-verbal. She surely liked none of that situation, but she felt love for him because of the person she could sense in there, and not just duty. 

Edited September 27, 2022 by regentrude

[Junie]

(((TexasProud)))

I think that you are being much, much too hard on yourself.

You are not to blame for your mother's death.  Is anyone else blaming you, or are you the only one blaming you?

Also, you talked upthread about doing things the "right" way.  For most things in life, including being a good wife and a good mother, there is no "right" way.

God doesn't expect us to be perfect.  It's unfair to expect yourself to live up to a standard that is unachievable.

Edited September 27, 2022 by Junie
punctuation

[TexasProud]

1 minute ago, regentrude said:

To play devil's advocate: so what exactly is wrong with deciding one does not like who the person has become and thus one does not wish to continue the relationship further?

The institution of marriage has first and foremost evolved as an economic contract: wife provides sex, housework, and children; in exchange husband provides roof over her head and food to eat. For centuries, that was the basis for the model, and patriarchal religions have given it religious underpinnings to preserve the status. 

Since we can now break that model since we finally have realized that women can work and are no longer dependent on a husband to survive, and we have higher expectations for a partnership, why should on remain in a union where one has no longer any warm feelings towards the other person? Where one does not even like  the other person? 

I am still in love with my husband. He is wonderful. But also, I made a covenant. Feelings can be so incredibly fleeting. Commitment means something. It means that HE stands by me when I am depressed, not leaving me because it would be easier and more convenient and more fun on his own.  It means that I support him when he goes through his crap.  It means we both make mistakes, ask forgiveness and give each other grace. It means having a best friend who is in your corner.  And when you make it 32 years... well, we have gotten to a sweet place where we can laugh at each other's failings.  We know what the other one means by a look. We could finish each other's sentences.  But when I was in my dark place 8-10 years ago, when I thought it was all his fault when a lot of it was my not being honest and speaking up, I would have left and run to what?  Most 2nd marriages don't fare better.  

Now there are exceptions.  I do not blame my mom for leaving my dad. She tried for 25 years. He was too hard to live with.  But she stayed married to my step dad for 31 years and they were still so much in love when she died, despite his having had a serious debilitating stroke.

[lauraw4321]

22 minutes ago, TexasProud said:

She did not refuse.  She forgot to take it, which I talked to the hospice nurse and she was aware and said she would check. When I left, she was walking ( with a walker) in great spirits. I was there all day Sunday. As I mentioned my stepdad was not cognitively capable.  In fact, mom gave him his meds. I had talked to a care agency to come 2 days a week for 4 hours to cook meals, double check that she was taking meds, etc. It was starting on that Thursday.  But mom was totally able to dress herself, shower herself, etc. The social worker came out and agreed they were fine, though suggested they get a lower bed.  My stepbrother was getting there late on Tuesday.  Mom and step-dad had been living on their own fine.

What happened was when hospice drained her ascities they drained too much fluid, which caused her to get dehydrated and also tanked her blood pressure, so by Tuesday she started getting confused.  Also, on Wednesday, her bed was soaked from her drain leaking.  When I talked to her that day she was paranoid.  My step brother called the on call nurse who basically said, well you can just mop it up or go to the ER, nothing else to do...  I got involved at that point. Called the administrator.  My step brother went to ER and the on call nurse was like, why were you doing that I was coming. ( She only said that because I called the administrator.)  Thursday the caregivers came and again her bed was soaked and they were appalled. Also, forgot to add that mom became unable to walk, but thought she could and began to get out of bed and fall. To show the amount of confusion, they called the fire department to get her off the floor instead of going to the next room where my step brother was.  After that, the poor guy didn't sleep.  Anyway, caregivers were appalled that hospice hadn't brought out diapers or any kind of supplies or anything so the owner of the caregiver place brought a stash she had. Changed everything with step brother's help. Oh, and yeah, I was calling every day so that by the time they came Thursday, I had them set up for 24/7 care. The owner was wonderful. The week before it was 2 days a week 4 hours. then Tuesday, I said let's do 4 hours every day.  Then Wednesday it was 8 hours every day. By Thursday, I said 24/7 and she was awesome. She got nearly all of the hours staffed for me.  But I got there Friday and discovered that mom's pillbox was completely full and the only meds she had taken were when I was there Sunday.  The situation was so chaotic, I didn't blame the caregivers as they were barely getting started.  My complete fault not to check with my stepbrother to see if mom was taking her meds.  So yeah, again TOTALLY my fault. But at the same time, I asked the hospice nurse and she said she would make sure. But again, when I left, mom was in good spirits and cognitively fine.  When I returned on Friday she said this was hell and she wanted to die. She died on Saturday.

You did everything you could. You made reasonable decisions with the information you had. It’s reasonable to think nurses or brother would make sure she took meds. 
 

You are not God. You cannot be perfect. You cannot do everything right. You cannot keep someone with a terminal illness from dying. We all have far less control than we’d like to think. 
 

You are holding yourself to inhuman standards. You’re holding yourself to perfection and you know only one person ever attained that. Please, give yourself grace. 

[TexasProud]

1 minute ago, lauraw4321 said:

 

You are not God. You cannot be perfect. You cannot do everything right. You cannot keep someone with a terminal illness from dying. We all have far less control than we’d like to think. 
 

 

Again, I left and even told my husband after our wonderful day on Sunday, I was fine if she died. We said everything we had to say.  She had such a great day.  I know that I could not stop her from dying. With hospice I knew it was coming. What I am really angry about is the way she died and if I had been there, she at least would have died more comfortably. And man, if I had never called hospice, she could have gotten drained in a hospital where they gave her fluids and kept her even keeled. ( Had done it twice but this was supposedly better than going to the hospital all the time. Bull. ) Again, because she hadn't taken her Nexium in 5 days her reflux was so bad, it hurt her to drink water. That will haunt me for a long time. Even my husband says we should never have gone. But both he and my aunt thought I needed to rest and since she was doing so well, I could rest for awhile and then be ready for the long haul.  My aunt was horrified at hospice and said NONE of her experience has been like ours was. ( She also arrived on that Friday.) 

[Frances]

5 hours ago, TexasProud said:

Except when I talked to her on the phone after leaving her absolutely FINE when I left.  After a few days I called her, and mom was saying how we had made a horrible mistake with hospice and that she was going to be dead in two days at this rate.  When I made it back, she had not taken ANY of her meds since I had been gone so her heartburn was so bad even water hurt so bad to swallow. The nurse and I had SPECIFICALLY talked about her meds...the nurse even adjusted her blood pressure meds while I was gone, but I guess didn't care that she hadn't taken any of her meds...  Made no sense at all. Mom was so, so grateful when I got there.  Yeah, maybe she would have died anyway, but she wouldn't have been in so much pain, which I thought was the whole reason why we had hospice was so that she could die comfortably.  So yeah, I blame myself for her painful death.

I left at peace if she was to die when I was gone, but that was if she died suddenly or again, a peaceful, contented death. Not one in agony. Her breathing was awful. The other two people I have been with when they died were not even on hospice and their deaths were better than my mom's.

Gently, you cannot know for sure that things would have been any different if you never went in your trip and continuing to beat yourself up over it serves no purpose. My dad was only on hospice for ten days, the last two just sleeping. And his breathing was terrible, to the point I found it difficult to sleep at all. But I still think we and hospice did everything possible to make it as good as we could for him. Dying is rarely peaceful and easy.

I hope you can let go of the very high and exacting expectations you seem to have for yourself and your seemingly great guilt about numerous past events. If I didn’t know better, I would definitely assume you had been raised Catholic. My college advisor could spot a born and raised Catholic a mile away due to all of the guilt they carried around. It’s not healthy for you or those around you and serves no useful purpose.

If you don’t want to do something and are only doing it out of obligation then maybe start by just saying “no” sometimes. 

[TexasProud]

1 minute ago, Frances said:

 

If you don’t want to do something and are only doing it out of obligation then maybe start by just saying “no” sometimes. 

I have said no to LOTS of things. But deserting my children would not have been a good thing to do, though I fantasized many times about dying my hair, cutting it and driving to a bus station and disappearing so many times.  But I needed to do my duty and love them the best I could because they didn't deserve that. 

[LaughingCat]

You are looking back with your 20/20 hindsight and beating yourself up when you have told us at the time you made it everyone agreed that you were making a good decision with the information you had at that time.  

 It is a part of beating yourself up to imagine that only the best possible case would have happened as the result of your imagined different decision -- when real life is that no matter how perfect a choice you make, things go wrong anyway.   There will always be a choice you made that you can beat yourself up over, no matter how perfectly you choose.

[itsheresomewhere]

Hospice can not make a patient take meds.  They can offer but if the patient says no.  And there is no way to know that if you had been there and had taken your mom to the hospital, she would have been better than hospice.  I can tell you that extremely well.  My dad decided to not do hospice and take the other route. He died in pain, on ecmo alone in the ICU.  
 

I think you might need to take time to realize it is not your fault.  But I have noticed a pattern, you keep saying you write/journal from a Christian perspective.  Perhaps, you have a idea of what that is that needs to be change.  You need to find the middle peace of where you can find happiness/yourself as a person who is a Christian and not the idea you have that is making things a bit unrealistic for you to live.

Edited September 28, 2022 by itsheresomewhere

[TexasProud]

4 minutes ago, itsheresomewhere said:

Hospice can not make a patient take meds.  They can offer but if the patient says no.  And there is no way to know that if you had been there and had taken your mom to the hospital, she would have been better than hospice.  I can tell you that extremely well.  My dad decided to not do hospice and take the other route. He died in pain, on ecmo alone in the ICU.  
 

I think you might need to take time to realize it is not your fault.  But I have noticed a pattern, you keep saying you write/journal from a Christian perspective.  Perhaps, you have a idea of what that is that needs to be change.  You need to find the middle peace of where you can find happiness/yourself as a person who is a Christian and not the idea you have you that is making things a bit unrealistic for you to live.

And that is fine, if they had been like home health and said that up front. No problem. But THE NURSE SAID SHE WOULD CHECK TO MAKE SURE MOM TOOK HER MEDS.  So many promises were made when hospice made their presentation. My husband was on the phone and was also really, really impressed but the reality wasn't what they promised or described and that is my issue. Just tell me up front the reality and I can make the right plan.
 

Not sure you said, you have an idea of what needs to change.   No, I don't other than I need to be peaceful.  Told that to my spiritual director today.  It was an intake visit.    But the part I bolded didn't quite make sense to me...like you were talking in code that I was supposed to get.

[Murphy101]

1 hour ago, regentrude said:

To play devil's advocate: so what exactly is wrong with deciding one does not like who the person has become and thus one does not wish to continue the relationship further?

To further devil’s advocate… what exactly is wrong with having that attitude towards anyone we once loved when we no longer “feel warmth” for them?  Parents? Children? Siblings? Best friend since elementary school? God?

Edited September 28, 2022 by Murphy101

[itsheresomewhere]

4 minutes ago, TexasProud said:

And that is fine, if they had been like home health and said that up front. No problem. But THE NURSE SAID SHE WOULD CHECK TO MAKE SURE MOM TOOK HER MEDS.  So many promises were made when hospice made their presentation. My husband was on the phone and was also really, really impressed but the reality wasn't what they promised or described and that is my issue. Just tell me up front the reality and I can make the right plan.
 

Not sure you said, you have an idea of what needs to change.   No, I don't other than I need to be peaceful.  Told that to my spiritual director today.  It was an intake visit.    But the part I bolded didn't quite make sense to me...like you were talking in code that I was supposed to get.

Checking and making a person take them are two different things.  
 

I think you have an idea of a Christian life you need to have. It doesn’t sound very healthy or realistic.  You need to find out what you want and make it a healthy and realistic option.  You feel like you are wearing a mask sometimes.  You won’t find peace until you find a healthy and realistic way to have this.  You have been full throttle too long and now are struggling.  

[Rosie_0801]

15 minutes ago, TexasProud said:

Not sure you said, you have an idea of what needs to change.   No, I don't other than I need to be peaceful.  Told that to my spiritual director today.  It was an intake visit.    But the part I bolded didn't quite make sense to me...like you were talking in code that I was supposed to get.

I think she means the same thing I mean when I talk about trying to transcend your humanity.

 

It is literally impossible to feel peaceful and guilty at the same time.

You have two choices.
1. Make peace with your limitations.
2. Or continue not making peace with your limitations.

There is no middle ground where you get to sabotage yourself and feel healthy about it.

Also, anger and guilt don't have to go together. They certainly like to play together when our boundaries are messed up, though.

We can choose to be good humans, but we can't choose to be better than human. It's just not an available option.

[Murphy101]

On 9/26/2022 at 5:00 PM, Rosie_0801 said:

It is really important to stock take your beliefs and ensure what you believe is really true. People believe all sorts of things based on feelings and imagination, rather actually realities.

You carry guilt for things that really aren't your fault.

This.

Texas sounds like she is suffering from a chronic bad case of scrupulosity to me.

[TexasProud]

15 minutes ago, itsheresomewhere said:

Checking and making a person take them are two different things.  
 

I think you have an idea of a Christian life you need to have. It doesn’t sound very healthy or realistic.  You need to find out what you want and make it a healthy and realistic option.  You feel like you are wearing a mask sometimes.  You won’t find peace until you find a healthy and realistic way to have this.  You have been full throttle too long and now are struggling.  

Mom had no block to taking her meds. I never ever had trouble getting her to take them.  All you had to do was look at the pill box, "Oh mom, take your morning meds."  "Oh yeah, I  started to after breakfast.. What is the matter with me!"

On the second part, yeah, you are right. Hoping the spiritual director can help me with that.

[TexasProud]

3 minutes ago, Rosie_0801 said:

 

We can choose to be good humans, but we can't choose to be better than human. It's just not an available option.

But God should guide you to making the right decisions if you are truly in the vine with him.

[Rosie_0801]

3 minutes ago, TexasProud said:

But God should guide you to making the right decisions if you are truly in the vine with him.

Sometimes there are no right decisions.

Presumably God also wants us to learn lessons.  
The lesson a terminally ill person needs to learn isn't how to live, but how to die.
The lessons you need to learn, as a person who isn't done with life yet, are about boundaries, responsibility and suffering.

[Rosie_0801]

Look, neither of us can read God's mind, so let's assume His thoughts are trying to push us towards health, because a God who wants to push us towards unhealthiness isn't a good role model.

[itsheresomewhere]

3 minutes ago, TexasProud said:

Mom had no block to taking her meds. I never ever had trouble getting her to take them.  All you had to do was look at the pill box, "Oh mom, take your morning meds."  "Oh yeah, I  started to after breakfast.. What is the matter with me!"

On the second part, yeah, you are right. Hoping the spiritual director can help me with that.

Sometimes our parents do it for us as they don’t want to be the disappointment they think they will be if they say no.  It happens.  Perhaps, maybe that is what your mom might have done.  It happens.  A adult kid leaves the room and the parent then tells us they don’t want to do what they just said. 
 

I find personally a spiritual director alone is not enough.  Add a therapist to the mix who is not part of the church.  You might find the combo works great as we can have some stuff buried so deep that we don’t see how it is affecting life in so many ways. 

[TexasProud]

@Rosie_0801 I can't like your posts, but the last two are very, very true.

[TexasProud]

Just now, itsheresomewhere said:

 

I find personally a spiritual director alone is not enough.  Add a therapist to the mix who is not part of the church.  You might find the combo works great as we can have some stuff buried so deep that we don’t see how it is affecting life in so many ways. 

I have sent out a query to one.  We shall see. May be overbooked. May be awful like my others. But we shall see.

[itsheresomewhere]

Just now, TexasProud said:

I have sent out a query to one.  We shall see. May be overbooked. May be awful like my others. But we shall see.

Do you have a local Facebook group? You can look for recommendations from other who have used them. And you can post a question anonymously.  

 

[Frances]

8 minutes ago, TexasProud said:

But God should guide you to making the right decisions if you are truly in the vine with him.

I just don’t think this is how it works at all as much you might want to believe it. Just look at all of the terrible things religious people have done throughout history. I’m sure most of them thought they were being guided by God to make the right decisions.

Life happens, the good, the bad, the ugly, the messy, the wonderful. You can’t control it or make perfect decisions all of the time. All you can do is try your best and let go of all of the guilt. It’s a waste of precious time and energy to do otherwise.

[TexasProud]

1 minute ago, itsheresomewhere said:

Do you have a local Facebook group? You can look for recommendations from other who have used them. And you can post a question anonymously.  

 

LOL, the only thing that group is good for is complaining about the water, the roads, people shooting tannerite, etc. I sincerely doubt any of the posters on there go to therapy. The way they talk to each other is horrible.

[TexasProud]

2 minutes ago, Frances said:

I just don’t think this is how it works at all as much you might want to believe it. Just look at all of the terrible things religious people have done throughout history. I’m sure most of them thought they were being guided by God to make the right decisions.

Life happens, the good, the bad, the ugly, the messy, the wonderful. You can’t control it or make perfect decisions all of the time. All you can do is try your best and let go of all of the guilt. It’s a waste of precious time and energy to do otherwise.

Again, if God is not good and not in control, then I have no reason to continue living. 

[itsheresomewhere]

2 minutes ago, TexasProud said:

LOL, the only thing that group is good for is complaining about the water, the roads, people shooting tannerite, etc. I sincerely doubt any of the posters on there go to therapy. The way they talk to each other is horrible.

Look for a moms group somewhat near you on there.  They are very open about this and will be brutally honest how they felt about a therapist.  

Edited September 28, 2022 by itsheresomewhere