Overuse of “Narcissist”

[heartlikealion]

11 minutes ago, KrissiK said:

The abuser was the child. My son was the abuser. And that’s another thing that made it so hard . A child in that position is beyond most people’s comprehension. Nobody believed us. At all. Until finally someone else lived it.

Oh gosh sorry I had no idea. 

[Katy]

18 minutes ago, KrissiK said:

The abuser was the child. My son was the abuser. And that’s another thing that made it so hard . A child in that position is beyond most people’s comprehension. Nobody believed us. At all. Until finally someone else lived it.

FWIW I believe you. We had a child in foster care that was like this. Her father said the child was the abuser. I’m still not sure the mother wasn’t abusive too, but I’m certain that child physically, sexually and emotionally abused her siblings. She was 7. She also never slept. 

[gardenmom5]

4 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

Whether they detest other peoples boundaries or not is irrelevant.  That is what a boundary is…..I get to set it for myself and it does not require permission from anyone.  
 

For kids raised up in toxic soup I KNOW how difficult it is to figure it out and learn how to set boundaries.  And sometimes the pushback can be so bad that cutting off is required. But it can be done.  Sometimes such victims marry someone who helps them out of that sort of trap…sounds like your Dh did that for you.  

If you've never been allowed to have boundaries because the NPD in your life from infancy doesn't allow boundaries - it IS relevant.  I had to learn boundaries existed - and that I had a right to have boundaries in how other people treated me. even basic boundaries most people learn as children and take for granted.  They were something which I never had supposed.  It was a completely new concept for me.  I had a lot to learn to play catch-up.

AND - when you start implementing boundaries with a NPD - you'd better be emotionally/mentally and even verbally prepared for the pushback that is going to come flying at you because you no longer give them full power over your life.

Dh was helpful - but I started imposing boundaries before I met him.  

[Scarlett]

1 hour ago, gardenmom5 said:

If you've never been allowed to have boundaries because the NPD in your life from infancy doesn't allow boundaries - it IS relevant.  I had to learn boundaries existed - and that I had a right to have boundaries in how other people treated me. even basic boundaries most people learn as children and take for granted.  They were something which I never had supposed.  It was a completely new concept for me.  I had a lot to learn to play catch-up.

AND - when you start implementing boundaries with a NPD - you'd better be emotionally/mentally and even verbally prepared for the pushback that is going to come flying at you because you no longer give them full power over your life.

Dh was helpful - but I started imposing boundaries before I met him.  

You just made my point. You figured out young ( age 13) that something was off, you learned about boundaries, and you learned to enforce them which ultimately got you cut off. Her detesting your boundaries is irrelevant to whether or not you have boundaries. 
Not saying it is easy.  But ultimately it is what we all have to do

[Melissa Louise]

If you don't call ppl with depression etc 'Cluster A's', don't call people with different diagnoses under the umbrella of Cluster B, 'Cluster B's'.

It's gross, and dehumanizes plenty of ppl who aren't narcissists. 

 

 

[sweet2ndchance]

1 hour ago, gardenmom5 said:

If you've never been allowed to have boundaries because the NPD in your life from infancy doesn't allow boundaries - it IS relevant.  I had to learn boundaries existed - and that I had a right to have boundaries in how other people treated me. even basic boundaries most people learn as children and take for granted.  They were something which I never had supposed.  It was a completely new concept for me.  I had a lot to learn to play catch-up.

AND - when you start implementing boundaries with a NPD - you'd better be emotionally/mentally and even verbally prepared for the pushback that is going to come flying at you because you no longer give them full power over your life.

Dh was helpful - but I started imposing boundaries before I met him.  

I think it is just as hard for other to understand as it is for those who have been there to describe what it is like to learn late in life that you have a right to boundaries. It is not as simple as a light bulb going on and things change from there on out. It is an uphill battle both with yourself and with your oppressor(s) regardless of what diagnosis they might fit the criteria for.

I still fight with myself about whether or not I'm "allowed" to erect and enforce a boundary and I have lived in relative safety with safe, supportive people for years now. It's not simple, it's not cut and dried, and it is hard as hell to explain to someone who doesn't already know what it is like.

[heartlikealion]

I think as an adult you can set boundaries and get cut off when you are in a separate household. 

I think when you are an adult living with a narcissist, it’s different. Your life will be impacted. You can’t just go away. 

I will give a stupid example in which I felt powerless. Xh would insist I spent family money at Sam’s Club on items for his work — which we were rarely reimbursed. I tried to refuse and he said if I came home without the items he would go all the way back to the store himself and buy them. I definitely think he would have because he put so much effort into his job and appearances at work. I would lose because I would deal with the drama and he would spend more of our family money by making a second trip (45 min each way. All that gas). 

Another time I was driving around with documents in my car that I was not supposed to have but that Xh had to stash somewhere until they shredded them (different job). I thought this was ethically wrong and not my problem. I had enough after weeks? I drove the car directly to that job and dumped the bin of papers with the manager on duty. I got his wrath about it later about how dare etc. I was out of line blah blah. But all along I thought no, how dare you. Putting me in a compromising situation. I cannot stand people that put me in ethically compromising situations. 

Some people think partners are just passive and meek. I stood up for myself quite a bit but it was exhausting and didn’t lead to change. 

[gardenmom5]

 

1 hour ago, Scarlett said:

You just made my point. You figured out young ( age 13) that something was off, you learned about boundaries, and you learned to enforce them which ultimately got you cut off. Her detesting your boundaries is irrelevant to whether or not you have boundaries. 
Not saying it is easy.  But ultimately it is what we all have to do

no - I may have realized something was "off" - but it took a therapist to point out how damaging what she was doing was to me.  I STILL struggle with boundaries and reality checks.  I've done EMDR for CPTSD - and I still - second guess myself.  This woman - has been dead for 30 years and her brainwashing still adversely affects me.

 

 

 

[heartlikealion]

3 minutes ago, gardenmom5 said:

 

no - I may have realized something was "off" - but it took a therapist to point out how damaging what she was doing was to me.  I STILL struggle with boundaries and reality checks.  I've done EMDR for CPTSD - and I still - second guess myself.  This woman - has been dead for 30 years and her brainwashing still adversely affects me.

I am imagining it may not have been practical to enforce certain boundaries until you were older for fear of being grounded etc for “talking back” but I could be off with that impression. 

[Scarlett]

1 hour ago, gardenmom5 said:

 

no - I may have realized something was "off" - but it took a therapist to point out how damaging what she was doing was to me.  I STILL struggle with boundaries and reality checks.  I've done EMDR for CPTSD - and I still - second guess myself.  This woman - has been dead for 30 years and her brainwashing still adversely affects me.

 

 

 

No what? 
 

 

[gardenmom5]

52 minutes ago, heartlikealion said:

I am imagining it may not have been practical to enforce certain boundaries until you were older for fear of being grounded etc for “talking back” but I could be off with that impression. 

I was the scapegoat, and pretty much ignored by her because I was "a third" (thank you Orson Scott Card.).  I also wouldn't suck-up.  (which *really* ticked her off.  Nope, not selling my soul for a mess of potage.)

But - especially as a teen, I knew not to upset her or there would be consequences.  I honestly felt if it were up to her, I would have been kicked out and exiled for daring to step out of line.   while my drug dealing brother - was 'free from censure' because he sucked up. 

Eventually, I was excluded when she was hosting something.  Not even my mother or sister would tell me something was happening.  I don't know how much they didn't realize what was going on, vs how much was they didn't want to upset her apple cart.

I started learning about these things by chance - it was by my grandmother's reaction to my knowing about it that I came to realize I had been deliberately excluded.   

 

[Carrie12345]

On 8/12/2022 at 5:30 PM, gardenmom5 said:

My father was treated for depression in the 70s.   There is a huge difference in awareness.  

But I've also encountered drs who will go for the easiest "give them a pill to make them feel good and go away"  (including one of my pediatricians - I fired him.).  I think some are just burned out, and should be taking a mental break.  

 

And that’s why I think the ability for the average person to “research” is a terrific thing. Professionals are still humans, many dxs  are subjective (and dependent on a patient’s communication), and most treatments are a judgment call.  Plus, some just suck and others are great.
When I landed a doctor a few weeks ago who readily suggested anxiety meds before I even launched into my long road, I practically leapt with joy. Another time or another patient, and she could have been considered to be taking the easy road.  But I had already been through multiple doctors who blew me off or reluctantly suggested short term solutions that still interfered with my life. SHE finally found me relief.

Some people will use information and resources responsibly, and some won’t. There’s really no getting around that.

Tacking on instead of making a new post -

I happen to be in a family where there are many formal dxs, and we do use what we’ve learned to extrapolate hypotheses on what the rest of our family members “have”.  Just between we 3 siblings, there’s two adhd, one anxiety, and one bi-polar/BPD (two doctors, two different opinions.) Of our 8 kids, there are 4 ASD dxs and one more that probably comes close to criteria, plus one ADHD.  All presenting a bit differently from one another. And I won’t even get into various traumas, up to and including PTSD.
Our father has a known history of depression with strong narc behaviors… so much so that he has written and self-published actual books about self-acceptance for the truly messed up way he’s lived his life. So I’m confident in assuming he’s NPD. 😛 Not surprisingly, we have a conflict-avoidant mother.
I won’t even attempt to armchair dx my paternal grandparents, but there’s a real pattern.

Without getting into the crazy list of my married family, which has a higher percentage of personality-related issues. I’ll just say I’m steeped in personal experience with all sorts of abnormal psychology. I recognize that I’m in a cluster bubble that doesn’t match the overall statistics, but that makes perfect sense with a shared environment.  

I know some people with personal experience take offense to what can legitimately be seen as watering down understanding, and that’s okay.  I tend to see everything as a spectrum (and, I mean really, so many things are), so I’m very happy to share what I understand and to learn from others so we can all keep growing, helping, and creating healthy boundaries around behaviors, whether they qualify for a label or not.
I didn’t begin to heal from the fallout of toxic behaviors until I was in my mid to late 30s. (And I was married at 23.) I don’t wish for other people to wait that long.

[Carrie12345]

On 8/12/2022 at 7:10 PM, Quill said:

know there is not consensus as to how hidden or apparent NPD actually is, but I don’t really buy a high prevalence of “hidden” NPD. It’s not that hard to tell people who are genuine from those who are full of shit. Even the kind who think they are great charmers are quite transparent to the objective eye.

NO ONE knew for years, in my most extreme relation.  Truly.  I was the first to pick up on it years after meeting her.  Did I have an “off” feeling from the beginning? Yes.  But it was nearly a decade before it all started to click, and the internet helped.
It took more YEARS to help someone else *start to see it.
It took the law and the media for anyone else to see it.
Before that, she was simply an “odd” or “difficult” person in most eyes.

Have I seen a formal dx? No. 2 decades of experience, and extended involuntary hold, and a legally binding order to be kept away from two children is enough to solidify my suspicion.

[Scarlett]

@Carrie12345 research is good.  I do it all of the time. For instance about my dgs with regard to his toddler behaviors. Specifically doing so because my dss25 and the baby’s mom are going to have him evaluated.

But it would be weird if every time I met up with a toddler I declared they have autism.  
 

So I think to @Quill’s point it is just weird when suddenly such a huge percentage of people are declaring their spouse or parent are NPD.  Divorces, even the easiest ones, are unpleasant.  Doesn’t mean either party is NPD. Young adults launching from the nest is fraught with big feelings s they find their way. Parents make suggestions, kids don’t like the suggestions often…. Doesn’t mean their parent is NPD.

 

[sweet2ndchance]

I think what it boils down to is that every narcissist is a jerk but not every jerk is a narcissist.

I think some people have never met a true narcissist and they somehow came to the conclusion narcissist and jerk are synonyms.

Others I think, as previous posters have said, just want to be absolved of any blame or guilt in their situation and declare the other party a narcissist to achieve that in their minds. They may not even be conscious of what they are doing.

I do think a law firm would probably see a disproportionate number of narcissists both as opposing parties to their own clients and as potential clients looking to use the legal system as a means to control, punish and abuse. Unfortunately, narcissists and just run-of-the-mill jerks have just as much a right to due process as anyone else.  

[Guest]

23 hours ago, heartlikealion said:

You know I really thought that I was the one that sought divorce in my marriage. Come to find out later in the divorce process that xh had sought divorce council in 2017. So he had no problem hiding his meeting with a divorce lawyer for years, whereas I confessed weeks? after mine (2020) and suggested we share a lawyer. Then got served. 

Just FYI: most lawyers will not do this anyway. You can share meditative counsel, but - at least in my small firm experience - the potential accusations of conflict of interests will drive almost all lawyers to require separate counsel for each party and neither party may retain the attorney who mediated. My boss does mediation and he never represents a party he mediated for. He won’t even gather information beyond the basics (name, kids, living arrangement) prior to mediating because he wants the ethics to be impeccable. 

[Jean in Newcastle]

A couple more thoughts on the possible overuse of the term. People use whatever terms they know to try to get help with unhealthy or even toxic dynamics. It doesn’t mean that they are necessarily using it in a clinical sense. Similar to how people can say that they are depressed and  it doesn’t necessarily mean a clinical depression.  
 

And people try different ways of trying to heal those dynamics.  Some are more effective than others and some are more appropriate to certain situations than others.  Again, thinking about the parallel with depression, some might try medication even temporarily just to see if it will help.  But like always, sometimes people can make things worse instead- ie someone who uses “boundaries” as a weapon instead of in a healthy way, or in the case of depression, someone who has bad side effects from medication that they possibly didn’t need  

The point is that people are struggling to explain and “fix” their lives. Their attempts to do that are often messy and not always successful. There is not much people can do on the sidelines. But compassion is better than judgment. 

[Guest]

So I think to @Quill’s point it is just weird when suddenly such a huge percentage of people are declaring their spouse or parent are NPD.  Divorces, even the easiest ones, are unpleasant.  Doesn’t mean either party is NPD. Young adults launching from the nest is fraught with big feelings s they find their way. Parents make suggestions, kids don’t like the suggestions often…. Doesn’t mean their parent is NPD.

 

Yes. In fact, here’s a different example from my OP: I belong to a FB group for paralegals. Every so often, someone will post about the attorney’s jerky behavior. They will describe selfish, power-tripping, condescending and sometimes borderline abusive behavior. Then comes the flood of replies in which 9 out of 10 people say, “OMG! A narcissist! It will never get any better! You must quit immediately!” Well…I hate that advice and I will give my own reply saying so.  These women - and really, I have never seen a male paralegal or law clerk put up such a post - need to learn to stop accepting that behavior and stop quitting jobs because the attny is a jerk. Give it back to him! Fight back! Tell him to go pound sand! He pours out your pen cup and tells you to clean it up? Tell him to F*CK OFF! He asks you to stay late to work on a file but meanwhile you can’t work on the file because he’s hob-nobbing about golf to another attorney? Interrupt him! And if he acts stunned you interrupted him, tell him your time is valuable too and you will be happy to meet with him at another time when he’s ready to address the cases. 
 

I think a lot of the paralegals have heard/read stuff that says you can’t do anything about a narcissist but cut them out of your life, and then, when every a-hole you have to deal with is automatically a “narcissist”, you’ve got a bunch of people - mostly *women* - just migrating from one job to another because they have no skills for standing up to the asshole attorney. And then some other paralegal will taken the now-open job and, unless * that* woman stands up and tells that attny to go pound sand, we are all just throwing our fellow paralegals to the wolves again and again. 
 

For an awesome study on how this dynamic plays out, watch The Devil Wears Prada. The character played by Anne Hathaway accepts being called “Emily”, even though her name is Annie. She changes her hair and clothes so she will be approved of by her boss. She carries out an all-but-impossible task by getting the Harry Potter unpublished manuscript for her boss’ kids. Well, I see a lot of that kind of behavior in the paralegal group, too. They don’t draw a boundary. And the dynamic morphs into an awful dysfunctional dynamic. At that point, it may *be true* that all you can do is leave. 

[heartlikealion]

32 minutes ago, Quill said:

Just FYI: most lawyers will not do this anyway. You can share meditative counsel, but - at least in my small firm experience - the potential accusations of conflict of interests will drive almost all lawyers to require separate counsel for each party and neither party may retain the attorney who mediated. My boss does mediation and he never represents a party he mediated for. He won’t even gather information beyond the basics (name, kids, living arrangement) prior to mediating because he wants the ethics to be impeccable. 

I meant no court. Just meet with her at her office and make a settlement. One lawyer fee. That was her suggestion. He wouldn’t even come in, though. And I knew we’d never see eye to eye on custody. We did settle outside of court in the very end but that was because days before our court date we received the second GAL report and affidavit from my teen. I wouldn’t have made any headway in court. 

The entire process involved 2 hired lawyers per party (yes we paid 4 lawyers) and 2 hearings. I fired my first lawyer and his first lawyer died. 

[Carrie12345]

1 minute ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

 

The point is that people are struggling to explain and “fix” their lives. Their attempts to do that are often messy and not always successful. There is not much people can do on the sidelines. But compassion is better than judgment.

Communicating abnormal behaviors/situations is complicated with our vocabulary, so your post makes 100% sense to me. 
 

I spoke to my sister this morning, and she had a nice story to share about a recent meltdown. A family with a child who visibly seemed to be special needs stopped to offer a little comfort and support. An employee went above and beyond to not only comfort, but give a positive shopping trip. 
My sister simply said dn was struggling with some sensory issues that day, and the employee volunteered “Oh, I’m autistic!” And then conversed with dn to see what she needed in order to feel comfortable. 
 

Of everyone involved, only one announced their dx, but every one had sympathy/empathy/understanding of the issue at hand based on the behavior displayed, without need for a “legitimate” diagnosis. 
 

To me, that’s the bottom line. Maybe someone’s S for brains spouse ISN’T NPD. So what? I can still sympathize with the person’s experience with a S for brains with Narc behaviors. 
If someone who only thinks they have ADHD can sympathize with my all over the place thoughts, that’s great, too. 

[Jean in Newcastle]

5 minutes ago, Quill said:

So I think to @Quill’s point it is just weird when suddenly such a huge percentage of people are declaring their spouse or parent are NPD.  Divorces, even the easiest ones, are unpleasant.  Doesn’t mean either party is NPD. Young adults launching from the nest is fraught with big feelings s they find their way. Parents make suggestions, kids don’t like the suggestions often…. Doesn’t mean their parent is NPD.

 

Yes. In fact, here’s a different example from my OP: I belong to a FB group for paralegals. Every so often, someone will post about the attorney’s jerky behavior. They will describe selfish, power-tripping, condescending and sometimes borderline abusive behavior. Then comes the flood of replies in which 9 out of 10 people say, “OMG! A narcissist! It will never get any better! You must quit immediately!” Well…I hate that advice and I will give my own reply saying so.  These women - and really, I have never seen a male paralegal or law clerk put up such a post - need to learn to stop accepting that behavior and stop quitting jobs because the attny is a jerk. Give it back to him! Fight back! Tell him to go pound sand! He pours out your pen cup and tells you to clean it up? Tell him to F*CK OFF! He asks you to stay late to work on a file but meanwhile you can’t work on the file because he’s hob-nobbing about golf to another attorney? Interrupt him! And if he acts stunned you interrupted him, tell him your time is valuable too and you will be happy to meet with him at another time when he’s ready to address the cases. 
 

I think a lot of the paralegals have heard/read stuff that says you can’t do anything about a narcissist but cut them out of your life, and then, when every a-hole you have to deal with is automatically a “narcissist”, you’ve got a bunch of people - mostly *women* - just migrating from one job to another because they have no skills for standing up to the asshole attorney. And then some other paralegal will taken the now-open job and, unless * that* woman stands up and tells that attny to go pound sand, we are all just throwing our fellow paralegals to the wolves again and again. 
 

For an awesome study on how this dynamic plays out, watch The Devil Wears Prada. The character played by Anne Hathaway accepts being called “Emily”, even though her name is Annie. She changes her hair and clothes so she will be approved of by her boss. She carries out an all-but-impossible task by getting the Harry Potter unpublished manuscript for her boss’ kids. Well, I see a lot of that kind of behavior in the paralegal group, too. They don’t draw a boundary. And the dynamic morphs into an awful dysfunctional dynamic. At that point, it may *be true* that all you can do is leave. 

Their boss might or might not be narcissistic (in a general sense) but they are missing the point that the first step in handling such dynamics is to actually set boundaries. Your examples of fighting back are examples of setting boundaries. Then if it gets worse or even stays the same, they can quit. 
 

I too am a fighter. I went nose to nose with a beet red shouting general who was now working in the private sector. Everyone thought that I would be fired for sure (and obviously that was one possible scenario) but what happened was that I earned his respect and after that he always asked for me on his team (which wasn’t always a positive from my perspective!). 

[heartlikealion]

14 minutes ago, Quill said:

So I think to @Quill’s point it is just weird when suddenly such a huge percentage of people are declaring their spouse or parent are NPD.  Divorces, even the easiest ones, are unpleasant.  Doesn’t mean either party is NPD. Young adults launching from the nest is fraught with big feelings s they find their way. Parents make suggestions, kids don’t like the suggestions often…. Doesn’t mean their parent is NPD.

 

Yes. In fact, here’s a different example from my OP: I belong to a FB group for paralegals. Every so often, someone will post about the attorney’s jerky behavior. They will describe selfish, power-tripping, condescending and sometimes borderline abusive behavior. Then comes the flood of replies in which 9 out of 10 people say, “OMG! A narcissist! It will never get any better! You must quit immediately!” Well…I hate that advice and I will give my own reply saying so.  These women - and really, I have never seen a male paralegal or law clerk put up such a post - need to learn to stop accepting that behavior and stop quitting jobs because the attny is a jerk. Give it back to him! Fight back! Tell him to go pound sand! He pours out your pen cup and tells you to clean it up? Tell him to F*CK OFF! He asks you to stay late to work on a file but meanwhile you can’t work on the file because he’s hob-nobbing about golf to another attorney? Interrupt him! And if he acts stunned you interrupted him, tell him your time is valuable too and you will be happy to meet with him at another time when he’s ready to address the cases. 
 

I think a lot of the paralegals have heard/read stuff that says you can’t do anything about a narcissist but cut them out of your life, and then, when every a-hole you have to deal with is automatically a “narcissist”, you’ve got a bunch of people - mostly *women* - just migrating from one job to another because they have no skills for standing up to the asshole attorney. And then some other paralegal will taken the now-open job and, unless * that* woman stands up and tells that attny to go pound sand, we are all just throwing our fellow paralegals to the wolves again and again. 
 

For an awesome study on how this dynamic plays out, watch The Devil Wears Prada. The character played by Anne Hathaway accepts being called “Emily”, even though her name is Annie. She changes her hair and clothes so she will be approved of by her boss. She carries out an all-but-impossible task by getting the Harry Potter unpublished manuscript for her boss’ kids. Well, I see a lot of that kind of behavior in the paralegal group, too. They don’t draw a boundary. And the dynamic morphs into an awful dysfunctional dynamic. At that point, it may *be true* that all you can do is leave. 

Were you seriously suggesting to tell a boss to F off or pound sand? I wouldn’t tell any boss that. There are ways to enforce boundaries without being unprofessional. But if your work environment is so toxic you think you have to cuss out your boss, it doesn’t sound worth staying regardless of if the boss is a narcissist. Yes I’d keep quitting jobs if I had to work for guys like that. I’d probably go into another field if it was that bad. 

[heartlikealion]

Setting boundaries does not have to look like a fight. It’s about saying what you will do. 

“I will email these files if I have them by 5pm” as opposed to, “if you don’t get your ass off the golf course and …” (I know those weren’t actual words from this thread) 

we learned JADE in the narcissistic abuse recovery class. I think it can be applied to other jerks as well. 
do not Justify 

do not Argue

do not Defend

do not Explain 

[Guest]

1 hour ago, heartlikealion said:

Were you seriously suggesting to tell a boss to F off or pound sand? I wouldn’t tell any boss that. There are ways to enforce boundaries without being unprofessional. But if your work environment is so toxic you think you have to cuss out your boss, it doesn’t sound worth staying regardless of if the boss is a narcissist. Yes I’d keep quitting jobs if I had to work for guys like that. I’d probably go into another field if it was that bad. 

I would seriously tell my boss to F off if he poured my pen cup out and told me to clean it up. Yes I would absolutely match his shockingly bad behavior with my own shockingly bad rebuke. 
 

See, this is one way I think females especially have been culturally conditioned against defending ourselves. “oh, don’t use bad language…oh don’t sink to his level…oh no need to act like less of a lady…” I don’t worry about that anymore. 
 

Also, not for nothing but attorneys are frequently people with certain behaviors that metastasize according to the responses they get/don’t get. I have information about some things my current boss did before to other legal assistants that he has not done with me. In a few instances, I 100% believe he was trying to manipulate me but I refused.   

[Indigo Blue]

1 hour ago, heartlikealion said:

we learned JADE in the narcissistic abuse recovery class. I think it can be applied to other jerks as well. 
do not Justify 

do not Argue

do not Defend

do not Explain 

I’ve seen this online. Good advice if you are dealing with a really nasty narcissist. An @sshole can be dealt with sometimes by being willing to stand up to them. Don’t underestimate the damage an NPD person can do. 
 

I try so hard to keep topics light when I visit my mom. It’s hard. Just last week, I found myself almost sucked into an argument on whether a certain talk show host on a certain talk show was on vacation or whether she was leaving the show. She’s just SO authoritative and presents things as facts, when they are not. She’ll do that just for the sake of being the one who is right. It’s hard to even have light and boring conversations. 
 

So, definitely, with bigger things, JADE is imperative. 

[Jean in Newcastle]

8 minutes ago, Quill said:

I would seriously tell my boss to F off if he poured my pen cup out and told me to clean it up. Yes I would absolutely match his shockingly bad behavior with my own shockingly bad rebuke. 
 

See, this is one way I think females especially have been culturally conditioned against defending ourselves. “oh, don’t use bad language…oh don’t sink to his level…oh no need to act like less of a lady…” I don’t worry about that anymore. 
 

Also, not for nothing but attorneys are frequently people with certain behaviors that metastasize according to the responses they get/don’t get. I have information about some things my current boss did before to other legal assistants that he has not done with me. In a few instances, I 100% believe he was trying to manipulate me but I refused.   

I used to work as a housekeeper for a celebrity in her field. Everyone celebrated her Divaishness (I made up that word) because she was a “genius” and apparently that made everything ok. Except me. She would toss a banana peel on my newly mopped floor. I had extremely “bad” eyesight and hearing around her. For some reason I just couldn’t see those dropped peels or hear those barked commands. She continued to treat the rest of her extensive staff as dirt except for me. She also had some times when she confided in me in how lonely she was because everyone called her a genius to her face but actually hated her….

 

eta:  sometimes boundaries can be set quietly. 

Edited August 14, 2022 by Jean in Newcastle

[Indigo Blue]

4 minutes ago, Quill said:

I would seriously tell my boss to F off if he poured my pen cup out and told me to clean it up. Yes I would absolutely match his shockingly bad behavior with my own shockingly bad rebuke. 
 

See, this is one way I think females especially have been culturally conditioned against defending ourselves. “oh, don’t use bad language…oh don’t sink to his level…oh no need to act like less of a lady…” I don’t worry about that anymore. 
 

Also, not for nothing but attorneys are frequently people with certain behaviors that metastasize according to the responses they get/don’t get. I have information about some things my current boss did before to other legal assistants that he has not done with me. In a few instances, I 100% believe he was trying to manipulate me but I refused.   

Honestly, if someone poured out my pen cup like that when I knew I was a darn good assistant and was working my behind off for him, it’d be tough not to jump up and give him a piece of my mind. NPD or not. But I can’t imagine some doing something like that unless they were a 10/10 on the abusive level scale. Probably would not want to work for someone like that, anyway. If he wanted to be that stupid and risk a perfectly good assistant quitting on him, that’s on him. Tough consequences. 
 

Also, just want to add, I’m sure you know about the list of fields that attract narcissistic people. Attorneys, surgeons, and clergy (religious narcissists) ….these fields all attract narcissists. Some may be narcissistic jerks; some may be diagnosable. 
 

You make a good point about women needing to stand up for themselves in these male-dominated narcissist laden fields. Still, my logical self says be careful at the same time. 

[heartlikealion]

19 minutes ago, Quill said:

I would seriously tell my boss to F off if he poured my pen cup out and told me to clean it up. Yes I would absolutely match his shockingly bad behavior with my own shockingly bad rebuke. 
 

See, this is one way I think females especially have been culturally conditioned against defending ourselves. “oh, don’t use bad language…oh don’t sink to his level…oh no need to act like less of a lady…” I don’t worry about that anymore. 
 

Also, not for nothing but attorneys are frequently people with certain behaviors that metastasize according to the responses they get/don’t get. I have information about some things my current boss did before to other legal assistants that he has not done with me. In a few instances, I 100% believe he was trying to manipulate me but I refused.   

I’m not afraid to cuss. But inside an office where I supposedly want to keep my job? I can’t imagine wanting to work for this man. So why fight to train him how to be a decent human? Those ladies were setting boundaries. You think they were weak for quitting but they were saying I will not work in this environment. 

Leaving a toxic environment is a way to set a boundary. 

Going to HR is another option. But I’d still consider quitting after going to HR. Now they have a paper trail. You are helping others behind you by reporting the behavior. 

If a boss dumped my pen cup and asked me to link it up I think I’d be more prone to question him or march straight to HR, tell them what happened and inform them I’m leaving for the day (if I didn’t want to stick around). 

[Indigo Blue]

Honestly, with the culture we live in now, it seems to be getting so crucial that we, as parents, educate ourselves so that we can educate our children what narcissistic personality disorder is just as we would teach them geography or writing. These young people, especially these empathic ones, need to be versed in what it means to be love-bombed, devalued, and discarded. To know some of the red flags such as a new boyfriend trying to isolate their daughter from friends and family. How charming a disordered person can seemingly be but ….and you never see it coming….then comes the harsh reality of their true abusive self. It has nothing to do with how smart we are. It can happen to anyone. Anyone. I think we should read up on this and teach our children. Even Jim Browning himself got scammed by scummy scammers. 

[heartlikealion]

32 minutes ago, Indigo Blue said:

Honestly, if someone poured out my pen cup like that when I knew I was a darn good assistant and was working my behind off for him, it’d be tough not to jump up and give him a piece of my mind. NPD or not. But I can’t imagine some doing something like that unless they were a 10/10 on the abusive level scale. Probably would not want to work for someone like that, anyway. If he wanted to be that stupid and risk a perfectly good assistant quitting on him, that’s on him. Tough consequences. 
 

Also, just want to add, I’m sure you know about the list of fields that attract narcissistic people. Attorneys, surgeons, and clergy (religious narcissists) ….these fields all attract narcissists. Some may be narcissistic jerks; some may be diagnosable. 
 

You make a good point about women needing to stand up for themselves in these male-dominated narcissist laden fields. Still, my logical self says be careful at the same time. 

I don’t know the full list but I know academia is on it. 

I’ve met a handful of male lawyers only and I cannot imagine any of them acting like this. If it was prevalent in an area (with the men) I’d go work for a female lol 

Edited August 14, 2022 by heartlikealion

[Guest]

7 minutes ago, Indigo Blue said:

Honestly, if someone poured out my pen cup like that when I knew I was a darn good assistant and was working my behind off for him, it’d be tough not to jump up and give him a piece of my mind. NPD or not. But I can’t imagine some doing something like that unless they were a 10/10 on the abusive level scale. Probably would not want to work for someone like that, anyway. If he wanted to be that stupid and risk a perfectly good assistant quitting on him, that’s on him. Tough consequences.

Okay, but hear me out: probably NOBODY in ANY setting starts out as a 10/10 abuser. Isn’t that supposed to be part of the deviousness of truly NPD narcissists? That they seem very charming and they DONT begin as 10/10? But they work up to that the more entangled you become. 
 

So how one responds to those “smaller” abuses is going to either make the abuse-prone power-tripper see you as easily manipulated OR absolutely not one to be messed with. 
 

My boss tried at one point to tell me he was going to give me a raise “from $38k to $40k”. He said it like he was giving me some real treat. However, I was actually already being paid $40K. Now - did he make an honest mistake and forgot my pay? Certainly it is *possible*. But I don’t think that is the case. I think he was trying to manipulate me into accepting no actual raise. I think he would have said something like, “Oh, look! It turns out you are already paid that much! [implied: so you don’t need a raise at all!]” 

The way I responded mattered. He did give me a true $2k/year raise at that time. But I was pretty salty with him because I wanted to make it clear that a) I know exactly what my salary is; and b) I am not going to be manipulated into accepting no raise. And yes, just FTR, I did throw an f-bomb in there. And his response told me a lot about what he was really trying to do; he was sheepish and said I was “being difficult”.  And actually part of why I think he was trying to manipulate me was because his body language was the same as when he’s trying to get insurance adjusters to capitulate to his demands. In fact, I think it is likely I got the job in the first place because he expected a sweet little homeschool mom in a Catholic homeschool group would be the type of employee he could bulldoze. He was very shocked to learn how “liberal” I am. 

[heartlikealion]

6 minutes ago, Quill said:

Okay, but hear me out: probably NOBODY in ANY setting starts out as a 10/10 abuser. Isn’t that supposed to be part of the deviousness of truly NPD narcissists? That they seem very charming and they DONT begin as 10/10? But they work up to that the more entangled you become. 
 

So how one responds to those “smaller” abuses is going to either make the abuse-prone power-tripper see you as easily manipulated OR absolutely not one to be messed with. 
 

My boss tried at one point to tell me he was going to give me a raise “from $38k to $40k”. He said it like he was giving me some real treat. However, I was actually already being paid $40K. Now - did he make an honest mistake and forgot my pay? Certainly it is *possible*. But I don’t think that is the case. I think he was trying to manipulate me into accepting no actual raise. I think he would have said something like, “Oh, look! It turns out you are already paid that much! [implied: so you don’t need a raise at all!]” 

The way I responded mattered. He did give me a true $2k/year raise at that time. But I was pretty salty with him because I wanted to make it clear that a) I know exactly what my salary is; and b) I am not going to be manipulated into accepting no raise. And yes, just FTR, I did throw an f-bomb in there. And his response told me a lot about what he was really trying to do; he was sheepish and said I was “being difficult”.  And actually part of why I think he was trying to manipulate me was because his body language was the same as when he’s trying to get insurance adjusters to capitulate to his demands. In fact, I think it is likely I got the job in the first place because he expected a sweet little homeschool mom in a Catholic homeschool group would be the type of employee he could bulldoze. He was very shocked to learn how “liberal” I am. 

I just don’t get why you stay there. What an ass. But maybe you don’t directly deal with him many hours of the day. And I dunno I guess I’d be talking to payroll about my wages rather than dealing with him if at all possible. 

[sweet2ndchance]

Different people with different personalities and backgrounds will do things differently as will different age groups.

When I was a younger adult , I was more likely to take Heart's way of doing things. Now that I'm older and just don't give a damn what anyone thinks anymore, I'm more apt to act like Quill. If responding in kind to the way I was treated will get me fired, then so be it. No job is worth being treated like less than a person to me any more.

Neither way is right or better imo. Just different. And in my case anyways, the change in attitude and behavior has to do with my particular life experience.

Everyone's mileage will vary on this one in my opinion.

[sweet2ndchance]

1 minute ago, heartlikealion said:

I just don’t get why you stay there. What an ass. But maybe you don’t directly deal with him many hours of the day. And I dunno I guess I’d be talking to payroll about my wages rather than dealing with him if at all possible. 

Not everywhere has a payroll or HR. Small companies and family owned businesses don't have these things.

[heartlikealion]

Outspoken asses are a thing. But I don’t know if you’d see that behavior during say a job interview. You might pick up on the ass thing day 1. 

Curious how pen cup guy acted early on. 

[Guest]

31 minutes ago, heartlikealion said:

Going to HR is another option. But I’d still consider quitting after going to HR. Now they have a paper trail. You are helping others behind you by reporting the behavior. 

Not all attorneys have HR. Sole practitioners (like mine) and other smaller firms hardly ever do. 
 

Im not saying those paralegals are “weak,” but I think it is unwise to quietly accept such behavior. In every relationship, you shape the future interactions by your response today; Boss-employee, MIL-DIL, friends, neighbors, love relationships…future interactions are shaped by today’s responses. And one thing I learned the hard way is this: if you are dealing with a powerful or grandiose person, you better match their “bigness”. If they think you can be exploited, they will exploit you. My current boss has told me his former assistant was “a mouse”. I have no doubt at all that his perception of her as a mouse is why he did borderline abusive things to her that he does not do to me. I don’t know what he would characterize me as - for all I know, it’s “a bitch” - but he does not manipulate me into accepting things that should not be accepted. 

[Guest]

5 minutes ago, heartlikealion said:

I just don’t get why you stay there. What an ass. But maybe you don’t directly deal with him many hours of the day. And I dunno I guess I’d be talking to payroll about my wages rather than dealing with him if at all possible. 

Ah well…I am looking for a better  job right now but it’s actually not because of him. I can manage him fine. But he sold the firm and I need a different situation soon. 
 

He’s a sole practitioner. It was all him, all the time. There has never been a Payroll Dept or HR. Just me and him. 

[Guest]

6 minutes ago, heartlikealion said:

Outspoken asses are a thing. But I don’t know if you’d see that behavior during say a job interview. You might pick up on the ass thing day 1. 

Curious how pen cup guy acted early on. 

Yeah I wonder, too, about pen cup guy. 

[heartlikealion]

1 minute ago, sweet2ndchance said:

Not everywhere has a payroll or HR. Small companies and family owned businesses don't have these things.

But she works in a lawyer’s office so I’m thinking maybe this firm has a couple employees for this. I don’t know. I have worked at both kinds of jobs. My current job does not have that and I do have to talk to my boss directly about money. 

As far as how to address a person… It’s not that I’m afraid to speak my mind or cuss but within the parameters of a job I’d feel less professional reacting certain ways. Yes, you can do it but you also risk being dismissed as that “crazy woman.” I did lose my cool in the office once. I was very pregnant and had a difficult coworker. I slapped the desk and said something to her. Then I left the room. Word got around the office and they didn’t want the pregnant woman stressing lol 

If you will never need people from a given office as a reference the demeanor you keep is less relevant IMO.

[Indigo Blue]

4 minutes ago, Quill said:

So how one responds to those “smaller” abuses is going to either make the abuse-prone power-tripper see you as easily manipulated OR absolutely not one to be messed with. 

I agree. It’s why you can divide people into two camps. Those that prey and those that get preyed upon. If you let people walk on you, they will. I admit I don’t have the guts you have. I will just flat out tell you that I could assert myself and then ruminate all the way home wondering if I had acted like a big biotch. (Not saying you did!!) Because of the way I was programmed? Probably. But I did once stand up to my boss in a two person office. 
 

No, they probably don’t begin at a 10. Generally, not being someone who can be easily messed with is good. Most of the time, it gets you respected. It’s the rest that get taken advantage of. If you’re one of those, you might end up being taken advantage of no matter how toxic the boss is. I tend to be one of these, but even I have my line. It takes A LOT to get me angry. But when I do it’s for good reason and WATCH OUT. All holds barred. 
 

If the person isn’t dangerously toxic, life goes on and everyone knows their place in the pecking order. 
 

I’m only tying to caution that a truly NPD person can really wreak havoc. They will dig down deep in the mud to sociopath levels and there is no limit to how far they will go. Just know this. They are never wrong. Just imagine you work alone in an office with a windbag president. He makes you angry one day. You stand up for yourself. He jumps up all red faced and he knocks all the “oranges” off his desk. We all know whose going to win that yuge, I mean huge, fight. All of them are like that.
 

Im guessing your boss is just sometimes difficult…and stubborn? I don’t know for sure… probably not narcissistic? 
 

Anyway, I’m enjoying this discussion. It’s been interesting. 
 

 

[heartlikealion]

My bad I thought @Quill was working for pen guy… guess he’s just another ass. 

As a general rule I agree to setting boundaries in the form of speaking up where applicable, but I can also understand some women (or people in general) thinking this is not a battle I’m choosing. Imagine if you’re a person of color and have to debate on whether to address a racist remark head on or not. People get exhausted correcting other’s behavior. Choosing to reserve your energy and mental health is also valid. I’d rather quit than try to convert someone. 
 

Flight, Fight, Freeze, and Fawn. 
People make different choices. 

 

[Indigo Blue]

22 minutes ago, heartlikealion said:

Curious how pen cup guy acted early on. 

Did this actually happen? I couldn’t tell if you were just giving an example. That’s clear cut abuse. 

[Indigo Blue]

And I’m sitting here going, gosh,

Quill is making  some really good points and then…

Heart is making  some really good points 

🤯

Edited August 14, 2022 by Indigo Blue

[Scarlett]

8 minutes ago, Indigo Blue said:

Did this actually happen? I couldn’t tell if you were just giving an example. That’s clear cut abuse. 

I think it was an example given on a paralegal board she is on. 

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, Indigo Blue said:

Did this actually happen? I couldn’t tell if you were just giving an example. That’s clear cut abuse. 

It was an example someone on my paralegal online group gave. She was not in a position to quit but she listed several bonkers/abusive things he did. But I also don’t know what her response is to these things and it does appear that she is not sending a loud and clear message that she will not be messed with. 
 

I do agree that there are dangerous people who are best quit rather than confronted, including the “oranges” guy and others of that type. But now we’ve come full circle from my OP, because I believe most people who are jerks are just jerks and are not NPD, even if they do have certain traits like that. My boss does not have NPD, but he has and displays some narcissist traits from time to time. And so, early on, I realized how I responded to him was going to matter. I can see that, the same traits that make a person a successful sole practitioner of law are traits that can be used manipulatively on others. 
 

Here’s another example Re: my boss. My boss will not pay for a cleaning service. He is too cheap to do it. But he made quite a bit of hay about assuming I would clean. (You know, cause I’m a “girl”…🧐) He just dropped hints about it constantly. I knew he was trying to manipulate me into becoming the office cleaning lady, but, other than keeping my specific areas presentable, I do not clean. And I 100% never clean the mens room. I don’t go in there. 
 

Eventually, he mostly stopped dropping hints to try to get me to be the cleaning lady. But he does act huffy about it sometimes when he deins to finally run a duster or vacuum through the office. 😄

[Guest]

Also, I like what @Jean in Newcastle said about “having bad eyesight” in some instances and that is a strategy I have also used. My predecessor in this position used to monitor the parking meter out the window all day and would jump up to feed the meter when the meter monitor came walking around. Well…I’m not there to be a parking attendant. So I never once ran out there to put quarters in my boss’ meter. (He never fed it; he just wanted me to feed it if the monitor was coming round.) After he got ticketed a couple of times and other times ran out there himself to BS the monitor into not ticketing him, he stopped expecting me to do it. I would simply always say I was too focused on my actual work to keep checking for the meter monitor. “oh, too bad; I didn’t see her; I was too busy reading through these medicals…” 

[heartlikealion]

39 minutes ago, Indigo Blue said:

Did this actually happen? I couldn’t tell if you were just giving an example. That’s clear cut abuse. 

I was referencing the guy in one of Quill’s posts and I thought he actually behaved that way. It may have been a hypothetical scenario, though. I was thinking that kind of cut throat behavior would send me packing and if I was worried about how he treated future employees I’d just tell them about him in that shared group they all talk on and/or report to HR. Quill said several women there complain and quit. They need to drop names among themselves. 

[heartlikealion]

Just want to clarify I support a person’s choice in dealing with nasty bosses how they see fit. Well not including violence, anyway. The feedback they get will obviously impact their satisfaction with their decision. I had it drilled into me not to burn bridges so I just try to leave all my jobs on decent terms. Plus everyone is related to someone here! You kinda have to be careful. 

@Quill yes I do believe that the last employee didn’t speak up enough. Maybe it was out of her comfort zone. 

I’ve literally annoyed my boss with my opinions/questions to the point she said, “next time I’ll have so and so do it” and frankly fine with me lol I’m very aware that my thoughts are not always valued and one day hope to work somewhere where I’m not scared to share them. 

[pitterpatter]

Gardenmom5 and others have spoken many truths. I don't have much to add that isn't reiterating what they've already said. All I know is that I am currently undergoing emotional abuse from three different people (and three different personalities). One from a relationship that wasn't even originally mine but is greatly impacting another person in my life that I love. It has spilled over onto me. While all three relationships are distinct and separate, they're also kind of oddly connected in my life. None of them are overtly focused on me (or, at least, I'm not the sole object of or root reason for the abuse), but the abuse is such that it has completely taken over and destroyed my life. Over the past month, I have finally allowed myself to call it all abuse. Because it is. It's really messed up stuff. Being able to armchair diagnose and understand that these relationships are not normal, has been freeing. I am not out of any of it, but I'm feeling empowered at the moment, which is the difference between being any to cope and not. I don't like playing games. So, I will always lose against these people. I don't like having to analyze every freaking interaction I have with these people. It is impossible for me to stay even a half-step ahead, so I spend a lot of time in damage control. But understanding that I'm being played, helps. (What's funny/not so funny is that I already knew I was being played in one of these relationships and thought I had it under control. I thought I was ahead. Nope, I was royally getting my butted kicked.)

What kind of makes it all worse is that all three of these people were either sexually, physically, and/or emotionally abused themselves. I can understand why they are who they are. And, I feel empathy for them. (I'm finding that it is impossible for me to hate anyone.) But, I'm also trying to mitigate what's happening to me. Ultimately, I hope the one relationship disappears, the second improves with therapy (because I very much want and need this person in my life), and the third, well that one isn't going away or improving until he/she passes away.

I don't even know why I'm writing this. I think that maybe if you're reading this thread and wondering whether you are in an emotionally abusive relationship, that the alarm bells have probably been ringing for quite a while. I want you to realize that it's okay to research and armchair diagnose. Emotional abuse is real, and it's destructive. If you are finding it difficult to cope, there's a reason for it. Knowledge truly is power.

[Slache]

@pitterpatter Many people are physically, emotionally and sexually abused, but only some like that. It's a reason, not an excuse.

 

Edited August 14, 2022 by Slache