Streams of Engineering

[whitestavern]

Get him involved in ACE if you have a local chapter. My son did it. It’s a fabulous program. 
 

https://www.acementor.org

 

[Clarita]

42 minutes ago, Teaching3bears said:

Hmm … are all the streams of engineering this much work?  

I don't know I think so? I'm probably also the wrong person to ask about it. Since I would like my kids to work this hard if they are going to spend the money to go to college, but that's a different discussion.

To give you insight though, you may look into a nearby University for this information as well. I found UC Berkeley lists out their graduation requirements for their college of engineering.

https://engineering.berkeley.edu/students/undergraduate-guide/degree-requirements/degree-worksheets/

Look at the worksheets for each engineering degree. You'll see Humanities/Sciences, UC Campus Requirements and Ethics aside from those all the other classes will be your major courses. Every 4 units is about a class some classes maybe 3 units or 5 units and they do that to try and reflect the workload of a class. Sometimes having more units in a course could mean  a "lab" portion is a part of that class. If you kind of divide that total by 4 years you can kind of see what the workload looks like for the different majors. You can probably find descriptions of those classes to get a better sense as well.

[Rachel]

2 hours ago, Teaching3bears said:

Hmm … are all the streams of engineering this much work?  I think he likes to focus on one thing.  That is why I think math might be better.  I don’t know why he turned against it.  

Yes! I don’t know about civil. But I know mechanical and electrical are a ton of work. There is a lot of homework and it all builds on each other. It’s a lot of math..4 semesters of just calculus. My husband and I were married when he got his degree, he didn’t have much free time. 
 

My sister is a mechanical as well, she took an extra year to finish. My brother is an  electrical engineer, he didn’t have any extra curricular activities in college. 

 

[Arcadia]

3 hours ago, Teaching3bears said:

Hmm … are all the streams of engineering this much work?  

Engineering is heavy duty on workload if the student wants to stay on dean’s list. I have cousins who would employ me and my parents paid for my tuition. So I could party every Friday, give tuition, work at the university’s computer center, have many extracurricular activities without worrying about maintaining my GPA. My work experience was good enough for me to get a few job offers before officially graduating despite being bottom in class rank. My employers didn’t want a fresh graduate who is studious but lack ECAs and work experience that is not internships. 

[Melissa in Australia]

4 hours ago, Teaching3bears said:

What do you mean: which math between algebra and calculus?

yes, I know his interested could change!😀

Geometry, trigonometry etc

[Melissa in Australia]

Do the faculties at University have open days with info over there?

Edited May 9, 2022 by Melissa in Australia

[Teaching3bears]

59 minutes ago, Melissa in Australia said:

Geometry, trigonometry etc

I thought trigonometry kind I’d came after calculus.  He was not to interested in geometry.

[gardenmom5]

6 hours ago, Teaching3bears said:

What do you mean: which math between algebra and calculus?

yes, I know his interested could change!😀

 

Algebra 2?

Geometry is a foundation needed for college level math.  

Trigonometry?

pre-calculus will give a better foundation for progressing through the multiple levels of calculus. 

There's a reason they do math in a given order - the concepts build upon each other.

 High school physics is algebra based.

 

 1ds's engineering  math requirements for his BS were:   

a year of calculus with analytic geometry,

linear algebra, differential equations,

Matrix algebra, advanced multivariable calculus, 

 

Some of what you describe makes me wonder: Does your son feel he is being pushed faster than he's ready to proceed?   Is he pushing himself with unreasonable expectations?

I wonder if his fear of failure in math, or dislike of algebra, - is he lacking understanding of certain math concepts without really understanding he has holes in his math education?   My engineer didn't realize he had holes in his math understanding until he decided he wanted to do engineering and went and started a program of math study all over from first grade to calculus (in five months) on his own prior to starting his AST in mechanical engineering and he started seeing the concept holes.

[gardenmom5]

1 hour ago, Teaching3bears said:

I thought trigonometry kind I’d came after calculus.  He was not to interested in geometry.

Trig comes first.

He's going to get into subjects (e.g. physics and upper level math) that require an understanding of geometry.

 

[Arcadia]

7 hours ago, Teaching3bears said:

What do you mean: which math between algebra and calculus?

yes, I know his interested could change!😀

 

2 hours ago, Teaching3bears said:

I thought trigonometry kind I’d came after calculus.  He was not to interested in geometry.

Sample math progression chart from a public high school in my region. Trigonometry is done with algebra 2 and/or precalculus 

[Melissa in Australia]

another idea is to look up the entrance requirements of the different fields of engineering at various universities. it will help with selecting what subjects to study now

[Teaching3bears]

6 hours ago, gardenmom5 said:

 

Algebra 2?

Geometry is a foundation needed for college level math.  

Trigonometry?

pre-calculus will give a better foundation for progressing through the multiple levels of calculus. 

There's a reason they do math in a given order - the concepts build upon each other.

 High school physics is algebra based.

 

 1ds's engineering  math requirements for his BS were:   

a year of calculus with analytic geometry,

linear algebra, differential equations,

Matrix algebra, advanced multivariable calculus, 

 

Some of what you describe makes me wonder: Does your son feel he is being pushed faster than he's ready to proceed?   Is he pushing himself with unreasonable expectations?

I wonder if his fear of failure in math, or dislike of algebra, - is he lacking understanding of certain math concepts without really understanding he has holes in his math education?   My engineer didn't realize he had holes in his math understanding until he decided he wanted to do engineering and went and started a program of math study all over from first grade to calculus (in five months) on his own prior to starting his AST in mechanical engineering and he started seeing the concept holes.

He did do precalculus.  He was self-teaching and had some gaps.  He had a tutor help with the gaps.  That kind of fizzled during the pandemic.  It also seems like he lost his drive and passion and just wants to be lazy. 

[fairfarmhand]

11 hours ago, Rachel said:

Yes! I don’t know about civil. But I know mechanical and electrical are a ton of work. There is a lot of homework and it all builds on each other. It’s a lot of math..4 semesters of just calculus. My husband and I were married when he got his degree, he didn’t have much free time. 
 

My sister is a mechanical as well, she took an extra year to finish. My brother is an  electrical engineer, he didn’t have any extra curricular activities in college. 

 

Civil is tons of work. No part time jobs, no extracurriculars.

[KungFuPanda]

6 hours ago, Arcadia said:

 

Sample math progression chart from a public high school in my region. Trigonometry is done with algebra 2 and/or precalculus 

Just adding another HS progression chart and thought it would be handy to have the visuals together

[KungFuPanda]

46 minutes ago, Teaching3bears said:

He did do precalculus.  He was self-teaching and had some gaps.  He had a tutor help with the gaps.  That kind of fizzled during the pandemic.  It also seems like he lost his drive and passion and just wants to be lazy. 

I did that too and I’m a fully formed adult. I can relate. It was seeing my screen time numbers on my phone that made me realize that I do, in fact, have time for a job. It has to be a really weird time to be managing high school. My daughter teaches at a tech magnet school and the freshman we’re really struggling with accountability. Their entry to high school was not kind; especially for the ones who are externally motivated. 

[Rachel]

35 minutes ago, fairfarmhand said:

Civil is tons of work. No part time jobs, no extracurriculars.

That makes sense. 
 

I don’t think any discipline of engineering would be considered an easy degree. 

[Rachel]

10 hours ago, Melissa in Australia said:

Do the faculties at University have open days with info over there?

Yes. They also encourage campus visits. 

[TechWife]

22 hours ago, Teaching3bears said:

He used to adore math and spend all his spare time doing math.  Now he does not and gets mad if I encourage him to do math but he is still doing really well in math in school and finds it easy, probably because of all the self-teaching he did before. He prefers calculation over problem-solving.  
Unfortunately, he is not thinking seriously about career choices right now.   Although he is doing moderately well in school he seems to be fueled by a fear of failing more than anything.   He has been turned off by the expectations of high school and says he wants an easy job where you don’t have to work hard.  I am hoping he will find his passion for math again.  

Please get him some serious counseling so that he can overcome this fear. If it persists, it will affect every area of his life. He won’t be able to explore careers with any kind of clarity if fear and the (probably) resulting lack of desire is his mindset. Fear of failure prevents people from “rising to the occasion.” Finding a career that he would be successful at likely seems like an unrealistic goal to him.

Likewise, if he doesn’t want to work hard, a STEM focused education and career are out of reach for him. That goes for almost any other career path as well. Even jobs that look “easy” from the outside have components that are difficult.

From personal experience/observation - video games offer high reward for comparatively little work and no risk. If he’s spending a lot of time gaming, that may need to be addressed as well. 

I think this is much more important than career exploration. I would table any discussion of careers/college until the fear and resulting thought patterns are addressed. 

[TechWife]

15 hours ago, Teaching3bears said:

Hmm … are all the streams of engineering this much work?  I think he likes to focus on one thing.  That is why I think math might be better.  I don’t know why he turned against it.  

Yes. Engineering is hard. Math is hard. Hours upon hours spent in class, labs, study groups, independent study. That’s why they make the $$$$ - they work hard. 

[Arcadia]

2 hours ago, fairfarmhand said:

Civil is tons of work. No part time jobs, no extracurriculars.

I graduated from civil engineering, just wasn’t aiming for dean’s list 🤣 My husband was from electrical engineering and gave tuition to his neighbors’ high school age kids, he lived near the university.

Summers should be filled with co-op, internships or summer jobs though because that builds the resume. 

[gardenmom5]

6 hours ago, Teaching3bears said:

He did do precalculus.  He was self-teaching and had some gaps.  He had a tutor help with the gaps.  That kind of fizzled during the pandemic.  It also seems like he lost his drive and passion and just wants to be lazy. 

are you sure that he "just wants to be lazy"?   Maybe he's feeling pushed in a direction he doesn't want to go, or a pace faster than he's comfortable with, or he has too many holes and is feeling overwhelmed.

5 hours ago, fairfarmhand said:

Civil is tons of work. No part time jobs, no extracurriculars.

I think that's pretty much all engineering.

Ds was working for a PhD student as part of his jr research, and the doctoral student begged him to stay over the summer.  "i need to work for money" - so, the doctoral student got him grand/scholarship and he spent his summer working for him doing research.

at the time, he also had untreated ADD.  His advisor noticed a difference after he started getting treated.

4 hours ago, TechWife said:

Yes. Engineering is hard. Math is hard. Hours upon hours spent in class, labs, study groups, independent study. That’s why they make the $$$$ - they work hard. 

and they have fun.   1ds was here yesterday sharing what he's doing.  He loves what he's doing.   

He took a class on Saturday in company, that included sales/marketing types and he just wanted to bash his head against the wall at their density.  "no - you can't *just put compartments in the floor, or guarantee space for every passenger's suitcase in overhead bins*" thunk.

[catz]

I also wanted to say, he's 15.  I have a 21 year old son who was always quite academically advanced but floundered through puberty, changed his mind so many times on paths/interest, lagged a bit on executive function, and was not who I would have called highly motivated late middle school/early high school.   He hit algebra like at age 10.   Academically I could have graduated him early, but that really only makes sense for kids who drag you there especially when you're homeschooling and you can keep your kid happy, engaged and learning and working on those social, EF, maturity things on the side.  You only get one childhood.

If he's anxious right now, deal with that.  But also, he's still quite yonung.  He should have a few more years to ponder and reinvent himself.  If talking about careers right now isn't working, put in on the back burner for a bit.  Encourage him to get a job and find some extra curriculars, have a social life, build some relationships.  My kid between 15 and 18/19 changed SO much.  He is a junior in college now with 2 rigorous majors, makes the deans list most the time and is on track to graduate with both majors in 4 and is adulting in MANY ways.  He has tripped up at points with organization and EF, but not in atypical ways for a college student.  

I know kids that have gotten pushed down a particular career path too early and have regretted it.  If he is saying he doesn't want to work too hard in college, that just sounds like plain ole immature thought processes at play and maybe he needs some time and space.

Edited May 9, 2022 by catz

[Clarita]

As much as I knew what I wanted to be when I grew up before high school (engineer more specifically B'elanna Torres from Star Trek Voyager) and finished deciding what my major was going to be sophomore year of high school. I didn't really talked to my parents about it. I think they found out I was planning on majoring in EE my junior year of high school while we were filling out my applications.

As much as I believe parents know a lot about their children and have more intuition about them then school officials and such, sometimes their perception of laziness in their teens is not quite true. My own parents thought I was quite lazy K-12. Part of that was I didn't really ask for their help on picking careers (my mom speaks her mind and I didn't want her to naysay my dreams). 

I know I said a bunch of things about my major being hard, but as a teenager I picked Electrical Engineering because I thought it was the easiest major for me. I was good at math (bad at geometry and pre-Calculus was a breath of fresh air). And really like physics (I did HS physics and it wasn't a slog and astrophysics was really interesting). I didn't enjoy writing and getting kicked out of AP English crossed out humanities for me. I liked designing things (at the time mostly this was making really bad drawings of ball gowns and Sim houses). I knew I couldn't go into clothing design because I was bad at drawing and sewing. So designing, physics and math landed me with ME vs. EE and I knew where the EE jobs were. 

This is the mind of a 11-17 year old. Don't be too hard on your son. Even though everyone else doesn't think it's an "easy" career/job. You know I still do to this day. I love designing things and I'm a lot better at math and physics than I am at drawing and sewing. So, it's hard work for someone whose heart isn't in it, but it's not as hard of work for someone who likes doing it. (Long hours definitely going to happen, but it's more like the time flew past you more than drudgery.) 

[Teaching3bears]

The more I read on this thread, the more I think that engineering might not be right for him.  I want him to have time for fun.  Also, he never liked legos and it’s odd for any child not to like lego.  He used to love math so much that I think it would be less work for him because he enjoyed it so much.  I am thinking he should look into math, business and computer science.  

[freesia]

10 minutes ago, Teaching3bears said:

The more I read on this thread, the more I think that engineering might not be right for him.  I want him to have time for fun.  Also, he never liked legos and it’s odd for any child not to like lego.  He used to love math so much that I think it would be less work for him because he enjoyed it so much.  I am thinking he should look into math, business and computer science.  

You know what? He’s 15. Don’t worry about figuring this out for him. Both my boys were very lazy at 15. They are both hard workers at 17 and 21. It all turned around after 16–gradually, but they got it together. He’s going to have to work at something, but you don’t have to figure it out now and he doesn’t either. I thought ds1 would end up in STEM and I was correct, but he took a hard turned into humanities from age 16-20 and then ended up in tech. I never ever could have imagined it. 
 

DS2 is planning engineering. I don’t know yet if he will stick with it. Dh didn’t. But again, he’ll figure it out. 

I am completely confused about the math discussion. Isn’t he doing Algebra, Geometry, Algebra 2, PreCalculus (including trig) and then Calculus???

DS does robotics with FTC. Maybe that’s an option for your ds. 

[catz]

24 minutes ago, Teaching3bears said:

The more I read on this thread, the more I think that engineering might not be right for him.  I want him to have time for fun.  Also, he never liked legos and it’s odd for any child not to like lego.  He used to love math so much that I think it would be less work for him because he enjoyed it so much.  I am thinking he should look into math, business and computer science.  

Comp Sci and math degrees at least the BS paths at our flagship universities have very similar class progressions the first couple years to engineering.  I totally agree you have to find your path and what you find interesting to work on, but I wouldn't call them less rigorous majors than engineering paths necessarily.  Pursuing a BA at a LAC might be considerably different that way depending on requirements but that can change at least initial career trajectories/options.  (I have a BS math/comp sci and graduated from an engineering school, DH is also a comp sci person and also still regularly is on hiring teams for new grads with engineering/CS/Math/Phsy backgrounds).  

But regardless, he is 15.  It's absolutely fine if this takes a while to figure out or if he just doesn't even want to think about it yet.  

I am also confused on math progression.  I'm also not clear if he is in school or homeschooling?  I will say we followed a typical progression with my mathy kid but he never wanted to DE.  We took all sorts of rabbit trails and focused on problem solving at times.  And you know what?  Got A's through college math into higher level stuff.  It was completely fine not rushing ahead.  

 

Edited May 10, 2022 by catz

[Drama Llama]

58 minutes ago, Teaching3bears said:

The more I read on this thread, the more I think that engineering might not be right for him.  I want him to have time for fun.  Also, he never liked legos and it’s odd for any child not to like lego.  He used to love math so much that I think it would be less work for him because he enjoyed it so much.  I am thinking he should look into math, business and computer science.  

It's not odd for a child not to like lego.  I have one who didn't, and two who did.  But if I had to predict, my lego lover is my future engineer.  My non-lover-of-lego will do something else.  

[gardenmom5]

7 minutes ago, Baseballandhockey said:

It's not odd for a child not to like lego.  I have one who didn't, and two who did.  But if I had to predict, my lego lover is my future engineer.  My non-lover-of-lego will do something else.  

and my "will spend on lego" is an accountant.  The engineer - no way.  The one who liked lego best majored in classics (went into computers.)

sil's dh didn't play with lego - but liked erector sets.  He's an EE.  their son didn't play much with lego - he's a computer engineer.

One young man I know who did A LOT of lego (back before 'sets') - has a doctorate in music.

[Rachel]

1 hour ago, Teaching3bears said:

The more I read on this thread, the more I think that engineering might not be right for him.  I want him to have time for fun.  Also, he never liked legos and it’s odd for any child not to like lego.  He used to love math so much that I think it would be less work for him because he enjoyed it so much.  I am thinking he should look into math, business and computer science.  

It may be that engineering isn’t right for him. But he’s 15 so you have plenty of time. 
 

My 14 year old only has a vague idea of what type of future career he will have. I can see him being an engineer. But he’s also a talented pianist and he loves making stop motion videos. I think at their ages they don’t even know all the types of jobs available and it’s good to expose them to different things. 

[Teaching3bears]

He will be 16 in a few months and in a year and a half he will have to start applying.  Also, if he takes math or business he does not have to take a bunch of science courses in high school.  
He is not homeschooled.  He does regular math in school but before COVID he was teaching himself algebra and calculus at the college level.  he would also try to figure out his own math theories and he was fascinated with imaginary numbers.  

[freesia]

He will mature a lot this year. He should just keep taking math and science. 

[Teaching3bears]

26 minutes ago, freesia said:

He will mature a lot this year. He should just keep taking math and science. 

I hope he matures.  He seemed to go backward or stagnate these past couple of years.  maybe due to COVID.

[catz]

2 minutes ago, Teaching3bears said:

I hope he matures.  He seemed to go backward or stagnate these past couple of years.  maybe due to COVID.

Has he grown a lot physically?   Gone through puberty?  Seriously my son really started to settle in and mature once he had stayed at the same height for a while. This isn’t unusual.  

[Teaching3bears]

Thanks for giving me hope

[TechWife]

7 minutes ago, Teaching3bears said:

I hope he matures.  He seemed to go backward or stagnate these past couple of years.  maybe due to COVID.

That's the nature of puberty. I wouldn't be too quick to attribute his changes to COVID. Kids develop asynchronously. Puberty seems like one step forward, two steps back in a lot of ways.

[regentrude]

2 hours ago, Teaching3bears said:

  I want him to have time for fun.  Also, he never liked legos and it’s odd for any child not to like lego.  He used to love math so much that I think it would be less work for him because he enjoyed it so much.  I am thinking he should look into math, business and computer science.  

1. Engineering students have fun. I teach at an engineering school and can assure you they do.

2. Not liking lego is not odd. Neither of mine cared one bit for lego. Both ended up with physics degrees.

3. Computer science major is a ton of work. So is math. 

A person who loves math will gladly embrace the work. You make it sound as if working hard in college is somehow a bad thing. I worked my butt off as a student, and had a fabulous time. 

[Clarita]

For Computer Science, there is this puzzle thing that my husband does during advent called Advent of Code. The competition part happens during advent (Christmas season), but they have the puzzles from past years up. I'm usually happy just being a wall to bounce ideas off of or just kind of get to the point where I'd tell my husband where I would go with the problem. He seems to code up simple algorithms on the computer to solve the problems. The main point is to figure out how to solve the problem.

If he likes it computer science might be his thing.

[Clarita]

Oh yes if it's not obvious. He may still enjoy computer science if he doesn't run off and complete all the advent of code puzzles. Even if he is just like ooo these are kind of fun and interesting, but get frustrated with solving it. He will learn the algorithms and ways to solve these puzzles in college. As for the competition, he would be competing against people working in the field and making enough to support families (likelihood is he isn't going to place well in the competition, because if he does well that is something to be very proud of). In case it's not obvious this would be to wet his appetite.

[Quarter Note]

On 5/6/2022 at 7:14 PM, Quarter Note said:

I got my degree in Engineering Field A, but made every penny of my engineering money in Engineering Field B.  My employer didn't care that my degree was in a different field.  

 

Quoting myself just for reference…

@Teaching3bears, I'm coming back to clarify my post since it may have given exactly the opposite impression than I meant it to, and it's bothered me ever since. I wanted your son to feel encouraged that picking a major in college doesn't mean that he would be pigeon-holed for life. College is a time of growing in self-awareness. The major that one chooses as a freshman may not fit the student as a senior. But I certainly didn't mean to give the impression that a degree is useless. 

In my case, I lovedlovedLOVED my college engineering major. I also lovedlovedLOVED my engineering career in a different specialty. They both scratched different itches, and that's okay. If I could do college all over again, knowing the career I would end up with… I would still do exactly the same thing, because my major was so interesting!

It does help to have a certain mentality to study engineering, the mentality that says, “Statics is fun!  Vector calculus is fun!  Heat transfer is fun!” (All of which are true, by the way. 🙂 ) 

But it sounds like your son is just not in that place, or at least not right now. He will eventually find out what the spark is that will inspire him.

My best wishes to him! Having to figure out what to do when you grow up is hard, especially when you have the pressure of being a pre-college teenager. He sounds like a really good kid.  I'm sure that he will do well when he gets to college.