We need a little help, OY

[DawnM]

As most of you know, Dad has moved in with us, when he moved in with us, he donated his car.  It was a big ordeal, notary came out to the house, etc....the organization gave my dad an huge envelope with all the donation receipts, etc....all notorized and signed.

Dad's fall has made his dementia worse and now he can't find it.   He says he spent 6 hours looking.   I don't doubt it since DH and I went down to go through his files and he has files printed on a dot matrix printer from 1980 in those files.   SO MUCH STUFF.

Anyway, now the state is wanting proof that he doesn't own the car, or he faces huge fines for not having insurance or having it registered.

We are going to look again this weekend and I plan to call the insurance company and state vehicle place and explain that my elderly father with dementia lost the paperwork, but I don't know what else to do.   The place we donated it says they gave it all to us and don't have any other files on it.   I may have to call them again and beg for them to recreate them, but I don't have the plate number or anything anymore and I don't think they do either.

Any suggestions other than what I have already done or what I plan to do?   

[history-fan]

His insurance company may still have the vin number. Maybe the notary has a record of the purpose for the notary signature. 

[DawnM]

3 minutes ago, history-fan said:

His insurance company may still have the vin number. Maybe the notary has a record of the purpose for the notary signature. 

I have the vin.   I also have the tag number.   I don't know what a tag number is?   Is it the license plate?

And it also asks for the serial number.   I have no idea what that is.

[history-fan]

Vin number is a cars serial number- other vehicles use term serial number and I believe tag number is the license plate letters number combo.

[prairiewindmomma]

The insurance company will have the Vehicle Identification Number (VIN) which is known as the serial number as some parts of the US.

The county who issues the license plate should have the plate/tag number. 

If the donation place is claiming it as a charitable donation, there was some value attached when they resold the vehicle and claimed the income. This would be true even if they consigned it for processing. They have to have something in their records or they are committing fraud.

[prairiewindmomma]

If you think he is enough of a hoarder to hold onto his receipts for paying the property taxes on the vehicle in his income taxes you might check in his 2020 state income tax file. I know my elderly relative does so. 
 

Good luck! You might also use this opportunity to quietly create a box of his most important papers that you hold onto for him (and put out of his reach). 

[DawnM]

8 minutes ago, prairiewindmomma said:

If you think he is enough of a hoarder to hold onto his receipts for paying the property taxes on the vehicle in his income taxes you might check in his 2020 state income tax file. I know my elderly relative does so. 
 

Good luck! You might also use this opportunity to quietly create a box of his most important papers that you hold onto for him (and put out of his reach). 

No, it isn't in his tax returns, with the taxes the way they are now, it isn't worth the deductions as he won't get to the $25k or whatever it is in charitable contributions and deductions.

Yeah, we are going to pull some things out, although not really sure what to pull at this point.

[DawnM]

12 minutes ago, prairiewindmomma said:

The insurance company will have the Vehicle Identification Number (VIN) which is known as the serial number as some parts of the US.

The county who issues the license plate should have the plate/tag number. 

If the donation place is claiming it as a charitable donation, there was some value attached when they resold the vehicle and claimed the income. This would be true even if they consigned it for processing. They have to have something in their records or they are committing fraud.

Then we have all of that.   The form with the fines lists the VIN and license plate number.

I don't think they sold the vehicle, they were going to allow people in their organization to use it but not own it.   They have people who come in for months at a time who need a vehicle to drive around before they go back overseas.

[DawnM]

20 minutes ago, history-fan said:

Vin number is a cars serial number- other vehicles use term serial number and I believe tag number is the license plate letters number combo.

So, the paperwork says Vin and License plate from the same state the online says serial number and tag number.   GRRR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Clarita]

38 minutes ago, DawnM said:

We are going to look again this weekend and I plan to call the insurance company and state vehicle place and explain that my elderly father with dementia lost the paperwork, but I don't know what else to do.   The place we donated it says they gave it all to us and don't have any other files on it.   I may have to call them again and beg for them to recreate them, but I don't have the plate number or anything anymore and I don't think they do either.

Call the DMV (dept of motor vehicles) or whatever agency that's trying to levy the fines. When my mom sold her car to the neighbor who didn't complete the paperwork with the DMV, the DMV threatened her for not registering the vehicle. When she told them the story they said she can ignore it because the punishment is them taking the car away (which doesn't matter to her anyways). 

[DawnM]

10 minutes ago, Clarita said:

Call the DMV (dept of motor vehicles) or whatever agency that's trying to levy the fines. When my mom sold her car to the neighbor who didn't complete the paperwork with the DMV, the DMV threatened her for not registering the vehicle. When she told them the story they said she can ignore it because the punishment is them taking the car away (which doesn't matter to her anyways). 

Ok, this paperwork says $5 fine per day, retroactive to July 16th if he doesn't comply.

[Scarlett]

2 minutes ago, DawnM said:

Ok, this paperwork says $5 fine per day, retroactive to July 16th if he doesn't comply.

Have you called the Dmv?

[Clarita]

Although it sounds like DMV or whatever vehicle agency was not notify ever of the sale. This should be a form your father and the charity filled out together. Someone should have turned this in to the DMV. Seems like charity is claiming this should have been him? You can ask them to confirm.

If not maybe you could just ask them to fill another one out. I only know when it's selling a car to another individual but in that case in my state a notary was not necessary. 

[katilac]

1 hour ago, DawnM said:

The place we donated it says they gave it all to us and don't have any other files on it.   

No, that's ridiculous, call and go up the ladder. A non-profit has to track donations, period. 

[Annie G]

1 hour ago, DawnM said:

Then we have all of that.   The form with the fines lists the VIN and license plate number.

I don't think they sold the vehicle, they were going to allow people in their organization to use it but not own it.   They have people who come in for months at a time who need a vehicle to drive around before they go back overseas.

The place you donated it to is supposed to change the title and registration from your dad’s name to theirs. They’re the ones who should be in trouble! I’d be barking at them night and day until they recreated the documentation. They can do that- you have the information to allow them to redo the donation paperwork.  They need to do the right thing here. 

[fraidycat]

1 hour ago, DawnM said:

Then we have all of that.   The form with the fines lists the VIN and license plate number.

I don't think they sold the vehicle, they were going to allow people in their organization to use it but not own it.   They have people who come in for months at a time who need a vehicle to drive around before they go back overseas.

If they are using it, they should have registered it in their name. They would have needed the documentation of sale/donation/transfer of property to do so. If they did not register it, or took it to another state to register, you need to find out if they are driving it without proper proof of ownership and either repo it, or make sure it is properly registered so your dad isn't held liable. 
 

If they DID register it in your state, the DMV should have the VIN registered to them and that should be proof enough that the car is no longer in your Dad's possession as it is right there in their system!

[prairiewindmomma]

In this state, I can report a sale/transfer of vehicle as the seller/donator without needing the buyer to do paperwork as well. It’s like a title disclaimer, and frees me of liability even if the new owner is slow to register the title change. I can even do it online.  The past few states we lived in don’t have that, but it’s worth looking to see if you can. Perhaps all that is missing is that form?

Edited October 1, 2021 by prairiewindmomma

[BusyMom5]

These things vary by state,  but whomever the car was given to should have retitled it in order to insure it.  If they have not titled it, I'd assume they have not licensed or insured it.  They should have the paperwork on file, where he signed that he gave it away, snd use that to not owe lots of taxes (i know this varies by state, too- ours charges sales tax on used vehicles,  so would require a bill of sale for like $1).

[Clarita]

3 hours ago, DawnM said:

Ok, this paperwork says $5 fine per day, retroactive to July 16th if he doesn't comply.

You should ask DMV directly. The paperwork probably assumes you have possession of the vehicle and are using it. 

[gardenmom5]

5 hours ago, DawnM said:

Then we have all of that.   The form with the fines lists the VIN and license plate number.

I don't think they sold the vehicle, they were going to allow people in their organization to use it but not own it.   They have people who come in for months at a time who need a vehicle to drive around before they go back overseas.

was the title transfered?  SOMEONE has ownership over the car.  Your father donated it to them - THEY own it now.

If it was going to continue to be driving - THEY should have registered the car and paid insurance/licensing/etc on the car.  That they didn't - which is why the state is going after your father - implies they are committing fraud.

[BlsdMama]

11 hours ago, Scarlett said:

Have you called the Dmv?

This. Start there. 

[DawnM]

Thanks.   I will try to call the DMV later today.   I am busy until around 1pm and need time because it is difficult to get a hold of the DMV.   

[TheReader]

12 hours ago, DawnM said:

So, the paperwork says Vin and License plate from the same state the online says serial number and tag number.   GRRR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

These should be the same thing, although I get that it's confusing to have them called different things. 

Vin = serial number; license plate = tag number

[BusyMom5]

I've thought about this all night,  and this is what I would do-

1. Call the place it was donated again and tell them you need proof they licensed an insured it, or you will turn them in for defrauding an elderly man with dementia and will consider it stolen property. Explain that if they do not have the paperwork faxed or e-mailed to you by noon, showing they have licensed, insured, and registered the title in the organization name, you will assume your father is still the legal owner and will be there to pick up said vehicle at 3:00 this afternoon or be reporting it stolen of they do not give it to you.  I am very afraid they have not done so, and if your father is the legal owner, he could be liable for accidents.  If you do get the car back...

2.  You can file for a lost title with the DMV if its still in his name.  Get possession if it, add to your insurance, and get a new title so that you can properly sell it.  

 

[prairiewindmomma]

Also, the notary should have a record of the date of transfer. They are typically required by state law to keep a journal record of what they witness.  If you had them to you home and they were acting officially, they were witness to the signatures of the transaction.  That actually is to your advantage in dealing with the state.

[Scarlett]

10 hours ago, prairiewindmomma said:

In this state, I can report a sale/transfer of vehicle as the seller/donator without needing the buyer to do paperwork as well. It’s like a title disclaimer, and frees me of liability even if the new owner is slow to register the title change. I can even do it online.  The past few states we lived in don’t have that, but it’s worth looking to see if you can. Perhaps all that is missing is that form?

I found out about this provision AFTER we sold a car to some people who did not retag it.  I got a call from the impound yard in a local city saying it was there.  It had been wrecked/totaled and abandoned.  

[gardenmom5]

1 hour ago, BusyMom5 said:

I've thought about this all night,  and this is what I would do-

1. Call the place it was donated again and tell them you need proof they licensed an insured it, or you will turn them in for defrauding an elderly man with dementia and will consider it stolen property. Explain that if they do not have the paperwork faxed or e-mailed to you by noon, showing they have licensed, insured, and registered the title in the organization name, you will assume your father is still the legal owner and will be there to pick up said vehicle at 3:00 this afternoon or be reporting it stolen of they do not give it to you.  I am very afraid they have not done so, and if your father is the legal owner, he could be liable for accidents.  If you do get the car back...

2.  You can file for a lost title with the DMV if its still in his name.  Get possession if it, add to your insurance, and get a new title so that you can properly sell it.  

 

Notify them in writing (with proof - e.g. delivery signature receipt as well as voice.  But that should shake the tree.

you can go ahead and file for a lost title with the DMV right now.   If they didn't title it themselves (why else would the state be contacting you), it will put you ahead on resolving this.  Dh had to get a lost title before we could sell his mother's car. It seems like it took a few weeks?  (he was grumbling about the paperwork, and I was cleaning the thing out. )

1 hour ago, prairiewindmomma said:

Also, the notary should have a record of the date of transfer. They are typically required by state law to keep a journal record of what they witness.  If you had them to you home and they were acting officially, they were witness to the signatures of the transaction.  That actually is to your advantage in dealing with the state.

If a notary is acting as a notary - they are acting officially, regardless of where they are performing the service.

[BusyMom5]

My parents have sold cars my entire life, so I've heard a lot of stories.   My sister also gave a car to a friend in need.  They never titled or insured it, and it ended up in an impound lot.   Its a big mess!  That's why I wouldn't delay- every time someone drives that car its putting your dad at risk.  I'd be very firm- you need confirmation they did their part, or you take the car back.   

At this point they probably would owe fines for not having it licensed and insured in so many days.  If this is the case, do not reward them by resigning stuff!  Just take the car back.