Regeneron

[Pen]

57 minutes ago, Wildcat said:

Huh. I probably misunderstood something you wrote about looking up insurance stuff on your system, then. It was a several months ago so there is no way for me to find it. I just remember thinking that Publix might have been able to find our insurance in their system through this magical database that I thought you had mentioned and even mentioned it to my dh. LOL.

Apologies.

I don’t have my own past posts memorized so there could be something that led to your thinking this that was my post but I do not know what it would be either especially not if from months back

 

the closest I can think of might have to do with a whistle blower who had access to Medicare records and found 45,000 deaths within 48 hours of a vax iirc 

 

I don’t know what Publix is

 

i am checking in on Wtm from time to time especially if someone tags me like you did, but am not really very active here at this stage 

[Pawz4me]

1 hour ago, Wildcat said:

That's what I thought I read but I wonder how that translates to grocery stores and pharmacies? And, wouldn't that show up on my insurance page as an EOB charge or something? I thought I remembered @Pen mention something about them being able to access a database of all insurances or something but we don't see anything on our page.

It's not like I'm bothered by it. This is serious stuff and I think paying for this as a country is the right thing to do, but I'm just curious by nature and I like to know things. LOL

Somebody did post that. I remember it. 

(Just so you know your memory isn't totally betraying you!)

[Wildcat]

3 hours ago, Pen said:

I don’t have my own past posts memorized so there could be something that led to your thinking this that was my post but I do not know what it would be either especially not if from months back

 

the closest I can think of might have to do with a whistle blower who had access to Medicare records and found 45,000 deaths within 48 hours of a vax iirc 

 

I don’t know what Publix is

 

i am checking in on Wtm from time to time especially if someone tags me like you did, but am not really very active here at this stage 

No, it wasn't a whistleblower thing. I have no idea what I read, then.

Publix is a grocery store in the southeast.

[Wildcat]

3 hours ago, Pawz4me said:

Somebody did post that. I remember it. 

(Just so you know your memory isn't totally betraying you!)

Thank you! I've read so much over the last several months that it all runs together and I did start to doubt myself.

[ktgrok]

7 hours ago, Wildcat said:

Wait, what? I thought Desantis said all we needed was a positive test?

Like you, where we are there are no testing appointments available for several days. In fact, I checked a few places yesterday on a whim, and the first available was Sept 3.

I think there was miscommunication with some of the antibody clinics. One of them was in the news locally and they said you needed a doctor's prescription. Now, maybe it was the reporter who messed up? Or maybe it was a private clinic that had different rules? I don't know. 

but yes, at the clinics supported by the state, there is now a standing medical order. 

[Halftime Hope]

On 8/18/2021 at 11:32 AM, pinball said:

FYI…regeneron is indicated for vaccinated patients so everyone crying about the costs should consider the shame and guilt they are heaping on those who are vaccinated and now need more care.

Thank you! 

Nearly my entire circle of middle-aged and older people is vaxxed.  Many, many of them have been getting caught up in the delta wave we are having, because people have to eat, go to doctors, go to work, etc. And many are having rough cases of it. 

This is NOT an anti-masking, anti-vax crowd! We have been on church lockdown (online) for the better part of 18 months.  This is the South, and ventilation in buildings is the equivalent of ventilation in northern states in winter, i.e. non existent. 

That said, for this demographic -- again these are vaxxed people -- the antibody infusions are a godsend, as they are for younger people who are obese or sedentary. The FDA has even approved monoclonal antibody (MAB) infusions for selected post-exposure prophylaxis situations. For crying out loud, don't make this into a vax/not-vax thing.  It's not. 

I ask you what costs more?  Person getting long-COVID and needing attendant care for the rest of their lives, or person getting a one-time MAB infusion and then getting better because they were treated?  

 

Edited August 27, 2021 by Halftime Hope

[Halftime Hope]

On 8/18/2021 at 12:51 PM, mathnerd said:

@KSera, Thanks for posting this. I always thought that remdesivir helped the survival rates of extremely ill covid patients, especially the elderly. Perhaps, subconsciously, watching Trump walk away from the hospital (after taking that cocktail of drugs including remdesivir) gave me the idea that there are expensive but effective treatments. Reading this is an eye opener for me - that remdesivir might not always work.

Are there any studies about the effectiveness of remdesivir on hospitalized patients?

Mathnerd, remdesevir is largely ineffective and has high rates of adverse effects. It works best when given very early because it is anti-viral, but it is not given as an outpatient drug, so it can hardly ever be given when it will do the most good.  The viral stage of the disease is largely over by days 7-9; after that it's an inflammatory disease.  My husband's best friend (mid-50s) was given remdesevir on Day 10. He died. 

[KSera]

21 minutes ago, Halftime Hope said:

This is NOT an anti-masking, anti-vax crowd! We have been on church lockdown (online) for the better part of 18 months.  This is the South, and ventilation in our homes is the equivalent of ventilation in northern states in winter, i.e. non existent. 

That said, for this demographic -- again these are vaxxed people -- the antibody infusions are a godsend, as they are for younger people who are obese or sedentary. The FDA has even approved monoclonal antibody (MAB) infusions for selected post-exposure prophylaxis situations. For crying out loud, don't make this into a vax/not-vax thing.  It's not. 

I ask you what costs more?  Person getting long-COVID and needing attendant care for the rest of their lives, or person getting a one-time MAB infusion and then getting better because they were treated?  

 

I don't think anyone is speaking against vaxed people getting regeneron. I have only heard people speaking about anti-vax people saying people should get regeneron INSTEAD of the vaccine. And I didn't see anyone upset about paying for people to get regeneron either, for what it's worth.

And I'm very sorry to hear about your husband's best friend 😢. That's awful.

[Halftime Hope]

On 8/19/2021 at 12:48 PM, AbcdeDooDah said:

Do we know if they're all unvaccinated?

In my area, middle-aged and older people that I know who are vaccinated are having a pretty rough go with delta, and they are getting MAB treatments. Not going to the hospital. 

I don't know many unvaxxed, and the few I do have pretty much all had COVID before. They are slightly younger (5-10 years), doing better symptomatically than the folks who are vaxxed. (It's just a handful of people, and there's no way to know how bad their exposure was, just that they are getting what is assumed to be delta, and doesn't seem too bad if they've had COVID before.) 

[Halftime Hope]

On 8/19/2021 at 2:47 PM, Jean in Newcastle said:

At least the vaccinated ones exercised their brain. 

This is rude. Tell it to all the front line medical workers who have to make a really hard choice because their exposure is so high, their risk so great, yet they have real concerns over the adverse reaction rates, or perhaps the unknown long-term effects, or perhaps about ADE which is so well  associated with prior experimental coronavirus vaccine attempts that is it mentioned in Pfizer's informed consent training.

Don't you think many of them have researched and questioned and agonized over the decision?  

 

[Halftime Hope]

On 8/19/2021 at 4:52 PM, Katy said:

DH just forwarded me a story that when Texas goes to a level 2 emergency (predicted next week), they’ll start using vaccination status to triage. Those who have been vaccinated are much more likely to survive so they’ll get priority ICU beds. 

I feel like making this announcement widespread might do more to encourage vaccination than anything else. 

That was a preliminary consideration and it has been walked back after the medical profession recoiled in horror, largely because it would mean that so many historically underserved populations would be discriminated against if that one factor was the driving consideration.  The medical group that proposed it has since proposed a more holistic approach to triage, still considering the whole person and the various factors that predict survivability. 

 

[Halftime Hope]

On 8/21/2021 at 1:18 PM, WildflowerMom said:

See, this is the stuff that pisses me off.    If you're going to run your mouth, at the very least, get something right.  Otherwise shut your trap.   🤯

Quit talking about Fauci like that.  

[Halftime Hope]

12 hours ago, pinball said:

Fauci all over different outlets touting monoclonal antibody treatment

Fauci added that healthcare providers should also make more use of COVID-19 antibody treatments, including those from Eli Lilly & Co (LLY.N), Regeneron Pharmaceuticals (REGN.O), and GlaxoSmithKline Plc (GSK.L)/Vir Biotechnology Inc (VIR.O). Such treatments can reduce hospitalizations and deaths by as much as 85% if used early in infected people, he said.

Also…

Washington post headline:

“Monoclonal antibodies are free and effective against covid-19, but few people are getting them”

Someone better get on that “free” claim and set them straight, right?!? 

When was this?  There were only two MAB formulations that have an EUA the last time I looked about a week ago.  Regeron which is a combo of two different MABs and one that was single kind of antibody.  

[ktgrok]

7 hours ago, Halftime Hope said:

This is rude. Tell it to all the front line medical workers who have to make a really hard choice because their exposure is so high, their risk so great, yet they have real concerns over the adverse reaction rates, or perhaps the unknown long-term effects, or perhaps about ADE which is so well  associated with prior experimental coronavirus vaccine attempts that is it mentioned in Pfizer's informed consent training.

Don't you think many of them have researched and questioned and agonized over the decision?  

 

Well, if they are still talking about ADE, no I wouldn't' think they researched, or not well, since we have known for a while now that it isn't an issue with the Covid vaccine. And it they are front line workers with a lot of risk of infection, look around at their hospital and see how many are being treated for severe illness from Covid vs how many are being treated for severe illness from the vaccine, and can't quite figure out which is worse, I'd question their math skills as well. 

[Halftime Hope]

38 minutes ago, ktgrok said:

Well, if they are still talking about ADE, no I wouldn't' think they researched, or not well, since we have known for a while now that it isn't an issue with the Covid vaccine. And it they are front line workers with a lot of risk of infection, look around at their hospital and see how many are being treated for severe illness from Covid vs how many are being treated for severe illness from the vaccine, and can't quite figure out which is worse, I'd question their math skills as well. 

Historically, ADE takes awhile to manifest. But you've cherry-picked the one thing you think you can easily argue against. We will know true answers about ADE once we've live with these vaccines and seen how they perform over time. 

If I were a healthcare worker and most likely had high levels of natural immunity, I wouldn't want to take the additional risk of adverse effects, particularly for a vaccine whose protective effects are waning so spectacularly. 

 

[ktgrok]

19 minutes ago, Halftime Hope said:

Historically, ADE takes awhile to manifest. But you've cherry-picked the one thing you think you can easily argue against. We will know true answers about ADE once we've live with these vaccines and seen how they perform over time. 

If I were a healthcare worker and most likely had high levels of natural immunity, I wouldn't want to take the additional risk of adverse effects, particularly for a vaccine whose protective effects are waning so spectacularly. 

 

1. I addressed more than one thing. 

2. If I were a medical worker who THOUGHT I had antibodies, and that was part of my risk/benefit calculation, I'd get tested to KNOW if I had antibodies. Guessing one has immunity with no proof, and using that to make a medical decision is not something qualified medical experts should be doing. WE don't guess if a woman has rubella antibodies in pregnancy, we test them. 

[PeterPan]

2 hours ago, Halftime Hope said:

Historically, ADE takes awhile to manifest. But you've cherry-picked the one thing you think you can easily argue against. We will know true answers about ADE once we've live with these vaccines and seen how they perform over time. 

If I were a healthcare worker and most likely had high levels of natural immunity, I wouldn't want to take the additional risk of adverse effects, particularly for a vaccine whose protective effects are waning so spectacularly. 

 

Here's my problem. I'm reading every ugly thing I can find about the vaccines (reactions, things that go wrong) and none of it seems to jive with the "reasons" the health care providers are giving for not being vaccinated. I personally know one who says her game plan is ivermectin, but I spent time looking into ivermectin this morning and the research on it is complete crap, sorry. https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-02081-w  I'm not saying it can't help, but it's not clear from the research and has issues.  And right now poison controls are getting tons of calls from people taking (presumably high?) doses and getting sick. Total mess. 

https://vestibular.org/forum/dizziness/covid-19-vaccine-side-effects/paged/23/  I've spent hours reading through posts on this forum (you can see I'm up to page 23), and yes they're having reactions. My dad had a reaction to Pfizer and ended up in a wheelchair and rehab. But every time you dig in on these, there were pre-existing conditions, pre-existing injuries, something susceptible to INFLAMMATION. 

The reactions do not seem to be voodoo/mysterious but inflammation of pre-existing issues.

So back to my problem. I've had probably 5 concussions in the last 3 years. (Yes, you may ask, yes I'm getting treated.) And even the BIAA https://www.biausa.org/public-affairs/public-awareness/news/biaa-issues-guidance-on-covid-19-vaccines-for-persons-with-brain-injury  admits you will possibly flare up issues because a concussion is TBI which involves inflammation. I've done 70+ HBOT now to reduce inflammation. 

But if I DON'T do the vaccine (which I couldn't do when it came out because I was in the middle of the HBOT) then wouldn't, logically, my experience with covid (assuming I get it at some point, a logical assumption) ALSO cause inflammation? And isn't it possible/probably my inflammation at that point would be WORSE than if I had taken the vaccine, taken stuff or done treatments to calm down the inflammation, and then moved on?

I mean, I'm much more in the vaccine cautious camp and it doesn't seem like there's a whole lot of logic to what is being said. One nurse came on the news and FB in our area decrying the vaccines, and her reason? Get ready for it... She had worked the beds and MOST PEOPLE WENT HOME. Like smack me upside the head, a good friend just died and another literally has covid delirium and will never be the same, people are dying at home, but her STUPID PITIFUL ANNECDOTALLY BASED OPINION IS THAT EVERYTHING IS FINE AND THE HOSPITAL WILL SAVE YOU.

I swear, these health care providers just are not qualified in statistics or anything else apparently to sort out the complexity of these issues. I want to be as skeptical and cautious as the next person, but THEY'RE NOT TALKING SENSE. That is STUPID. Anecdotes are just that. To be willing to lose your job over that is astonishing. 

Whatever. My dad is finally finally improving from the inflammation of his back from his Pfizer shots btw. And as I'm reading online, I'm seeing a lot more discussion of use of things for inflammation. I think we have a long way to go in having approaches that actually make sense and fit data. It's pretty clear that the govt is NOT collecting adequately the reactions (plenty of people are saying that, my dad's didn't get reported), but it's also clear that there are pretty basic patterns. So if these health care workers were saying they had pre-existing conditions the vaccine would inflame, that would fit the data, that would make sense, and I'd be like Lord bless you, pass, whatever, I get it. That's where I am, wondering what makes sense. But to use anecdotal evidence and hope that ivermectin will be enough, I'm just, I don't know. 

Oh and the BIAA is saying delirium and psychosis for people with TBI who get covid. Really not cool. I'm looking at that and comparing that to 4-5 weeks of vertigo. Choice A delirium/psychosis, choice B temporary vertigo, choice C hope you never get the disease. What's rational there? Take a vaccine for a disease you might not get? Get sick from the vaccine because you might get more sick with the disease? 

It doesn't seem probable to think one would NEVER get it. That would be a fine gamble if it were going away, but it's clearly not going away.

Edited August 27, 2021 by PeterPan

[Pen]

16 hours ago, Wildcat said:

No, it wasn't a whistleblower thing. I have no idea what I read, then.

Publix is a grocery store in the southeast.

no idea then!

and no idea how Publix as a grocery store would enter in to medical records

total mystery to me

maybe whoever did post whatever it was will see your post and clarify 

[Dmmetler]

2 minutes ago, Pen said:

no idea then!

and no idea how Publix as a grocery store would enter in to medical records

total mystery to me

maybe whoever did post whatever it was will see your post and clarify 

Most locations have pharmacies. My teen got the second COVID shot at Kroger, which is also a grocery chain, because it was convienent. 

[ktgrok]

1 hour ago, PeterPan said:

Here's my problem. I'm reading every ugly thing I can find about the vaccines (reactions, things that go wrong) and none of it seems to jive with the "reasons" the health care providers are giving for not being vaccinated. I personally know one who says her game plan is ivermectin, but I spent time looking into ivermectin this morning and the research on it is complete crap, sorry. https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-02081-w  I'm not saying it can't help, but it's not clear from the research and has issues.  And right now poison controls are getting tons of calls from people taking (presumably high?) doses and getting sick. Total mess. 

https://vestibular.org/forum/dizziness/covid-19-vaccine-side-effects/paged/23/  I've spent hours reading through posts on this forum (you can see I'm up to page 23), and yes they're having reactions. My dad had a reaction to Pfizer and ended up in a wheelchair and rehab. But every time you dig in on these, there were pre-existing conditions, pre-existing injuries, something susceptible to INFLAMMATION. 

The reactions do not seem to be voodoo/mysterious but inflammation of pre-existing issues.

So back to my problem. I've had probably 5 concussions in the last 3 years. (Yes, you may ask, yes I'm getting treated.) And even the BIAA https://www.biausa.org/public-affairs/public-awareness/news/biaa-issues-guidance-on-covid-19-vaccines-for-persons-with-brain-injury  admits you will possibly flare up issues because a concussion is TBI which involves inflammation. I've done 70+ HBOT now to reduce inflammation. 

But if I DON'T do the vaccine (which I couldn't do when it came out because I was in the middle of the HBOT) then wouldn't, logically, my experience with covid (assuming I get it at some point, a logical assumption) ALSO cause inflammation? And isn't it possible/probably my inflammation at that point would be WORSE than if I had taken the vaccine, taken stuff or done treatments to calm down the inflammation, and then moved on?

I mean, I'm much more in the vaccine cautious camp and it doesn't seem like there's a whole lot of logic to what is being said. One nurse came on the news and FB in our area decrying the vaccines, and her reason? Get ready for it... She had worked the beds and MOST PEOPLE WENT HOME. Like smack me upside the head, a good friend just died and another literally has covid delirium and will never be the same, people are dying at home, but her STUPID PITIFUL ANNECDOTALLY BASED OPINION IS THAT EVERYTHING IS FINE AND THE HOSPITAL WILL SAVE YOU.

I swear, these health care providers just are not qualified in statistics or anything else apparently to sort out the complexity of these issues. I want to be as skeptical and cautious as the next person, but THEY'RE NOT TALKING SENSE. That is STUPID. Anecdotes are just that. To be willing to lose your job over that is astonishing. 

Whatever. My dad is finally finally improving from the inflammation of his back from his Pfizer shots btw. And as I'm reading online, I'm seeing a lot more discussion of use of things for inflammation. I think we have a long way to go in having approaches that actually make sense and fit data. It's pretty clear that the govt is NOT collecting adequately the reactions (plenty of people are saying that, my dad's didn't get reported), but it's also clear that there are pretty basic patterns. So if these health care workers were saying they had pre-existing conditions the vaccine would inflame, that would fit the data, that would make sense, and I'd be like Lord bless you, pass, whatever, I get it. That's where I am, wondering what makes sense. But to use anecdotal evidence and hope that ivermectin will be enough, I'm just, I don't know. 

Oh and the BIAA is saying delirium and psychosis for people with TBI who get covid. Really not cool. I'm looking at that and comparing that to 4-5 weeks of vertigo. Choice A delirium/psychosis, choice B temporary vertigo, choice C hope you never get the disease. What's rational there? Take a vaccine for a disease you might not get? Get sick from the vaccine because you might get more sick with the disease? 

It doesn't seem probable to think one would NEVER get it. That would be a fine gamble if it were going away, but it's clearly not going away.

Yup. My kids neuropsych says yup, vaccines in general can trigger a flare of AI stuff - anything related to inflammation. BUT the diseases willl do that too, and be worse. Plus, with a vaccine you know when they got it and can treat (wait 4 hours post shot to use anti inflammatory drugs) and monitor. With the infection you don't know until the immune system is already in high gear. 

[KSera]

1 hour ago, PeterPan said:

But if I DON'T do the vaccine (which I couldn't do when it came out because I was in the middle of the HBOT) then wouldn't, logically, my experience with covid (assuming I get it at some point, a logical assumption) ALSO cause inflammation? And isn't it possible/probably my inflammation at that point would be WORSE than if I had taken the vaccine, taken stuff or done treatments to calm down the inflammation, and then moved on?

 

Yes, your logic is correct and that is the way the cost benefit analysis clearly comes down. I shared this chart on a different thread yesterday, showing the relative risks of various adverse effects from Covid vs from the vaccine. It seems helpful those weighing their risks:

 

[Pen]

1 hour ago, PeterPan said:

Here's my problem. I'm reading every ugly thing I can find about the vaccines (reactions, things that go wrong) and none of it seems to jive with the "reasons" the health care providers are giving for not being vaccinated. I personally know one who says her game plan is ivermectin, but I spent time looking into ivermectin this morning and the research on it is complete crap, sorry. https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-02081-w  I'm not saying it can't help, but it's not clear from the research and has issues.  And right now poison controls are getting tons of calls from people taking (presumably high?) doses and getting sick. Total mess. 

https://vestibular.org/forum/dizziness/covid-19-vaccine-side-effects/paged/23/  I've spent hours reading through posts on this forum (you can see I'm up to page 23), and yes they're having reactions. My dad had a reaction to Pfizer and ended up in a wheelchair and rehab. But every time you dig in on these, there were pre-existing conditions, pre-existing injuries, something susceptible to INFLAMMATION. 

The reactions do not seem to be voodoo/mysterious but inflammation of pre-existing issues.

So back to my problem. I've had probably 5 concussions in the last 3 years. (Yes, you may ask, yes I'm getting treated.) And even the BIAA https://www.biausa.org/public-affairs/public-awareness/news/biaa-issues-guidance-on-covid-19-vaccines-for-persons-with-brain-injury  admits you will possibly flare up issues because a concussion is TBI which involves inflammation. I've done 70+ HBOT now to reduce inflammation. 

But if I DON'T do the vaccine (which I couldn't do when it came out because I was in the middle of the HBOT) then wouldn't, logically, my experience with covid (assuming I get it at some point, a logical assumption) ALSO cause inflammation? And isn't it possible/probably my inflammation at that point would be WORSE than if I had taken the vaccine, taken stuff or done treatments to calm down the inflammation, and then moved on?

I mean, I'm much more in the vaccine cautious camp and it doesn't seem like there's a whole lot of logic to what is being said. One nurse came on the news and FB in our area decrying the vaccines, and her reason? Get ready for it... She had worked the beds and MOST PEOPLE WENT HOME. Like smack me upside the head, a good friend just died and another literally has covid delirium and will never be the same, people are dying at home, but her STUPID PITIFUL ANNECDOTALLY BASED OPINION IS THAT EVERYTHING IS FINE AND THE HOSPITAL WILL SAVE YOU.

I swear, these health care providers just are not qualified in statistics or anything else apparently to sort out the complexity of these issues. I want to be as skeptical and cautious as the next person, but THEY'RE NOT TALKING SENSE. That is STUPID. Anecdotes are just that. To be willing to lose your job over that is astonishing. 

Whatever. My dad is finally finally improving from the inflammation of his back from his Pfizer shots btw. And as I'm reading online, I'm seeing a lot more discussion of use of things for inflammation. I think we have a long way to go in having approaches that actually make sense and fit data. It's pretty clear that the govt is NOT collecting adequately the reactions (plenty of people are saying that, my dad's didn't get reported), but it's also clear that there are pretty basic patterns. So if these health care workers were saying they had pre-existing conditions the vaccine would inflame, that would fit the data, that would make sense, and I'd be like Lord bless you, pass, whatever, I get it. That's where I am, wondering what makes sense. But to use anecdotal evidence and hope that ivermectin will be enough, I'm just, I don't know. 

Oh and the BIAA is saying delirium and psychosis for people with TBI who get covid. Really not cool. I'm looking at that and comparing that to 4-5 weeks of vertigo.
 

you are assuming you can predict what will happen. Maybe you can. Maybe not. 

1 hour ago, PeterPan said:

Choice A delirium/psychosis, choice B temporary vertigo, choice C hope you never get the disease. What's rational there? Take a vaccine for a disease you might not get? Get sick from the vaccine because you might get more sick with the disease? 
 

again the “choices” you are considering are  are as if you believe you have a magic crystal prediction ball.  I would tend to think you do not.

 

and you have left out other important possible outcomes such as you could both get Pfizer or Comirnaty or Moderna or whichever one seemed best to you  and get short term side effects or you could get long term side effects (or even be lucky and get no side effects ) - and despite the jab - you could still get the illness COVID-19. And could Also get very bad effects from the illness. Both your A and B, not one or the other choice is a potential outcome.  It isn’t necessarily either or because the vaccine is “leaky”. It is not giving sterilizing immunity against the illness. 
 

One consideration I would personally think about  is the mode of entry for the spike protein and whether I think I can Ward it off at the nasal passages and other usual entry points with whatever innate immunity and other tools I have, or whether entry of the vax stuff into muscle and thence to circulatory system seems better to deal with given the prior concussions or other concerns. 
 

I do not think there is a one size fits all answer and think you know your own body and own circumstances better than anyone else.   And of course what insurance coverage and help you have from your own doctors you know best. 

Each of us know our own bodies and circumstances better than others do, IMO.  (Perhaps there are a few exceptions to that for people of reduced mental capacity.) 
 

1 hour ago, PeterPan said:

It doesn't seem probable to think one would NEVER get it. That would be a fine gamble if it were going away, but it's clearly not going away.

 

[Spy Car]

18 minutes ago, Pen said:

Each of us know our own bodies and circumstances better than others do, IMO.  (Perhaps there are a few exceptions to that for people of reduced mental capacity.) 

You make this claim, yet every night on the news we see people who barely escaped death who now say just how wrong they got it.

The dead people who refused to vaccinate, we don't get to hear from (directly). But dang.

Bill

[Pen]

@PeterPan it’s also not necessarily either/or for what you choose to do. I gather that, for example, Dr Been (Mobeen Syed) chose both vax and also other prophylaxis protocols for himself, for example. As a physician he may be more exposed than you are and the risk benefit analysis will be personal for him as it is for each of us

btw despite my father not doing as well with the vax as yours, I think he did make the right choice for himself in his particular circumstances including living location and density, age, prior Vaccine experiences, personal health ...  

For myself even if someone ends up bedridden and may die like in my father’s case, if I know they took the vax in an informed way and with excellent awareness of the risks, I feel much better about it. Same for those choosing the opposite route. 

Edited August 27, 2021 by Pen

[Pen]

5 minutes ago, Spy Car said:

You make this claim, yet every night on the news we see people who barely escaped death who now say just how wrong they got 

3 minutes ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

How would we know how our own bodies will react to a novel virus? 

I don't think we know our bodies as well as we think. 

And that's not just about a novel virus. We can't see inside of our bodies. I think many of us learn over time how we react to common things, like a monthly period or seasonal allergies. But many other physical conditions don't happen frequently enough to build up that kind of knowledge. 

And then there's the problem of 'familiarity building contempt.' We ignore symptoms because we think we know what we don't know. Like someone not testing for COVID because it's allergy season. 

It's like the saying, he who represents himself has a fool for a client. Assuming that we know our own body can have disastrous results. I know the counterargument is that modern people are disconnected from their bodies. 

quoting feature whacky 

[Pen]

4 minutes ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

How would we know how our own bodies will react to a novel virus? 

I don't think we know our bodies as well as we think. 

And that's not just about a novel virus. We can't see inside of our bodies. I think many of us learn over time how we react to common things, like a monthly period or seasonal allergies. But many other physical conditions don't happen frequently enough to build up that kind of knowledge. 

And then there's the problem of 'familiarity building contempt.' We ignore symptoms because we think we know what we don't know. Like someone not testing for COVID because it's allergy season. 

It's like the saying, he who represents himself has a fool for a client. Assuming that we know our own body can have disastrous results. I know the counterargument is that modern people are disconnected from their bodies. 

I may be wrongly assuming that others have more insight than they do.

And sometimes I forget that having 3 generations before me in medicine and biological sciences meant that I was hearing/listening to discussions about health, science — and sometimes actively involved myself since ... my whole life. 
 

I am sorry if I gave you credit for knowledge and understanding that you do not have. 
 

 

[Pen]

4 minutes ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

<eyeroll>

I have a few generations in medicine in my family too, BTW, and I've spent my entire career in healthcare. 

Reminded again of the quote from President Lincoln. "He who represents himself has a fool for a client." He or she who treats themselves has a fool for a patient. 

The mark of education is knowing what you don't know. 

Eye roll back at you 🤪

[Dmmetler]

27 minutes ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

How would we know how our own bodies will react to a novel virus? 

I don't think we know our bodies as well as we think. 

And that's not just about a novel virus. We can't see inside of our bodies. I think many of us learn over time how we react to common things, like a monthly period or seasonal allergies. But many other physical conditions don't happen frequently enough to build up that kind of knowledge. 

And then there's the problem of 'familiarity building contempt.' We ignore symptoms because we think we know what we don't know. Like someone not testing for COVID because it's allergy season. 

It's like the saying, he who represents himself has a fool for a client. Assuming that we know our own body can have disastrous results. I know the counterargument is that modern people are disconnected from their bodies. 

One of the things my allergist told me last year was that if the symptoms are exactly what you expect, and they respond exactly the same way to medication, it's probably not COVID. If they are even slightly different, or don't respond in the same way, get tested. Even if it means you are testing every single week. I wish the home tests were better for presymptomatic testing, because honestly I'd feel most confident if I could test twice a week the way colleges do. Especially since monoclonal antibodies seem to work pretty well, I'd love to catch this in a "it's just a cold" stage vs the "I want to die" stage, which seems pretty common even among vaccinated folks with Delta.

Edited August 27, 2021 by Dmmetler

[Pen]

I came on this thread because I was tagged by @Wildcat - I also responded to @PeterPan because her post was right there when I returned because of another Wildcat quote of me and it looked legitimately enquiring and we have had fathers making similar decisions to each other.  
 

I am going to go back to my not banging my head against a wall approach. Carry back on without me 🦋

[ktgrok]

1 hour ago, Pen said:

 

Each of us know our own bodies and circumstances better than others do, IMO.  (Perhaps there are a few exceptions to that for people of reduced mental capacity.) 
 

 

NOPE. 

I guarantee a cardiac surgeon knows more about how my heart is put together and works than I do. A neurologist knows more about my brain than I do. An orthopedist knows way more about how the bones in my foot work than I do. 

This rejection of the idea of expertise and reliance on self knowledge is ridiculous. 

[Spy Car]

The bodies of unvaccinated individuals who have died from Covid in recent days who are stacked in refrigerator trucks acting as temporary morgues are pretty compelling evidence that many people who thought they were invincable were wrong.

Bill

 

 

Edited August 27, 2021 by Spy Car

[KSera]

1 hour ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

No, it's not about my lack of "knowledge and understanding" of my own body but instead that people assume they know more about their own bodies than they actually do. 

It always comes down to blaming the patient. They did something wrong that the self-satisfied alternative medicine believer didn't do.

No amount of people "knowing their body" is going to give them antibodies to a disease the first time they encounter it. I don't know what people think knowing their bodies is going to do to help them in this situation. I actually have a very well-honed awareness of my body--to the point I have had a couple medical providers comment on it. I can't imagine how this awareness would keep me safe if I contracted Covid. It might let me know I was in trouble and needed to get to a hospital sooner than other people would, but I'll take the safer way to immunity with a vaccine, please. I don't want to go to the hospital.

[KSera]

2 hours ago, Pen said:

you are assuming you can predict what will happen. Maybe you can. Maybe not. 

again the “choices” you are considering are  are as if you believe you have a magic crystal prediction ball.  I would tend to think you do not.

 

and you have left out other important possible outcomes such as you could both get Pfizer or Comirnaty or Moderna or whichever one seemed best to you  and get short term side effects or you could get long term side effects (or even be lucky and get no side effects ) - and despite the jab - you could still get the illness COVID-19. And could Also get very bad effects from the illness. Both your A and B, not one or the other choice is a potential outcome.  It isn’t necessarily either or because the vaccine is “leaky”. It is not giving sterilizing immunity against the illness. 
 

One consideration I would personally think about  is the mode of entry for the spike protein and whether I think I can Ward it off at the nasal passages and other usual entry points with whatever innate immunity and other tools I have, or whether entry of the vax stuff into muscle and thence to circulatory system seems better to deal with given the prior concussions or other concerns. 
 

I do not think there is a one size fits all answer and think you know your own body and own circumstances better than anyone else.   And of course what insurance coverage and help you have from your own doctors you know best. 

Each of us know our own bodies and circumstances better than others do, IMO.  (Perhaps there are a few exceptions to that for people of reduced mental capacity.) 
 

 

This post has been troubling me all morning. I think of how many interviews I've seen with loved ones of people who have died, or from people in the hospital, who were influenced by stuff like the above and didn't get vaccinated because of it. And so, so many have died because of it. To see someone coming to the point of having worked out that they are logically at much greater risk from the consequences of Covid than from the rarer and more mild consequences of the vaccine, and have someone to reply in a way to make them second guess that decision is so very disturbing to me. So many people have died that way 😢.

[PeterPan]

3 hours ago, KSera said:

Yes, your logic is correct and that is the way the cost benefit analysis clearly comes down. I shared this chart on a different thread yesterday, showing the relative risks of various adverse effects from Covid vs from the vaccine. It seems helpful those weighing their risks:

 

I saw this and spent time studying it, yes. It helped me realize that framing it as vaccine danger vs no vaccine/no danger was stupid. If you cede you’ll get it at some point the question is only how controlled you want the exposure. 

[PeterPan]

3 hours ago, Pen said:

It isn’t necessarily either or because the vaccine is “leaky”. It is not giving sterilizing immunity against the illness. 

I can come back to this when not on my phone. It’s a longer, interesting point that I’ve made peace with.

[PeterPan]

2 hours ago, Pen said:

As a physician he may be more exposed than you are and the risk benefit analysis will be personal for him as it is for each of us

I have to take it to cruise. Life is going on. I’m not going to hibernate or skip church indefinitely and my dh works in the community. EVERYONE has risk.

[PeterPan]

2 hours ago, Pen said:

we have had fathers making similar decisions to each other.  

That’s why I mentioned that my father is FINSLLY doing better. The lipid clearance on the vaccines is 4-5 months and the inflammation for some seems to be taking that long 

[PeterPan]

2 hours ago, Pen said:

and it looked legitimately enquiring and

I’m not sure if I’m inquiring or emoting lol. I’m SCARED. I think I’m potentially going to have inflammation that flares up my head problems and I don’t see away around it (if I want to cruise) nor do I think it’s entirely rational to skip it. 
 

Read tgat BIAA link. Covid delirium is possible if you have had TBI and get covid. I know someone with it right now and it’s AWFUL. So there’s risk both ways.

no given the asthma and recurrent pneumonia I had I don’t put money on my nostrils 😂

[PeterPan]

2 hours ago, Spy Car said:

The bodies of unvaccinated individuals who have died from Covid in recent days who are stacked in refrigerator trucks acting as temporary morgues are pretty compelling evidence that many people who thought they were invincable were wrong.

Bill

 

 

Bingo. Data point one people on floor waiting for MCAB (which had been my plan). Data point two, people in hospital regretting. Data point three, friend with delirium. *Most* of the vaccine reactions involve inflammation WHICH WOULD HAPPEN ANYWAY if you get covid, only worse yes?

[PeterPan]

Slight consideration. I suspect I have gotten turned down for social overtures lately. People want to hang with vaccinated people and may ask.

[PeterPan]

2 hours ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

How would we know how our own bodies will react to a novel virus? 

I don't think we know our bodies as well as we think. 

The health care workers who can’t give coherent evidence for their refusals THINK they their bodies. 
 

J think some people (elderly ) don’t care about dying. Find but that refusal costs $$$$$$ in ICU care.

[Jean in Newcastle]

Just now, PeterPan said:

Bingo. Data point one people on floor waiting for MCAB (which had been my plan). Data point two, people in hospital regretting. Data point three, friend with delirium. *Most* of the vaccine reactions involve inflammation WHICH WOULD HAPPEN ANYWAY if you get covid, only worse yes?

I have had bad inflammation and pain for over 30 years. I chose to get the vaccine (Pfizer if it matters) because having a controlled amount of vaccine is preferable to me over an uncontrolled amount of virus. I can’t predict your vaccine reaction but while I did go into a small flare after the first vaccination, I didn’t have a very bad reaction. 

[PeterPan]

38 minutes ago, KSera said:

This post has been troubling me all morning. I think of how many interviews I've seen with loved ones of people who have died, or from people in the hospital, who were influenced by stuff like the above and didn't get vaccinated because of it. And so, so many have died because of it. To see someone coming to the point of having worked out that they are logically at much greater risk from the consequences of Covid than from the rarer and more mild consequences of the vaccine, and have someone to reply in a way to make them second guess that decision is so very disturbing to me. So many people have died that way 😢.

I had been pursuing and planning the vaccine before my injury. I would have had to pause my treatment. I’m 75 sessions in and enough better to have some flex. I’m going to pause a week and I hope resuming will take down the inflammation from the vaccine. It’s all I know to do. And I’m taking my anxiety med. 😂😂😂

[PeterPan]

4 minutes ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

I have had bad inflammation and pain for over 30 years. I chose to get the vaccine (Pfizer if it matters) because having a controlled amount of vaccine is preferable to me over an uncontrolled amount of virus. I can’t predict your vaccine reaction but while I did go into a small flare after the first vaccination, I didn’t have a very bad reaction. 

Oh good thank you for sharing! I’m getting a hard time from people irl and don’t anticipate any sympathy if I have significant side effects. Sigh. 
 

Which is to say an outcome where it goes well would be nice !  My mother got moderna successfully so that’s what I’m doing. 

Edited August 27, 2021 by PeterPan

[PeterPan]

55 minutes ago, KSera said:

No amount of people "knowing their body" is going to give them antibodies to a disease the first time they encounter it. I don't know what people think knowing their bodies is going to do to help them in this situation. I actually have a very well-honed awareness of my body--to the point I have had a couple medical providers comment on it. I can't imagine how this awareness would keep me safe if I contracted Covid. It might let me know I was in trouble and needed to get to a hospital sooner than other people would, but I'll take the safer way to immunity with a vaccine, please. I don't want to go to the hospital.

Actually that’s the big thing driving me, not the cruising. I DO NOT want to be in a hospital with this . Multiple reasons but definitely not if avoidable . It’s the responsible thing to have a coherent plan. I have a son to take care of. 
 

and I’ve had pneumonia enough to know your strength doesn’t matter, it wins.

Edited August 27, 2021 by PeterPan

[PeterPan]

2 hours ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

Quoting this again because it illustrates so well the problem with alternative medicine. It always ends up turning back on the patient. 

No, it's not about my lack of "knowledge and understanding" of my own body but instead that people assume they know more about their own bodies than they actually do. 

It always comes down to blaming the patient. They did something wrong that the self-satisfied alternative medicine believer didn't do. 

But health isn't about blame. 

I know that mainstream medicine can be unpleasant. Doctors can be jerks. They don't always listen when they should. 

But this attitude is found much frequently in alternative medicine circles and it's toxic. 

I’m very crunchy and I would outright say it’s an attitude (tgat I admittedly share for reasons of my own experience) tgat doctors can’t be trusted. 
 

Tgat doctor walkout if Florida really mattered to me. I felt like it was COMPLTELY UNREASONABLE to ask them to save you in the ER and ICU (which is in reality many peoples plan when things go wrong ) and not be willing to do what they said before.

Im glad I researched nasty side effects btw. I could have gone in early or glibly and been really bitter when/if they happened. Now we have enough track record for treatments tgat I have (some) options and a game plan. I think crunchy people like to feel informed and in control and I at least have tgat a bit .

[PeterPan]

3 hours ago, Pen said:

again the “choices” you are considering are  are as if you believe you have a magic crystal prediction ball.  I would tend to think you do not.

There were hundreds of people sharing their adverse effects in tgat forum and the BIAA admits it. I’d be really pissed if I went in and flared up my concussive injuries and didn’t realize the extent to which it could happen. I’d much rather be pleasantly surprised . 

[Spy Car]

16 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

Oh good thank you for sharing! I’m getting a hard time from people irl and don’t anticipate any sympathy if I have significant side effects. Sigh. 
 

Which is to say an outcome where it goes well would be nice !  My mother got moderna successfully so that’s what I’m doing. 

Best wishes with the vaccinations.

Bill

[ktgrok]

If it matters, for vaccines my son's neuropsych says ibuprofen starting that evening (for Covid vaccine at least 4 hours post vaccine - no sooner) and continue 3-4 times a day for 3 days, plus push fluids, 

[Pen]

3 hours ago, PeterPan said:

I’m not sure if I’m inquiring or emoting lol. I’m SCARED. I think I’m potentially going to have inflammation that flares up my head problems and I don’t see away around it (if I want to cruise) nor do I think it’s entirely rational to skip it. 
 

Read tgat BIAA link. Covid delirium is possible if you have had TBI and get covid. I know someone with it right now and it’s AWFUL. So there’s risk both ways.

no given the asthma and recurrent pneumonia I had I don’t put money on my nostrils 😂

Yes. There is risk both ways.

 

 

I think for some people the risk benefit analysis more clearly tends to tip one way or the other. Or even where they are likely to do fine either way they choose. What you describe for yourself it sounds like a truly much more iffy position and more risk of problems both ways ... 

A person I know irl,  in somewhat that situation (not as many concussions, snd not as recent, but one really bad head injury resulting in icu, reconstruction surgery, etc) , afaik  let the easier travel prospect be likely  final decider toward vax. 
 

Afaik He knows he may have made what could turn out in the long run to have been a very bad maybe even fatal choice, but for now he was recently in more than one European country (he got “stuck” abroad when Covid hit) and is traveling in USA  and enjoying himself afaik.   I think for him knowledge that the TBI he had had could have itself been fatal has also affected how he decides things. 
 

It’s not my direction or my choice, and I think that vaccinated people carrying illness remains a problem, but so far he seems to be doing well with his decisions - and I hope you will similarly do well with yours too!