Thank you

[Drama Llama]

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Edited July 8, 2021 by BaseballandHockey

[fairfarmhand]

One thing I've found with my kids is that asking leading questions is more effective than lecturing or explaining.

And she's 11. Hormones hormones hormones.

She's part little girl and part big girl. 

So is she actually doing wrong things or is she just being dramatic when things don't go her way?

Does she get a chance to choose the game/activity from time to time? 

How old is your oldest? Could she be feeling the oddness of she's sometimes the oldest kid, like with her siblings, but in the mixed group, she's not the oldest and the other kids look up to your older son and like his ideas better? 

 

11 yo girls can be very hard.

[Insertcreativenamehere]

I have an 11 year old daughter and HORMONES is right. It is so hard sometimes! I don't have any advice but I imagine that those dynamics are very challenging!

[Spryte]

Hormones.  Yes.  I would probably plan some special activities with her, to give the younger kids time together and for her to feel included in stuff with me. Not sure that’s helpful for you.

[mommyoffive]

I have a tweenager girl now too.  I think in normal times they are hard, but with all she is dealing with it is so much extra for her.  I would spend some alone time with her and then have her do one on one time with your kids.   

[Drama Llama]

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Edited July 8, 2021 by BaseballandHockey

[Drama Llama]

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Edited July 8, 2021 by BaseballandHockey

[Lecka]

I would do that, especially if there was anything where she could be helpful to you.  
 

If the other kids will be getting along well — I think kids are often happy to play with other kids!

 

If it would cause a problem then I wouldn’t do it!!!!!!!

[happi duck]

21 minutes ago, BaseballandHockey said:

 

How do you handle physical aggression?  The mean verbal stuff seems worse than slugging someone.  Maybe the same system can apply.

(Sorry I quoted!)

Edited July 6, 2021 by happi duck

[Spryte]

Just now, BaseballandHockey said:

Like plan things for just me and her, and tell my kids, and her younger sisters they can't participate?  

 

Oh, no, nothing to deliberately exclude people, I don’t think that would help.  I might make an effort to sit and talk with her, or hang out, make the opportunity to have a real conversation. If there’s something you are doing by yourself then maybe say, “hey, I’m (insert whatever - chopping peppers for dinner tonight, whatever) want to help and hang out?” Or take her if you have to run an errand and grab a special drink while you’re out.  Or, if you are there (I’m not, pandemic-wise), ask her to go do something girly - like a pedicure.  I did that with a tween family friend, in the Before Times. That kind of thing.  

[Drama Llama]

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Edited July 8, 2021 by BaseballandHockey

[Drama Llama]

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Edited July 8, 2021 by BaseballandHockey

[Lecka]

I would consider she might be able to stay home alone, depending on all the details.

 

[Drama Llama]

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Edited July 8, 2021 by BaseballandHockey

[pinball]

IMO:

She needs some of her “own” friends and own activities.

plus she needs some meaningful jobs around the house and/or volunteering

also, consider sending her to camp...either a really active sports day camp or a sleep away camp with sporty stuff...ropes course, water sports, hiking

and she has to stop saying mean things...come up with a plan to address it every time. It will tough in the short run, priceless in the long run

[Drama Llama]

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Edited July 8, 2021 by BaseballandHockey

[Lecka]

I think she could also be jealous that she is not with her parents, and that is just — not easy to fix.  
 

I don’t know if she would even want to stay alone — or how much time it would be, etc.

 

But if it wasn’t way too much time alone, it would be on the table.

 

I think to some extent she would benefit from more attention, or from more independence with not being grouped with younger kids or kids where they just do not have so much in common right now.  
 

It can depend so much on all the details, though.

 

I also think since it’s such a mixed-age thing and it is not like she is at a program designed for her own age — what do the parents think? Could they spend more time with her, or find some independent activities she might do at your house?  I think some of that might be things for the parents to think about.  

[Drama Llama]

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Edited July 8, 2021 by BaseballandHockey

[Lecka]

Honestly — I don’t know what your commitment is here, but her mom is the one who doesn’t want her doing this and that, maybe you don’t have to babysit her all summer if it is looking like it’s not working out.

It’s the first week of July.  Do you think it is manageable at the current level?  Do you think maybe they need to find another solution if it goes on this way?

I get it if you are more venting than at the end of your rope.  
 

 

[wendyroo]

2 minutes ago, BaseballandHockey said:

With the new baby, her mom's anxiety about covid is super high.  She's letting them do swim team, because it's 100% outdoors, but not much else.  I agree that friends would be a great thing, but I can't control that. 

Might her parents be open to her doing a couple Outschool classes a week? They wouldn't have to be academic at all - they have social clubs, minecraft classes, book clubs, etc.

It wouldn't be in person time with friends, but many of the classes are ongoing so the same group of kids gets to know each other. If nothing else, it would give her an activity of her own away from all the other kids.

[Drama Llama]

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Edited July 8, 2021 by BaseballandHockey

[Drama Llama]

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Edited July 8, 2021 by BaseballandHockey

[pinball]

1 minute ago, BaseballandHockey said:

I agree but I can't make that choice for someone else's kid.  

Yeah.

So you only want ways to address this situation:

 “I don't think I could do that every time she says something though because she'd be living in another room.”

the verbal meanness? 

If you are allowed to separate her from the group for physically hitting or hurting the others, what are you allowed to do for the verbal stuff she’s doing? What do her parents want to do to address it?

[Susan in TX]

1 hour ago, BaseballandHockey said:

 

It's verbal stuff.  There's been some physical aggression, and that I know how to handle, but most of the time she's just saying mean things.  Yesterday, she told my youngest that he was a stupid cry baby, and that his brother (my middle son who died) was a stupid cry baby too.  

I simply wouldn't tolerate name calling or other verbal abuse. I would discipline her for it just as you would for hitting. And if the other kids are instigating then I would discipline them as well.

Susan in TX

[Lecka]

She might not get bored if she spent a few days with the tiny baby here and there.  Maybe she would like it here and there.  
 

Maybe it’s worth trying here and there?

 

Especially if she had Outschool — that is a great idea.

 

I think sometimes a little time apart can go a long way.   

[Drama Llama]

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Edited July 8, 2021 by BaseballandHockey

[Lecka]

I think it’s also worth considering she is receiving consequences from your older son even if she isn’t receiving them from you.  That is not a great situation, and doesn’t do her a favor to let your older son get REALLY fed up with her.  
 

Not that I think you can control it with consequences. It’s more just that — she does have consequences whether she is able to change how she is acting or not.  It might just not be a great situation for her right now.  

[Lecka]

Well — you are not her mom, and your kids are home with their mom.  
 

It is just something that can matter.

 

And she is being babysat and lumped in with younger kids at an age where she might not like that.

 

Her actual family situation includes that she could stay sometimes with a parent and little baby.  It is an option and she might just like to be with a parent sometimes.

I would feel that way as a child.  

[Lecka]

I wonder if it’s possible to discuss any of this with her when she is in a calm moment?  Maybe she is old enough, maybe not.  

Edit — my kids at this age can just react horribly to feeling like they are being treated like a baby.  It is serious stuff that does not make sense to me but I recognize it brings out the worst, while being treated older often brings out the best.  

 

Edited July 6, 2021 by Lecka

[mommyoffive]

I think having her stay home would be a great idea.  Take her out of the drama situation with all the other kids and let her stay at her house.  I bet she would be a huge help or would just want some alone time vs being with all the other kids all the time.  

[Drama Llama]

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Edited July 8, 2021 by BaseballandHockey

[mommyoffive]

Why is staying home not an option?  There are one  or 2 parents there?  My 10 year old would love time to herself away from her other siblings.  I am not saying she is being treated like a baby.  But maybe taking her out of the situation a few days a week would give everyone involved a breather.  My 10 year old and up kids would totally entertain themselves all day.  Plus would be a huge help with a baby.  

[Susan in TX]

7 minutes ago, BaseballandHockey said:

I don't just want to punish a kid.  She's clearly stressed out, by the baby, and the move, and the puberty, and the pandemic.  I'd love to find ways to make her actually feel better.  I'm fine with using exclusion once in a while as a discipline tool for major misbehavior.  I'm not fine with using it constantly.  

But if you do use it constantly then she will very likely change her behavior. Also, you don't necessarily have to be punitive. You can just pull her aside and say something like "I can see you are having a hard time getting along with the other kids right now. I'd like you to come help me with (insert something she can help you with.)" Or you can give her some options of things she can do by herself for a bit. 

Susan in TX

[Drama Llama]

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Edited July 8, 2021 by BaseballandHockey

[Junie]

It's a hard age with girls.  I remember that I myself was not a nice kid at that age.  And as the mother of five girls (currently 10, 13, 14, 16, and 18), we've been through this a lot.  I don't necessarily punish when they are being unkind, but I will call it out and if it doesn't settle down in 15 minutes, I will send the offending child to a room by herself for a while.  Sometimes the child just needs a little bit of extra love.  Mostly, I just wait until they outgrow it.

[mommyoffive]

What is a day like with all of them there? 

With all my kids home I like some structure to the day.  I do things that split kids up all day long to give them breaks from each other.  I have some people downstairs while the others go up.  Some kids outside and some in.  Some go on a bike ride while the others stay home.  I also have them do stuff on their own during the day.  One will work on painting or drawing while the others are doing something else.  They have online classes at different times divide things too.  They do have times together during the day, but I try to limit it.  I also like to get them outside and out and about to just change up the scenery vs staying home all the time.

Can you have her do an online class/camp if nothing else in person is open to her?  

[fairfarmhand]

When she gets mean, she can come join you for a boring activity. She can fold the clothes or just sit there but set a timer and do a time in. If being separated from the group works for hitting then it might work for meanness. This can be a time to chat and connect and give some attention. You should be very matter of fact about it. “Dear niece, that’s mean and you know it’s not ok. I need you to come in here with me for 10 minutes.”

[pinball]

21 minutes ago, BaseballandHockey said:

I want to address the fact that a kid I love is clearly unhappy, first and foremost.  I'd also like her to stop being mean to the other kids, but her unhappiness is my biggest concern. 

I realize that sending her to camp or something would be a solution, but there's a pandemic, and I'm not her parent.  I figure a homeschool board with lots of large families might have suggestions for dealing with a kid who is struggling to get along with family members due to puberty, that don't involve sending them to school or camp.  

I don't just want to punish a kid.  She's clearly stressed out, by the baby, and the move, and the puberty, and the pandemic.  I'd love to find ways to make her actually feel better.  I'm fine with using exclusion once in a while as a discipline tool for major misbehavior.  I'm not fine with using it constantly.  

“Sending her to camp” is not a banishment nor is saying “she needs her own friends” a criticism about the fact that she doesn’t have any. It’s an opinion that a girl of her age in her circumstances might benefit from those things.

So hitting is major misbehavior that is OK to use exclusion to address, but the verbal stuff isn’t...those are YOUR parameters, and I was just trying to clarify what are the parameters to address the verbal issues. 

If the exclusion would be “constant” bc of verbal issues, I would absolutely try to engage her about the pain she is causing other people. I would clearly tell her...if you <<<call names, make fun of, tease, say shut up...whatever are her verbal issues>>> you hurt Billy. Then tell her when you X, then Y will happen...Y being the consequence you and her parents decide upon.

The pain verbal abuse cause happens as soon as the target hears the abuse. So I don’t personally don’t think exclusion is inappropriate. The target cannot unhear mean words.

 

 

[fairfarmhand]

2 minutes ago, mommyoffive said:

What is a day like with all of them there? 

With all my kids home I like some structure to the day.  I do things that split kids up all day long to give them breaks from each other.  I have some people downstairs while the others go up.  Some kids outside and some in.  Some go on a bike ride while the others stay home.  I also have them do stuff on their own during the day.  One will work on painting or drawing while the others are doing something else.  They have online classes at different times divide things too.  They do have times together during the day, but I try to limit it.  I also like to get them outside and out and about to just change up the scenery vs staying home all the time.

Can you have her do an online class/camp if nothing else in person is open to her?  

This.

[Spryte]

41 minutes ago, BaseballandHockey said:

So it's back to the she only does what she wants to do.  I like to cook, and right now i've got 13 people to cook for, so I'm cooking a fair amount.  My son who is close to her in age loves to cook, and the other three like to help out once in a while, but she hates it, and then acts like we're deliberately excluding her by "choosing" to do something she doesn't like.  

She won't do anything girly.  The little girls will, but she will not.

 

I figured cooking was a bad example, in your house.  🤣 

I’d go with whatever I’m doing … gardening, something outside, whatever, and just ask if she wants to hang out with you and X.  Or crafting.  My kids have all been makers, though, and I’m guessing the kid in question is not.

We have a “sister family” with five kids that are here a lot.  Like, almost daily, and we’re all super close.  There’s one girl who sort of drifted at that age, and I have to really work at maintaining a level of closeness.  She’s one I took for a pedi, even though neither of us are girly.  I might take her to Tropical Smoothie (to go) while running an errand, we tried going for a walk once, and that was just weird… now I just make time to sit down beside her and try to ask questions that get her talking. She would never craft or make, and she sounds a lot like your tween niece…  and it’s just harder, and takes creativity.

[Not_a_Number]

35 minutes ago, BaseballandHockey said:

That's not a bad idea, I could ask her.  The middle sister is doing online ballet camp a few half days a week.

We actually had really good look with our Zoom class experiment this year. DD8 and her friends have genuinely stayed relatively tight -- we've now seem them in person and I can confirm that they are playing like old friends and not like kids who've just met. 

So I like the idea of online classes, especially if she could be in an online class with some kids she knows IRL? 

[wendyroo]

I would also start paying close attention to see if there is a pattern to when she struggles. Can she only regulate herself with the other kids for 45 minutes? Or is it when the others are doing a certain type of activity? Or could her blood sugar be dipping?

I don't think imposed structure has to be punishment or a consequence...sometimes it is just stepping in to help a child stay within their own capabilities, especially at times when those capabilities have changed precipitously and the child hasn't had a chance to adjust yet.

Another question is if she can feel as she is reaching her limit, but perhaps doesn't know how to extricate herself from the other kids and feels trapped.

Could she have a safe space that she could retreat to away from the other kids? Perhaps a corner of your bedroom or somewhere with a comfy chair and some pillows where she could leave some books or a puzzle in process or some fancy coloring supplies or headphones and music/audiobooks/podcasts. Just somewhere and something she can routinely fall back on when she is feeling riled or you inconspicuously signal that she seems to need a break.

When my kids are feeling dysregulated, the last thing they can do is think of and choose an activity to transition to, and therefore they stay in the stressful situation because it is easier than making a change. But if they already have a default, fall back plan, then there is a better chance of them being able to get themselves there before they make poor choices.

And to let her "save face", I would put in place a system for her to "blame you" if she needs to go off my herself. If you are around and she wants to get away, come up with a way for her to signal you so you can give her a task (check the dryer, see if the phone is ringing, add something to the grocery list, etc). Then she can just rejoin the activities when she is ready. If you aren't going to be around, give her an excuse she can use if she needs it (I've got something I need to do for Aunt), again, just to get her away without drawing attention to herself.

[Drama Llama]

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Edited July 8, 2021 by BaseballandHockey

[mommyoffive]

It sounds like she has a lot to do.   Does she get any alone time?  I kept "nap time" in my house for a long time.  Everyone got sent to a different spot for some downtime on their own.  And maybe she needs some alone time with you and your niece.  Like getting out of the house alone time.  Go on a walk with just her.  Or a bike ride with just her.  

I really feel for all the kids the last 2 years.  They have been through so much. 

[prairiewindmomma]

Have you explicitly connected her behaviors to the consequences? She may not be making the social connections on her own. 

Also, gently, although the adults may not prefer that she stay at her own home, she should be (apart from special needs) entirely capable of doing so. By 12 all of my kids have watched younger siblings, managed meal making for a family, done laundry, and handled basic cleaning. 
 

If this dynamic is working for your family, great, but I have noticed that you are not only cooking for everyone you are also providing all of the childcare and wonder, somewhat, if given your own extreme stress and how that is manifesting in your body if this is a helpful dynamic or a stressful one. 

[prairiewindmomma]

Coming back to add things I have told my own tween and teens:

”Hey, I noticed that when you raised your voice that x left the room. Why do you think that happened?”

”I see you really like to play x, but that sometimes other people want to do a or b and you don’t want to. Do you think other people should be able to do a or b? What could you do when they want to do a or b?”

“Your body is a bit out of control right now. Let’s feed it and give it a break with a quiet book.”

[Katy]

I’d probably call her in with me, give her a snack, and give that sort of sighing half smile I use when I mean, “I love you kid, but we both know this isn’t acceptable. What’s up?”  I’ve found this helps most kids open up & come to their own conclusions about behaving better.  If that didn’t happen of her own volition I’d say something like, “You know I can’t let you treat the kids that way.”

[itsheresomewhere]

Sounds like she needs some alone time and alone time with her mom, dad and new sibling.   My kids would need some alone time with that schedule or they get really cranky especially in the throes of puberty.  

[fraidycat]

Physical touch is a powerful healer.

A hug is a powerful tool when tweens are out-of-sorts. When my kids were going through the hormonal stuff and spinning out of control, I would "punish" them with a 60 second hug from Mama Bear (or in your case, Auntie Bear). By the end, they would either be laughing, or crying - not because of the hug, but because it was a safe space to finally release some pent-up emotion.

To this day, the kids (15 & 18/almost 19)?will just walk up and wrap their arms around me no matter what I am doing when they feel like they need a hug.

[Drama Llama]

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Edited July 8, 2021 by BaseballandHockey