Best way for grandparent to put money aside for a grandkid?

[Farrar]

Thanks, everyone. I've got some ideas of what to research and ask now and hopefully one of these options will work out... Even if it's annoying.

Edited June 25, 2021 by Farrar

[NewIma]

I'm not sure about your direct question, but will say that my grandparents wanted to write my aunt out of their will. They were informed by their lawyer that if they did that my aunt could contest the will. They ended up leaving her $500 and then she couldn't contest it. That is something to look into to be on the safe side.

[Farrar]

That's really good to know. I have really mixed feelings about this whole thing. Mostly, I just want whatever has me deal with my brother the least when she dies. I'm literally dreading it already and hopefully she'll be around for another decade.

[Slache]

16 minutes ago, Farrar said:

Mostly, I just want 

I've been researching this and you state in the will that you are deliberately leaving them nothing and why.

As to your original question I think the best option is to leave the whole lot to one person and they can write checks out on 18th birthdays. Sorry.

She should consult a lawyer.

[DoraBora]

Could she look into setting up a trust for his children or individual trusts? Perhaps they could be funded with whatever money is left after her final expenses are settled and you and your brother receive whatever she leaves to the two of you?  She should consider speaking to an estate planning attorney.  If your brother is untrustworthy, she'll have to think of someone else (hopefully not you) to be the trustee. 

She could stipulate that grandchildren receive their money from their trusts at age 25 or whatever, or that it's portioned out over several years.  Dh and I chose that age for our children back when they were young in case we were both to die and leave them as teens or young adults with a windfall of insurance money.  In this case -- I'm just guessing here -- she wouldn't want them to still be living at home with your brother when they came into their inheritances.

Edited June 24, 2021 by DoraBora
in denial about needing to wear readers : )

[Farrar]

She can't put it in trust for them now because she doesn't have their SSN's (and when she asked for them to buy them savings bonds that triggered a slew of hate texts... I would have told her not to do that, but whatever). But maybe she can put it in the will how they get the money and when - which is the more important thing, I guess?

Edited June 24, 2021 by Farrar

[Sneezyone]

In WA, you can set up a 529 giftor account and have the beneficiary or owner be a trust. The trust/owner account can be set up to give the funds to designated children as defined in a will or estate. You can contact GET for details but many corporate scholarships are set up this way. The corporation can buy up a bunch of units for distribution to designated/named beneficiaries later.

Edited June 24, 2021 by Sneezyone

[Acadie]

Funds that are connected with their SSN's can have consequences for college financial aid.

The way I understand it is that 5% of parent assets are added to the family contribution for college, while ~20% of student assets are. So it's better not to have assets in the child/student's name. A gift received during college is counted as a student asset, I believe.

I'd consult an attorney or CPA to figure out the options. Paula Bishop CPA knows her stuff and charges a low hourly rate for advice on college financial aid. You could try shooting her an email to ask if she can suggest options for this situation. I saw her recommended on the College Board on WTM and for just over $100 she answered all our questions, including regarding an inheritance. https://www.paulabishop.com/contact.html

I realize this may sound like an ad but I have no vested interest, just found her to be super knowledgable and helpful at a reasonable price (their packages cost more than the hourly rate, but are still much cheaper than many who offer their "services" to families of college students).

In short I think you need professional advice. 

[DoraBora]

18 minutes ago, Farrar said:

She can't put it in trust for them now because she doesn't have their SSN's (and when she asked for them to buy them savings bonds that triggered a slew of hate texts... I would have told her not to do that, but whatever). But maybe she can put it in the will how they get the money and when - which is the more important thing, I guess?

I don't think she needs their social security numbers to establish a trust for them, at least not when that trust isn't distributing funds.  Maybe I'm wrong on this. 

Any money not distributed when she dies has to be held somewhere and "watched" by someone until it's paid out.

[Storygirl]

My grandmother had five grandchildren. She opened a CD with $5000 and designated it "payable upon death" with each of the five of us receiving $1,000. The bank simply wrote checks to the beneficiaries after she died, and then closed the account. My grandmother lived very simply on a fixed income, and we didn't expect any inheritance, and this was a big surprise. The rest of her estate would have been minimal, and I expect she left a similar token amount to my dad and my aunt.

In the situation you describe, you could suggest that your mom talk to her bank about the possibility of putting funds into some kind of "payable upon death" account and find out whether there would be any estate or tax implications for the recipients.

[Farrar]

She's going to talk to her person who handles this stuff the next time she sees him. It's sounding like I may be stuck with this duty of managing the money for my nephews until such time that they're 18 or 25 or something. I find this really awkward to think about as there's a pretty good chance it will be a relatively long period (the older one isn't even in kindergarten yet).

[KungFuPanda]

Can’t she buy the bonds in her own name and leave them to the grandchildren in her will?

[Arcadia]

When I opened ITF/POD accounts for my teens when they were babies, the bank didn’t ask me for their SSN/ITIN. I didn’t have a SSN at that time since I was on H4 visa, so used my passport. 

[Slache]

The boys probably don't even have to know. No awkwardness necessary.

[Resilient]

I have experience here.  

US Savings Bonds. Something like that that can't be appropriated or used mistakenly.  

BUT the donor should be aware that the money will go to the designee even if the designee is not ... all that and a bag of chips.

 

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[Corraleno]

6 hours ago, Farrar said:

She can't put it in trust for them now because she doesn't have their SSN's 

She shouldn't need their SSNs for a trust, she can just get a separate EIN for the trust. Or if she does a revocable trust (meaning she remains the owner of the assets and can change her mind, change the terms of the trust, add or remove beneficiaries, change the successor trustee, etc.) then she can just use her own SSN, since tax on any income or gains within the trust would be paid by her anyway (since the assets are legally hers until she dies). I have revocable trusts for both my kids, and they are both registered to my SSN, not theirs. 

[madteaparty]

She can’t put $ on an account and do a transfer on death bc they’d still be minors at the time per the OP. But she can put the $ in an account (which I imagine can be a brokerage one that is invested in index funds or whatever) and make you the beneficiary and you write the checks when they’re 18 or whenever your mom stipulates. This way the account, with a TOD is ringfenced from the rest of the estate and as I understand it, the TOD means it won’t go through probate. You will just have to record keep farrar that account ending in XYZD is for those kids. 
Eta: this is not legal advice, I hate this stuff and have the most rudimentary of arrangements for myself (like, an email 🤣)

[Corraleno]

Any assets in a TOD account that passed to Farrar after death would be considered Farrar's assets for tax purposes, even though the intention is to eventually pass the money on to her brother's kids. She would owe tax on any dividends and gains earned by the account until it's distributed, and the assets could also be counted against her if her own kids applied for financial aid. And once the kids are 18 (or 25 or whatever her mother wanted the terms to be) she wouldn't be able to transfer more than $15K* per person per year from the account without filing a gift tax return and counting the excess against her own lifetime exclusion. A revocable trust for the kids that becomes irrevocable on death, with Farrar as trustee, makes more sense IMO. That wouldn't count as her assets, any tax would be owed and paid by the trust not her personally, and there would be no limit on distributions.

(*Payments for educational or medical bills that are remitted directly to the provider or school are exempt from the annual gift limit. If a spouse agrees to be included as a donor, then up to $30K/year could be distributed without filing a gift tax return. If those numbers seem like way more than there would be in the trust, keep in mind how much the investments could grow in 15 to 20 years.)

Edited June 24, 2021 by Corraleno

[Corraleno]

12 hours ago, Farrar said:

It's sounding like I may be stuck with this duty of managing the money for my nephews until such time that they're 18 or 25 or something. I find this really awkward to think about as there's a pretty good chance it will be a relatively long period (the older one isn't even in kindergarten yet).

She could set up the trust with a bank or other fiduciary as trustee and leave you out of it, although they will charge a fee for that (for banks it's generally around 1-2% of assets per year).

She could also make you the trustee, but just put the money in a Vanguard account with a simple 3-fund portfolio, with any income and gains automatically reinvested, and then you wouldn't have to do anything or make any decisions until you close the account and distribute the money at whatever age your mother decides is appropriate. You'd just have to file a trust tax return each year, but you wouldn't need to actively "manage" it and as long as the terms of the trust are clear you wouldn't have to deal with making decisions about when to distribute the money, what expenses count as worthy of distribution, whether the distributions should be exactly equal or determined by who needs it more, etc.

[Farrar]

The issue of having to pay taxes on and manage any assets is... a major annoyance, I have to admit. And we're not talking about giant money here. Like, maybe a few thousand each. It would just depend on what she does. And frankly, when she dies. This is why buying them savings bonds over time would have been a much better solution - it was the one I originally suggested. They do have a 529, but it's being used for private school, which my mom feels like defeats the purpose of giving them any money. Like, if she puts a thousand dollars in there, it'll just be immediately used with no thanks and the kids never knowing. She just wants these kids to know that she loved them and thought of them, even though she was cut from their lives. Or, rather, she could have stayed, but it seemed to involve a lot of verbal abuse as a tradeoff and she decided she wasn't going to do that. I have zero idea how these kids will turn out. Their parents are doing some parenting that I consider... potentially not good for growing healthy humans... but they also love them so much and that often overcomes all the mess ups we all have. I can't get clear how much of this dysfunction is just around my brother with us because of a long and difficult history and how much carries over to the rest of his life. But it's sort of moot. 

[Corraleno]

6 minutes ago, Farrar said:

The issue of having to pay taxes on and manage any assets is... a major annoyance, I have to admit. And we're not talking about giant money here. Like, maybe a few thousand each.

But if the oldest one is barely 5, then this money is likely to be invested for 15-20 years before the kids get it, so $5K now could be $30K-40K or more by the time they're 25. Obviously it would be much less if she just buys savings bonds or lets it sit in a savings account with a low interest rate, but why give up the potential for so much growth?

[Sneezyone]

32 minutes ago, Corraleno said:

But if the oldest one is barely 5, then this money is likely to be invested for 15-20 years before the kids get it, so $5K now could be $30K-40K or more by the time they're 25. Obviously it would be much less if she just buys savings bonds or lets it sit in a savings account with a low interest rate, but why give up the potential for so much growth?

This is why I’m suggesting having the trust/mom own a 529 account. It remains separate from the student until an award is issued. Distribution of funds and tax statements is done by the 529.

Edited June 24, 2021 by Sneezyone

[Farrar]

So she could open a 529 without their SSN's and manage it. She dies, they're in middle school or something? I inherit and manage it until they're 17/18 and then contact brother and turn it over to them all at that point?

[Corraleno]

58 minutes ago, Farrar said:

So she could open a 529 without their SSN's and manage it. She dies, they're in middle school or something? I inherit and manage it until they're 17/18 and then contact brother and turn it over to them all at that point?

The issue with a 529 is that it can only be used for "qualified educational expenses" and there is a significant penalty for withdrawal for other purposes. So, for example, if one of the kids either chose not to go to college, or got a full scholarship, but wanted to use the money for a car or to start a business or something, they would have to pay a 10% Federal penalty plus back taxes on the income/gains that would have accrued in order to get money out of the account. I chose not to use 529s for my kids, which turned out to be a good choice because DS got a full ride and DD is just taking a few classes at the CC while working. I chose to use revocable trusts invested in a way that minimizes income and gains, and doesn't restrict what it can be used for. And the assets get a step-up in cost basis when I die, so any unrealized gains at that point are essentially tax free. 

[Beth S]

My understanding is the 529s can affect financial aid eligibility too.
My understanding is that the full ride scholarship allows withdrawal of an equal amount from the 529, penalty free.
I'm still very skeptical about committing to anything that locks in the money for so long.
(The rules governing 529s could change quite a bit over 10+ years.)

Another unknown component--could your brother have MORE children be born between now & end-of-her-life?

Apparently it is difficult to leave money to a grandchild, even if you have the SSN.
Agreeing that the child has to be 23yo+ to inherit without a trustee/guardian.
We've put our local bank in charge of the $$ for our minor children, if we pass on.
I think there are problems in all directions, sadly.

You also don't want the grandchild to become a "trust fund kid" where he's not learning to become an independent adult, due to the future inheritance (which indeed could be $20K, if invested in stock index funds, which follow the stock market).

ETA:  The definitive answer is to talk with a tax accountant or estate planning attorney for solid suggestions.

Edited June 24, 2021 by Beth S

[Corraleno]

5 hours ago, Farrar said:

So she could open a 529 without their SSN's and manage it. She dies, they're in middle school or something? I inherit and manage it until they're 17/18 and then contact brother and turn it over to them all at that point?

It's more complicated than that. A 529 can only have one named beneficiary, and the 529 owner cannot have more than one account for the same beneficiary. If your mom had SSNs for your brother's kids she could set up a separate 529 for each kid, but without their SSNs, the best she could do is set up an account with you as the beneficiary. Then when you eventually want to start making distributions for college, you would change the beneficiary to whichever kid needed the money first, make the distribution, and then when another child needed money you would need to change the beneficiary to their name, then change it back when the first kid needed more money, etc. Lather, rinse, repeat, each time you need to make a distribution for a different child (but no more than twice per year). Having a single account for multiple children can also raise issues of "fairness" — what happens if one child chooses an expensive private school and another goes to CC or doesn't go at all? Who decides what each child is "entitled" to?

If you want to avoid dealing with all that by transferring ownership of the 529 to your brother, he would then have the right to use the account however he chose — including withdrawing all the money and paying the penalty, using it all for one child to the exclusion of others, etc. And even if he used the money for the kids, they might never know that the money came from your mom and not from him. If the whole point of setting aside some money for these kids is to bypass your brother and make sure they get the money directly from your mom, transferring the 529 to your brother would seem contrary to her intentions.

A revocable trust, with you as successor trustee, that directly names the kids as beneficiaries and specifies the age at which each child gets their portion (with or without additional clauses that would allow you to make discretionary distributions), is both much simpler and much less restrictive. The trust can use her SSN during her lifetime, and then you would just get an EIN after her death, so there's no need for the kids SSNs until they actually inherit the money as adults. Your mom would continue to pay the tax on any income or gains during her lifetime, and after her death you would just submit a 1041 for any year in which the trust had more than $600 in taxable income. There are no restrictions on how it can be invested or spent, unlike 529s, and each kid gets their fair share at an appropriate age, knowing it was gift from their grandmother.

[Sneezyone]

17 minutes ago, Corraleno said:

It's more complicated than that. A 529 can only have one named beneficiary, and the 529 owner cannot have more than one account for the same beneficiary. If your mom had SSNs for your brother's kids she could set up a separate 529 for each kid, but without their SSNs, the best she could do is set up an account with you as the beneficiary. Then when you eventually want to start making distributions for college, you would change the beneficiary to whichever kid needed the money first, make the distribution, and then when another child needed money you would need to change the beneficiary to their name, then change it back when the first kid needed more money, etc. Lather, rinse, repeat, each time you need to make a distribution for a different child (but no more than twice per year). Having a single account for multiple children can also raise issues of "fairness" — what happens if one child chooses an expensive private school and another goes to CC or doesn't go at all? Who decides what each child is "entitled" to?

If you want to avoid dealing with all that by transferring ownership of the 529 to your brother, he would then have the right to use the account however he chose — including withdrawing all the money and paying the penalty, using it all for one child to the exclusion of others, etc. And even if he used the money for the kids, they might never know that the money came from your mom and not from him. If the whole point of setting aside some money for these kids is to bypass your brother and make sure they get the money directly from your mom, transferring the 529 to your brother would seem contrary to her intentions.

A revocable trust, with you as successor trustee, that directly names the kids as beneficiaries and specifies the age at which each child gets their portion (with or without additional clauses that would allow you to make discretionary distributions), is both much simpler and much less restrictive. The trust can use her SSN during her lifetime, and then you would just get an EIN after her death, so there's no need for the kids SSNs until they actually inherit the money as adults. Your mom would continue to pay the tax on any income or gains during her lifetime, and after her death you would just submit a 1041 for any year in which the trust had more than $600 in taxable income. There are no restrictions on how it can be invested or spent, unlike 529s, and each kid gets their fair share at an appropriate age, knowing it was gift from their grandmother.

NOOOO….I know for a fact that, in WA, a 529 account with GET can be opened to serve a number of beneficiaries.

 

7 hours ago, Farrar said:

So she could open a 529 without their SSN's and manage it. She dies, they're in middle school or something? I inherit and manage it until they're 17/18 and then contact brother and turn it over to them all at that point?

YES! Seriously, talk to GET. This is totally doable. I know b/c we funded GEAR UP scholarships using GET funds and there were several corporations that set up GET accounts to fund their scholarship programs. The beneficiaries weren’t set in advance. They were determined later. All 529s are not created equal and GET is especially flexible.

Edited June 25, 2021 by Sneezyone

[Farrar]

Okay, this is all useful to know. Thanks.

Lots to think about in how to be fair about this. 

[Corraleno]

1 hour ago, Sneezyone said:

NOOOO….I know for a fact that, in WA, a 529 account with GET can be opened to serve a number of beneficiaries.

 

YES! Seriously, talk to GET. This is totally doable. I know b/c we funded GEAR UP scholarships using GET funds and there were several corporations that set up GET accounts to fund their scholarship programs. The beneficiaries weren’t set in advance. They were determined later. All 529s are not created equal and GET is especially flexible.

GET is Washington state's prepaid tuition program — that is totally different from a 529 savings account. With a prepaid tuition account you are buying "tuition units" that are benchmarked against tuition at Washington state universities, and the investment is guaranteed to rise in value as tuition at Washington state universities rises. The funds can be used for college in other states, but the increase in value is tied to the cost of tuition in WA state.

A 529 savings account allows you to invest money in certain designated market funds, and the growth is based on the growth of those funds. You can only have ONE named beneficiary at a time.

From the IRS:

"There are two basic types of 529 plans -- prepaid tuition plans and savings plans. A prepaid tuition plan enables a family to pay for future tuition now in current dollars and prices. A savings plan enables a family to accumulate funds in a tax-advantaged way for future tuition costs. A 529 plan can be established and maintained by a state, state agency, or an eligible educational institution. Each 529 plan is somewhat unique. Some state-sponsored plans offer incentives to in-state participants, such as state income-tax deductions or credits. Each 529 plan has one custodian and one beneficiary. A student or future student can be the beneficiary of more than one 529 plan."

From Charles Schwab:

"When you open a 529, you need to name a beneficiary—one beneficiary. While your intent may be to fund the education of more than one child, you can only make tax-free withdrawals for qualified education costs of the named beneficiary. So how would this work for multiple children? There is a way, but it takes jumping through some administrative hoops. Here are a couple of examples. 

Let's say your kids are four years apart. In this case, you could use the 529 money for the first child's education. Then, when the older child graduates, change the beneficiary to the younger child. Simple enough. However in your case, with children 2½ years apart, it's more complicated. When your older son first enters college, no problem. But when you want to tap the funds for the younger child's education a couple years later, you'd have to make that child the beneficiary. Then when you again needed money for the older child, you'd have to change the beneficiary again. It's technically possible depending on the plan, but it would mean a lot of back and forth during the two years the kids' college careers overlapped."

Forbes:

"Parents who use one account to save for multiple children could run into problems when it’s time to take distributions to pay for college. 529 plans only allow one designated beneficiary, which means you can only use the funds to pay for one child’s college expenses at a time."

[Sneezyone]

12 minutes ago, Corraleno said:

GET is Washington state's prepaid tuition program — that is totally different from a 529 savings account. With a prepaid tuition account you are buying "tuition units" that are benchmarked against tuition at Washington state universities, and the investment is guaranteed to rise in value as tuition at Washington state universities rises. The funds can be used for college in other states, but the increase in value is tied to the cost of tuition in WA state.

A 529 savings account allows you to invest money in certain designated market funds, and the growth is based on the growth of those funds. You can only have ONE named beneficiary at a time.

From the IRS:

"There are two basic types of 529 plans -- prepaid tuition plans and savings plans. A prepaid tuition plan enables a family to pay for future tuition now in current dollars and prices. A savings plan enables a family to accumulate funds in a tax-advantaged way for future tuition costs. A 529 plan can be established and maintained by a state, state agency, or an eligible educational institution. Each 529 plan is somewhat unique. Some state-sponsored plans offer incentives to in-state participants, such as state income-tax deductions or credits. Each 529 plan has one custodian and one beneficiary. A student or future student can be the beneficiary of more than one 529 plan."

From Charles Schwab:

"When you open a 529, you need to name a beneficiary—one beneficiary. While your intent may be to fund the education of more than one child, you can only make tax-free withdrawals for qualified education costs of the named beneficiary. So how would this work for multiple children? There is a way, but it takes jumping through some administrative hoops. Here are a couple of examples. 

Let's say your kids are four years apart. In this case, you could use the 529 money for the first child's education. Then, when the older child graduates, change the beneficiary to the younger child. Simple enough. However in your case, with children 2½ years apart, it's more complicated. When your older son first enters college, no problem. But when you want to tap the funds for the younger child's education a couple years later, you'd have to make that child the beneficiary. Then when you again needed money for the older child, you'd have to change the beneficiary again. It's technically possible depending on the plan, but it would mean a lot of back and forth during the two years the kids' college careers overlapped."

Forbes:

"Parents who use one account to save for multiple children could run into problems when it’s time to take distributions to pay for college. 529 plans only allow one designated beneficiary, which means you can only use the funds to pay for one child’s college expenses at a time."

GET has a savings plan and a prepaid tuition plan. BOTH are qualified 529 plans. You don’t have to designate a specific individual and change to a different beneficiary when the account owner is a trust or corporation. It just has to be organized as a non-profit. The way you described it is how my PERSONAL account works, not how a corporate or trust account works. https://wastate529.wa.gov/scholarship-accounts

I worked for the WA Student Aid Commission when it was the HECB and GET first started. My guaranteed unit price is $28. Lol. These issues were hashed out early on. This was the solution they came up with.

Edited June 25, 2021 by Sneezyone

[Corraleno]

41 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

GET has a savings plan and a prepaid tuition plan. BOTH are qualified 529 plans. You don’t have to designate a specific individual and change to a different beneficiary when the account owner is a trust or corporation. Seriously. It doesn’t work that way. The way you described it is how my PERSONAL account works, not how a corporate or trust account works.https://wastate529.wa.gov/scholarship-accounts

I worked for the WA Student Aid Commission when it was the HECB and GET started. These issues were hashed out early on.

GET is Washington's 529 prepaid tuition program — it literally stands for Guaranteed Education Tuition. The 529 savings program is Dream Ahead. And according to this document on the GET Master Scholarship Program, it only applies to "a State or local governmental unit, or nonprofit organization exempt from federal income tax under Section 501(c)(3) of the Code, that is registered or licensed to operate in the State [of Washington]."  

How is that remotely relevant to Farrar's mom, who just wants to invest a few thousand dollars for her granchildren? In order to set up a Master Scholarship GET account, she would first have to set up a registered 501c in the state of Washington, which presumably would have to do a lot more than just hold a few thousand dollars for her grandchildren's benefit, then set up a GET account in the name of the 501c, designate an Authorized Representative (which can only be changed by written notice submitted on "corporate letterhead"), and then Farrar would have to maintain the 501c and deal with a ton of unnecessary bureaucracy every time a distribution needs to be made. That's vastly more complicated than just opening a personal 529 savings account and changing the beneficiary when you need to make distributions! And neither approach solves the problem of what to do if one or more children decides not to attend college.

Edited June 25, 2021 by Corraleno
so many typos...

[Sneezyone]

8 minutes ago, Corraleno said:

GET is Washington's 529 prepaid tuition program — it literally stands for Guaranteed Education Tuition. The 529 savings program is Dream Ahead. And according to this document on the GET Master Scholarship Program, it only applies to "a State or local governmental unit, or nonprofit organization exempt from federal income tax under Section 501(c)(3) of the Code, that is registered or licensed to operate in the State [of Washington]."  

How is that remotely relevant to Farrar's mom, who just wants to invest a few thousand dollars for her granchildren? In order to set up a Master Scholarship GET account, she would first have to set up a registered 501c in the state of Washington, which presumably would have to do a lot more than just hold a few thousand dollars for her grandchildren's benefit, then set up a GET account in the name of the 501c, designate an Authorized Representative (which can only be changed by written notice submitted on "corporate letterhead"), and then Farrar would have to maintain the 501c and deal with a ton of unnecessary bureaucracy every time a distribution needs to be made. That's vastly more complicated than just opening a personal 529 savings account and changing the beneficiary when you need to make distributions! And neither approach solves the problem of what to do if one or more children decides not to attend college.

Meh, It’s not that difficult to create a 501 (c)(3) to leave the money to. It’s a type of corporation, similar in effort to a trust. A named representative could be Farrar. Again, not hard. Setting up the get account is also easy. It’s a two-page application and a check. As part of creating the non-profit, what happens to the proceeds on dissolution are described. The benefit is that the money can be allocated as needed so there’s no need to constantly change beneficiaries. Any unused funds in a master account automatically revert to the owner, not the beneficiary. It’s an option.