Another pride month question: trans and non-binary people

[1234]

7 minutes ago, KSera said:

I can back that up first hand from where I am. It was a trivial matter to get approval here. 

This is interesting because it’s not crazy easy here. When Ds looked into actual surgery just over a year ago, the requirement here was still 12 months of therapy and letters from his therapist and his doctor. He also had to be socially transitioned for at least a year, as well as being at least 18. I’m a bit disheartened to hear it might be too easy to make permanent decisions in places. We all benefited greatly from therapy during those first few years (we did individual, parent, and family therapy) prior to, and in the beginning, of hormones (which we also had to have documented therapy and letters to start as well).

[Terabith]

Weirdly, since we're in a relatively small city in southwestern Virginia, I think it would be pretty easy to start medical transitioning stuff.  My youngest has a friend who was AMAB who started hormones around 15, I think.  And the doctors have asked my oldest what they want to do medically.  They want to have top surgery, but we've been pretty clear about needing to be 18 for that.  I'm very glad they have not wanted to do any hormones, because I would have had to have been the bad guy about that, and it would have been very hard.  

[madteaparty]

12 hours ago, regentrude said:

I don't think anyone is embarking on transitioning willy-nilly without serious thoughts,  exactly because the risks are great  - not just medically; at least in the US, living as trans is very dangerous. I can't imagine anyone risking their lives without serious deliberations.

You’d be shocked how willy nilly this comes up. Like getting braces or something.

[Tanaqui]

I didn't bring up "getting braces" willy nilly either when the kids needed them. Those are both painful and expensive! We had a lot of talk about whether or not the benefit justified the cost, not to mention the hours and hours spent at the dentist for this.

Not that I've ever heard of anybody, nor met anybody, who treated transition, even just socially, on par with orthodontics.

[Dmmetler]

10 hours ago, Tanaqui said:

I didn't bring up "getting braces" willy nilly either when the kids needed them. Those are both painful and expensive! We had a lot of talk about whether or not the benefit justified the cost, not to mention the hours and hours spent at the dentist for this.

Not that I've ever heard of anybody, nor met anybody, who treated transition, even just socially, on par with orthodontics.

Social transition, at least based on the NB kids I know, is a matter of saying "Call me Name" and "My pronouns are X/Y". That's it. It's very much the same as dropping a childhood nickname. Even in my fairly conservative Southern suburb, the rule is that you call people what they want to be called, including pronouns. It only becomes a big deal when things need to change legally or physically. I'm not sure that most of these teens really even qualify as having gender dysphoria in that they aren't terribly upset with their physical bodes or biological sex-they just feel the gender labels are too limiting.  I also have multiple adult friends who have come out as NB-and usually it's because children in their lives have, and when they started researching it, they realized that this was how they've always felt, but just didn't have a name for it. They aren't changing their names, legally or even individually, usually aren't changing their pronouns, or, at minimum, aren't particularly upset if they are called "She" vs "They", and mostly it's just a part of their self discovery. All have stayed married, and have not gone public until their spouse was on board. 

 

It's far more like getting a haircut than orthodontia. 

 

 

[TheReader]

I'm not aware of any of my peers being trans or non-binary, although it's certainly possible. I'm positive that were I to go to my next high school or even college reunion, I'd find that some classmates fall in this category, even if I didn't know it at the time. 

I do know friends of my children who are trans &/or non-binary, as well as young adult children of my friends. As well as a handful of others who've gone through explorations on the issue and arrived at the conclusions that no, they aren't after all (or, perhaps, that they decided it wasn't worth being out about, so they told their families that they weren't). 

So, not a lot, but not none. Half a dozen or so....?

 

[Spy Car]

On 6/6/2021 at 6:50 AM, Melissa Louise said:

 

I'm pretty sick of getting typecast as a TERF in these conversations. I've worked hard to find out as much as I can in order to find the best treatment for my child, and part of that was reading the research and noting the many, many flaws in what cannot be called an evidence base, and the experimental nature of treatment. 

 

 

Typecast? Nah Stella.

You have a long and ugly history on this forum of making bigoted, disparaging, and unkind comments about trans folks. You can keep changing your screen name and try to run away from the ugliness you bring to the forum, but I--for one--have a long memory of your TERFism.

Gimme a break.

Bill

[73349]

On 6/6/2021 at 7:08 AM, madteaparty said:

I generally have an issue with asking very young children to “identify” as something(and this includes any of the LGBTQ+ categories). I think a couple of the younger generations are all fluid and should be allowed to be wherever they choose on whatever spectrum, and further change from here to there. and asking them to commit one way or another so we can “support” them Is more for our eagerness to be politically correct and “open minded” rather than any real support we provide them.

it’s a different story with young adults who think they’ve landed and need to be supported where they find themselves. 

That would work perfectly, I think, if we had birth announcements, birth certificates, and social expectations saying, "It's a Baby!" If there weren't girl names and boy names, girl clothes and boy clothes. If we used "they" in the singular for all minors. If we had a generic Child Haircut.

But we don't.

So adults pick a label and markers for kids--sometimes before they're even born, sometimes immediately after. We commit them one way or the other before they can raise an objection if they would be so inclined. When young people do object, they're not the ones committing themselves. It was already done to them, and they've realized they don't want to go along with it.

What exactly they need from there will vary, but it's not as though nobody gave a thought to their gender until they spoke up.

 

In response to the OP, nobody I'm close to is nonbinary or trans. (I have a pretty small circle.) My cousin's stepchild is trans, and some folks at my church.

[Amy in NH]

On 6/5/2021 at 12:14 PM, prairiewindmomma said:

Do you have, in your circle of relationships, trans or non-binary people?

Relatives?

People you have conversation with who know some degree of detail about your life and you theirs?

(I once saw a trans person or my friend of a friend thing would not fit this.)

I am totally curious about this after reading the pronouns thread. 

My oldest child is non-binary - they/them pronouns.

My second child is transgender - she/her pronouns.  "Coming out" as a mid-teen ~10 years ago was not a surprise to us, and we were able to find an appropriate therapist and endocrinologist to help her through the process (which is ongoing).

They both changed their names as young adults, have accepting and supportive friends, and are comfortable in their identities.  Some of their friends are also trans, queer, etc.

In the past couple of years DH & I have developed a friendship with an older adult couple - one of whom is transgender but is not out with their own family members, so their pronouns (and gender presentation) change depending on the situation. 

[Amy in NH]

On 6/6/2021 at 9:50 AM, Melissa Louise said:

Great. And my kid is doing much better after psychotherapy and treatment for co-morbidities, and no transition. Anecdotes take us nowhere. 

 

Given the large number of suicides amongst the young transgender population, I think anecdotes are important.  My kid was one of the suicidal ones until she came to an acceptance of herself, and 10 years after beginning transition and living as her authentic self she is no longer suicidal and is now living a happy and productive life with plans for further transition after new medical procedures are perfected.  We went through lots and lots of normal therapeutic counseling and anti-depressant trials that did squat before she finally started to transition which improved her outlook on life.

If you feel you get cast as a TERF, perhaps it's because that's how you are presenting?

[Amy in NH]

19 hours ago, Joker2 said:

This is interesting because it’s not crazy easy here. When Ds looked into actual surgery just over a year ago, the requirement here was still 12 months of therapy and letters from his therapist and his doctor. He also had to be socially transitioned for at least a year, as well as being at least 18. I’m a bit disheartened to hear it might be too easy to make permanent decisions in places. We all benefited greatly from therapy during those first few years (we did individual, parent, and family therapy) prior to, and in the beginning, of hormones (which we also had to have documented therapy and letters to start as well).

This was the case for us, too.

Edited to add, since this has come up a few times here:
My kids never went to school, so social pressure was not a factor.

Without any particular regard or mention of gender or sexuality, they have always been told that our desire was for them to grow to become their best authentic self - whatever that ended up being - just to always do their best to make the world a better place in their own way.

My kids were exposed and encouraged to learn life skills and hobbies that have been gender-defined as both masculine and feminine since they were infants.

Edited June 7, 2021 by Amy in NH

[annandatje]

On 6/5/2021 at 11:14 AM, prairiewindmomma said:

Do you have, in your circle of relationships, trans or non-binary people?

Relatives?

People you have conversation with who know some degree of detail about your life and you theirs?

(I once saw a trans person or my friend of a friend thing would not fit this.)

I am totally curious about this after reading the pronouns thread. 

I have a transgender (ftm) son in his early 30s.  Fortunately as child, I briefly knew a girl who would have been diagnosed today as transgender.  Thus, early on by preschooler age, I recognized some subtle and more blatant clues in my son.  When I would attempt to explain to other mothers, they would blow it off as "being a tomboy" which it clearly was NOT.  I stopped discussing the matter with people.  Reading posts on this board about trans people is what drove me away for a number of years.  I am encouraged by the acceptance and compassion that many extend to people these days who identify as LTBTQIA.  My son has lived as male since age 15 although he did not begin hormone treatment until 18 and got mastectomy for college graduation gift.

My just-married 30 year old daughter just announced that she is non-binary.  Gee thanks, another newfangled term to learn 🙂 ; whatever became of gender-fluid?  Again, there were signs throughout life that her gender flowed on a spectrum so no surprise there.  Happily, she is married to a wonderful, compassionate, supportive, highly intelligent young lady.

Since two of my children are trans and NB, naturally I know quite a few of their LTBTQIA friends, many of whom are like extended family members.

[KSera]

3 hours ago, Amy in NH said:

If you feel you get cast as a TERF, perhaps it's because that's how you are presenting?

I don’t think that’s fair. People are sharing various anecdotes about their own kids. I think all are valid, with the understanding that they are anecdotes. This isn’t a simple issue with black and white answers. There’s potential for harm in any direction, and from what I’ve seen here, all of the parents here with trans kids are supporting their kids and trying to do the best they can for them. 

[Melissa Louise]

Re suicide:

Current public health advice is that we don't link risk of suicide to a single factor. This is because suicide is multi-factorial. 

As per the Tavistock/GIDS in the UK, children under support for gender dysphoria are not at an increased risk of suicide as compared to the population from which they are drawn - children with mental health difficulties. Completed or attempted suicides for children receiving therapeutic care for co-morbid suicidality are rare. Tavi notes it is far from inevitable for GD clients to present with suicidality. 

The suicide threat (affirm immediately or your kid will kill themselves) is an appeal to emotion designed to push a particular treatment....social affirmation, blockers, cross sex hormones, a variety of surgical routes. 

Some adults will need this path, because their dysphoria persists to an extent that is currently untreatable in other ways. Interestingly  ( and sadly), adult transition, absent quality mental health care, hasn't been shown to reduce suicide risk over the long term. 

North America is lagging well behind other developed countries in following the (limited) data. 

It's an emotive subject; I get that. It's also a partisan subject in the US. It isn't partisan everywhere, and tbh, I think that leads to clearer heads and a greater willingness to apply some critical thinking around the issue. 

[Melissa Louise]

My kids didn't go to school either, btw. 

[KSera]

19 minutes ago, Melissa Louise said:

Current public health advice is that we don't link risk of suicide to a single factor. This is because suicide is multi-factorial. 

This is an issue of particular concern to me, in all realms with young people, whether it be sexuality, gender, or Covid restrictions, due in particular to the high suggestibility of suicidality, particularly in young people. I think we are literally making this generation of kids increasingly suicidal by telling them just how suicidal they are and all the good reasons they have to be so. I hear those things quoted back to me by my kids, and suicide seems to be no big thing to them—a natural reaction to something difficult in life. I find that really dangerous and scary. I think there was actually a safety benefit in suicide being more taboo. I’m glad for kids to be able to know how to get help if they feel that way, but I wish they weren’t always being bombarded with the idea that it’s unsurprising they feel that way due to x,y,z.

[Melissa Louise]

6 minutes ago, KSera said:

This is an issue of particular concern to me, in all realms with young people, whether it be sexuality, gender, or Covid restrictions, due in particular to the high suggestibility of suicidality, particularly in young people. I think we are literally making this generation of kids increasingly suicidal by telling them just how suicidal they are and all the good reasons they have to be so. I hear those things quoted back to me by my kids, and suicide seems to be no big thing to them—a natural reaction to something difficult in life. I find that really dangerous and scary. I think there was actually a safety benefit in suicide being more taboo. I’m glad for kids to be able to know how to get help if they feel that way, but I wish they weren’t always being bombarded with the idea that it’s unsurprising they feel that way due to x,y,z.

Public health (and reputable journalism) agrees with you. It's really, really important to talk about suicide responsibly. Not because it should be taboo to talk about (responsibly) but so we don't inadvertently reinforce suicidal thoughts and behaviours in others. 

My personal, non-expert, lived experience feeling is that responsible discussion and reportage reduces stigma and provides hope.