Another pride month question: trans and non-binary people

[Matryoshka]

1 hour ago, Katy said:

I thought so, but she speaks about it as an identity so I don’t know how to process it. 

It is an identity as well, but on a different spectrum.  I am no expert, but since I'm constantly being schooled on all the new lingo, my current understanding is thus-ish...

Attraction spectrum (who you want to have nookie with) - heterosexual, homosexual, bisexual, asexual, pansexual
Gender spectrum (who you feel like you 'are') - female (cis or trans), male (cis or trans), nonbinary, genderqueer or genderfluid (are these last two the same??)

There are likely more.  I think I overheard someone saying there are 17 different genders now?  But above is what I've got my head around (mostly) so far.

[KSera]

2 minutes ago, Matryoshka said:

It is an identity as well, but on a different spectrum.  I am no expert, but since I'm constantly being schooled on all the new lingo, my current understanding is thus-ish...

Attraction spectrum (who you want to have nookie with) - heterosexual, homosexual, bisexual, asexual, pansexual
Gender spectrum (who you feel like you 'are') - female (cis or trans), male (cis or trans), nonbinary, genderqueer or genderfluid (are these last two the same??)

There are likely more.  I think I overheard someone saying there are 17 different genders now?  But above is what I've got my head around (mostly) so far.

Beyond that, the attraction spectrum can be further divided between sexual attraction and romantic attraction. So, for example, someone can be asexual but biromantic (not an uncommon pairing for nb individuals, especially those on the spectrum). Others may be both asexual and aromatic. 

[Pawz4me]

3 minutes ago, Matryoshka said:

It is an identity as well, but on a different spectrum.  I am no expert, but since I'm constantly being schooled on all the new lingo, my current understanding is thus-ish...

Attraction spectrum (who you want to have nookie with) - heterosexual, homosexual, bisexual, asexual, pansexual
Gender spectrum (who you feel like you 'are') - female (cis or trans), male (cis or trans), nonbinary, genderqueer or genderfluid (are these last two the same??)

There are likely more.  I think I overheard someone saying there are 17 different genders now?  But above is what I've got my head around (mostly) so far.

Thank you for this. I try to be respectful of everybody, but just between us -- I find it very challenging to keep up with all the appropriate terminology and wrap my mind around these issues, and thus I often stay silent for fear of using the wrong term or inadvertently saying something offensive. I'm a prolific user of the Google, but sometimes I'm afraid of what might pop up when researching things relating to sex/gender issues. I appreciate any/all education I get here.

[Matryoshka]

Just now, KSera said:

Beyond that, the attraction spectrum can be further divided between sexual attraction and romantic attraction. So, for example, someone can be asexual but biromantic (not an uncommon pairing for nb individuals, especially those on the spectrum). Others may be both asexual and aromatic. 

Yes, thanks for that.  Indeed I am also trying to wrap my head around this.  One of mine (ironically the only one who's cishet) says she's asexual and is trying to decide if she is also aromantic - hasn't decided yet.  Any grandchildren I get will be adopted... 😅

[Matryoshka]

Just now, Pawz4me said:

Thank you for this. I try to be respectful of everybody, but just between us -- I find it very challenging to keep up with all the appropriate terminology and wrap my mind around these issues, and thus I often stay silent for fear of using the wrong term or inadvertently saying something offensive. I'm a prolific user of the Google, but sometimes I'm afraid of what might pop up when researching things relating to sex/gender issues. I appreciate any/all education I get here.

Word.  See my post above in response to Ksera's reminding me about the third spectrum I'd totally forgotten about!  

[Elizabeth86]

No. 

[KSera]

20 minutes ago, Matryoshka said:

Any grandchildren I get will be adopted...

Yes, I am told this frequently by my older children, and it seems to be the preferred method for their friends as well. I can’t help but wonder where they think all these kids without parents are going to come from if everyone in the future wants to adopt. 

[Melissa Louise]

I have two children ( one adult, one teen) who have both received a diagnosis of gender dysphoria at some point.

Personally, I'm only really interested in improving care for young people with a sudden and distressing GD diagnosis. It's starting from a low bar. Most treatment is experimental, and there is no robust evidence for affirmation, blockers, social transition etc.

For one, treatment involved a psychiatrist who was in charge of gender medicine at  a Children's Hospital. Treatment was psychotherapeutic, with the aim of reducing distress while investigating co-morbid conditions and trauma. Medication for co-morbid conditions once diagnosed (anxiety, ADHD). Otherwise it was watch and wait (most kids desist). Kid is still gender non-conforming (fine) but goal of distress reduction achieved with psychotherapy and improved focus/self esteem re ADHD. No social transition, though language was de-gendered for a while (sibling not brother etc). 

For the other, the diagnosis was part of a larger constellation of mental health issues. Treating psychiatrists considered it socially mediated. No particular treatment, but DBT for other issues reduced disordered thinking  (there was no sig distress).  As adult, is also GNC (butch lesbian). No medical or social interventions required.

All I care about, at core, is that other young people get the chance to access psychotherapeutic support, that they all receive cautious and evidence based treatment, that they make no premature choices which foreclose on adult options, and that they are adults with full cognitive development before they make any such decisions. 

As for adults, I don't care if males present as feminine or females as masculine. I don't mind if trans people hold a literal belief they have changed sex. I don't care if men 'live as women' or women as men. I do care that the concept is sexist, but ignoring that...

I do object to enforced belief in the above, and I don't believe males are actually women or women, men. I don't believe males should be competing in female sports. I don't believe male crimes should be reported as female. I don't believe males should be transferred to women's prisons. I don't believe data should be collected for gender identity in place of sex. I don't believe males have a place working in female rape crisis or dv provision. 

I think non-binary is a fashion, but one that points to significant social problems - intense gendering of men and women (boys and girls) in backlash to the gains of the 70's through to 90's. I don't blame kids who grab onto the identity. In gender terms, I'm non-binary too. 

Zero apologies for any of the above, btw. I'm confident I got my distressed GD kid gold standard care, and I'm also convinced that my stance is reasonable. 

 

 

 

[KSera]

4 minutes ago, Melissa Louise said:

I'm confident I got my distressed GD kid gold standard care,

The care you describe is what I wish was widely available for everyone. I don’t know anyone who has gotten that approach here. 

[Melissa Louise]

3 hours ago, Terabith said:

Yeah, honestly, I'm not sure how it happened, but I have a LOT of close trans/ non binary relationships, and have since college.  My roommate from college is trans.  We are still close and see him often.  My oldest's godmother is trans.  My oldest child is non-binary.  My kids have a number of trans/ non-binary friends.  

I actually have a lot of complicated feelings about my oldest being non-binary, and there's no okay place ever to talk about it.  Most of the trans folks I have known in the past had a life long sense of not being the gender they were assigned at birth.  They all had intense feelings from early childhood.  That was not at all the case for my kid, who changed suddenly when attending public high school.  Before that, they'd been a long hair, ballet, princesses and Barbie uber feminine kid who I actually encouraged to be more balanced, and then overnight it was, "I'm non-binary."  I consulted with all of my trans friends, and with mental health professionals, and everyone was unanimous that the right thing to do was to wholeheartedly support and affirm them, so that's what we've done, but I feel a lot of sadness over legally changing name.  The plan is for them to get top surgery next summer when they're 18, before college, and actually, that feels less problematic to me than the name change.  They have struggled with having boobs pretty much from the beginning, and they are clearly a source of dysphoria.  And, as someone with gigantic boobs who had a breast reduction and would have been just as happy to have had them cut off entirely, other than nursing babies, breasts just piss me off in general.  

I have real questions about the massive uptick in people AFAB who are trans or non-binary.  I have no idea how it is not culturally mediated or a result of internalized misogyny.  It really bothers me that it was, in so many cases, super sudden.  (My oldest's best friend's parents are much less supportive than we are, but this kid honestly has been pretty non-binary since early childhood.)  But all of the expert advice, both from adult trans folks who have lived experience and from doctors and mental health professionals, is to act as if this has been lifelong and support them in the gender identity that they currently affirm, so I'm trying to do that.  

You know this isn't the expert advice though ? Sweden is backing away from affirmation approaches rapidly, and England is too. Because affirmation does not have a robust evidence base. 

It matters less for NB kids, who often avoid medicalization (other than the double mastectomies for some female NB people) but for kids with opposite sex identifications it really matters. 

Big court case in UK recently - treatment accepted to be experimental, with children under 16, and likely between 16 and 18, unable to fully consent to treatment (because of experimental nature). 

It breaks my heart that just following the actual evidence (and lack thereof) is dismissed as transphobic. 

 

 

[Melissa Louise]

1 minute ago, KSera said:

The care you describe is what I wish was widely available for everyone. I don’t know anyone who has gotten that approach here. 

It cost a hell of a lot of money. But it was worth it. I knew that ds had trauma (father had been in ICU and severely ill not long before GD manifested), I knew that he was dealing with some internalized biphobia, and I also knew he was not a girl. There was no way on God's green earth I was just going to affirm him without getting him that treatment to untangle everything. At the very least, psychotherapeutic treatment gets a person in a better place for transitioning, if that's right for them as an adult. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[KSera]

6 minutes ago, Melissa Louise said:

You know this isn't the expert advice though ? Sweden is backing away from affirmation approaches rapidly, and England is too. Because affirmation does not have a robust evidence base. 

It matters less for NB kids, who often avoid medicalization (other than the double mastectomies for some female NB people) but for kids with opposite sex identifications it really matters. 

Big court case in UK recently - treatment accepted to be experimental, with children under 16, and likely between 16 and 18, unable to fully consent to treatment (because of experimental nature). 

It breaks my heart that just following the actual evidence (and lack thereof) is dismissed as transphobic. 

 

 

I think the US is behind Sweden and UK in this. I think the UK and Sweden were earlier in promoting an affirmation only approach, and are now earlier in seeing that it hasn’t worked out the way they thought. The US still seems to be in the affirmation only stage. Like you say, my concern with this is about the kids who start medicalization without further exploration by the professionals entrusted to care for them. 

[Melissa Louise]

1 minute ago, KSera said:

I think the US is behind Sweden and UK in this. I think the UK and Sweden were earlier in promoting an affirmation only approach, and are now earlier in seeing that it hasn’t worked out the way they thought. The US still seems to be in the affirmation only stage. Like you say, my concern with this is about the kids who start medicalization without further exploration by the professionals entrusted to care for them. 

It's interesting, because in my country, it's split by state. My state ( my son's treating team, actually, at the Children's Hospital) have released a position paper in the last month, moving towards the English/Swedish position. My neighbouring state is more US style. Very gung ho. I doubt I could have accessed the same quality of care in that state. 

[1234]

1 hour ago, KSera said:

This is treading in sensitive territory, and I’m not saying for your ds, but in general, I wish professionals would spend some time on the body hatred stuff with young people first, before jumping directly to affirming a different gender identity, because I see a number  of people who have had this come from a place of hating their female body morseo than “identity”, which is a thing females in our society have a lot of issues with in general. 

Oh, I get it. It was about more than just that for him but that was the first, and early, thing we actually noticed. Kindergarten was absolute hell for him because once he was around another large group of kids he thought there was something wrong with him because he didn’t feel like them. The school wanted to have a resource officer force him out of the car for school midway through and I pulled him out and homeschooled. He returned for two years of ps but at a different school. Things only got worse from there though and we did years and years of therapy starting at age seven. He’s been off meds and actually happy since he he came out, so I think this is what’s right for him. I don’t know how I’d feel though if youngest wanted surgery for being non binary. I admit it would be difficult.

Edited June 5, 2021 by Joker2

[Melissa Louise]

The first trans person I met was an adult transitioner, a male. He was also ex's boss. 

I cooked some meals for him after he had surgery. I felt sorry for him because his wife had left, and his adult children were estranged. He was weirdly flirtatious with me, but hey, he was the boss. 

Having read more about the experience of trans widows, I feel a lot of empathy with his ex wife. In retrospect, the boss was likely AGP. His transition dominated the workplace for quite some time. 

[Terabith]

44 minutes ago, Melissa Louise said:

You know this isn't the expert advice though ? Sweden is backing away from affirmation approaches rapidly, and England is too. Because affirmation does not have a robust evidence base. 

It matters less for NB kids, who often avoid medicalization (other than the double mastectomies for some female NB people) but for kids with opposite sex identifications it really matters. 

Big court case in UK recently - treatment accepted to be experimental, with children under 16, and likely between 16 and 18, unable to fully consent to treatment (because of experimental nature). 

It breaks my heart that just following the actual evidence (and lack thereof) is dismissed as transphobic. 

 

 

The issue is that if you are not affirming, there's real odds that you lose your kid (to suicide, or to loss of relationship).  

[Melissa Louise]

Just now, Terabith said:

The issue is that if you are not affirming, there's real odds that you lose your kid (to suicide, or to loss of relationship).  

GIDS in the UK have actually stated that the suicide risk is no greater than that for kids with other mental health conditions, and that suicidality is far from inevitable in this cohort. Also that suicidality, where it is co-morbid, can be treated in much the same way as it is with other conditions - with psychotherapy and sometimes meds. 

The whole 'better a live daughter than a dead son' is....well...again, it's not evidence based. 

I haven't lost the relationship with either of my kids. We've had some tough discussions at times but we're solid. 

Not affirming doesn't mean not taking the distress seriously. 

 

[LMD]

Yes, but I haven't seen her (born male) for about 10 years now, partner of a family member, they broke up but I liked her better... Lovely person, a whole lotta issues, I was quite afraid for her because her male partner was a violent misogynist. She was mostly stealth - asian features and highly feminine dress - the older members of our family didn't really suspect anything. I, and at least 2 other adults, clocked her immediately. We never treated her any differently, she was present and welcome at my children's birthday parties etc. I've encountered a few out and about but just in passing, not relationships though.

I have serious issues with the modern trans ideology and activism. There is a such rigidity and magical thinking. Male and female are sex terms and sex matters in a sexually reproducing species. I'm really concerned actually.

I would be probably 50% less concerned if I encountered coherent and material-world based answers to honest and disquieting questions. The hyper, submit or else, emotional blackmail just reads as abusive to me. 

[AngelaR]

7 hours ago, stripe said:

The other was a VERY outspoken lesbian who suddenly transitioned to a gay male. 

What does this mean?  A lesbian who became a gay male?  So what gender are they attracted to????  I’m so confused!!!

[whitestavern]

Two very good friends have trans children. I don't know any non-binary people. 

[TravelingChris]

2 hours ago, Melissa Louise said:

The first trans person I met was an adult transitioner, a male. He was also ex's boss. 

I cooked some meals for him after he had surgery. I felt sorry for him because his wife had left, and his adult children were estranged. He was weirdly flirtatious with me, but hey, he was the boss. 

Having read more about the experience of trans widows, I feel a lot of empathy with his ex wife. In retrospect, the boss was likely AGP. His transition dominated the workplace for quite some time. 

What does AGP mean?  I looked it up on google but just got Advanced Graphics Protocol and I am fairly sure you don't mean that.

[lauraw4321]

None. When we lived in Seattle, a few, but currently none. As someone who always thought of gender as a *social construct* I struggle. Also, as someone who grew up around racists who would do things like claim to be a person of color (falsely) to mess up statistical analysis, I also struggle. Because when things are 100% subjective, it ignores the problem of the bad actor. And bad actors are real (I'm descended from one). I'm 100% sure that if that bad actor were alive, he'd claim to identify as female (falsely, of course) because he *could.* Just like he claimed to be a person of color. 

Edited June 6, 2021 by lauraw4321
grammar

[Melissa Louise]

11 minutes ago, TravelingChris said:

What does AGP mean?  I looked it up on google but just got Advanced Graphics Protocol and I am fairly sure you don't mean that.

http://www.annelawrence.com/autogynephilia_&_MtF_typology.html

Link is from a scholar who is a transwoman herself. 

[TravelingChris]

2 minutes ago, Melissa Louise said:

http://www.annelawrence.com/autogynephilia_&_MtF_typology.html

Link is from a scholar who is a transwoman herself. 

So are there still men who dress up as women but do not want to call themselves Transwomen?  Because I believe those people had the propensity that you referenced.

[Melissa Louise]

Just now, TravelingChris said:

So are there still men who dress up as women but do not want to call themselves Transwomen?  Because I believe those people had the propensity that you referenced.

No. AGP is distinct from cross dressing. 

[Mrs Tiggywinkle]

I sometimes wonder if a lot of it is backlash against the ridiculous gender stereotyping that goes on.

My 6-year-old has asked since he could speak when he was going to be a girl. He prays that God will turn him into a girl.  He loves everything pink, everything Barbie, music, dance, princesses, beautiful dresses, and makeup. Always has.  So of course other kids tell him he’s dumb for this and should like “boy” things, not “girl” things.  I tell him that there is no reason boys can’t like pink, Barbie, and even wearing beautiful dresses.  For his birthday he got some dresses and wears them to school.  When I ask why he wants to be a girl, it just comes back to he wants to wear beautiful things and has this belief now that boys don’t wear beautiful things.  It isn’t really a deep dislike about being a boy; it’s a cultural construct that boys do these things and girls do other things, like wear makeup and beautiful clothes.  
I really think if we could move past that as a society, there would be a lot less confusion about gender identity.  People could just wear what they want, watch the Barbie TV shows they want, and love princesses or trucks or both.  People could just be who they are without worrying about whether it’s a boy thing or a girl thing.

Just my two cents.  
 

(I also have a daughter who eschews anything girly,  except possibly the later Disney princesses like Moana.  She doesn’t own a single dress or skirt and maybe owns one purple shirt.  For years she wanted her hair in a pixie cut because that’s how she loves it.  That’s cool, too.)

Edited June 6, 2021 by Mrs Tiggywinkle

[LMD]

8 minutes ago, Mrs Tiggywinkle said:

I sometimes wonder if a lot of it is backlash against the ridiculous gender stereotyping that goes on.

My 6-year-old has asked since he could speak when he was going to be a girl. He prays that God will turn him into a girl.  He loves everything pink, everything Barbie, music, dance, princesses, beautiful dresses, and makeup. Always has.  So of course other kids tell him he’s dumb for this and should like “boy” things, not “girl” things.  I tell him that there is no reason boys can’t like pink, Barbie, and even wearing beautiful dresses.  For his birthday he got some dresses and wears them to school.  When I ask why he wants to be a girl, it just comes back to he wants to wear beautiful things and has this belief now that boys don’t wear beautiful things.  It isn’t really a deep dislike about being a boy; it’s a cultural construct that boys do these things and girls do other things, like wear makeup and beautiful clothes.  
I really think if we could move past that as a society, there would be a lot less confusion about gender identity.  People could just wear what they want, watch the Barbie TV shows they want, and love princesses or trucks or both.  People could just be who they are without worrying about whether it’s a boy thing or a girl thing.

Just my two cents.  

I agree, and none of that has any effect on the sex class that our bodies happen to belong to. One of my male children loves pink and purple and rainbows and cars. My female child loves black and blue and red and short hair and make-up. None of their likes/dislikes/discomforts/anxieties/friend groups/online activities/body modifications will change what gametes their body is designed around producing. It's a neutral fact of being a mammal.

[Tanaqui]

Given the extreme radicaliazation and transphobia going on in the UK right now, I'm not looking at the for advice. Like, at all.

And of course I know lots of trans people, because lots of my friends are autistic and we've known for - lemme check my watch - at least the past 20+ years that there is an overlap. (There's also a small, but real, correlation between being transgender/nonbinary and being left-handed. No, I have no idea why that would be.)

As for the supposed high numbers of teens identifying as anything other than cisgender nowadays, I mean, the percentage is still at 2%. That's higher than it used to be, and if you know 100 teens that means you probably know two of them, but... it's not exactly a horde of kids rushing at the doors to get puberty blockers.

[LMD]

1 hour ago, Tanaqui said:

Given the extreme radicaliazation and transphobia going on in the UK right now, I'm not looking at the for advice. Like, at all.

And of course I know lots of trans people, because lots of my friends are autistic and we've known for - lemme check my watch - at least the past 20+ years that there is an overlap. (There's also a small, but real, correlation between being transgender/nonbinary and being left-handed. No, I have no idea why that would be.)

As for the supposed high numbers of teens identifying as anything other than cisgender nowadays, I mean, the percentage is still at 2%. That's higher than it used to be, and if you know 100 teens that means you probably know two of them, but... it's not exactly a horde of kids rushing at the doors to get puberty blockers.

A 4000%+ increase within a decade. What numbers are we allowed to be concerned about?

And, source for the bolded please?

[madteaparty]

I generally have an issue with asking very young children to “identify” as something(and this includes any of the LGBTQ+ categories). I think a couple of the younger generations are all fluid and should be allowed to be wherever they choose on whatever spectrum, and further change from here to there. and asking them to commit one way or another so we can “support” them Is more for our eagerness to be politically correct and “open minded” rather than any real support we provide them.

it’s a different story with young adults who think they’ve landed and need to be supported where they find themselves. 

Edited June 6, 2021 by madteaparty

[regentrude]

Gender identity cannot just be about societal stereotypes. 
There are functional and structural differences between the brains of males and females, and scans have shown that the brains of trans people resemble more closely the brain of a person of the gender they identify with than that of a person of their birth assigned sex.

I believe we are seeing an increase in persons who identify as nonbinary or trans because we finally have a vocabulary to describe what former generations were unable to express succinctly (although humans who lived as non-binary, two-gendered, or trans have always existed). 
 

Edited June 6, 2021 by regentrude

[LMD]

1 minute ago, regentrude said:

Gender identity cannot just be about societal stereotypes. 
There are functional and structural differences between the brains of males and females, and scans have shown that the brains of trans people resemble more closely the brain of a person of the gender they identify with than that of a person of their birth assigned sex.

I believe we are seeing an increase in persons who identify as nonbinary or trans because we finally have a vocabulary to describe what former generations were unable to express succinctly (although humans who lived as non-binary, two-gendered, or trans have always existed). 
 

Would you support brain scans before allowing medical transition?

What studies are you using? Because the brain scan studies I've seen are pretty terrible. Most notably, not controlling for sexual orientation.

[regentrude]

11 minutes ago, LMD said:

Would you support brain scans before allowing medical transition?

What studies are you using? Because the brain scan studies I've seen are pretty terrible. Most notably, not controlling for sexual orientation.

I am not a medical professional and not an expert in medical transitioning, hence I do not know how conclusive a brain scan would be and whether it would be a sensible diagnostic tool.  My sole point was that there are observations that point towards there being an underlying difference in the brain, and not simply a cultural component re behavior stereotypes.

Scientific American had a summary article a few years back which one of my colleagues in biology shared; if you google, there's a bunch of publications whose findings support this (it's been a while that I looked that up, sorry not to have a list of references). As with any medical research on human subjects, I assume sample sizes are notoriously too small to create a robust theory, and more research is needed. However, that does not negate that these effects have been observed and call in question the claim that being trans is just about cultural stereotypes.

 

[Melissa Louise]

15 minutes ago, regentrude said:

Gender identity cannot just be about societal stereotypes. 
There are functional and structural differences between the brains of males and females, and scans have shown that the brains of trans people resemble more closely the brain of a person of the gender they identify with than that of a person of their birth assigned sex.

I believe we are seeing an increase in persons who identify as nonbinary or trans because we finally have a vocabulary to describe what former generations were unable to express succinctly (although humans who lived as non-binary, two-gendered, or trans have always existed). 
 

They really don't. 

Existing studies how that some ppl with a cross-sex identity may have some brains areas similar in some ways to other ppl of the same sex who are homosexual. 

Which isn't at all surprising considering that most children with childhood onset dysphoria desist with watchful waiting, and a high % of them turn out to be gay men and women in adulthood. 

The studies are junk, really. They fail to do things like control for cross sex hormones and for sexual orientation. 

It's not impossible that for some people with GD, there's a neurological cause, but it absolutely remains just a hypothesis as of now. Of course it should be investigated in non-junk studies, because GD is painful, and the more we know, the less harm we can do in alleviating the pain. 

There is no way to diagnose GD through scans. It remains a social/behavioural diagnosis; you cannot look at a brain scan and 'see' transness; the most you can do is show that a gay man and a transwoman might share some common neuro features - no way of knowing if that's standard, or even significant at any level. 

 

 

 

 

[regentrude]

13 minutes ago, Melissa Louise said:

Existing studies how that some ppl with a cross-sex identity may have some brains areas similar in some ways to other ppl of the same sex who are homosexual. 

...

They fail to do things like control for cross sex hormones and for sexual orientation. 

If sexual orientation can be seen in the brain, why not gender identity? (As an aside, sexual orientation, especially in women, can be fluid and change throughout life; does anybody know of brain studies about that?) 

The bolded: cross sex hormones are a biological thing and not social/behavioral. Why would they not affect gender identity? (A hormonal explanation seems to me a perfectly plausible one)

ETA: I know you have researched the topic extensively and come to your conclusions. But so have two of my best friends with transgender kids, and their conclusions ended up different.

Edited June 6, 2021 by regentrude

[Melissa Louise]

Just now, regentrude said:

If sexual orientation can be seen in the brain, why not gender identity? (As an aside, sexual orientation, especially in women, can be fluid and change throughout life; does anybody know of brain studies about that?) 

The bolded: cross sex hormones are a biological thing and not social/behavioral. Why would they not affect gender identity? 

Well, it can't definitively be seen in the brain. You can't scan someone and go 'oh yes, they have the gay brain'. All these studies get at is some correlations sometimes observed. 

It matters, when investigating if there are areas of the brain innately trans, that you know if you are looking at innate neurology (aka born this way) or if you are looking at changes due to taking cross sex hormones ( a drug effect aka not innate). 

These studies, such as they are, have too much noise in them for the overblown claims that have been made on the back of them. 

At this point, after years of learning about gender dysphoria in my own family, with the advantage of being able to discuss things like the above with a pediatric gender team, I'm starting to get really mad at the complete lack of substantiation for many claims made about GD. The level of knowledge is abysmal, the treatment is experimental, and there's a complete deluge of fake news about it. 

GD is a serious condition. It took 18 months away from my teen. He doesn't get that back. We should all be doing a lot better at sorting out fact from fiction, and advocating for care with a robust evidence base! 

 

 

 

[regentrude]

5 minutes ago, Melissa Louise said:

At this point, after years of learning about gender dysphoria in my own family, with the advantage of being able to discuss things like the above with a pediatric gender team, I'm starting to get really mad at the complete lack of substantiation for many claims made about GD. The level of knowledge is abysmal, the treatment is experimental, and there's a complete deluge of fake news about it. 

GD is a serious condition. It took 18 months away from my teen. He doesn't get that back. We should all be doing a lot better at sorting out fact from fiction, and advocating for care with a robust evidence base! 

Absolutely. There needs to be more research. The science on the topic is still in its infancy.
All I know is that my two good friends' adult kids are leading much happier, balanced lives since transitioning (one with hormones; the other just socially). And in the end, that's the goal, right?

Edited June 6, 2021 by regentrude

[Melissa Louise]

5 minutes ago, regentrude said:

Absolutely. There needs to be more research. The science on the topic is still in its infancy.
All I know is that my two good friends' adult kids are leading much happier, balanced lives since transitioning (one with hormones; the other just socially). And in the end, that's the goal, right?

Great. And my kid is doing much better after psychotherapy and treatment for co-morbidities, and no transition. Anecdotes take us nowhere. 

Look, if there was a way to gain a definitive diagnosis through a scan - here's your child's neurological condition - that would be quite a thing. I can tell you, as a parent thinking about agreeing to my minor son going down the route of experimental treatment, a highway that does include risks to sexual function and adult fertility, does include risk of detransition and regret, not to mention the risk of accidentally agreeing to social conversion therapy on a gay kid...well, a scan that can do magic would make that task a LOT easier. 

I'm pretty sick of getting typecast as a TERF in these conversations. I've worked hard to find out as much as I can in order to find the best treatment for my child, and part of that was reading the research and noting the many, many flaws in what cannot be called an evidence base, and the experimental nature of treatment. 

This is a long way from settled science, and in the absence of such, watchful waiting with psychotherapeutic support for minors is the only ethical position I can see. 

So, nothing personal, of course, but the misinformation just gets crazy-making. 

 

[regentrude]

11 minutes ago, Melissa Louise said:

I'm pretty sick of getting typecast as a TERF in these conversations. I've worked hard to find out as much as I can in order to find the best treatment for my child

I hope nothing I wrote suggests that I view you as a TERF. If anything did, I apologize. I understand that you are coming from the pov of a concerned parent and that your decisions and conclusions are valid... as are those of other concerned parents who have done their research and have come to different decisions. 

I don't think anyone is embarking on transitioning willy-nilly without serious thoughts,  exactly because the risks are great  - not just medically; at least in the US, living as trans is very dangerous. I can't imagine anyone risking their lives without serious deliberations.

[Melissa Louise]

Danger differs by demographic. Black, gay, Brazilian sex worker? Yep, you are living with danger. White, straight, in the UK, employed in other industries?? At far less risk of violence than women. 

Parents ARE making decisions on the basis of shoddy science, every day. It's not their fault; I too am susceptible to the messaging (most of it not grounded in data) re suicide. But having good intentions doesn't change the quality of the evidence for the chosen treatment. It is poor. 

 

 

[Spryte]

22 hours ago, prairiewindmomma said:

Do you have, in your circle of relationships, trans or non-binary people?

Relatives?

People you have conversation with who know some degree of detail about your life and you theirs?

(I once saw a trans person or my friend of a friend thing would not fit this.)

I am totally curious about this after reading the pronouns thread. 

Yes.

[MercyA]

20 hours ago, prairiewindmomma said:

There’s a lot of vocabulary that didn’t exist when I grew up...like being Aromantic and Greysexual also. 

Okay, what is the bolded? I'd rather not google.

[Terabith]

2 hours ago, MercyA said:

Okay, what is the bolded? I'd rather not google.

Greysexual just means that you rarely experience sexual attraction or with very low intensity.  It's on the asexuality spectrum. 

[MEmama]

For anyone who needs a simple explanation that sexuality and gender expression are two very different things...

https://www.instagram.com/p/CPyU7aXjCNc/?utm_medium=copy_link

And why it matters. 

 

Edited June 6, 2021 by MEmama

[KSera]

7 hours ago, Melissa Louise said:

Danger differs by demographic. Black, gay, Brazilian sex worker? Yep, you are living with danger. White, straight, in the UK, employed in other industries?? At far less risk of violence than women. 

Parents ARE making decisions on the basis of shoddy science, every day. It's not their fault; I too am susceptible to the messaging (most of it not grounded in data) re suicide. But having good intentions doesn't change the quality of the evidence for the chosen treatment. It is poor. 

Agree on all counts. For the former, this actually was a factor in the plus column for my dc. They feel they’re not a target as a masc nb person. They say they used to hear someone coming behind them and do a mental check of whether they were dressed masculine or feminine, and feel like they were safe if they looked masculine. I do worry, because same dc doesn’t see any reason they would be at increased risk in a men’s locker room, but as their parent, I can’t help but worry about how they could be treated by men in a restroom or locker room 😢. This is the reverse of the typical trans bathroom stuff—it’s my trans kid I’m worried about, not the other way around.  Covid has fortunately prevented that from being a thing for them yet. 

[1234]

12 minutes ago, KSera said:

Agree on all counts. For the former, this actually was a factor in the plus column for my dc. They feel they’re not a target as a masc nb person. They say they used to hear someone coming behind them and do a mental check of whether they were dressed masculine or feminine, and feel like they were safe if they looked masculine. I do worry, because same dc doesn’t see any reason they would be at increased risk in a men’s locker room, but as their parent, I can’t help but worry about how they could be treated by men in a restroom or locker room 😢. This is the reverse of the typical trans bathroom stuff—it’s my trans kid I’m worried about, not the other way around.  Covid has fortunately prevented that from being a thing for them yet. 

I was terrified when Ds told me he had started using the boys bathroom in high school. We live in a really conservative, sports are everything, area but fortunately nothing physical ever happened to him in a bathroom. He was assaulted last year for being trans but it was in broad daylight with other people around. Now I’m just scared for him all the time. 

[LucyStoner]

Yes, I have multiple family members and friends who are trans adults.  My younger brother transitioned (FTM) 20 years ago this summer. 

Among my nieces and nephews ages 12-19 at this moment in time literally all of them are identifying as trans and none of them experienced gender dysphoria prior to puberty.  As supportive of trans people as I am, I would be remiss to not notice how much has changed in the last 5 years and to be somewhat skeptical of the very large numbers in young people.  Each of my nieces and nephew are at different schools and most and in some cases *all* of their distinct and large friend groups are identifying as trans.  My brother is similarly skeptical and very much opposes a shift to less therapy for trans people and medicalization based on self dx and informed consent alone, especially for very young people.  

The umbrella of what trans is has rapidly expanded. The data is not great or anywhere near complete and unfortunately it’s politicized to the point where I am unsure we will see truly useful data anytime soon.  

Edited June 6, 2021 by LucyStoner

[Melissa Louise]

43 minutes ago, KSera said:

Agree on all counts. For the former, this actually was a factor in the plus column for my dc. They feel they’re not a target as a masc nb person. They say they used to hear someone coming behind them and do a mental check of whether they were dressed masculine or feminine, and feel like they were safe if they looked masculine. I do worry, because same dc doesn’t see any reason they would be at increased risk in a men’s locker room, but as their parent, I can’t help but worry about how they could be treated by men in a restroom or locker room 😢. This is the reverse of the typical trans bathroom stuff—it’s my trans kid I’m worried about, not the other way around.  Covid has fortunately prevented that from being a thing for them yet. 

I understand your concern. 

I remember years ago having a very frustrated convo with now desisted adult child, trying to explain that not being feminine didn't mean she had to self exclude from a space which is statistically safer for her. 

We are very lucky to live in a city which now provides a lot of gender neutral single loos, in addition to single sex and disabled facilities. I encouraged both kids to use the gender neutral ones - lockable, floor to ceiling doors, wash basin etc inside. I'm a big fan of adding provision. 

[LucyStoner]

9 hours ago, regentrude said:

I hope nothing I wrote suggests that I view you as a TERF. If anything did, I apologize. I understand that you are coming from the pov of a concerned parent and that your decisions and conclusions are valid... as are those of other concerned parents who have done their research and have come to different decisions. 

I don't think anyone is embarking on transitioning willy-nilly without serious thoughts,  exactly because the risks are great  - not just medically; at least in the US, living as trans is very dangerous. I can't imagine anyone risking their lives without serious deliberations.

Unfortunately recently I have been made very aware of how easy it is to start the process of medical transition.  At least where I am, it is an exception rather than a rule that the WPATH standards of care for transition medicine are being followed.  That’s not just my opinion, it’s what I’ve been told by pediatricians, counselors and an endocrinologist.  

Finding a counselor that will dig into the issues rather than rubber stamp a self dx is hard.  I know people who have medicalized transitions without sufficient therapy.  The number of detransitioners (anecdotally and from researching the topic more) seems to be increasing.  I don’t think that anyone is well served by these changes- not trans people, and not people who may mistake their other issues for gender dysphoria.  

Edited June 6, 2021 by LucyStoner

[KSera]

1 hour ago, LucyStoner said:

10 hours ago, regentrude said:

 

Unfortunately recently I have been made very aware of how easy it is to start the process of medical transition.  At least where I am, it is an exception rather than a rule that the WPATH standards of care for transition medicine are being followed.  That’s not just my opinion, it’s what I’ve been told by pediatricians, counselors and an endocrinologist.  

I can back that up first hand from where I am. It was a trivial matter to get approval here.