Teaching Math Students to show their work and seek right answers = White Supremacy?!!

[Not_a_Number]

2 hours ago, daijobu said:

I skimmed over the paper, and my thought was that if a teacher is going to entertain students who arrive at alternative methods or algorithms or even different answers in a way that respects the student, then that teacher needs to be fully 100% confident in their mathematics.  

Too often, teachers see the work written by a student, and it isn't the way the teacher taught it, so the student is counted wrong.  Only with a strong understanding of mathematics can the teacher read and understand where the student was waylaid can they point out what the student got right or find something positive to say about the approach.  

I think in order to implement these principles, teachers need to be better trained in mathematics.  How many teachers can explain other bases, like 12 or binary, let alone base 10?  I think the number of teachers who understand base 10 is very small.    

Exactly. You've hit the nail on the head. I think that in theory, some of these principles are very helpful. In practice, though, when implemented by teachers who aren't trained in mathematics, they may wind up being worse than nothing. Not only will the students not be taught concepts (because the teacher doesn't know them!), but they won't even be taught life skills like writing down their work or procedural skills like algorithms. Or perhaps, in the name of "fostering diversity" and "centering the learner," the students will be asked to teach each other instead of being taught by a teacher... which is, again, something that can work very well in a classroom guided by an expert, but can look like useless chaos in a classroom that is not. 

By the way, between the "Pythagorean's theorem" quote and the fact that they made a distinction between binary and base 2, I have a strong suspicion that at least some of the people who wrote this document are not particularly mathematically literate. 

[daijobu]

4 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

By the way, between the "Pythagorean's theorem" quote and the fact that they made a distinction between binary and base 2, I have a strong suspicion that at least some of the people who wrote this document are not particularly mathematically literate. 

Ah, this reminds me of one of my favorite MWBD: US versus UK terminology.

Whereas Americans refer to “The Pythagorean Theorem,” the British simply invoke “Pythagoras.”

The British version is less of a mouthful, I suppose. It’s also wonderfully insane: When you say, “We can solve this using Pythagoras,” you’re effectively suggesting that a Greek man who’s been dead for 2500 years will personally stop by to help solve your math problem.

[Not_a_Number]

1 minute ago, daijobu said:

Ah, this reminds me of one of my favorite MWBD: US versus UK terminology.

Whereas Americans refer to “The Pythagorean Theorem,” the British simply invoke “Pythagoras.”

The British version is less of a mouthful, I suppose. It’s also wonderfully insane: When you say, “We can solve this using Pythagoras,” you’re effectively suggesting that a Greek man who’s been dead for 2500 years will personally stop by to help solve your math problem.

I say the British version, lol! I've read that post before, so I don't even have to click it 😄. 

It might be because I'm Canadian... 

[EKS]

4 hours ago, Not_a_Number said:

By the way, between the "Pythagorean's theorem" quote and the fact that they made a distinction between binary and base 2, I have a strong suspicion that at least some of the people who wrote this document are not particularly mathematically literate. 

This.  

[Farrar]

I really, really want to support the work of people who are trying to decolonize school academics and make learning more accessible and aware for all people... but honestly, it makes me nuts that they don't seem to ever have actual academics skilled in their disciplines involved. Like, this has been a huge issue in history lately. Like, there are real BIPOC historians who are doing this work. You making up your own version and bad talking historians in general in order to go about "fixing" K12 academics is not going to fix much when you only have secondhand knowledge of what you're talking about. I'm sure there are BIPOC mathematicians who could have helped with this and made it more effective for both actual math that would benefit all students and specifically students who deserve to have racism not reflected in their math curricula or their math teachers' assumptions.

ETA: Adding that looking at the bios, they have a ton of people who have real expertise in math education and a ton of math teaching experience (though they have a lot more people who have their primary experience as education consultants and administrators). I don't really understand how they could have as many confusing math errors as have been pointed out in quotes in this. Or to have failed to convey a meaningful reason for some of the things they have. Like, if they can't convince me, who is pretty primed to accept their reasoning - and I do accept many of their primary points - then they probably haven't done a great job on some level.

Edited February 17, 2021 by Farrar

[City Mouse]

This PBS new video popped up on my YouTube feed today, and it made me think about this thread. While it doesn’t call math racist, it does address issues of minorities and math. 

 

[Not_a_Number]

44 minutes ago, City Mouse said:

This PBS new video popped up on my YouTube feed today, and it made me think about this thread. While it doesn’t call math racist, it does address issues of minorities and math. 

 

It does seem grossly unfair that some kids get to college so poorly prepared they have very little chance to pass algebra 😞 .

[daijobu]

At the other end of the spectrum is the US IMO team.  Here's a recent interview with Po Shen Loh (x-posted from WTM math interest group):

https://www.quantamagazine.org/po-shen-loh-led-the-u-s-math-team-back-to-first-place-20210216

Some interesting quotes:

'In improv the principle is if you start doing something, you’re not supposed to suddenly go and say, “Oh, no, sorry, that was wrong.” Solving a math problem, it’s also the same. You can’t just sit there and say: “I don’t know if this idea will work. I don’t know if that idea will work. I’m not going to try any idea.” No, you’ve got to dive in. You have to already have the attitude that “I don’t know where this idea is taking me, but I’m going to push it all the way through.”'

"Mathematics is the heart of what helps people think. If you want to live in as reasonable a society as possible, it helps if everyone’s comfortable reasoning. And I’m not talking about mathematics from the point of view of sines and cosines. I’m just referring to mathematics from the point of view of logic. But it’s hard to learn logic in a vacuum. "

[stripe]

Navajo Math Circles is an example of giving underrepresented students access to clear instruction via great resources and qualified mathematicians.

https://navajomathcircles.org

[daijobu]

Here's a good example of using different methods to solve problems.  Po Shen Loh is not showing us the most obvious straightforward solution (probably because that's how most of the MathCounts students solved it) but using a different approach to help us enjoy the problem more.

This flexible approach is only possible if the teacher has had fairly extensive training.  It's unfortunate that this sort of education is reserved for the best students not ones who struggle.  

[EKS]

1 hour ago, stripe said:

Navajo Math Circles is an example of giving underrepresented students access to clear instruction via great resources and qualified mathematicians.

https://navajomathcircles.org

This is awesome.  What a difference there is between the message that Navajo Math Circles is sending and the one that the Equitable Math people are sending.   

[LostintheCosmos]

1 hour ago, stripe said:

Navajo Math Circles is an example of giving underrepresented students access to clear instruction via great resources and qualified mathematicians.

https://navajomathcircles.org

Another neat program aimed at underserved students is BEAM (Bridge to Enter Advanced Mathematics).

Edited February 17, 2021 by LostCove

[Ausmumof3]

On 2/17/2021 at 3:09 AM, Clemsondana said:

Is 'Show your work to get a good grade' a thing that is commonly said?  I tell my kids 'Show your work so that if there's a mistake it's easy to find' and 'Show your work so that I can see what you DO know even if you don't know how to do it all'.  

The show your work thing is fascinating because I had a college prof who wouldn't help unless you had something written down.  It could be a drawing, a list, an equation, anything to show that you had started on the question/problem.  I thought he was nuts until I realized how often just getting something down on paper led me most of the way towards an answer, and if I went off the rails somewhere then it was easy enough for him to see what the problem was.  I'm not exaggerating when I say that it changed how I do any difficult academics - reading papers, how I planned experiments and made models back when I was in the lab, how I approach math that I've forgotten when I need to help my kids - so I'm intrigued at the idea of helping kids by giving the exact opposite advice.  

This is intriguing!  This is 100pc true for me as well and I realised it’s my frustration with oldest who hates to right more than absolutely necessary.  

[Ausmumof3]

On 2/17/2021 at 10:01 AM, daijobu said:

Ah, this reminds me of one of my favorite MWBD: US versus UK terminology.

Whereas Americans refer to “The Pythagorean Theorem,” the British simply invoke “Pythagoras.”

The British version is less of a mouthful, I suppose. It’s also wonderfully insane: When you say, “We can solve this using Pythagoras,” you’re effectively suggesting that a Greek man who’s been dead for 2500 years will personally stop by to help solve your math problem.

Oh yes.  We definitely just say “use Pythagorus” down here.  One of the things I’ve found harder teaching my kids with American math books is the focus on vocabulary and names of rules etc.  

[drjuliadc]

What country uses the term “don’t throw the baby UP with the bath water?” I am going to replace the usual phrase with that now. 

 

I always say, “I’ll jump off that bridge when I come to it,” to reflect my generally overwhelmed state.

[Not_a_Number]

35 minutes ago, drjuliadc said:

What country uses the term “don’t throw the baby UP with the bath water?” I am going to replace the usual phrase with that now. 

Oh, lol!! I really need to read my responses over. I'm generally over-automated with my typing -- I  type at something like 100 WPM, but I will sometimes type phrases and sentences I didn't mean to, because they seem to naturally flow out of my fingers whether I want them to or not. So then I tend to need to edit, and clearly I forgot. 

 

35 minutes ago, drjuliadc said:

I always say, “I’ll jump off that bridge when I come to it,” to reflect my generally overwhelmed state.

We say "I'll burn that bridge when I get to it," so I guess we aren't the only ones who mangle that one intentionally! 

[drjuliadc]

I figured it was a typo. It made me laugh really hard.

[Not_a_Number]

1 hour ago, drjuliadc said:

I figured it was a typo. It made me laugh really hard.

Hah, so at least it was good for something! 

[caffeineandbooks]

I had an oddly similar experience recently.  I'm taking a sign language course and when somebody asked if the training organisation was going to fix all the grammatical and spelling errors in the material, the response was that for a hearing person to do so would be to disempower Deaf people.  The important thing is that everything is done wholly by deaf people, not that everything is done to a generally accepted standard of accuracy.  I don't get it.  Surely it's more disempowering to assume that deaf people are not capable of learning to the same standard as everyone else if taught?

[caffeineandbooks]

On 2/19/2021 at 7:59 AM, Ausmumof3 said:

One of the things I’ve found harder teaching my kids with American math books is the focus on vocabulary and names of rules etc.  

Right?!  I use the commutative and distributive property all the time, but I was a homeschool parent before I knew they had names! 😄

[kristin0713]

1 hour ago, caffeineandbooks said:

I had an oddly similar experience recently.  I'm taking a sign language course and when somebody asked if the training organisation was going to fix all the grammatical and spelling errors in the material, the response was that for a hearing person to do so would be to disempower Deaf people.  The important thing is that everything is done wholly by deaf people, not that everything is done to a generally accepted standard of accuracy.  I don't get it.  Surely it's more disempowering to assume that deaf people are not capable of learning to the same standard as everyone else if taught?

I have been following this thread with interest and I just have to chime in regarding this.  As a (former) Teacher of the Deaf/HH and an ASL interpreter, I can tell you that things with the Deaf Community are complicated.  First, it is extremely hard to teach reading and writing to kids who can't hear.  Spoken language is developed in the brain initially by hearing it.  So when typically developing hearing kids learn to read and write, they are starting with a solid auditory language base.  Deaf kids do not have this.  If they have Deaf parents, they are fortunate enough to have immediate exposure to a visual language, and they can later learn a written language with more ease from that starting point.  (Most children with hearing loss have hearing parents, though.) So it is not that easy to just hold them to "the same standard as everyone else if taught".  They are essentially ESL learners for their entire lives who can't even hear the language they are trying to learn.  Second, the Deaf Community has established for themselves a culture where they very much value *not* being dependent on hearing people.  They do not view themselves as disabled; they take pride in their language, their community, and their history of overcoming oppression and adversity.  Yeah, their English is not going to be grammatically perfect. That's ok.  They would rather do it themselves than have to have someone do it for them or fix everything for them.  Does that make sense?  

[ieta_cassiopeia]

On 2/21/2021 at 12:39 AM, caffeineandbooks said:

I had an oddly similar experience recently.  I'm taking a sign language course and when somebody asked if the training organisation was going to fix all the grammatical and spelling errors in the material, the response was that for a hearing person to do so would be to disempower Deaf people.  The important thing is that everything is done wholly by deaf people, not that everything is done to a generally accepted standard of accuracy.  I don't get it.  Surely it's more disempowering to assume that deaf people are not capable of learning to the same standard as everyone else if taught?

I think one potential factor is that the specific person/people who prepared the material might feel stepped over if other people end up correcting them, especially if those people are from a group that have historically abused the power they had over people in their community. If that feeling kicks in before the preparers even find out the proposed point of improvement, they won't receive it; they're still processing emotional fallout. If the preparer does not receive feedback, they can't act on it, which in turn prevents them from improving from that specific piece of feedback.

It might perhaps be better to say "The important thing is that feedback is done in an effective way, and you/we are not currently in a position to provide that for these specific preparers on this specific point". As @kristin0713 states, there are other factors involved here as well about how the community works that would impede a hearing person outside the community's ability to give feedback that would be accepted in the spirit intended.

Similar things happen in many different minority communities (and learning situations in general - how often do school essay markers ignore some weakness in a student's craft because that student isn't ready to receive that feedback yet, especially in places where an antagonistic relationship exists between students and staff?). It doesn't necessarily have anything to do with whose implementation is more accurate/better, or (for the point I added) in suggesting anything about the group as a whole - just the needs of the particular person/people involved with that specific material.

Edited February 23, 2021 by ieta_cassiopeia

[Roadrunner]

This is the answer from a conservative publisher to ethnocentric math. I couldn’t have said it better.

https://mises.org/wire/math-racist-does-not-compute
 

There is nothing more racist than to assumed my brown children need color proofed version of mathematics or any other subject. It’s divisive and very insulting frankly. 
 

[Not_a_Number]

1 minute ago, Roadrunner said:

There is nothing more racist than to assumed my brown children need color proofed version of mathematics or any other subject. It’s divisive and very insulting frankly. 

I mean, I can understand wanting problems in which everyone isn't named "Bob" or "Mark" or something super white America-centric. It does make feel feel detached and excluded when the subject doesn't feel in any way related to their lives. 

The "objectivity" thing is bunkum, of course. 

[Roadrunner]

2 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

I mean, I can understand wanting problems in which everyone isn't named "Bob" or "Mark" or something super white America-centric. It does make feel feel detached and excluded when the subject doesn't feel in any way related to their lives. 

The "objectivity" thing is bunkum, of course. 

I wish it was about all about names. It’s not.

And come to think of it, I don’t even care about names. We have used enough foreign material. 

Edited February 23, 2021 by Roadrunner

[Not_a_Number]

5 minutes ago, Roadrunner said:

I wish it was about all about names. It’s not.

Oh, I read it. I know that it isn't just about that, and some of the other stuff is truly gross. 

 

5 minutes ago, Roadrunner said:

And come to think of it, I don’t even care about names. We have used enough foreign material. 

You aren't the intended audience of students who feel very removed from the material. 

[vonfirmath]

On 2/16/2021 at 2:30 PM, daijobu said:

I skimmed over the paper, and my thought was that if a teacher is going to entertain students who arrive at alternative methods or algorithms or even different answers in a way that respects the student, then that teacher needs to be fully 100% confident in their mathematics.  

Too often, teachers see the work written by a student, and it isn't the way the teacher taught it, so the student is counted wrong.  Only with a strong understanding of mathematics can the teacher read and understand where the student was waylaid can they point out what the student got right or find something positive to say about the approach.  

I think in order to implement these principles, teachers need to be better trained in mathematics.  How many teachers can explain other bases, like 12 or binary, let alone base 10?  I think the number of teachers who understand base 10 is very small.    

I remember learning how to convert numbers into other bases as one of the highlights of a VERY boring 7th grade year.  It felt like everything was just rework. But in retrospect -- bases also helps you cement how numbers work as well and I'm wondering why they don't teach it earlier!

 

[Not_a_Number]

1 hour ago, vonfirmath said:

I remember learning how to convert numbers into other bases as one of the highlights of a VERY boring 7th grade year.  It felt like everything was just rework. But in retrospect -- bases also helps you cement how numbers work as well and I'm wondering why they don't teach it earlier!

I taught DD8 different bases at age 5 or 6, lol!! It was a really great experience. She still loves binary. 

[daijobu]

2 hours ago, vonfirmath said:

I remember learning how to convert numbers into other bases as one of the highlights of a VERY boring 7th grade year.  It felt like everything was just rework. But in retrospect -- bases also helps you cement how numbers work as well and I'm wondering why they don't teach it earlier!

 

Number Theory and Counting/Probability get short shrift in the American math curricula.  

 

BTW, for more info about equity in math education, you can check out this organization.

[Dmmetler]

On 2/23/2021 at 11:12 AM, Not_a_Number said:

I mean, I can understand wanting problems in which everyone isn't named "Bob" or "Mark" or something super white America-centric. It does make feel feel detached and excluded when the subject doesn't feel in any way related to their lives. 

The "objectivity" thing is bunkum, of course. 

My problem is that I've seen too many times (teaching in urban schools) where well meaning teachers try to make the material relevant, and end up hitting a lot of stereotypes. The absolute worst was when every school in the district had to have a model, and mine was assigned "Accelerated Learning", which is a framework where everyone in the school studies the same history timeline (fine) and EVERYTHING is supposed to relate to that timeline. I saw so many kids bring worksheets to me when I was doing math pullouts where the efforts to make them connected to the history ended up really, really pulling in material that was pretty horrid. Some were just humorously bad, some were horrid enough that if social media had been a thing, they probably would have gone viral. I don't think any of them would have made kids feel that the content was more relatable. 

 

[Not_a_Number]

3 minutes ago, Dmmetler said:

My problem is that I've seen too many times (teaching in urban schools) where well meaning teachers try to make the material relevant, and end up hitting a lot of stereotypes. The absolute worst was when every school in the district had to have a model, and mine was assigned "Accelerated Learning", which is a framework where everyone in the school studies the same history timeline (fine) and EVERYTHING is supposed to relate to that timeline. I saw so many kids bring worksheets to me when I was doing math pullouts where the efforts to make them connected to the history ended up really, really pulling in material that was pretty horrid. Some were just humorously bad, some were horrid enough that if social media had been a thing, they probably would have gone viral. I don't think any of them would have made kids feel that the content was more relatable. 

Ooooh. I can absolutely imagine that misfiring really, really, really badly. 

But then good intentions really do pave the road to you-know-where with surprising frequency.