Gingsburg and Scalia friendship

[Ottakee]

This article sums up a lot of what I am thinking. Scalia and Gingsburg friendship

They were on very opposite sides of many issues yet they were friends.  They respected each other and even considered the others point of view.  They said they learned from each other and that shaped who they were.

I see that as so lacking in today's politics.  It is like a blood bath on both sides vs. respectful disagreement where each side holds to their beliefs but also willing to listen to the other side and learn from them.

Any thoughts, debate, etc?

[frogger]

I will start by saying politics has always been somewhat of a bloodbath but I think that the discord has reached into the rest of society. I think there are multiple reasons for this.

One is social media which allows you to preach to the choir more and makes your opponent you're nasty to just a faceless avatar.

Second, our politics are increasingly lining up with other demographics such as geography, which church we attend,  or other activities we do so we don't see as many people who think differently, politically speaking and I don't think this was always the case. 

This makes the other side not real. It's not sweet Aunt Mary who always brings cookies disagrees with me, it's framed more as this evil group whose goal is to destroy America.

I do see more and more people recognizing this and starting to pull back though so maybe there is hope. 

[Pawz4me]

I have, or at least think I have, no problem at all liking and respecting people who have well reasoned, well thought out differences of opinion from my own that aren't rooted in hatred for another group (which I am positive was the case with RGB and Scalia). Unfortunately, what I see in real life are people whose political points of view are shallow and lack reasoning at best, and at worst are based on hatred, verifiable falsehoods and/or conspiracy theories.

I kind of hate to post that, because it sounds too contentious in what should be a more positive or healing (for lack of a better word) thread.

I know some members here think there are pile ons and worse, but what I personally "see" on this forum are people disagreeing, but being (mostly) respectful because the overwhelming majority of opinions are well reasoned and thought out. I totally respect that, and I wish I had more of it in real life.

[Beth S]

"Some things are more important than votes."  👍

Edited September 21, 2020 by Beth S

[kbutton]

2 hours ago, Pawz4me said:

Unfortunately, what I see in real life are people whose political points of view are shallow and lack reasoning at best, and at worst are based on hatred, verifiable falsehoods and/or conspiracy theories.

I kind of hate to post that, because it sounds too contentious in what should be a more positive or healing (for lack of a better word) thread.

Yes, at least locally to me and on FB.

It hasn't always been this way. My very first job out of college was with a group of people who'd worked together for a very long time in an industry where that was uncommon. They talked about everything, but especially religion and politics, and it was a wonderful environment to learn and think. The truly ruffled feathers were few and far between. 

[Bootsie]

I had the opportunity to meet bot Gingsburg and Scalia (on different occasions)--I hadn't really thought about that until reading this.  Although the appointment to the Supreme Court is made by a politician with political motives, the Supreme Court justices should (at least theoretically) be removed from politics--hence the life-time appointment.  I think what you see here is an example of how that works.  Gingsburg and Scalia were not concerned about the politics of the situations they were examining; they were not fighting for power or control; they were concerned about justice and logic.  They could come to different conclusions but each had the skills to communicate a well-developed argument and each had the skill to listen to the other's argument.  I think another important quality they possessed was the desire to continue to learn and continue to be challenged.  

[frogger]

4 hours ago, Pawz4me said:

I have, or at least think I have, no problem at all liking and respecting people who have well reasoned, well thought out differences of opinion from my own that aren't rooted in hatred for another group (which I am positive was the case with RGB and Scalia). Unfortunately, what I see in real life are people whose political points of view are shallow and lack reasoning at best, and at worst are based on hatred, verifiable falsehoods and/or conspiracy theories.

I kind of hate to post that, because it sounds too contentious in what should be a more positive or healing (for lack of a better word) thread.

I know some members here think there are pile ons and worse, but what I personally "see" on this forum are people disagreeing, but being (mostly) respectful because the overwhelming majority of opinions are well reasoned and thought out. I totally respect that, and I wish I had more of it in real life.

I agree.

It is impossible to argue with someones feelings or their "gut".  I agree. I see so many sharing and liking articles that contain few facts but a whole bunch of anger. You can't discuss reasonably with anger. It won't work.  I don't even try. 

[Ottakee]

11 minutes ago, frogger said:

I agree.

It is impossible to argue with someones feelings or their "gut".  I agree. I see so many sharing and liking articles that contain few facts but a whole bunch of anger. You can't discuss reasonably with anger. It won't work.  I don't even try. 

Yes.  People don't want to discuss facts and ideas....now it is more just throwing around of emotionally charged memes and posts.

[Carol in Cal.]

21 minutes ago, Ottakee said:

Yes.  People don't want to discuss facts and ideas....now it is more just throwing around of emotionally charged memes and posts.

Worse, a lot of people don’t seem to be able to or inclined to distinguish facts from opinions.

[Guest]

7 hours ago, Ottakee said:

This article sums up a lot of what I am thinking. Scalia and Gingsburg friendship

They were on very opposite sides of many issues yet they were friends.  They respected each other and even considered the others point of view.  They said they learned from each other and that shaped who they were.

I see that as so lacking in today's politics.  It is like a blood bath on both sides vs. respectful disagreement where each side holds to their beliefs but also willing to listen to the other side and learn from them.

Any thoughts, debate, etc?

I’ve been thinking about this too, and how much this is lacking in the overall nation. 

I’m still developing my thoughts on it, but I think some of it has to do with intelligent positions, something I believe is lacking on the whole. So, for example, if someone who holds a very different view of something than I do were able to articulate a rational and well-founded reason why they believe as they do, and they can express that without anger and bitterness all tied up in their position, then I’m betting we can live in harmony despite having different beliefs. Kind of like how I have felt being friends with a religious Jew, for example. 

[Rosie_0801]

I don't think our societies are very good at platonic love, particularly between the sexes.

[Denise Still in Florida]

I found this article about the Scalia/Ginsburg friendship really touching

https://www.deseret.com/opinion/2020/9/18/21446272/ruth-bader-ginsburg-rbg-died-pancreatic-cancer-scalia-friends-disagree-better

"Ginsburg showed in her relationship and friendship with Scalia that unity and harmony in the United States had little to do with disagreeing less; it was really about learning to disagree better. America is at its best when it is a country of big ideas, competing philosophies and respectful debate."

 

 

[Frances]

16 hours ago, frogger said:

I will start by saying politics has always been somewhat of a bloodbath but I think that the discord has reached into the rest of society. I think there are multiple reasons for this.

One is social media which allows you to preach to the choir more and makes your opponent you're nasty to just a faceless avatar.

Second, our politics are increasingly lining up with other demographics such as geography, which church we attend,  or other activities we do so we don't see as many people who think differently, politically speaking and I don't think this was always the case. 

This makes the other side not real. It's not sweet Aunt Mary who always brings cookies disagrees with me, it's framed more as this evil group whose goal is to destroy America.

I do see more and more people recognizing this and starting to pull back though so maybe there is hope. 

I agree. And I would add to that the proliferation of media sources, especially more biased ones. It’s no longer the case that the majority of people are watching the same nightly news cast. Now, if they choose to, people can totally live in a bubble of news and social media that conforms to their pre-existing beliefs.

[Bootsie]

36 minutes ago, Frances said:

I agree. And I would add to that the proliferation of media sources, especially more biased ones. It’s no longer the case that the majority of people are watching the same nightly news cast. Now, if they choose to, people can totally live in a bubble of news and social media that conforms to their pre-existing beliefs.

I find the number of opinion pieces and advertisements masquerading as news alarming.  Last week I was looking at the "breaking news" feed on Marketwatch.com and realized that one of the news stories was an advertisement not a news story.  This is a site of Dow Jones--publisher of the Wall Street Journal and Barron's.  Once you clicked onto the "story" and read it to the bottom it was marked as an advertisement of a product that they thought their readers would really want to know about.  

[Liz CA]

12 hours ago, Ottakee said:

Yes.  People don't want to discuss facts and ideas....now it is more just throwing around of emotionally charged memes and posts.

This...and what you first said in the OP. I regularly bemoan the fact on his board that we seem to have lost the ability to respect opposing viewpoints and the ability to civilly discuss without a thread going south and getting locked or someone even getting banned. 

These two were a good example of an era when people still had basic respect for another human, regardless of political leanings and opinions. They also were not of the "internet ad hominem attack" generation because, I am willing to bet, they still had learned how to debate the issue and not aim at humiliating another person.

Edited September 22, 2020 by Liz CA

[Rosie_0801]

49 minutes ago, Liz CA said:

This...and what you first said in the OP. I regularly bemoan the fact on his board that we seem to have lost the ability to respect opposing viewpoints and the ability to civilly discuss without a thread going south and getting locked or someone even getting banned. 

These two were a good example of an era when people still had basic respect for another human, regardless of political leanings and opinions. They also were not of the "internet ad hominem attack" generation because, I am willing to bet, they still had learned how to debate the issue and not aim at humiliating another person.

That ability is not entirely lost. You'd be surprised how many threads don't get reported. 😄
(The board went through a very sensitive phase where mere disagreement was taken as personal abuse a signifiant amount of the time, but there's not a lot of that any more and hasn't been for a few years.)

[Shoeless]

2 hours ago, Bootsie said:

I find the number of opinion pieces and advertisements masquerading as news alarming.  Last week I was looking at the "breaking news" feed on Marketwatch.com and realized that one of the news stories was an advertisement not a news story.  This is a site of Dow Jones--publisher of the Wall Street Journal and Barron's.  Once you clicked onto the "story" and read it to the bottom it was marked as an advertisement of a product that they thought their readers would really want to know about.  

 

This has bothered me for years.  I started noticing these shady, tabloid type ads on sites like CNN and the weather channel several years ago, and wondered why the heck they'd want to associate themselves with that sort of nonsense.  Now it's everywhere. "America's Top GI Doctor Says 'I beg all Americans to throw out this vegetable now!'", and then there's a weird, unfocused picture of something that may or may not be a vegetable.  Ugh.

Apparently, this type of advertising is called a  "chumbox".  

[Amy in NH]

16 hours ago, Frances said:

I agree. And I would add to that the proliferation of media sources, especially more biased ones. It’s no longer the case that the majority of people are watching the same nightly news cast. Now, if they choose to, people can totally live in a bubble of news and social media that conforms to their pre-existing beliefs.

Not to mention the fact that Reagan gutted the law that required fair and unbiased reporting in news, opening the door for opinion-based "news" entertainment, and Congress no longer "lives" together in the sense that they used to before the sessions were shortened.

[J-rap]

On 9/21/2020 at 11:46 PM, Bootsie said:

I find the number of opinion pieces and advertisements masquerading as news alarming.  Last week I was looking at the "breaking news" feed on Marketwatch.com and realized that one of the news stories was an advertisement not a news story.  This is a site of Dow Jones--publisher of the Wall Street Journal and Barron's.  Once you clicked onto the "story" and read it to the bottom it was marked as an advertisement of a product that they thought their readers would really want to know about.  

I agree about newspaper articles masquerading as straight news.  Even our own city newspaper (whose political leanings I tend to agree with) sometimes writes articles now that when I re-read them again, I notice they purposely only use certain adjectives that very subtly push a certain reaction/conclusion.  It's very disappointing.