Question about sending my homeschooled son to public school

[raindrops]

I feel like I need some direction from a much older and wiser board member.  I don’t know what to do about my son.  I’m homeschooling him, and he’s “repeating” 3rd grade.  He presents as very young for a 10 year old, socially and emotionally.  He recently scored low on his math and writing, and his working memory and processing speed for a test from the school psychologist.  I just don’t know whether to keep trying to work with him at home or send him to school where he can potentially have more “supports”.   The psychologist says he’s “overall average”..., and may be able to get some instructional support... or maybe even go the CSE route if necessary—but she didn’t feel it was yet.  She thinks he’s a late bloomer, and will be a successful person at some point way down the road...  and kind of encouraged me to keep homeschooling while saying choosing to place him in school would help him grow socially as well...  I just don’t know what to do.  I’m kind of frustrated with his lack of cooperation and very young behaviors, but I don’t want him to completely fail and flounder in the public school....

[Lang Syne Boardie]

What other resources are available to you, in the community, for social growth and challenges to move toward maturity, in safe settings? 

I agree with the psychologist that he should be homeschooled while also having access to settings that will help him grow socially. (It sounds like that's what she's saying -- that homeschooling is good for him, but the one possible benefit of school would be social growth. If that's the case, find that benefit and meet that need elsewhere, if you can!)

Because I agree with this philosophy, it is the route I took for my late bloomers (who are now adults). I do not regret it. I would absolutely homeschool them again.

[maize]

My own experience has been that school socialization and school supports are in no way a guarantee of progress for a child. I've had three children in school with IEP's at various points and for 1-3 years at a time. The two who struggled with social skills before entering school continued to struggle in school and mostly were loners among their classmates. One child with dyslexia made no meaningful progress, the other--at a different school--did make progress with really excellent classroom and resource teachers.

If, at this point, they are not offering significant support in terms of an IEP and maybe explicit teaching of social skills I doubt school in and of itself will make a significant difference to his progress.

There are a lot of experienced people on this board, maybe if you tell us a bit about what specifically you are seeing in working with him and what testing has been done, with what results, we can help you figure out ways to help him progress.

Edited February 4, 2020 by maize

[Terabith]

As someone who has homeschooled, sent kids with learning and social issues to public school, and taught in public schools, I want to tell you that the supports school would provide generally pale compared to supports you can offer at home.  Academically, kids almost always make far, far less progress at school than at home, with even a moderately educated or involved parent.  I think the cost/ benefits change around high school, when you're getting into specialist teachers in higher math, science, and foreign language.  But for elementary, academically school wins hands down.  

Socially, school can be an improvement, just in terms of frequency of access to peers.  This has both pluses and minuses.  They don't necessarily have a lot of time allotted for socialization; it's typically not guided, and in very few classrooms are social-emotional skills taught directly.  And kids can lose out by only having regular access to same aged peers in most schools and not to older or younger kids or adults or necessarily people who share interests.  

I think it makes a lot of sense to look for more social opportunities.  Homeschoolers who say that socialization is not an issue are somewhat naive.  Social skills are skills, and social needs are real needs.  There are times when it makes sense to send kids to school to better fulfill those social needs.  But, it doesn't sound like that's your situation.  I would continue to homeschool, work hard on closing the gap in terms of academic skills, work towards offering a wide range of social opportunities and actively teach any needed social skills, and allow him to develop at his own pace.  My ASD kid actually jumped from appearing young for her age/ grade to appearing mature for her age.  She was a late bloomer in terms of social skills, but at 14 she's doing really, really well, both academically and socially.  She's in public school, but I'm not sure she would have gotten where she is now without those years of homeschooling.  

[ElizabethB]

30 minutes ago, maize said:

 

There are a lot of experienced people on this board, maybe if you tell us a bit about what specifically you are seeing in working with him and what testing has been done, with what results, we can help you figure out ways to help him progress.

Great point!!

How is his reading? Have you given my quick screen reading grade level test and the MWIA 3?  They are linked at the end of my syllables page.  It is easier to make progress in all subjects when your reading is above grade level, it makes grade level work a breeze.  

http://www.thephonicspage.org/On Reading/syllablesspellsu.html

 

[kbutton]

1 hour ago, raindrops said:

 I’m kind of frustrated with his lack of cooperation and very young behaviors, but I don’t want him to completely fail and flounder in the public school....

Did the psychologist seem to think his maturity is to blame for lack of cooperation and young behavior? Were reasons for being a late bloomer (learning issues, language issues, sensory issues, ADHD, autism, etc.) ruled out? If so, then I would assume that his behavior would seem typical in a younger group of kids. Have you been able to observe if that's the case? Is he like this only with academics, or does he act young with peers in all settings? 

I think it's the rare kid that is a late bloomer alone and doesn't have at least some kind of learning, attention, or developmental issue. That said, our kids with those issues are late bloomers, but knowing why they are blooming late is part of figuring out what to do about it.

1 hour ago, maize said:

There are a lot of experienced people on this board, maybe if you tell us a bit about what specifically you are seeing in working with him and what testing has been done, with what results, we can help you figure out ways to help him progress.

I agree.

All that said, sometimes group stuff is helpful for herd effect--realizing that people function and behave differently in a group than as individuals, and at some point, getting on the same page has some social benefit. I don't think the group has to be school to teach that. I do think you have to match the kid to the experience carefully, whether it be baseball, swim lessons, scouts, or a church activity and to know what you want to get out of it (learning to monitor behavior while completing a task, learning to follow directions, etc.). 

[raindrops]

Thank you, everyone, who has responded thus far.

I really resonated with what Terabith said:  “I would continue to homeschool, work hard on closing the gap in terms of academic skills, ...social opportunities, social skills, and develop at own pace...” ...and that kids can make far less progress in school than at home even if...  

I was hoping the psychologist would address the underlying issues more...but seemed to gloss over them, saying he’s just a late bloomer.  I know he has some speech issues, sensory issues, attention, and, learning issues... but they don’t concern her.  I was hoping for more insight into these areas...  Should I get a second opinion?

 

[Susan in TX]

An "overall average" kid who is immature and struggling with academics is not going to get the support he needs in public school. If his problems were severe enough to qualify for special ed services then maybe (and that's a big maybe) the school would be able to do more for him than you could. 

My advice is to keep homeschooling him and work with him where he is. So instead of thinking he is 10 and in 3rd grade, he should be able to do XYZ accept that he is 10 but mentally/emotionally he is 8 and work with him at that level. And just because he is "behind" now doesn't mean he will remain "behind". The advantage of homeschooling is that we don't have to be tied down to grade levels. I have two children who were way below grade level when they were 10 but were working at or above grade level at age 14. 

Susan in TX

 

[kbutton]

11 minutes ago, raindrops said:

Thank you, everyone, who has responded thus far.

I really resonated with what Terabith said:  “I would continue to homeschool, work hard on closing the gap in terms of academic skills, ...social opportunities, social skills, and develop at own pace...” ...and that kids can make far less progress in school than at home even if...  

I was hoping the psychologist would address the underlying issues more...but seemed to gloss over them, saying he’s just a late bloomer.  I know he has some speech issues, sensory issues, attention, and, learning issues... but they don’t concern her.  I was hoping for more insight into these areas...  Should I get a second opinion?

So, the psych identified these things and then dismissed them, or you suspect them, or you've had other testing? 

I had one psych evaluation like that, and it was useless. I did get a second opinion. All my other evaluations were good. 

We might be able to spitball some things though if you have details about those areas. Some psychs really need to spend more time talking to parents that have found successful intervention (ours does--she loves it when we find something she's not heard of so she can have more resources to recommend) or networking with therapists in relevant fields.  

[Lecka]

My kids are in public school.  
 

My read on the comment “could benefit socially from school” is — saying something nice/positive if you do put him in public school.  There are no guarantees and you have ways to address social through homeschool.  
 

I think it’s very appropriate to say something nice wrt to public school as you might choose that, but I would not take it as “actual” “oh it would be really beneficial.”  
 

I think reasons for public school would be more like — you want to.  
 

There’s no reason to think someone else would do better because of their training, or that there would be some magical change.  
 

Reasons to do it would be more like — it appeals to you, you think he would like it and do well.

I also don’t think there’s too much reason to be overly fearful that he wouldn’t make it in public school.  He would probably be fine even if he is one of the less mature kids his age and/or does need extra help.  There are always some less-mature kids 😉

Edited February 5, 2020 by Lecka

[Terabith]

1 hour ago, raindrops said:

I was hoping the psychologist would address the underlying issues more...but seemed to gloss over them, saying he’s just a late bloomer.  I know he has some speech issues, sensory issues, attention, and, learning issues... but they don’t concern her.  I was hoping for more insight into these areas...  Should I get a second opinion?

 

What testing did he do and what kind of results did you get?  I would probably encourage you to get follow up testing from speech and occupational therapists about the speech and sensory issues.  IQ and achievement testing could give you important data about learning issues.  What did psychologist recommend about attention issues?  Those sound like significant issues that are more than just a late bloomer, and I would want to address all of them.  

[Lecka]

Also I think I share skepticism if the person you say is blowing off social concerns by saying “oh they would get better at school.”  Um no.  Just no.  He could go to school and have the same social concerns.  It doesn’t work that way.  
 

I don’t know if there are concerns or just — you are wondering.  
 

But that would not be a reason to change to public school, it would be a reason to look harder or look at more information, look at how he does in different environments, etc.  

Did you have observations from a group activity?  Are there concerns about how he does in group activities or with other adults?  It’s not a reason to think “oh the solution is public school” but it is worth wondering if the psych is blowing stuff like this off as “it would be fixed by school.”  

[Lecka]

Just ime — with kids I have known who have been in public school and then home school, or have been home schooled and then go to public school — they stay the same kids.  They don’t have some huge change.  
 

And there’s not some big difference between kids we see at activities whether they are home schooled or public schooled.

It’s just not a thing.

 

[raindrops]

Thank you, Susan in TX.  Your words were an encouragement to me.

About the speech, sensory, attention, and learning issues...  He had speech therapy as a preschooler, and continues to have hard-to-describe abnormalities in his speech expression.  I’ve observed sensory issues with him his whole life—with tags on clothing, textures of food making him gag, very sensitive to noise... tender hearted. The psych did talk about the attention issues she noticed..., and the test showed his working memory and processing speed as low which I think would directly imply a learning issue...  For the attention issue, she recommended he continue to have a lot of one on one (homeschooling) with prompts, and lots of breaks...which I do already. The psych is young, though...  There is an older, more mature, very articulate psych I spoke to on the phone a while back who offered to give a 2nd opinion for a much smaller fee if I need it...  I may do that.  

My son does okay in groups...though I can see him getting distracted or overwhelmed, and the academics going over his head completely.

 

I will ask about the speech and OT testing, too.  I don’t know why I didn’t think of that.

 

Thanks.  

Kristin

Edited February 5, 2020 by raindrops
Misspelling

[Lecka]

Was autism considered?  There are enough red flags to consider it and it seems to be glossed over for homeschoolers because they aren’t getting brought up by teachers or with teacher observations.

I am not saying I think this is the case, but it comes up and it’s going to be better to address it if it is an issue.  
 

How does he do playing with kids?  Or cooperating?  
 

Doing okay in a group if that means — he’s not getting in trouble, it’s not the same as actively doing well/participating.  Not getting in trouble is nice though 😉. But it’s not the same as actively taking part.

But you could also be around an advanced/mature group of kids by self-selection.  
 

If he was like — at school and alone at recess or often being bossed around or being seen to be bossy etc etc those are things that would be observed at school but can get glossed over.  

[kbutton]

I would definitely get a second opinion since you know there is an option to do that for a lower fee. 

I agree with Lecka that there are some red flags for autism. You might try to find out how comfortable the other psych is with diagnosing ASD. 

If you have the ability to get the language testing updated (if it's older), that might be a good idea--then share that with the psych; however, some psychs can do a bit of language testing. It really varies what people will do by what other specialties are doing. We had trouble getting a narrative language test anywhere, so our psych got one, and it was the smoking gun to pinpoint my son's issues. 

It might be a good idea to try to articulate what your son's speech issues are--you don't need technical language, but you could look up stuff on ASHA to see if anything rings a bell. Some things we've dealt with...my son who has apraxia slushes words together and speaks indistinctly. It's very fatiguing for him to speak correctly (he has a hypermobile jaw). My son with ASD has excellent articulation, but he used a lot of novel expressions when he was little (like "plug out" vs. "unplug"), he tended to stim a lot with noises, he sounded like a little professor sometimes, and he used a lot of rehearsed language or whole bits of memorized language, but at appropriate times. Some kids with autism have a different cadence to their speech or sound flat. I think prosody is the term for parts of that. Also, my son didn't really ask questions. He would list facts that would add up to us inferring that a problem existed. I mean, he would ask a few super basic questions, but not many. We didn't even realize how few. He'd just start a problem-solving type of discussion instead, lol! 

If you can get an OT evaluation, that also would be good. But whatever you get, share it with the psych because it all adds up. 

It sounds like you are doing a great job with him, but if you can get answers and support, I think you'll feel like this is less nebulous and that you have some solid goals. 

 

[raindrops]

Thanks, I’m looking into getting an OT and speech eval.  

The psych doesn’t think he has autism.  He’s scored high on social skills.  He’s engaged, empathetic, and loves being with and interacting with people.  He wants to do what they’re all doing, so he participates.

I had another conversation with the psychologist, and she really doesn’t think there are underlying diagnosis/ conditions. I may delete some of this later, in case she reads it... I had positive interactions with her, and felt she did a thorough job... and perhaps the part of her being young, etc. is not fair of me.  

[Storygirl]

23 hours ago, raindrops said:

I feel like I need some direction from a much older and wiser board member.  I don’t know what to do about my son.  I’m homeschooling him, and he’s “repeating” 3rd grade.  He presents as very young for a 10 year old, socially and emotionally.  He recently scored low on his math and writing, and his working memory and processing speed for a test from the school psychologist.  I just don’t know whether to keep trying to work with him at home or send him to school where he can potentially have more “supports”.   The psychologist says he’s “overall average”..., and may be able to get some instructional support... or maybe even go the CSE route if necessary—but she didn’t feel it was yet.  She thinks he’s a late bloomer, and will be a successful person at some point way down the road...  and kind of encouraged me to keep homeschooling while saying choosing to place him in school would help him grow socially as well...  I just don’t know what to do.  I’m kind of frustrated with his lack of cooperation and very young behaviors, but I don’t want him to completely fail and flounder in the public school....

 

12 minutes ago, raindrops said:

Thanks, I’m looking into getting an OT and speech eval.  

The psych doesn’t think he has autism.  He’s scored high on social skills.  He’s engaged, empathetic, and loves being with and interacting with people.  He wants to do what they’re all doing, so he participates.

I had another conversation with the psychologist, and she really doesn’t think there are underlying diagnosis/ conditions. I may delete some of this later, in case she reads it... I had positive interactions with her, and felt she did a thorough job... and perhaps the part of her being young, etc. is not fair of me.  

I find the comments that I bolded to be interesting. Was this a school psychologist who did all of this testing? If so, I think it is worth pursing private testing as well. Schools really are only looking for the things that need to be addressed in a classroom setting, so they can miss or under emphasize the importance of the root causes of things. Their job is not to identify the things that are causing any of the issues, so they don't diagnose. They will say whether the scores are low enough to qualify for the school's definitions of learning disabilities, so they would designate a student to have a disability in reading or math or writing, etc., if it affects their classroom work.

But there are so many things that can be at play that they don't test for or don't recognize, because that is not their job.

Did they run a pragmatic screening test to determine social? Because there are many things related to social that are beyond the positive things that you mentioned, including odd speech patterns and atypical communication. School psychs are not generally trained to evaluate autism, so I would also take that with a grain of salt. You can look up the criteria for autism and see for yourself if you think he fits. That can be helpful, although it can also be hard for parents to tell, which is why people have special training in that kind of diagnosis.

I do have a son who had some testing, and even though some of his scores were quite low, they were still in the "low average" range, which kept him from getting a diagnosis. You should know that low average scores can still affect how a student is able to function, even if they are not low enough to get a diagnosis. It can be helpful to look in more detail at each of the tests that the psych ran to see what the scores might implicate. Some people on the boards here have posted scores (without identifying info) to get input from others who have some knowledge or have BTDT, if you would be willing or interested in posting the actual numerical test results. Some people are comfortable with that, and some are not, but it can sometimes be helpful for your own enlightenment.

I have to run, but as for whether to put him in school or not -- I think there are pros and cons, and that a lot depends on whether you want to keep homeschooling and how well he does with working with you.

[kbutton]

1 hour ago, raindrops said:

Thanks, I’m looking into getting an OT and speech eval.  

The psych doesn’t think he has autism.  He’s scored high on social skills.  He’s engaged, empathetic, and loves being with and interacting with people.  He wants to do what they’re all doing, so he participates.

I had another conversation with the psychologist, and she really doesn’t think there are underlying diagnosis/ conditions. I may delete some of this later, in case she reads it... I had positive interactions with her, and felt she did a thorough job... and perhaps the part of her being young, etc. is not fair of me.  

So does my son with autism. 

Experience does make a difference.

[Lecka]

Well in the first post it says he is young socially and emotionally and the psych said school might might help him grow socially.  So this is some kind of social concern, you know?  That can be a lot of things but it’s something you might think about or watch and have more to talk about if you do have the 2nd opinion.  
 

 

[Storygirl]

The gaps in scores can be telling, but not all psychologists are adept at or feel that it's significant to take note of them. Since the WM and processing speed scores were low(er), but overall, the scores were average, it suggests to me that there may be a significant gap, where the verbal scores are much higher.

That profile, with high verbal scores but low nonverbal scores (working memory and processing speed are nonverbals), often results in students who have difficulties with writing, math, reading comprehension, and social skills. If the gap is significant enough, some psychologists will diagnose a disability called Nonverbal Learning Disorder, which you can google and read about, if that is the score spread that appears in the report.

Because NVLD crosses over into autism much of the time, some people say that NVLD really should be considered autism, and there is debate about this. I don't know your child's scores, and I'm not offering a diagnosis -- just something that you might want to look into, to ponder for yourself, since you would like to have more answers than the psych was able to give you.

[Storygirl]

A couple of other thoughts I wanted to throw out.

First, a low processing speed is often associated with difficulties in writing. There can be several kinds of writing trouble, and some kids have all of them, while others just have struggle with some.

The PS test is dependent upon good hand eye coordination; it is a symbol copying test. So pupils with poor fine motor skills or handwriting can score lower.

Or students can score lower because their thinking process is slower, even if their handwriting is fine. It's a timed test, so slowness will make the score lower.

You can google low or slow processing speed to see some of the academic difficulties that can be related, including problems with writing. Sometimes the poor motor control makes writing hard, even if the student has thoughts in his/her head. For other students, collecting their thoughts and putting them into words on paper is the bigger issue than handwriting. And some students have trouble with both.

It is appropriate to offer support for lower processing speed. Again, you can google to find out what kind of things that schools do to accommodate this, and you can duplicate those things at home. Some accommodations include allowing the student to type instead of handwrite their work; letting them give answers orally; scribing/writing for them as they dictate to you; and providing scaffolding for writing assignments by teaching simple outlining and using graphic organizers.

There are similar ways to accommodate for lower working memory, and you can google for that, as well.

I am saying to google, but you can also ask here on the LC board, if you would like interactive sharing by other parents. Or you can search back through the LC board posts from the past and read a lot about processing speed and writing. Or about WM.

Even though the psych told you that she didn't see evidence of a LD does not mean that your student does not need additional support. There are reasons and concerns that led you to seek the evaluation, and those things are REAL and can be addressed by you, even without a diagnosis.

I used to homeschool, and now my kids are in school, and two have IEPs, so I've been through the "should we keep homeschooling or enroll" dilemma. In our case, we ended up enrolling, but only because I was able to get the schools to evaluate and agree that IEPs were needed. In your case, if you see issues, but the school does not, I would be concerned about the child not getting needed support in the classroom. And that points more toward homeschooling being a good option, if you feel you are able to provide the support that he needs at home.

But also, school can be a good and valid option for some kids with learning issues. It depends upon the child, the family, and the specific school and what they have to offer.

[Storygirl]

Ugh. Just lost a long post.

In short, just because one person says they don't think it's autism does not mean it's not autism. Sensory and communication differences are part of the diagnostic criteria, which is why other responders suggested there are some red flags. And people do not have to meet ALL of the criteria in order to be diagnosable.

We had multiple people -- including doctor and counselors -- who offered their opinion that DS did not have autism. But without testing, it was only an opinion. And when we got the full ASD testing (not just the GARS screener, which some people run, but which is not great), DS was diagnosed with ASD after all.  When people are high functioning, ASD doesn't always look like what people expect.

You may not see concerns about autism at all, and that's fine!! I just don't want you to think that this one psych's opinion is the same as a thorough evaluation. I don't want you to feel pressure from me or anyone else, that you need to think that autism is an issue. But I do want you to know that it's okay to trust your mom gut, if it disagrees with something a psych says but can't back up with proof or data.

You are wondering partly if it would make sense to seek the second opinion, and, honestly, I think I would do it in your case. Not because you don't trust the psych that saw him. But because it can be possible for one psych to not see the whole picture or not test for all of the things. Some of these diagnoses are subjective, and it can be possible for someone else to see things differently or spot things that this person missed or run new tests that haven't been run yet, that can offer valuable information. And school psychs, as I mentioned before, look at things from the academic perspective, considering what help the school would need to offer, and may not be looking at the whole person.

I hope you are finding people's responses helpful. It can be really hard to navigate through these things, and I've found it really helpful to have people online to talk to, who have walked similar paths before.

Did they test for ADHD, by the way? The school can run a screener but would not diagnose. With attention as part of the problem, it's worth getting a full ADHD evaluation, if you have not yet done so.

 

[Paige]

School psychologists are not allowed to offer a diagnosis, so you may want to consider testing that will give you more concrete answers. Low processing can be ADHD too and that would also explain immaturity. Immaturity is a big flag for ADHD. 

IME, schools will not help average students unless it's a very high performing/stress school where statistically average kids are considered low performing. 

What does he want to do? I think academically, homeschooling is likely to be best because average kids can be lost in school. If he needs more social engagement and wants school, however, he may feel happier and more motivated. I have kids who are much more motivated in a school setting because they like to compete. It could also be negative socially, however, if he is ostracized for being immature. It really depends on him. 

Want to add- I have a DC who tested very "average" with low processing....but I knew something was wrong. DC does not have ADHD or autism or LDs...it is anxiety. Having that diagnosis has helped her to blossom into an above average student and now subjects that I was convinced she had a LD in have become her strongest because of medication, therapy, and a change in approach. 

 

Edited February 6, 2020 by Paige

[1shortmomto4]

Just a note about something I learned many, many years ago - kids who are immature for their age - socially and academically - can result from them not being diagnosed and remedied (for a lack of better words) and the brain slows or pauses in development to protect them.  Until the issues are uncovered, the child's maturity may continue to lag behind his peers no matter what social environments you place him in.  Since he is still struggling to properly form some sounds do be sure to have a full hearing screening done to rule that out (my standard response since I'm the parent to a hearing impaired child 😉 ).

[raindrops]

Thanks, you’ve all given me a lot to wade through and think about.  

[Pen]

Mixed option possibly? 

 

In 3rd grade my son had a public school IEP with concurrent homeschool and public school enrollment.  

He was at public school each morning (I went too), for writing reading, computer lab (computer time not official, but he got to use it in a gap time, which as our rural area didn’t have much access then was a big help), and at home from around 11am or so onward (too long ago to recall exact schedule).  

The IEP stated that Home learning would be best for most subjects.   He got some social time while at the school as well as some added work on certain subjects.  

He continued that part way through 4th, then returned to full time homeschooling. Then in 8th became a full time public schooler. 

 

[PeterPan]

You need private evals. Latw bloomer mess is crap. School doesn’t diagnose ASD educationally unless they HAVE to. They didn’t test enough to get the evidence either way. Hay clearly has more going on. You can homeschool him (unless you don’t want to or it’s not working) but you need better evals and complete actual answers. 

Oh and the ps passed my ds on the SLDT (pragmatics) and he’s now labeled ASD2. Not 1 but TWO. Get private evals. Ps evals are only about eligibility NOT the actual medical diagnosis.

[PeterPan]

On 2/4/2020 at 2:56 PM, raindrops said:

t.  I just don’t know whether to keep trying to work with him at home or send him to school where he can potentially have more “supports

What supports do you want him to have? Sure some kids do well in school and some fall through the cracks. You spend a year fighting the system and watching him fail but by the end they’ll have an IEP in place. They have to see it happening which is why it will take time.