AP versus online college course for homeschooler

[rads]

Hello, 

My daughter finished online high school program one year yearly but did not apply for colleges yet. She will have one year to take courses and I would like to know what are pro's and contra's of taking AP courses from PAHomeschoolers versus trying to get an online course from a reputable college. We would like to show prospective colleges that she can take college level classes and I was wondering if taking a college course would make better impression than AP course. She is a semifinalist at National Merit scholarship program and we will try to make it to the final. 

Edited September 2, 2019 by rads

[regentrude]

The advantage of a college course is that the grade is earned cumulatively over the course of the semester, whereas the AP exam score (and thus whether any college credit is earned at all) rests solely on the performance on a single exam date. 

The disadvantage of a "college course" is that not all colleges are created equal whereas AP is standardized, so the colleges she is applying to will know what they get. This can be mitigated by choosing a college that has a good reputation for requiring rigorous work - there are "college" courses out there that are just high school level with another label.

[Lucy the Valiant]

In some geographical areas and budgets (mine), cost is also a deciding factor. 

[rads]

4 minutes ago, Lucy the Valiant said:

In some geographical areas and budgets (mine), cost is also a deciding factor. 

As homeschoolers, we will have to pay full price for AP courses. PAH is approximately $700 or more per course, should be close to college prices and that made me think. Any suggestions on which reputable colleges allow to take only couple courses online? 

[catz]

I would look at your local community colleges first.  Does your state have any economical options for students to dual enroll?  My kid dual enrolled through one of ours for 2 years and did the majority of his classes online.   It was literally free going this path in our state.  

[TCB]

My dd found that she was awarded more credits for her AP tests than she earned for her dual credit classes. We self studied for one so that made it very affordable.

[rads]

It’s NY state, I’ll have to check re dual enrollment prices at community colleges

[Sebastian (a lady)]

Be aware that the time for AP exam registration has shifted to the fall.  You would want to be registering this week with a high school offering the exam, or be contacting College Board for assistance by Sept 4th.  

Because the timeline is new with a slightly new process, some high schools are declining to register homeschool students for the exams.

[Matryoshka]

You said she's completed the online high school program - is this a gap year, or are you graduating her after this coming year? I'm confused by the timeline, lol. Was this one of those complete programs that issues the transcript and diploma, or are you in charge of those?

I ask because taking any college classes during a gap year can mess up freshman status for scholarships. 

[rads]

49 minutes ago, Matryoshka said:

You said she's completed the online high school program - is this a gap year, or are you graduating her after this coming year? I'm confused by the timeline, lol. Was this one of those complete programs that issues the transcript and diploma, or are you in charge of those?

I ask because taking any college classes during a gap year can mess up freshman status for scholarships. 

She technically got a diploma from that program at the end of junior year, but the program is on the easier side and probably won’t impress colleges, so she is continuing to take classes this year as a senior, particularly advanced classes. How do we make sure that colleges will consider her a senior and not in her gap year this year?

[Matryoshka]

44 minutes ago, rads said:

She technically got a diploma from that program at the end of junior year, but the program is on the easier side and probably won’t impress colleges, so she is continuing to take classes this year as a senior, particularly advanced classes. How do we make sure that colleges will consider her a senior and not in her gap year this year?

That is a good question. Can one have a high school diploma awarded from one program and then get an additional diploma from a different high school (homeschool)?  If you didn't have to submit the other school's transcript, that would be one thing, but I'd think that if it is a full outside program the colleges would want their transcript?  Is there takesy-backsys on being graduated by an outside program?   I honestly have no idea what the definitive answer to these questions are... it sounds like a gray area...

If the colleges see that she's graduated from a high school program, I think it might be iffy to have her take college classes.  Especially if she's eligible for NMF scholarships, I think you want her to apply as a freshman, in which case taking AP exams (or taking CLEPs) would be a safer way to get some college credits early without jeopardizing that status.

Anyone more knowledgeable than me want to weigh in??

[RootAnn]

I think it depends on how they will do the application to college. Is mom going to put together a transcript that includes the outside program's classes (but doesn't send their transcript -- kind of like how some of us use online homeschooler classes but don't send copies of those transcripts if the program even issues them)? Is mom going to be the guidance counselor? I'm assuming yes, so I don't see an issue, but I guess it depends on the diploma-granting institution...

Making NMF isn't that tough if you fill out all the forms, make sure the NM Corporation gets your confirming SAT (or this year, ACT) score, get an outside evaluator (we used an online teacher) to do the endorsement, and don't have a bunch of bad grades.

The AP-vs-DE debate really depends on your situation (finances, opportunities in the area, cost, and what colleges you are looking at). We have had it several times on here. If you want to see lots of opinions & questions to ask yourself & consider, find the AP vs DE section of the High School Motherload #1 thread. You'll have to scroll down a bit, but there are 6-8 old threads.

Whatever you choose, I'd get going now because classes have started around here already...

Edited September 3, 2019 by RootAnn
Added link to Motherload thread

[daijobu]

I agree with RootAnn that the AP vs DE debate will forevermore remain undecided.  My student happened to prefer taking online AP classes because she liked rolling out of bed and studying in her pajamas without needing to attend a boring lecture.  She is also a good test taker and enjoyed the AP exams.  

For reputation, you might consider Hopkins CTY or Stanford Online High School.  Although now that I think about it, few SOHS classes are actual university level classes, and they are far more expensive, about $5000 for a single course and $13,000 for part time.  Also you will need to begin the application process soon for enrollment in 2020.   But they are quite tough and SOHS has a great reputation.  I don't have personal experience with Hopkins CTY.  

[rads]

Am I correct in understanding that DE courses would make her automatically a transfer student and that will jeopardize scholarships? 

[lmrich]

42 minutes ago, rads said:

Am I correct in understanding that DE courses would make her automatically a transfer student and that will jeopardize scholarships? 

No - not automatically. There is usually a magic number that qualifies one as a transfer student. Check with the universities your child has an interest in to see how many hours are needed to be a transfer student. 

[Matryoshka]

40 minutes ago, lmrich said:

No - not automatically. There is usually a magic number that qualifies one as a transfer student. Check with the universities your child has an interest in to see how many hours are needed to be a transfer student. 

Dual Enrollment is only a program available for current high school students.  If OP's dd has graduated, she'd have to enroll as a college student.  This is the gray area - it's unclear whether the OP can pretend she hasn't been awarded a high school diploma by an accredited high school.  I know students can be disqualified if they don't submit all college transcripts; not sure how it works for high school transcripts.  Is a degree-awarding, full high school program (even if online) considered an 'other schools attended' that she'd have to submit a transcript for?  And if they've officially graduated her on their paperwork, it could get sticky if she claims that she's still a high school student.  Any college work taken after graduating, as a college student, will disqualify you from freshman admission most places, and make you a transfer instead.

If the OP's dd hadn't completed the other program and been awarded a diploma, there would be no gray area and she could certainly just have her continue till whenever she wanted to.  It's their paperwork that would worry me...  Of course a homeschooler can take as many outside classes as they want and have the parent make the transcript, but those outside classes, however many they are, wouldn't grant graduation or diplomas, unless they're enrolled in the program, no?  Hypothetically, if someone enrolled in, say, Stanford Online HS or WHA full time (not just take classes as needed), then graduated from that school, could a homeschool parent then say they were still a high school student?  I think in those cases the schools would be the ones sending transcripts and certifying graduation (as this is often the whole reason people sign up for the full program)??  This is a question; I don't have a definitive answer, and I have no idea what program the OP's dd was in or how it works, but it does sound like they consider her as having graduated?  

If one is still in high school and dual enrolled, you can take lots and lots of credits, even get an Associate's, and not be disqualified as entering as a freshman.  Different schools do have different rules as to how many.  But there still can some stickiness about timing high school graduation and an AA - I know my friend whose dd did this had to be really careful and triple check the timing so it didn't accidentally turn her dd into a transfer.  (That isn't a problem if you're not also getting an AA pretty much simultaneous with high school graduation).

Edited September 4, 2019 by Matryoshka

[Mom0012]

My dd has taken both PAHS AP courses and CC DE classes. They have been completely different experiences, Most of the PAHS classes are good, but very involved and time consuming. Ridiculously so in some cases, IMO. Some of their courses are really great, but others seem to have massive amounts of extra work.  We audited one of the PAHS classes because of this. My dd has taken a few classes at the CC and it takes her about 2 hours a week to do the homework, even for upper level classes. And yet, she still masters the material. She didn’t wind up taking the AP Stats exam, but after completing the cc course, she took a practice exam and did well on it. If she had taken the PAHS AP class, it would have been 2 hours of work a day from what I’ve heard. 

So, I’d make a decision depending on the topic and the student’s level of interest, I think. If this is a class they’d enjoy completely delving into and they have the time to spend 2 hours a day for a full year, I’d go with PAHS. If it’s a class where they want to learn the material but want to to do it more efficiently, I’d go with the cc. At least, that has been our experience.

Another plus for the cc is that my dd enjoys being out and having live interaction with the teacher and other students. 

 

[Corraleno]

On 9/3/2019 at 7:53 AM, rads said:

She technically got a diploma from that program at the end of junior year, but the program is on the easier side and probably won’t impress colleges, so she is continuing to take classes this year as a senior, particularly advanced classes. How do we make sure that colleges will consider her a senior and not in her gap year this year?

If she was fully enrolled in, and graduated from, an accredited online school, then she is not a HS senior, she's a HS graduate. And if she was enrolled F/T in that school for all of HS, then she was not a homeschooler, she was a private (or public if it was a virtual PS) school student and should not be applying to colleges as a homeschooler. I would absolutely not lie to colleges and pretend she never attended the school — students have been expelled for that.

Your options at this point are to take college classes and apply as a transfer, or consider this a gap year and do AP or CLEP exams. Some colleges will not accept AP exams taken after HS graduation, so you will need to check with the colleges your daughter is interested in. There is also a lot of variation in which CLEPs different schools will accept, so if you do CLEPs, you'll want to choose the more widely accepted ones.

[daijobu]

14 hours ago, Matryoshka said:

classes, however many they are, wouldn't grant graduation or diplomas, unless they're enrolled in the program, no?  Hypothetically, if someone enrolled in, say, Stanford Online HS or WHA full time (not just take classes as needed), then graduated from that school, could a homeschool parent then say they were still a high school student?  I think in those cases the schools would be the ones sending transcripts and certifying graduation (as this is often the whole reason people sign up for the full program)??  This is a question; I don't have a definitive answer, and I have no idea what program the OP's dd was in or how it works, but it does sound like they consider her as having graduated?  

 

 

This is not a hypothetical question.  Many students enroll full time at Stanford OHS and graduate.  They are high school students who have graduated from high school.  There are a few "university level" classes offered, but they are not taking the same classes as actual Stanford undergraduates, although the syllabus may be the same or similar.  They are not receiving college credit from Stanford.  It's just more advanced coursework that one might typically see in college, but it's still a high school course.  Most Stanford OHS courses are not "university level" thought many are very challenging.   HTH.  

Edited September 4, 2019 by daijobu

[Matryoshka]

3 hours ago, daijobu said:

This is not a hypothetical question.  Many students enroll full time at Stanford OHS and graduate.  They are high school students who have graduated from high school.  There are a few "university level" classes offered, but they are not taking the same classes as actual Stanford undergraduates, although the syllabus may be the same or similar.  They are not receiving college credit from Stanford.  It's just more advanced coursework that one might typically see in college, but it's still a high school course.  Most Stanford OHS courses are not "university level" thought many are very challenging.   HTH.  

This is what I'm getting at... if this kid has been graduated from an outside program,  then she's graduated. It will have a graduation date on the transcript from the school, and I can't imagine that the colleges won't want to see that transcript. Making a second transcript with a later, second graduation date would I think raise all kinds of red flags.

And I'd thought I'd always heard no college classes after graduation but before matriculation at a university if you want to be considered as a freshman. It's not about credits,  but about when the classes were taken.  And DE would then also be off the table. Colleges are very picky about graduation dates - my dd did the opposite;  I had to make her graduation date a semester earlier than originally planned because to qualify for the state transfer program, she had to take her last 12 credits as a college student, *not* DE.

Hypothetically probably wasn't the right word, but I'm still a bit unclear on the exact nature of the online school OP's dd was at, and I was trying to draw a parallel to known online high school programs that issue diplomas. Just because a program is less challenging doesn't mean you get to tack on an extra year after graduation and still call it high school - then it's a gap year.

Edited September 4, 2019 by Matryoshka

[Corraleno]

@rads What school did your DD graduate from? You had a thread on the high school board in 2017/2018 asking about the best approach to HS for a student who was interested in premed. In that thread you mentioned that you were familiar with homeschooling because your DD did 6 months of 9th grade with K12, but it wasn't clear if you meant that she did 6 months of K12 and then switched to homeschooling, or if you considered K12 to be "homeschooling." If she continued with K12, was fully enrolled, and graduated from there, she was a public school student, not a homeschooler, and is now a high school graduate.

And if she is still interested in premed, she may be better off doing something useful and interesting (and preferably related to medicine) during her gap year rather than taking classes or doing exams, because med schools are not generally going to be impressed with CC classes or CLEP tests.

[Matryoshka]

1 minute ago, HeighHo said:

An academic year after high school graduation and before college is not new; its a prep school year. 

Yes, those have been around forever.  But they are not themselves colleges (even if they offer college level classes).

It's taking actual college classes run by an actual college after graduating that gets you in the sticky place. One could try to argue to admissions that taking a few college classes is equivalent to going to a post-hs prep school, but I kinda doubt they'd buy it... 

Probably the best thing is for OP to have a talk with a specific colleges her DD is interested in. Be honest that she's graduated from another program, that she's taking a gap year, and what kinds of things would they like to see her doing to be a competitive applicant to that school while not jeopardizing her freshman application status. Different schools have such different rules, it's worth getting into specifics.

[RootAnn]

I'm curious as to how all this works with National Merit. The process is slightly different for high school seniors vs those who have skipped senior year (Which is kind of what the OP has said). Who is filling out the NM paperwork? Who is receiving notification of NMSF status?

[rads]

36 minutes ago, RootAnn said:

I'm curious as to how all this works with National Merit. The process is slightly different for high school seniors vs those who have skipped senior year (Which is kind of what the OP has said). Who is filling out the NM paperwork? Who is receiving notification of NMSF status?

My daughter was in online public high school for a year but we moved to NY where it is not offered. So we did PennFoster which is online AdvancedEd accredited private school. According to NMC website online school students are treated as homeschoolers.  We received her National Merit paperwork and will be filling it out.

We decided that medicine may not be best for her personality and currently considering engineering, she is gifted in math and engineering will fit her better. As for an engineering degree, her SAT scores are very competitive and we would like to get a full scholarship which was already alluded to by 2 colleges. We called Baylor in Waco TX  that she liked and they said gap year is not a problem but that college doesn't necessarily award scholarships based on NMSC.

Now another question, if she should be in a rigorous program so she can demonstrate ability by getting good grades, and wants the opportunity to get recent quality teacher references, would AP courses or college courses serve her better in this way?

[chiguirre]

Since you're interested in Baylor, I'd suggest contacting Texas A&M. They do give full tuition scholarships to NMFs so you only pay for room and board. They also accept a LOT of CLEP credits which your dd could self study for. If you live in TX, they offer freshman year programs at some CCs. Blinn is their local school and students can live in their dorms but they have a program at HCC in Katy that I read about. It's too late to start this semester, but perhaps it would work for spring.

[rads]

16 minutes ago, chiguirre said:

Since you're interested in Baylor, I'd suggest contacting Texas A&M. They do give full tuition scholarships to NMFs so you only pay for room and board. They also accept a LOT of CLEP credits which your dd could self study for. If you live in TX, they offer freshman year programs at some CCs. Blinn is their local school and students can live in their dorms but they have a program at HCC in Katy that I read about. It's too late to start this semester, but perhaps it would work for spring.

We lived in Texas for many years and plan to go back there, therefore looking for a college there and already audited Baylor. Her SAT score is 99.5% but we are worried that her last year will look weak and thinking about taking online college level course in calculus or something like that. Would it be better idea to take it at a college affiliated with A&M or Baylor or maybe a top national university? She told local CC college that she has high school diploma so we will have to pay full price anyways.

Edited September 5, 2019 by rads

[chiguirre]

I don't think she should do any college classes until you decide if you want her to be a transfer student or apply as a freshman. She could do some MOOCs at EdX or Coursera and take CLEPs for credit without affecting her freshman status.

[Corraleno]

If you are looking for large scholarships, she should not take college classes, as that will jeopardize freshman scholarships at the majority of colleges. My son did a gap year and the colleges we talked to said he could not take any college classes after graduation or he would be considered a transfer. His first choice school, which he currently attends on a 4-yr full tuition scholarship, said he could not even audit a single class, without credit, or he would lose eligibility for freshman scholarships. 

Does Baylor know she already graduated from Penn Foster? Have you asked them what they would ideally like to see for a gap year? 

[Corraleno]

@rads You should double-check with the National Merit folks regarding your DD's eligibility for NMF status, because one of the requirements for NMF status is the student "must be enrolled in the last year of high school and be planning to enroll full time in college the following fall, or be enrolled in the first year of college if you completed grades 9 through 12 in three years or less."

According to that, her options may be to either (1) enroll F/T in CC to maintain NMF eligibility but lose her eligibility for freshman scholarships, or (2) do AP classes and exams (or CLEP) in order to maintain freshman eligibility but give up NMF status.

From your posts it sounds like you may not have fully understood the impact of your DD graduating from Penn Foster. National Merit will see that she has graduated when they get the transcript, as will colleges, so they will know this is a gap year and not "12th grade."  Is there any way that you can persuade Penn Foster to "ungraduate" her? Because the fact that she already graduated significantly limits her options. ☹️

Edited September 6, 2019 by Corraleno

[Bristayl]

21 hours ago, Corraleno said:

 (1) enroll F/T in CC to maintain NMF eligibility but lose her eligibility for freshman scholarships,  or (2) do AP classes and exams (or CLEP) in order to maintain freshman eligibility but give up NMF status.

 

Corraleno is right, and unfortunately strategy #1 would only maintain eligibility for the smaller scholarships that the National Merit Corporation itself gives out. Most, if not all of the large scholarships given by certain colleges to National Merit Finalists are limited to entering freshmen only.  Strategy #2 would eliminate both types of National Merit Scholarships, but would keep options open for other freshman scholarships as long as they don't require a student to begin college the fall after graduation (and I have seen a few that do require this).

• "Students who plan to leave high school a year (or more) early to enroll in college full time usually can participate in the National Merit Scholarship Program if they take the PSAT/NMSQT before they enroll in college. Such students must take the PSAT/NMSQT in either the next-to-last year or the last year they are enrolled in high school.
  • Those who take the PSAT/NMSQT in the next-to-last year of high school will be entering the competition for awards to be offered as they are finishing their final high school year.
  • Those who take the PSAT/NMSQT in their last year of high school will be entering the competition for awards to be offered as they are completing their first year of college."

 

Edited to add: It occurred to me that the student would need to be enrolled in college this fall, i.e. right now, in order to maintain National Merit eligibility with strategy #1. So it may be too late for that--it doesn't sound like enrolling in college in the spring semester would count for NM eligibility.

 

Edited September 7, 2019 by Bristayl

[JumpedIntoTheDeepEndFirst]

If you take the college course route be sure that they are taking courses that will actually transfer to the future school of choice. Aside from a few community college/state university agreements around the country, there is no guarantee that the gaining school will accept the credits. Even in the case of those agreements, the transferability only applies to some courses not all courses offered.