What I feed my dog, as an example. But, what to feed my cat?

[Familia]

This is a 'JAWE' post...

Just agree with everyone!  Meaning, I would like to see what other concerned dog/cat lovers have decided to feed their pets after their did their research, wracked their brains, and searched their pocketbooks.  No bashing of anyone else's decision!

It can be so stressful knowing what to fed our pets.  In case it is of any help to anyone, this is what we have settled upon for our 75# dog.  We desired to use kibble.  We were influenced by these board discussions to rotate between brands a little and use kibbles of at least 30% protein.  I was relieved to not see our brands on the DCM list on the other thread, so I do not have to go through the decision process again.  After making charts to compare protein/costs/stores, this is what is best for us:

Rotate every  two bags:

• Victor Hi-Pro Plus (cheapest at Rural King 40#)
• Purina One SmartBlend True Instinct Turkey & Venison (Rural King or Chewy same price for 27.5#)

Each serving gets topped with a dollop of

• Solid Gold Green Cow Tripe or Solid Gold Sun Dancer (cheapest at Chewy, but they kept sending dented cans.  I do not do dented cans, so I pick the cans myself at Petsmart)

 

Please post your pet food picking process and the resulting choice.  Because, maybe what you have decided for your dog or cat can help someone else choose their brand so they can move on with life.  I, for one, need help finding a higher protein cat food, and I would rather learn from your experience then do the research myself LOL

Edited August 7, 2019 by Familia
tweaking

[kokotg]

Following. Just finally got around to switching the dogs away from Taste of the Wild because of the now not very recent issues with it....I also went with Victor Hi-Pro Plus for now--which is way cheaper than the Taste of the Wild and has almost as much protein (and more fat, I think). Now I'm turning to cat food. We switched the cats from dry food awhile back because my male cat was getting bad UTIs, but he's gone 2 years without a UTI now,  and I'd really like to stop spending a fortune doing nothing but wet food. I just looked at Taste of the Wild dry food for cats (apparently I miss buying TOTW?) and the protein content is almost identical to the wet food we feed them (Abound grain free, from Kroger)....so I'm thinking of starting to do one meal a day of each for them. 

[Pawz4me]

There are a few theories about rotating --

That by doing so you avoid over/under supplementation of anything critical.

That if there's a supply issue you won't have a problem, because your pet is used to eating more than one food.

That choosing kibbles with different protein/carb sources and rotating between them so that the dog isn't constantly exposed to the same ingredients reduces the likelihood of developing food allergies (which generally occur after long term exposure to an ingredient).

There are probably more reasons that I'm forgetting in my hurry to start dinner. But those are some of the main ones.

[Familia]

35 minutes ago, CuriousMomof3 said:

I am curious about this idea of rotating kibble.  ...

Thanks for asking.  What @Pawz4me said!  She was who tipped me over the edge into rotating=)

And, we rotate every two bags just because.  One of those arbitrary decisive decisions🤣

Edited August 7, 2019 by Familia

[AK_Mom4]

Our two 65 pound dogs get: one cup of kibble (Kirkland salmon something) in the morning and 10.5 ounces of raw pork at night.  We have been feeding Half-Raw for the last few years as it makes a huge difference for keeping them from being itchy all the time.  We buy the pork in bulk at Costco and chop it for them.  

Our cat (when he was alive) got all the dry cat food he cared to eat (he liked Purina grain free).  However as he got older, his teeth were not good, so he mostly ate raw salmon, raw chicken and raw pork all cut into little pieces for him.  Chicken and salmon we left the skin on for him.  Cat was about 6 pounds at his heaviest, and did very well right up to the end.

[MEmama]

Kitty gets wet food morning and evening, plus little bits of dry during the day. We rotate brands and flavors for her for both wet and dry; she’s not picky at all. The only thing she doesn’t love is turkey.

We make sure she gets mostly poultry but mix plenty of various fish in too because she loves it. We focus on foods in gravy especially when it’s very hot to make sure she gets enough liquid. I’ve been known to make her homemade chicken broth to supplement as well (I freeze it in ice cube trays and will give her a thawed cube as an afternoon snack).

DH is super picky about brands (that don’t use certain types of or too many fillers) although we’ve recently discovered she’s crazy about Friskys treats. 😀 

Brands of wet food currently in my pantry: Tiny Tiger chicken recipe, Max Cat Chicken and Liver, Dave’s Tuna and Shrimp in Gravy and Tuna and Chicken in Gravy (new to us), Nulo Salmon and Mackerel, Authority Chicken entree in Gravy, Nulo Duck and Tuna, and Max Cat Savory Duck in Sauce.

Dry foods: Merrick Chicken and Sweet Potato, Wild Frontier White Fish, and Nutro Chicken and Potato.

[regentrude]

My indoor/outdoor cat is 21 years old, very healthy, and likes the cheapest dry food. No rotation. She refuses any wet food (not sure if that's because we once used it to hide medication) 

Every time her blood had been tested (to determine whether she can receive medication after injury), it has been found to have outstanding values. So we're giving her what she likes and seems to thrive on. Years ago she was hunting and supplementing her diet with fresh mice and rabbits, but hasn't been doing that in a long time.

Edited August 7, 2019 by regentrude

[AmandaVT]

Our kitty gets Hills Science Diet dry food and Applaws wet (chicken). The dry was what the vet recommended and what she was used to from the shelter. And the wet is the only wet food that doesn't totally gross me out. It looks like something we could have for dinner.

[Familia]

15 hours ago, AK_Mom4 said:

 We buy the pork in bulk at Costco and chop it...

Do you buy a large picnic butt or something?  Just refrigerate & give a little all week?  The nutritionist in me wants to know if the same food safety rules apply in this case. I mean, you couldn’t feed raw in the first place to humans, so do you have to go by the “use raw meat within three days” rule?  That’s what I try to follow for people. 

Maybe I could do this once a day, too. 

Edited August 8, 2019 by Familia

[ktgrok]

16 hours ago, AK_Mom4 said:

Our two 65 pound dogs get: one cup of kibble (Kirkland salmon something) in the morning and 10.5 ounces of raw pork at night.  

Just FYI, over time that is going to be low in calcium, since you are not using bone. You can get calcium powder pretty easily online from Amazon and just add I think it is a tsp per pound of meat..would have to look it up to be sure. 

15 hours ago, MEmama said:

We focus on foods in gravy especially when it’s very hot to make sure she gets enough liquid.

I'm pretty sure the gravy ones don't have more moisture than the pate style it's just differently distributed. So more solid chunks in liquid instead of all mushy. Might want to check. The Pate styles are almost all meat protein, vs the chunks in gravy style that has a lot of wheat gluten to help create the chunky texture. 

15 hours ago, regentrude said:

My indoor/outdoor cat is 21 years old, very healthy, and likes the cheapest dry food. No rotation. She refuses any wet food (not sure if that's because we once used it to hide medication) 

Every time her blood had been tested (to determine whether she can receive medication after injury), it has been found to have outstanding values. So we're giving her what she likes and seems to thrive on. Years ago she was hunting and supplementing her diet with fresh mice and rabbits, but hasn't been doing that in a long time.

Cheap as in Purina Cat Chow, Friskies (made by Purina), etc are safe and fine. That said, I will caution that after 20 years in veterinary medicine I am positive Deli Cat (also made by purina) is the devil. A HUGE portion of the cats with urinary issues at Deli Cat. Maybe they changed it in the last decade since I've really worked full time, but if not, that stuff was a menace. 

Edited August 8, 2019 by Ktgrok

[sweet2ndchance]

We give our dogs Victor as well because it is the cheapest option that doesnt include corn. One of our dogs will scratch her back on the ground until it is raw when she has food with corn as an ingredient. We share a 40 pound bag with dh's grandma who lives next door. We have a catahoula/pitt bull mix (the one with corn issues) and a bassett hound. Grandma has a chihuahua. One bag lasts a little over a month usually. On the odd occaision that we have to buy another brand, we get whatever grain free we can find with no corn. None of the dogs are picky and will eat whatever we give them and ask for more lol. We live out in the country so our two dog, who are allowed the run of our 7 acre property, often catch their own snacks lol. They also get raw meat when I'm cutting up large cuts of meat to freeze. And of course they are always willing to clean up after their 6yo boy, whether it be food he dropped or licking it off his face. Lol

Ive been looking into cat food. Ds wants a house cat. Sigh. Im pretty well set on a grain free kibble if we get a cat. And maybe occaisional wet food also grain free. Minus the grain free part thats how we fed the cats we had when I was a kid and they both lived very long happy lives.

[Jean in Newcastle]

Our dog gets Nutrisource Adult (but not the grain-free kind).  Our decision was based on the fact that that is what our Humane Society feeds their animals and our puppy was used to it and seems to do well on it.  Plus research shows it to be a fairly good food.  I did look into raw feeding etc. but for various reasons decided that it was not the best choice for our family. 

Our cat gets Kasiks canned chicken.  Wet food because he has had urinary crystals in the past and the wet food seems to help with that.  He also gets a UTI supplement once a week.  The brand cat food is because the last time he got crystals (over two years ago) he refused all food and this food is the only one that he would eat.  Then he started to refuse to eat the Kasiks and the vet told me that he was underweight and needed more calories - so I mix some freeze-dried chicken (Life Essentials) into the canned food and he will eat it. 

[Spy Car]

4 hours ago, Familia said:

Do you buy a large picnic butt or something?  Just refrigerate & give a little all week?  The nutritionist in me wants to know if the same food safety rules apply in this case. I mean, you couldn’t feed raw in the first place to humans, so do you have to go by the “use raw meat within three days” rule?  That’s what I try to follow for people. 

Maybe I could do this once a day, too. 

I feed a fair amount of pork to my dog. I cut it up and pack it into individual size (snack sized) ziplocks bags. My dog has no issue devouring meat straight from the freezer.

My understanding (no expert on cats) is that their food can not be served frozen. 

At some amount of regular supplementation it is wise to compensate with calcium to balance the phosphorus rich meat. This can be as simple as using ground eggshell. Google the formula for pound of meat. It is important to maintain the balance of these mineral ratios and it isn't difficult. I balance with bone-in chicken, but whichever way works.

BTW, cheap fatty cuts are best for this use. When starting I would advise trimming a considerable amount of fat (save it for use later) and then working up the full amount of amount of fat. Fat is the natural fuel for dogs, but when fed a significant amount of carbohydrates there are shifts that need to take place from digestive enzymes released by the pancreas to inter-cellular changes in the mitochondria. So best to transition to full fat.

Best,

Bill   

[ktgrok]

3 hours ago, sweet2ndchance said:

 

Ive been looking into cat food. Ds wants a house cat. Sigh. Im pretty well set on a grain free kibble if we get a cat. And maybe occaisional wet food also grain free. Minus the grain free part thats how we fed the cats we had when I was a kid and they both lived very long happy lives.

All kibble has some kind of carbohydrate, it's needed to make it into kibble.Grain free kibbles just substitute potatoes or legumes for the grains. Is there a reason you think potatoes or legumes are preferable for a cat, compared to grains?

If you just want lower carbohydrate in general, some formulas are higher than others, but pate style canned is generally the food with the least plant products. 

[Spy Car]

1 minute ago, Ktgrok said:

All kibble has some kind of carbohydrate, it's needed to make it into kibble.Grain free kibbles just substitute potatoes or legumes for the grains. Is there a reason you think potatoes or legumes are preferable for a cat, compared to grains?

If you just want lower carbohydrate in general, some formulas are higher than others, but pate style canned is generally the food with the least plant products. 

Aren't cats obligate carnivores?

Bill

[ktgrok]

22 minutes ago, Spy Car said:

Aren't cats obligate carnivores?

Bill

rhe·tor·i·cal ques·tion

noun

 

1. a question asked in order to create a dramatic effect or to make a point rather than to get an answer.

   "the presentation was characterized by impossibly long sentences and a succession of rhetorical questions"

[Spy Car]

11 minutes ago, Ktgrok said:

rhe·tor·i·cal ques·tion

noun

 

1. a question asked in order to create a dramatic effect or to make a point rather than to get an answer.

   "the presentation was characterized by impossibly long sentences and a succession of rhetorical questions"

You bet!

Bill

[ktgrok]

Fancy Feast Pate are also low in carbohydrates and high in meat content. Generally, but not always, even the cheap grocery store canned pate foods have little to know plant matter, just enough starch to hold the food together for easier serving. 

Canned is also better because cats are not good at drinking water. They evolved in a dry, almost desert environment and are designed to get most of their hydration from their prey. Which is why cats have so many bladder issues - they don't drink enough to flush out the bladder. Canned food helps a lot. 

[sweet2ndchance]

57 minutes ago, Ktgrok said:

All kibble has some kind of carbohydrate, it's needed to make it into kibble.Grain free kibbles just substitute potatoes or legumes for the grains. Is there a reason you think potatoes or legumes are preferable for a cat, compared to grains?

If you just want lower carbohydrate in general, some formulas are higher than others, but pate style canned is generally the food with the least plant products. 

Yup, I know kibble needs a binder to hold it together. And I also know that cats are obligate carnivores lol. We've just noticed such a positive change in all our dogs, not just the one with sensitivity issues when we got away from food with corn in the ingredients. Do I think potatoes, legumes or grains are preferable to corn? No, but I can't afford to feed all our animals an all raw diet and since, if we do get a cat, it will likely be a house cat as a pet for animal loving ds, not a barn cat so hoping it gets its fill to eat from the abundant wildlife on our property isn't really something I think we can count on with a pet rather than a feral barn cat.

If money were no object, I would feed all wet food with as little binders and extra ingredients as possible and raw food and let them hunt for snacks like the dogs do. Since money is a concern (and a big part of the reason we haven't obliged ds's request yet), I would rather keep corn out of any animal's diet who wouldn't purposely forage for corn in the wild. Grain free kibble, regardless of the animal it is intended for, seems to be the best way to guarantee a good chance that there is no corn used as a filler/binder.

Edited August 8, 2019 by sweet2ndchance

[ktgrok]

Also, I have no idea if Spy Car, who admittedly is not an expert on cats, is trying to say you should feed a raw diet to your cat, but if so, please use a recipe formulated by a veterinary nutritionist. Cats are very sensitive to taurine deficiencies, and not all meat products have the proper amount of taurine. Generally it should be supplemented to be sure, and possible some other supplements as well, particularly since cats are very particular and WILL starve themselves to death rather than eat something they don't want to eat. So if they pick out certain bits and leave the organ meat, etc they can get very sick, go blind, die, etc. Because cat nutrition is so specific, it is often a matter of working around what they will eat, not what you think they should eat. 

And because they are so sensitive to deficiencies and so likely to eat one thing rather than a rotation, I would stick with brands that are "tried and true" and formulated by nutrition experts, not a start up company's idea of "this sounds like something good for cats to eat" off the internet. 

[ktgrok]

7 minutes ago, sweet2ndchance said:

Yup, I know kibble needs a binder to hold it together. And I also know that cats are obligate carnivores lol. We've just noticed such a positive change in all our dogs, not just the one with sensitivity issues when we got away from food with corn in the ingredients. Do I think potatoes, legumes or grains are preferable to corn? No, but I can't afford to feed all our animals an all raw diet and since, if we do get a cat, it will likely be a house cat as a pet for animal loving ds, not a barn cat so hoping it gets its fill to eat from the abundant wildlife on our property isn't really something I think we can count on with a pet rather than a feral barn cat.

If money were no object, I would feed all wet food with as little binders and extra ingredients as possible and raw food and let them hunt for snacks like the dogs do. Since money is a concern (and a big part of the reason we haven't obliged ds's request yet), I would rather keep corn out of any animal's diet who wouldn't purposely forage for corn in the wild. Grain free kibble, regardless of the animal it is intended for, seems to be the best way to guarantee a good chance that there is no corn used as a filler/binder.

I'm now intrigued, lol. Not trying to be annoying, truly curious, as to why corn in particular, and not wheat or whatever? Corn actually has a better amino acid profile, if properly processed first, than a lot of other plant sources from what I remember. And is probably something more natural for a cat to get into on occasion than say, a sweet potato or a garbanzo bean. Or is it the GMO aspect? I could see corn in particular being the one you are avoiding if that was the concern. I also think back in the day the foods with a lot of corn were also the ones that had the least amount of fatty acids, so dogs tended to be itchier on them. Now I think that's less a correlation. 

Also, in case you haven't browsed in a while, a lot of foods now state corn/wheat/ free, even the non grain free ones. I know only because when looking for gluten free  but not grain free food (due to a kid with celiac who gets licked by the dog a lot) I kept eagerly clicking on the ones that stated that, only to find they contained barley. Which of course does have gluten, but yeah, lots of corn free ones I came across. 

Edited August 8, 2019 by Ktgrok

[Spy Car]

8 minutes ago, Ktgrok said:

Also, I have no idea if Spy Car, who admittedly is not an expert on cats, is trying to say you should feed a raw diet to your cat, but if so, please use a recipe formulated by a veterinary nutritionist. Cats are very sensitive to taurine deficiencies, and not all meat products have the proper amount of taurine. Generally it should be supplemented to be sure, and possible some other supplements as well, particularly since cats are very particular and WILL starve themselves to death rather than eat something they don't want to eat. So if they pick out certain bits and leave the organ meat, etc they can get very sick, go blind, die, etc. Because cat nutrition is so specific, it is often a matter of working around what they will eat, not what you think they should eat. 

And because they are so sensitive to deficiencies and so likely to eat one thing rather than a rotation, I would stick with brands that are "tried and true" and formulated by nutrition experts, not a start up company's idea of "this sounds like something good for cats to eat" off the internet. 

It is true that Taurine is an essential nutrient for cats, so they need it from a dietary source. Beef heart and many organs are loaded with Taurine. Or one can trust the pet food companies who make food containing carbohydrates for obligate carnivores to use Chinese sourced synthetic Taurine power to fill this nutritional need.

Otherwise, cats get the same 80/10/10 ("meat"/bone/organ) formula that PMR dogs get.

For point of information the Purina canned Fancy Feast contains wheat gluten, soy flour, soy protein concentrate, and artificial flavors.

While the 4% "carbohydrate" portion (if accurate) seems small at first glance that number is deceptive due to this being "wet" percentages, not dry ones. In other words that are as many carbs as a percentage as there is fat.

Not to mention the highly problematic "meat by-products" (which is whole nutter discussion, based on what the vague sourcing allows under the law).

Bill

[Tanaqui]

Isn't corn short on lysine if it isn't treated first? Low lysine = eventual pellagra.

[sweet2ndchance]

When our mutt was rubbing herself raw from itchiness, the vet suggested we try to avoid corn in her food to see if it helped. It not only cured her itchiness but since we weren't going to buy special food for her and regular food for the other dog, we noticed both of them had less stomach upset symptoms (less stinky dog farts, less "OMG what the heck did you eat?" dog piles around the property, I can't remember the last time one of them barfed in the house, less bloat when they are done eating their food). Our vet recommends avoiding corn for most pets who would not purposely go look for corn specifically in the wild. Our pet rats that we used to have LOVED corn but if we didn't limit it they would make themselves sick on it. It was like candy to them and they would have foraged for corn if they lived in the wild. Many small animal foods mixes have a large amount of corn in them because it is cheap, keeps cost down and most small animals love it but it's not the best ingredient for them.

It's not a decision we made lightly, we would spend a lot less on dog food if we bought them Alpo or Purina or some other brand that we don't have to buy at the feed store (since that is the only place that sells Victor around here) but a balance between cost and quality of life for the dogs and those of us who have to clean up their messes and what our vet recommends, going corn free makes sense for us. It's not based on ideals or elitism or anything like that, it is just what in practice has worked best for us and our various animals we've had over the years. I would never dream of telling someone else how to feed their animals unless they specifically asked for suggestions. It's just what works for us.

Edited August 8, 2019 by sweet2ndchance
fixing grammar and word omissions

[AK_Mom4]

Re: feeding pork for dogs

yes we buy the butt at Costco - they have a couple different ones and we buy cheap. We cut it out up and weigh it, then ziplock bag each serving.  It goes into the freezer, then about 3 days before we need it, we pop it in the fridge to thaw. 

We don’t worry about calcium or vitamin supplements because they are getting 1 meal a day of a decent kibble. 

When they were on all-kibble they scratched constantly. It could have been allergies (per the vet) or it could have been not enough fat. Feeding Half-Raw works well

[Familia]

57 minutes ago, kand said:

Exactly. Our cat who has had urinary issues has only had them when she has had dry food. Such a high percentage of cats end up with kidney and bladder problems as they get older, so once the one had some trouble, we stopped having any dry food even available in the house, to reduce the temptation to feed it when we run out of wet rather than running to the store (which was how we used to use the dry).

Yes, the urinary problems (and diabetes) have plagued cats I have owned in the past.  I am thinking of feeding our two young cats (one a barn cat who supplements with mice, birds, and shrews) better before they have problems.

52 minutes ago, Ktgrok said:

  And because they are so sensitive to deficiencies and so likely to eat one thing rather than a rotation, I would stick with brands that are "tried and true" and formulated by nutrition experts...

Thank you!  I am a “people-nutrition-expert”, and I am definitely a skeptic when it comes to anecdotal nutritional advice=).  Although I did say, upthread, that I would rather learn here than do the research...haha, I just mean that I am skeptical of the nutrition advice being factual, but I am open to making my decision based on other’s personal experience.

34 minutes ago, Spy Car said:

Not to mention the highly problematic "meat by-products" (which is whole nutter discussion, based on what the vague sourcing allows under the law)....

My intent with this post is to hear what people have decided to feed their dogs/cats after discernment - discernment that I take in good faith to have been satisfactory to them.  Although that discernment process may have involved ‘negative thinking’ (meaning ‘what to avoid’), let us leave each individual with food for thought, to explore on their own what is good or bad for their situation.

Please, give your personal feeding choices, reasoning once (if you care to share), ask your questions if clarification is needed, and move on.

Edited August 8, 2019 by Familia

[Roadrunner]

I feed my puppy Costco kibble mixed with some sort of cooked meat (usually chicken or beef). He won’t eat kibble alone.

[ktgrok]

52 minutes ago, Spy Car said:

It is true that Taurine is an essential nutrient for cats, so they need it from a dietary source. Beef heart and many organs are loaded with Taurine. Or one can trust the pet food companies who make food containing carbohydrates for obligate carnivores to use Chinese sourced synthetic Taurine power to fill this nutritional need.

Otherwise, cats get the same 80/10/10 ("meat"/bone/organ) formula that PMR dogs get.

For point of information the Purina canned Fancy Feast contains wheat gluten, soy flour, soy protein concentrate, and artificial flavors.

While the 4% "carbohydrate" portion (if accurate) seems small at first glance that number is deceptive due to this being "wet" percentages, not dry ones. In other words that are as many carbs as a percentage as there is fat.

Not to mention the highly problematic "meat by-products" (which is whole nutter discussion, based on what the vague sourcing allows under the law).

Bill

Bill, i VERY clearly stated the pate formulations. What you are saying is untrue. The pate formulations do not have wheat, soy, etc. Here is a link to the pate chicken flavor (first one I grabbed) and you can clearly see the ingredients are meat based. https://www.fancyfeast.com/gourmet-cat-food/wet-cat-food/timeless-favorites/classic-pate/chicken-feast

As for byproducts, those organs you tout as 10 percent of PMR are byproducts. There is actually a clear definition for byproducts in the pet food industry. They are a good source of nutrition. Not to mention, people have been feeding byproducts to animals a long time. It's that or bury or burn them. 

And yes, in the other thread I specified it was on an 'as fed" basis, because the high water content is involved. Dry matter basis is different. But friskies pate still has a small amount of rice as the last ingredient by weight, below all the meat ingredients (other than vitamins, etc). 

Not to mention as I stated as well, cats are notorious for not eating what they don't want to, so it is hard to get them to eat exactly 80/10/10 (ahtough I've seen a slightly different ratio for cats...want to say less bone off the top of my head but would have to look it up). 

And finally, i did not say don't feed raw, I said to be cautious about the cat not eating all the components, as they are all vital and if the cat skips the organ meat it can be disastrous, and I said to use a raw diet formulated by a veterinary nutritionist. 

51 minutes ago, Tanaqui said:

Isn't corn short on lysine if it isn't treated first? Low lysine = eventual pellagra.

Yes, all grains tend to be lacking some and high in others. That's why they are combined with other ingredients. Corn is high in some amino acids, lower in others. other ingredients in the food will have a different profile, and work together. In particular, corn is higher in the amino acids that are precursors to taurine than say, peas. (dogs can make it from those precursors, cats need it directly) Eating only corn by itself would definitely be bad (for a human or a dog or a cat) So would eating only peas. Or only chicken breast for that matter. 

51 minutes ago, sweet2ndchance said:

 Our vet recommends avoiding corn for most pets who would not purposely go look for corn specifically in the wild. 

I get that, I was just trying to understand why that wouldn't also apply to say, barley or potatoes or whatnot. I don't think a cat or dog would normally forage on those more or less than corn. 

Edited August 8, 2019 by Ktgrok

[sweet2ndchance]

2 minutes ago, Ktgrok said:

I get that, I was just trying to understand why that wouldn't also apply to say, barley or potatoes or whatnot. I don't think a cat or dog would normally forage on those more or less than corn. 

Very true. I don't think they would forage for those things specifically either. I don't think any commercial animal food is going to be perfect because it just can't be. It's just not possible. What if we ate kibble once or twice a day every day? It might have a good mix of ingredients with most or almost all of our daily dietary needs but it would need fillers to stick together in little nuggets. It may need artificial or natural coloring to make it look at least a little appetizing. Then what about people like our dog with corn sensitivity issues or me with anaphylactic tomato allergy? Now there needs to be a different food for people like us who cannot have certain ingredients. And what works to make the kibble appetizing and uniform in appearance for most people might not work as well when you change the ingredients to deal with sensitivities and allergies.

I know lots of people who feed their pets the cheapest food they can find because it is what they can afford. The first ingredient in cheap dog or cat food is often corn or some other grain. Yet their animals survive, and even thrive, in spite of the cheap food they eat everyday. Even the Victor brand that we use, that isn't the most expensive but isn't the cheapest either, has sorghum as the #2 or #3 ingredient, I can't remember off the top of my head. It may not be perfect or the best but the dogs eat it without any problem and it solved the issue we had of excessive itchiness in one of our dogs and had pleasant side effects of less stomach upset so even though it isn't perfect and isn't grain free (grain free is what I look for when we have to buy another brand because like I said, grain free is also the most likely to be corn free, at least in my area, but I still double check the ingredients every time), it does afford our animals a healthy and happy existence in our care.

 

 

[Spy Car]

42 minutes ago, Ktgrok said:

Bill, i VERY clearly stated the pate formulations. What you are saying is untrue. The pate formulations do not have wheat, soy, etc. Here is a link to the pate chicken flavor (first one I grabbed) and you can clearly see the ingredients are meat based. https://www.fancyfeast.com/gourmet-cat-food/wet-cat-food/timeless-favorites/classic-pate/chicken-feast

As for byproducts, those organs you tout as 10 percent of PMR are byproducts. There is actually a clear definition for byproducts in the pet food industry. They are a good source of nutrition. Not to mention, people have been feeding byproducts to animals a long time. It's that or bury or burn them. 

And yes, in the other thread I specified it was on an 'as fed" basis, because the high water content is involved. Dry matter basis is different. But friskies pate still has a small amount of rice as the last ingredient by weight, below all the meat ingredients (other than vitamins, etc). 

Not to mention as I stated as well, cats are notorious for not eating what they don't want to, so it is hard to get them to eat exactly 80/10/10 (ahtough I've seen a slightly different ratio for cats...want to say less bone off the top of my head but would have to look it up). 

And finally, i did not say don't feed raw, I said to be cautious about the cat not eating all the components, as they are all vital and if the cat skips the organ meat it can be disastrous, and I said to use a raw diet formulated by a veterinary nutritionist. 

Yes, all grains tend to be lacking some and high in others. That's why they are combined with other ingredients. Corn is high in some amino acids, lower in others. other ingredients in the food will have a different profile, and work together. In particular, corn is higher in the amino acids that are precursors to taurine than say, peas. (dogs can make it from those precursors, cats need it directly) Eating only corn by itself would definitely be bad (for a human or a dog or a cat) So would eating only peas. Or only chicken breast for that matter. 

I get that, I was just trying to understand why that wouldn't also apply to say, barley or potatoes or whatnot. I don't think a cat or dog would normally forage on those more or less than corn. 

The issue with "meat by-products" isn't due to the value of fresh organs, but rather what sort of filthy practices pet food companies are allowed to get way with in using unnamed animal parts that have been condemned for human consumption, including the use of dead, downed, diseased, and dying animals as legal ingredients.

Under the current (preposterous) food labeling laws a pet food company can legally boast that by-products and other meats that have been condemned for human consumption come from "USDA inspected facilities" without mentioning that they failed inspection, so long as they are sent to a rendering plant.

Just as they are allowed to send dead dogs and cats to rendering plants, which they label "meat meal" or "meat by-products."

Don't you know that?

Bill 

[ktgrok]

12 minutes ago, Spy Car said:

The issue with "meat by-products" isn't due to the value of fresh organs, but rather what sort of filthy practices pet food companies are allowed to get way with in using unnamed animal parts that have been condemned for human consumption, including the use of dead, downed, diseased, and dying animals as legal ingredients.

Under the current (preposterous) food labeling laws a pet food company can legally boast that by-products and other meats that have been condemned for human consumption come from "USDA inspected facilities" without mentioning that they failed inspection, so long as they are sent to a rendering plant.

Just as they are allowed to send dead dogs and cats to rendering plants, which they label "meat meal" or "meat by-products."

Don't you know that?

Bill 

The inspection practices and them sliding by with things would apply to all ingredients, not just byproducts. And if we are being totally honest, sliding by with things happens in human food more than I like as well. And yes, I do know what can and can't be labeled as meat meal, meat byproducts, chicken by products, etc etc. I had to take a test on it, in fact. 

For more information on byproducts: https://vetnutrition.tufts.edu/2016/05/dont-be-bothered-by-by-products/

"For example, the regulatory definition of mammal by-products specifically exclude hair, hooves, horn, hide trimmings, manure and intestinal contents, as well as anything that is not specifically part of the carcass (e.g., floor sweepings, trash). If you see a company or a website that says that any of these items can be found in by-products in pet foods, then you know that they either are unaware of the laws or that they are purposely trying to mislead you."

Don't you know that?

 

Edited August 8, 2019 by Ktgrok

[Spy Car]

4 minutes ago, Ktgrok said:

The inspection practices and them sliding by with things would apply to all ingredients, not just byproducts. And if we are being totally honest, sliding by with things happens in human food more than I like as well. And yes, I do know what can and can't be labeled as meat meal, meat byproducts, chicken by products, etc etc. I had to take a test on it, in fact. 

For more information on byproducts: https://vetnutrition.tufts.edu/2016/05/dont-be-bothered-by-by-products/

"For example, the regulatory definition of mammal by-products specifically exclude hair, hooves, horn, hide trimmings, manure and intestinal contents, as well as anything that is not specifically part of the carcass (e.g., floor sweepings, trash). If you see a company or a website that says that any of these items can be found in by-products in pet foods, then you know that they either are unaware of the laws or that they are purposely trying to mislead you."

Don't you know that?

 

It is the term "meat by-products" that allows for the most abuses of sanitary practices. You must be aware. Instead you are engaging in sophistry.

To reiterate, it is not the ingredients themselves (such as nutritious organs) that are the problem. It is what unethical producers can get away with under the rubric of "meat meal" or meat by-products." Wise consumers know these are red flags.

Bill

 

 

 

 

[ktgrok]

1 minute ago, Spy Car said:

It is the term "meat by-products" that allows for the most abuses of sanitary practices. You must be aware. Instead you are engaging in sophistry.

To reiterate, it is not the ingredients themselves (such as nutritious organs) that are the problem. It is what unethical producers can get away with under the rubric of "meat meal" or meat by-products." Wise consumers know these are red flags.

Bill

 

 

 

 

Meat byproducts and chicken byproducts and byproduct meal are different terms with different definitions that include different things. I believe you are referencing the use of rendered meat meal and/or meat byproduct meal, which often has an assortment of animal products mixed together. But that is not the same thing as "chicken byproducts" or "lamb byproducts" etc, which are not rendered and come from a specific animal.

Plenty of wise consumers, people with far more eduction in nutrition than you have, purchase foods with byproducts for their pets and do not consider them red flags. 

But, for clarity, can we just stipulate, to avoid clogging up every pet food thread ever with you saying the same things 38 times, that you are against factory produced pet food of any kind, and kibbles in particular. Except Victor, which you would feed if you had to. We all get it. We do. 

Some of us just come to different conclusions, often based on the expertise of very smart people who have spent countless years of their lives focused on the subject of animal nutrition. People who have actually been to pet food manufacturing plants, etc. 

[The Governess]

We fed our previous dogs California Natural kibble. I believe it was a lamb and rice formula - one of the few that worked well for one of our dogs with sensitivities. 

Our current puppy is getting Wellness kibble - it is a puppy formula with turkey, salmon, and oatmeal as the main ingredients. We will switch her to the adult version once she finished the current bag because she is pretty much full grown now.

Our dogs have always been free-fed kibble with occasional treats of meat and dog-safe fruits and veggies. They have done very well with this diet and have maintained a healthy weight, soft and shiny coat, lots of energy, etc. Our two previous dogs lived to 15 and 16 years and had no health issues until their last year or so of life.

[Spy Car]

22 minutes ago, Ktgrok said:

Meat byproducts and chicken byproducts and byproduct meal are different terms with different definitions that include different things. I believe you are referencing the use of rendered meat meal and/or meat byproduct meal, which often has an assortment of animal products mixed together. But that is not the same thing as "chicken byproducts" or "lamb byproducts" etc, which are not rendered and come from a specific animal.

Plenty of wise consumers, people with far more eduction in nutrition than you have, purchase foods with byproducts for their pets and do not consider them red flags. 

But, for clarity, can we just stipulate, to avoid clogging up every pet food thread ever with you saying the same things 38 times, that you are against factory produced pet food of any kind, and kibbles in particular. Except Victor, which you would feed if you had to. We all get it. We do. 

Some of us just come to different conclusions, often based on the expertise of very smart people who have spent countless years of their lives focused on the subject of animal nutrition. People who have actually been to pet food manufacturing plants, etc. 

The use of "nonspecific" parts like "meat meal" or "meat by-products" opens the pathway for very bad industry practices. You know that's true, but deflect with straw man arguments.

Those who know the truth about food labeling laws and industry practices sure as heck know that "meat by-products" are a huge red flag. It is foolish to reason otherwise.

I'm happy to stop responding to threads when you stop spinning falsehoods.

Your characterizations of my reasonings are false and highly insulting.

Bill

 

 

 

Edited August 8, 2019 by Spy Car

[ktgrok]

1 minute ago, Spy Car said:

The use of "nonspecific" parts like "meat meal" or "meat by-products" opens the pathway for very bad industry practices. You know that's true, but deflect with straw man arguments.

Those who know the truth about food labeling laws and industry practices sure as heck know that "meat by-products" are a huge red flag. It is foolish to reason otherwise.

I'm happy to stop responding to threads when you stop spinning falsehoods.

Bill

 

 

 

For clarity, what happened:

 I mentioned pate style cat food.

You then posted about horrible ingredients in cat food, including wheat gluten and soybean meal. Except those are not the ingredients of the type of food I mentioned.

I provided a link to the ingredients of the pate style food to show no, it does not have wheat, soy, etc. 

Rather than admit your mistake, you then picked out another ingredient to focus on, byproducts, claiming non specific abuses.

I clarified what the legal definition of byproducts does and doesn't include, and provided a link to a veterinary school website with more information from experts in the field. 

You then said I was lying. 

[Spy Car]

Just now, Ktgrok said:

For clarity, what happened:

 I mentioned pate style cat food.

You then posted about horrible ingredients in cat food, including wheat gluten and soybean meal. Except those are not the ingredients of the type of food I mentioned.

I provided a link to the ingredients of the pate style food to show no, it does not have wheat, soy, etc. 

Rather than admit your mistake, you then picked out another ingredient to focus on, byproducts, claiming non specific abuses.

I clarified what the legal definition of byproducts does and doesn't include, and provided a link to a veterinary school website with more information from experts in the field. 

You then said I was lying. 

LOL. We both know the issue with non-specific "meat by-products" is in what practices that term allows. Yet you play games.

Clean healthy organs are a great ingredient in the right proportions. Unnamed "meat by-products" are a huge read flag, as all informed people involved with pet nutrition are aware, but you feign not to know this. Why?

Bill

 

[ktgrok]

7 minutes ago, Spy Car said:

LOL. We both know the issue with non-specific "meat by-products" is in what practices that term allows. Yet you play games.

Clean healthy organs are a great ingredient in the right proportions. Unnamed "meat by-products" are a huge read flag, as all informed people involved with pet nutrition are aware, but you feign not to know this. Why?

Bill

 

So the experts at Tufts veterinary school are not informed regarding pet nutrition, by your standards?

Also, "everybody knows that" is not a convincing argument. 

Edited August 8, 2019 by Ktgrok

[Spy Car]

Just now, Ktgrok said:

So the experts at Tufts veterinary school are not informed regarding pet nutrition, by your standards?

Also, "everybody knows that" is not a convincing argument. 

Do the experts at Tufts University advocate feeding downed, dead, dying, and diseased animals to pets? Or claiming that condemned parts come from "USDA inspected facilities" as a way to trick consumers?

I think not.

You are once again obfuscating.

Bill

[ktgrok]

1 minute ago, Spy Car said:

Do the experts at Tufts University advocate feeding downed, dead, dying, and diseased animals to pets? Or claiming that condemned parts come from "USDA inspected facilities" as a way to trick consumers?

I think not.

You are once again obfuscating.

Bill

I quoted them, and linked the entire article about what they say regarding byproducts. That's documenting, not obfuscating. 

[Spy Car]

10 minutes ago, Ktgrok said:

I quoted them, and linked the entire article about what they say regarding byproducts. That's documenting, not obfuscating. 

No one disagrees that wholesome, clean, fresh organs are fine ingredients.

That truth should never be a cover for bad industry practices. 

All unnamed non-specific by-products and meals are huge red flags to informed consumers. We both know that is true.

Bill 

[Tanaqui]

At the risk of sounding facetious, let it go! You're like a dog with a bone, Bill, and yet you're still barking up the wrong tree with your approach.

[Spy Car]

Just now, Tanaqui said:

At the risk of sounding facetious, let it go! You're like a dog with a bone, Bill, and yet you're still barking up the wrong tree with your approach.

Thank you for your informative post.

Bill

[Tanaqui]

All I'm saying is that every time you post about dogs and/or carbs, I feel a sudden, irrational urge to give my doggies some potato chips washed down with mini donuts. Which they would absolutely love. But they're small dogs! They can't take that sort of extra empty calories in their diet! For the sake of my dogs, please, please, please - you've made your point.

[Spy Car]

3 minutes ago, Tanaqui said:

All I'm saying is that every time you post about dogs and/or carbs, I feel a sudden, irrational urge to give my doggies some potato chips washed down with mini donuts. Which they would absolutely love. But they're small dogs! They can't take that sort of extra empty calories in their diet! For the sake of my dogs, please, please, please - you've made your point.

I'm not responsible for your irrational urges to give your dogs junk food.

If you find my post unhelpful to you, I'd suggest not reading them.

We don't want your little fellas to come to harm.

Bill (a kindhearted animal lover)

 

[Elfknitter.#]

On 8/7/2019 at 2:28 PM, Familia said:

This is a 'JAWE' post...

Just agree with everyone!  Meaning, I would like to see what other concerned dog/cat lovers have decided to feed their pets after their did their research, wracked their brains, and searched their pocketbooks.  No bashing of anyone else's decision!

It can be so stressful knowing what to fed our pets.  In case it is of any help to anyone, this is what we have settled upon for our 75# dog.  We desired to use kibble.  We were influenced by these board discussions to rotate between brands a little and use kibbles of at least 30% protein.  I was relieved to not see our brands on the DCM list on the other thread, so I do not have to go through the decision process again.  After making charts to compare protein/costs/stores, this is what is best for us:

Rotate every  two bags:

• Victor Hi-Pro Plus (cheapest at Rural King 40#)
• Purina One SmartBlend True Instinct Turkey & Venison (Rural King or Chewy same price for 27.5#)

Each serving gets topped with a dollop of

• Solid Gold Green Cow Tripe or Solid Gold Sun Dancer (cheapest at Chewy, but they kept sending dented cans.  I do not do dented cans, so I pick the cans myself at Petsmart)

 

Please post your pet food picking process and the resulting choice.  Because, maybe what you have decided for your dog or cat can help someone else choose their brand so they can move on with life.  I, for one, need help finding a higher protein cat food, and I would rather learn from your experience then do the research myself LOL

Just a bolded reminder of what the OP posted....

[ktgrok]

1 hour ago, Spy Car said:

No one disagrees that wholesome, clean, fresh organs are fine ingredients.

That truth should never be a cover for bad industry practices. 

All unnamed non-specific by-products and meals are huge red flags to informed consumers. We both know that is true.

Bill 

Funny how at first it was wheat gluten, except that wasn't even IN the food, then it was all by-proucts, and now it is non-specific byproducts.And the proof is "you know". 

Myself and many others who are, in fact, well informed, choose to feed dog food and cat food that has byproducts in it. In fact, I specifically look for byproducts as an ingredient because I prefer that the food contain some organs. Others, including those who have studied animal nutrition at the graduate level and actually visited the places the food is made, do this as well. 

You can disagree, but don't tell me what I think or know. 

 

 

[Tanaqui]

1 hour ago, Spy Car said:

I'm not responsible for your irrational urges to give your dogs junk food.

If you find my post unhelpful to you, I'd suggest not reading them.

We don't want your little fellas to come to harm.

Bill (a kindhearted animal lover)

 

 

Sure, but you get what I'm saying, right? You're not convincing anybody. You're just annoying a lot of people. (Also, it's hard to skim past your comments. There are a lot of them, and they're wordy, with a lot of whitespace at the bottom, and then lots of other people reply to you.)

[kokotg]

I'd just like to say that, as someone who was a regular poster years ago and then took a break, I'm....fascinated, I guess? that Bill's still around. IIRC relentless pro-circumcision posts were his thing back in my day....unless I have him mixed up with some other dude who talks a lot.

[ktgrok]

Just now, kokotg said:

I'd just like to say that, as someone who was a regular poster years ago and then took a break, I'm....fascinated, I guess? that Bill's still around. IIRC relentless pro-circumcision posts were his thing back in my day....unless I have him mixed up with some other dude who talks a lot.

Nope that's him. Circumcision, sous vide, the benefits of teamsports, and raw dog food.