Men vs Women gymnastics-why different clothes/moves?

[Corraleno]

6 minutes ago, Bluegoat said:

This is so common most people now have a distorted sense of how women should look as they age.

That word, "should," keeps cropping up with reference to older women. Who gets to decide what a 40, 50, or 60 yr old woman "should" look like? How is it any less sexist to insist that women of a certain age should have gray hair and wrinkles and no makeup and, according to at least some people, wear shapeless, unfashionable clothes? Why do you think that restricting other women's choices "for their own good" is helpful and empowering, but letting them make their own choices about what makes them look and feel good is not acceptable? 

[Frances]

2 hours ago, MysteryJen said:

Moonflower, do you really think that men do not try to present themselves as attractive and desirable? It is a very weird idea to be opposed to mixed gender workplaces because women dress like women.

You could easily say the problem is that men view woman as sex objects regardless of what they wear and because sometimes people have affairs at work. That has nothing to do with how a woman dresses and everything to do with behavior. Men are not so easily led astray and if they are it is a character problem.

I agree. As an example, I doubt affairs are any less common in many healthcare jobs where almost everyone, male and female, is wearing scrubs.

Edited February 17, 2019 by Frances

[Corraleno]

9 minutes ago, maize said:

 

Re: the bolded...saying something is being influenced by strong cultural currents does not equate to saying that it is being forced on women by men. That is an assumption you are making about what others are saying that from my perspective does not actually fit what has been said.

If it's not something that is imposed on women by men, then why is it not an acceptable choice for women? Why shouldn't women who want to wear form-fitting clothes and high heels and makeup be able to choose that for themselves, without it being implied that they've been brainwashed by a patriarchal culture?

[Bluegoat]

17 minutes ago, Corraleno said:

In other words, if women would just stop dressing like women, then affairs wouldn't happen because men wouldn't be so tempted to screw around? The blame for consensual affairs between coworkers falls 100% on all those sexy temptresses in their navy suits and bow blouses and sensible pumps and nude lipstick, because men just can't help themselves???

How do you think women should dress? That question has been asked at least half a dozen times but has never been answered. Should we impose a generic unisex uniform like Mao did in China — shapeless blue cotton suits and basic haircuts for everyone? Baggy trousers and unfitted, crew neck sweaters that avoid showing any outline of breasts? Do you think that would put an end to sex in the workplace? 

 

There is no answer to that question.

It's really a matter of being self-aware, so that we understand the forces that shape our way of perceiving the world.  And maybe that would give some sense of what things would be better abandoned.

Personally, I think it would be sensible to look at ramping down all the trends that really push toward people looking younger than they do naturally, and any that are invasive, a danger to health, or use a stupid amount of economic and environmental resources. Often these groups overlap pretty significantly.

I would tend to include hair colour, any kind of cosmetic procedure, probably very high heels though it pains me because I do love a pair of go-go boots, shaving of the genitals and maybe the body as a whole.  I think a lot of the heavy make up popular with young people now is a problem as well.

If no one did these things, we'd be used to it, and no one would miss them - to some extent they've been pushed by industry anyway or even wholly invented to sell products.

I think it would be great too if women in sports and entertainment weren't pressured so relentlessly with regard to sex, to the point that sex appeal or performing sexuality publicly becomes key to careers in those areas.

[Bluegoat]

8 minutes ago, Corraleno said:

That word, "should," keeps cropping up with reference to older women. Who gets to decide what a 40, 50, or 60 yr old woman "should" look like? How is it any less sexist to insist that women of a certain age should have gray hair and wrinkles and no makeup and, according to at least some people, wear shapeless, unfashionable clothes? Why do you think that restricting other women's choices "for their own good" is helpful and empowering, but letting them make their own choices about what makes them look and feel good is not acceptable? 

 

This is wholly objective.  I mean, many people now are unaware that it is absolutely normal for nearly all 60 year old women to be grey-haired.  That is what 60 year old women look like if you do not cover their natural hair.

As a result, people feel grey hair makes them and others look old, rather than making them look 50 or 60.

It's rather as if suddenly people began, in large numbers, wearing shoes that made them look like they really were taller. Over time, people would begin to perceive that height as normal, and people not wearing them would seem short.

That is part of why these kind of trends are never wholly about individual choice - our perceptions are influenced by what we see all the time around us and that affects our decisions.  If only dowdy or very elderly women have grey hair, that will affect how many people feel about their own hair when it begins to turn grey.

[Frances]

On 2/16/2019 at 7:19 PM, Bluegoat said:

 

This is wholly objective.  I mean, many people now are unaware that it is absolutely normal for nearly all 60 year old women to be grey-haired.  That is what 60 year old women look like if you do not cover their natural hair.

As a result, people feel grey hair makes them and others look old, rather than making them look 50 or 60.

It's rather as if suddenly people began, in large numbers, wearing shoes that made them look like they really were taller. Over time, people would begin to perceive that height as normal, and people not wearing them would seem short.

That is part of why these kind of trends are never wholly about individual choice - our perceptions are influenced by what we see all the time around us and that affects our decisions.  If only dowdy or very elderly women have grey hair, that will affect how many people feel about their own hair when it begins to turn grey.

I just don’t view grey hair that way at all, but maybe I’m completely alone. 

Edited March 3, 2019 by Frances

[Corraleno]

17 minutes ago, Bluegoat said:

 

This is wholly objective.  I mean, many people now are unaware that it is absolutely normal for nearly all 60 year old women to be grey-haired.  That is what 60 year old women look like if you do not cover their natural hair.

As a result, people feel grey hair makes them and others look old, rather than making them look 50 or 60.

It's rather as if suddenly people began, in large numbers, wearing shoes that made them look like they really were taller. Over time, people would begin to perceive that height as normal, and people not wearing them would seem short.

That is part of why these kind of trends are never wholly about individual choice - our perceptions are influenced by what we see all the time around us and that affects our decisions.  If only dowdy or very elderly women have grey hair, that will affect how many people feel about their own hair when it begins to turn grey.

But why should it bother you, or anyone else, if a woman wants to dye her hair??? Or wear makeup or fashionable clothes? Why should women be required to go gray, even if they don't like the way that looks? Some women look fabulous with gray or white hair (generally women whose natural hair color is darker and whose coloring goes well with white hair) and others just look washed out (often blondes whose hair just looks beigey-gray and who don't have coloring that looks good with that). Why is choosing your hair color any worse than choosing the color of your blouse or jacket? Women generally choose colors that flatter them and make them look good. I don't understand why that's a problem.

 

Edited February 17, 2019 by Corraleno

[Catwoman]

19 minutes ago, Bluegoat said:

 

This is wholly objective. [b I mean, many people now are unaware that it is absolutely normal for nearly all 60 year old women to be grey-haired.[/b]  That is what 60 year old women look like if you do not cover their natural hair.

As a result, people feel grey hair makes them and others look old, rather than making them look 50 or 60.

It's rather as if suddenly people began, in large numbers, wearing shoes that made them look like they really were taller. Over time, people would begin to perceive that height as normal, and people not wearing them would seem short.

That is part of why these kind of trends are never wholly about individual choice - our perceptions are influenced by what we see all the time around us and that affects our decisions.  If only dowdy or very elderly women have grey hair, that will affect how many people feel about their own hair when it begins to turn grey.

 

How could women possibly not realize that it is normal for them to have gray hair by the time they’re 60 if they are already coloring their hair in their 30’s and 40’s to “look younger?” By your reasoning, women would be terribly upset by even a few gray hairs, and would immediately start coloring those grays, so I would think that if a woman fears looking older, she is probably quite aware of things like when her hair is likely to go gray.

And why does it matter if women think they look better without gray hair? Many women have hair that goes gray in odd patterns or isn’t a flattering shade, so they decide to color their it. Women have colored their hair for a very, very long time, and I see no reason why they shouldn’t change the color if it makes them happy.

Honestly, sometimes I think people go out of their way to look for any little reason to make it appear that women are oppressed and that they will do anything in order to be attractive to men. It’s never about what the women want for themselves — and if a woman says she is doing things like coloring her hair because she enjoys doing it, the argument is that she is basically too clueless to realize that she is being controlled by the media or that she is subconsciously doing it all because it’s what men want her to do. 

[Corraleno]

6 minutes ago, Frances said:

I just don’t view grey hair that way at all, but maybe I’m completely alone. Last night I went with my husband to visit his work place and drop off some treats, before visiting a neighbor in the same hospital. All of the over 50 women in his work room had grey hair and weren’t wearing make-up and they looked great. Yes, you could tell they were older than the 20 somethings in the room, but they still looked great. Why? In my opinion, it’s  because they have a skin tone that looks great with their grey hair. Similar to my mom, MIL, and brother. They all rock grey hair. I don’t have that skin tone, but I certainly wish I did. Grey hair just makes me look completely washed out. That’s why I color my hair.

Exactly — I can think of lots of older women who look stunning with gray or white hair: Jamie Lee Curtis, Helen Mirren, Julie Walters, Cindy Josephs, Judi Dench, and there are quite a few older models now with gray hair who look absolutely beautiful. Helen Mirren is in her 70s and she wears gorgeous clothes and makeup and frankly still looks sexy as hell, gray hair and wrinkles and all. I do not look good with gray hair, I look totally washed out and half-dead, because my natural color is dark blonde and it just looks like a really mousy beige color when it's half gray. I get highlights, so it's a mix of different colors of blonde with a little bit of gray. "Preferring not to look half dead" does not equal "desperately trying to reclaim my youth and looking for a hook up."

[moonflower]

29 minutes ago, Corraleno said:

Exactly — I can think of lots of older women who look stunning with gray or white hair: Jamie Lee Curtis, Helen Mirren, Julie Walters, Cindy Josephs, Judi Dench, and there are quite a few older models now with gray hair who look absolutely beautiful. Helen Mirren is in her 70s and she wears gorgeous clothes and makeup and frankly still looks sexy as hell, gray hair and wrinkles and all. I do not look good with gray hair, I look totally washed out and half-dead, because my natural color is dark blonde and it just looks like a really mousy beige color when it's half gray. I get highlights, so it's a mix of different colors of blonde with a little bit of gray. "Preferring not to look half dead" does not equal "desperately trying to reclaim my youth and looking for a hook up."

 

But why do more women think they look half dead with gray hair than men do with gray hair, or why do they care more than men about looking half dead (to which the solution is cover the gray to look more youthful)?

Yes, there are women who keep their gray hair, or have white hair.  

More women than men dye their hair, get botox, use anti-wrinkle creams, wear blush-simulating and wrinkle-covering makeup, and physically alter the shape of their bodies.  That is, I assume, a given fact in the US.  I am in this case not talking about individuals but about trends in the population.

[moonflower]

44 minutes ago, Catwoman said:

 

How could women possibly not realize that it is normal for them to have gray hair by the time they’re 60 if they are already coloring their hair in their 30’s and 40’s to “look younger?” By your reasoning, women would be terribly upset by even a few gray hairs, and would immediately start coloring those grays, so I would think that if a woman fears looking older, she is probably quite aware of things like when her hair is likely to go gray.

And why does it matter if women think they look better without gray hair? Many women have hair that goes gray in odd patterns or isn’t a flattering shade, so they decide to color their it. Women have colored their hair for a very, very long time, and I see no reason why they shouldn’t change the color if it makes them happy.

Honestly, sometimes I think people go out of their way to look for any little reason to make it appear that women are oppressed and that they will do anything in order to be attractive to men. It’s never about what the women want for themselves — and if a woman says she is doing things like coloring her hair because she enjoys doing it, the argument is that she is basically too clueless to realize that she is being controlled by the media or that she is subconsciously doing it all because it’s what men want her to do. 

 

No, you're still misunderstanding me, I will try to be more clear.  I tend to be too wordy which I know inhibits clarity!

I am aware that women often use makeup or dye their hair or wear certain clothing because they enjoy it.  Sometimes they do it because they enjoy it; sometimes they do it because they feel like it is socially necessary (for example, I hate my bra but I put it on every time I leave the house because I would feel very uncomfortable without it in public - sometimes I have nightmares that I went to the store without a bra!), and sometimes they do it because they are deliberately trying to achieve a certain effect (like looking a certain way for a formal event like a wedding, or going on a fancy date, or something like that).  

I don't think these women, who include me, are either doing these things because men want them to or because they're being controlled by the media.

I do think the media influences behavior.  I think social trends influence behavior.  Neither the media nor society is controlled by men, so I'm not sure where that is coming from, but if media had no effect on behavior no one would advertise and people wouldn't behave in similar ways to other people in their social groups.

Do you think advertising has no effect on people at all?  Do you think all behavior is individually determined out of the blue and not influenced by social norms?  I will admit that that is not a perspective I share at all, so I want to be really clear because that would mean we're speaking completely past each other which is often silly to continue 🙂  

[moonflower]

1 hour ago, Corraleno said:

If it's not something that is imposed on women by men, then why is it not an acceptable choice for women? Why shouldn't women who want to wear form-fitting clothes and high heels and makeup be able to choose that for themselves, without it being implied that they've been brainwashed by a patriarchal culture?

 

Fwiw, I don't think it's the Patriarchy that Brainwashes women, or anything like that.  I definitely don't see culture as that top-down or women (or anyone) as brainwashed just for going along with a social trend.  I mean, I don't think people are brainwashed in the US because they think democracy is a good idea, or that Christians are brainwashed because they believe in Jesus, or that my DD7 is brainwashed because she currently likes unicorns and sparkles.

I do think that culture and social norms influence people, though.  I notice that there aren't as many Christians in say India, where people are exposed to a different religion from birth, and that there weren't too many full-franchise democrats in say 1300 in England, where democracy wasn't the standard and hadn't been taught as the Best Way for Everyone All the Time the way we get that messaging here in the US, and I would suspect that 7 year old girls in a culture where, oh, stripes and bears are currently the popular thing (bear with me, metaphor breaking down) probably prefer bears and strips to unicorns and sparkles.

My DD7 could not care less about bears and stripes.  Just could not care less. Do any of her friends at school have bear striped backpacks?  No they don't, they have camo backpacks and Disney backpacks and pink backpacks and polkadot backpacks and unicorn backpacks and llama backpacks and sparkle backpacks.  Maybe kittens.  Some things are a mystery.

[Frances]

11 minutes ago, moonflower said:

 

But why do more women think they look half dead with gray hair than men do with gray hair, or why do they care more than men about looking half dead (to which the solution is cover the gray to look more youthful)?

Yes, there are women who keep their gray hair, or have white hair.  

More women than men dye their hair, get botox, use anti-wrinkle creams, wear blush-simulating and wrinkle-covering makeup, and physically alter the shape of their bodies.  That is, I assume, a given fact in the US.  I am in this case not talking about individuals but about trends in the population.

Maybe because by that age most men have significantly less hair than most women, so it doesn’t really frame the face in the same way, making the contrast with facial tone less important.

[moonflower]

3 hours ago, Corraleno said:

Oh come on — if a 50 year old woman with a successful career and a happy marriage dyes her hair and wears a little bit of makeup, she's doing it in order to look like a powerless and confused 20 yr old, because that's what men want from women? Seriously???

A. What makes you think that women in their 40s, 50s, 60s are trying to look like 20 yr olds instead of successful and attractive 40/50/60 year olds?

B. Why do you think women in their 20s are powerless and confused??? I would certainly not have described myself, or any of my friends, as powerless and confused in our 20s. Most of us were kicking ass in grad school and building our careers.

C. Men's beauty is not judged any less on physical characteristics associated with youth, health, fitness, symmetry, and all the other usual attributed of physical beauty, than women are. Money and power may also be perceived as attractive, generally moreso for men than women, but that has nothing to do with physical looks. I'm sure Jeff Bezos would not have any trouble getting dates, but it's not because women are looking at him thinking "wow that guy is so hot."

 

Not my post that you were responding to, but for B; 20 year olds of both sexes have less power than older people.  They have less economic power; they have less political power (which is often tied to economic power); they have less established social connections, on account of having been and adult for less time.  I don't know about confused.

C. Yes!  For men, money and power are more evolutionarily important (that is, more selected for) than physical appearance.  I believe this is because (as I mentioned earlier) in selecting a woman, you need someone who can conceive, bear a child, nurse the child.  Ideally you want someone who can do this for many years (so that your investment is sound, biologically speaking, as women have a limited shelf life reproductively and can only produce maybe a child every year and half, safely anyway).

So it makes sense to me, given this difference in evolutionary pressure, that women would on the whole be more inclined to emphasize youth and fertility (note I am NOT TALKING ABOUT INDIVIDUAL WOMEN AND THEIR MOTIVATIONS FOR THE LOVE OF THE LORD).  The question is, why have we as a society started to expand that emphasis or presentation to women for whom the biological drive to select as a mate is misplaced (children and older women) or even destabilizing (e.g. married women)?

[EmseB]

11 minutes ago, moonflower said:

 

But why do more women think they look half dead with gray hair than men do with gray hair, or why do they care more than men about looking half dead (to which the solution is cover the gray to look more youthful)?

Yes, there are women who keep their gray hair, or have white hair.  

More women than men dye their hair, get botox, use anti-wrinkle creams, wear blush-simulating and wrinkle-covering makeup, and physically alter the shape of their bodies.  That is, I assume, a given fact in the US.  I am in this case not talking about individuals but about trends in the population.

Really, my immediate response to your question was, "Who knows?!" This is an impossible question to answer because so much of it depends on individual reasons for doing any given thing and yet you're wanting reasons why things get trendy or popular as a society or why more women like to dye their hair than men. Why does any group do x thing more than any other group? I saw a trend not too long ago where young-ish girls were going old lady purple/silver for their hair. And a trend where girls were getting ombre hair, which to me looked the same as letting their roots grow out, but what do I know? My grandma dyed her hair because it kept it softer, but she pretty much knew no one was fooled into thinking she was young. I think people change their appearance based on a whole number of reasons and sometimes those reasons are because they feel some pressure or need to look younger. Sometimes it's not that, though, and there is hardly a monolith of style or even what it means to age gracefully. I think aI lot of people like making changes like that because they can. So I'm still stuck at, "Who knows?!" But also, why does anyone care if women want to dye their hair more than men do? 

[EmseB]

11 minutes ago, moonflower said:

 

So it makes sense to me, given this difference in evolutionary pressure, that women would on the whole be more inclined to emphasize youth and fertility (note I am NOT TALKING ABOUT INDIVIDUAL WOMEN AND THEIR MOTIVATIONS FOR THE LOVE OF THE LORD).  The question is, why have we as a society started to expand that emphasis or presentation to women for whom the biological drive to select as a mate is misplaced (children and older women) or even destabilizing (e.g. married women)?

This is a bit of begging the question by assuming that is what's going on in the question itself. You're assuming the reasoning and then asking why it's happening. Your assumption is that dyeing hair, wearing makeup, dressing a certain way are trying to expand the emphasis on youth and fertility or getting a mate. That assumes a lot to start off with! And so the answers you get back are, "Well, but, I know so-and-so and so-and-so that just like to experiment with hair color, they aren't trying to pretend to be younger," or, "I'm happily married and wear makeup because I like to, not because I'm trying to find a mate!" And you get frustrated. And the people reading the question get frustrated. Because the people that are discussing this with you aren't making the same basic assumptions about what is going on.

Also, I even if there were one answer to the question, I don't think it would be the same for older married women and what we see happening with younger kids in competitive dance. So I feel like lumping them together as biologically unavailable is unhelpful and muddying the waters a bit.

At any rate, I don't think you are going to get a clear answer to this question because so much of these things are driven by individual preferences and reasons for doing these things even though they happen more in one group than another group. You can still break out subsets of women who don't dye their hair or wear as much makeup as other women, and then you could ask, well why do these women wear more makeup than these other women? There is no one set answer to this socially or otherwise. Everyone deciding to do something to their appearance is doing so for their own individual reason(s). But yet, you want the question answered on a macro level that I don't think exists because I don't think the premise is correct -- I don't think that women as a group are expanding their emphasis or presentation of youth and fertility on children or older women. You're begging the question here by inserting a reasoning for what is happening into the question

So then you get a bunch of responses of, well, I know plenty of people who do X and not for the reason you think it's happening. And we all go around the circle again with different levels of frustration.

[Catwoman]

36 minutes ago, Frances said:

Maybe because by that age most men have significantly less hair than most women, so it doesn’t really frame the face in the same way, making the contrast with facial tone less important.

 

People keep talking about women coloring their gray hair, but clearly, men are self-conscious about their hair, too. They aren’t necessarily all that excited about going gray, and I would bet that the only thing holding many men back from coloring their hair is that they are concerned that people will make jokes about it. And I know that many men are extremely self-conscious about balding. Otherwise, there would be no such thing as toupees, weaves, hair plugs, or the dreaded comb-over.

I don’t think men are nearly as confident and self-assured as some people here are assuming they are.

Edited February 17, 2019 by Catwoman

[Catwoman]

8 minutes ago, StellaM said:

I'm assuming no-one on this thread ever read The Beauty Myth ?

 

 

Actually, I have.

Why? 

 

[moonflower]

6 minutes ago, EmseB said:

This is a bit of begging the question by assuming that is what's going on in the question itself. You're assuming the reasoning and then asking why it's happening. Your assumption is that dyeing hair, wearing makeup, dressing a certain way are trying to expand the emphasis on youth and fertility or getting a mate. That assumes a lot to start off with! And so the answers you get back are, "Well, but, I know so-and-so and so-and-so that just like to experiment with hair color, they aren't trying to pretend to be younger," or, "I'm happily married and wear makeup because I like to, not because I'm trying to find a mate!" And you get frustrated. And the people reading the question get frustrated. Because the people that are discussing this with you aren't making the same basic assumptions about what is going on.

Also, I even if there were one answer to the question, I don't think it would be the same for older married women and what we see happening with younger kids in competitive dance. So I feel like lumping them together as biologically unavailable is unhelpful and muddying the waters a bit.

At any rate, I don't think you are going to get a clear answer to this question because so much of these things are driven by individual preferences and reasons for doing these things even though they happen more in one group than another group. You can still break out subsets of women who don't dye their hair or wear as much makeup as other women, and then you could ask, well why do these women wear more makeup than these other women? There is no one set answer to this socially or otherwise. Everyone deciding to do something to their appearance is doing so for their own individual reason(s). But yet, you want the question answered on a macro level that I don't think exists because I don't think the premise is correct -- I don't think that women as a group are expanding their emphasis or presentation of youth and fertility on children or older women. You're begging the question here by inserting a reasoning for what is happening into the question

So then you get a bunch of responses of, well, I know plenty of people who do X and not for the reason you think it's happening. And we all go around the circle again with different levels of frustration.

 

I see, that makes some sense.  so I guess the first question should be, are choices around personal presentation socially and/or biologically driven?  Any my answer is yes, but other people are saying no, they're not at all driven by social norms or by biology.

Is that just limited, do you think, to physical presentation?  Is any human behavior driven by social norms and/or biology? Or is most behavior subject in some way (conscious or unconscious, partial or total) to what other people do, what you see in the media, and by basic biological instinct, but somehow physical presentation is separate of that?

For me, it seems like most behavior is in part or even mostly driven by a combination of biological instinct/drive and social trends/norms (which themselves don't come from nowhere, but probably at least start as biological responses).  So like I said earlier, in areas that are Christian culturally you have more Christians, and in areas that are culturally Hindu you have more Hindus.  In places and times where the political organization is democratic, people tend to believe in the value and rightness of democracy; in monarchies I would expect fewer ardent democrats.  Socially, something like, I don't know, spitting in public or the degree of physical closeness that is normal/acceptable between strangers or level of eye contact or something seems generally more cohesive in society than you would expect if people were behaving completely independently of either social norms or biological drives.

[moonflower]

11 minutes ago, StellaM said:

I'm assuming no-one on this thread ever read The Beauty Myth ?

 

 

have not

[moonflower]

21 minutes ago, Catwoman said:

 

People keep talking about women coloring their gray hair, but clearly, men are self-conscious about their hair, too. They aren’t necessarily all that excited about going gray, and I would bet that the only thing holding many men back from coloring their hair is that they are concerned that people will make jokes about it. And I know that many men are extremely self-conscious about balding. Otherwise, there would be no such thing as toupees, weaves, hair plugs, or the dreaded comb-over.

I don’t think men are nearly as confident and self-assured as some people here are assuming they are.

 

I don't see men as necessarily more self-confident or assured, esp. not in the modern West.  I do think they purchase fewer products and perform fewer actions geared toward looking younger or more sexually available; certainly young boys' clothes don't sexualize them in the same way that young girls' clothes do, imo.

I do agree that men perform some behaviors to enhance the appearance of continued youth and virility.  I disagree that they do this on anything like the scale that women do, and I suggest the reason why is partially because they are less stringently selected for sexually in terms of youth (that is to say, they have a much longer reproduction window).  Also I geniunely think that there is some lack of respect for middle aged and older bodies (and thus, imo, people) that used to be more automatic.  Maybe it is because it's easier to live longer now and so old age isn't as valued?  Maybe it has to do with the sexual liberation movement somehow (as the times coincide to a degree)? Really I am not sure.  It does affect both men and women, but I don't know how you can't look at the crowd at the State of the Union address and not see that women are more affected by this than men.

Edited February 17, 2019 by moonflower

[EmseB]

4 minutes ago, StellaM said:

I can't understand how y'all believe there are no top down cultural or social pressures at work on women.

I literally do not recognise this idea that all girls and women are moving merrily through life making completely free and individual choices at all times. I also find it difficult to believe that anyone who grew up pre-90's cannot see the change in - just as one example - girls' clothing.

https://www.collectiveshout.org/target_under_fire_for_sexualising_girls_again

https://www.psypost.org/2011/05/young-girls-clothing-is-sexualized-5426

https://melindatankardreist.com/2016/07/just-when-you-thought-sexualising-of-girls-in-the-dance-industry-couldnt-get-worse/

No one has said there are no pressures. I think I've said the opposite at least once in this thread and I have not equivocated about what I think of the sexualization of young girls.

But, Stella, I could go pull three links right now of companies selling modest girls clothing -- major US retailers, not some modesty religious shop. Could I find the bad stuff too? Definitely! And I don't deny it's a problem. But I don't think the problem is that the options aren't there or that there is so much pressure for us to dress in any particular sexual way. I think it's something different.

I think fashion in general is becoming so decentralized and varied that what people wear, how much makeup they have on, what they do with their hair, is way less of a concern than it once was. There is so much out there to wear that I think looks professional and put together and has nothing to do with presenting me as a sexual object or necessarily younger than I am...I can't understand how people think that what women primarily wear to work is based on top down cultural pressure about appearance. But all I have is individual experience among myself and my peers, and watching my mom move up a corporate ladder from the late '80s till now and it seems from that perspective that, yeah, she's making individual free choices, none of my peers are out trying to obtain some weird standard of beauty or sexuality.

[EmseB]

18 minutes ago, moonflower said:

 

I see, that makes some sense.  so I guess the first question should be, are choices around personal presentation socially and/or biologically driven?  Any my answer is yes, but other people are saying no, they're not at all driven by social norms or by biology.

No, I don't think that's what people are saying. I think they are saying it is a combination of factors that may include the above. And it may be driven by a social norm like cleanliness = attractive. So, thus, if women feel they don't have time to shower they will buy dry shampoo so that they look as though they are cleaner than they really are because they feel like that's what valuable in society when they go out. Someone else might buy dry shampoo because they hate the way their hair feels when it's greasy.  Or another could be a social norm that healthy = attractive, so we might go running every day in order to remain healthy, but at the same time someone else might go running every day because they like the way it makes them feel. My point is we can't always know and sometimes there isn't one overarching social norm driving something, but there might be different social norms driving the same trend. I am probably not making much sense at this point in the day.

To me, I think you've narrowed it down to one social norm that must be driving a whole bunch of different choices, like youth & fertility = attractive, and so any cosmetic changes women in particular are making (especially if they are different than what men are doing) you are attributing to that one thing. And I don't think it's any one thing that can be pinned down that way.

[EmseB]

3 hours ago, StellaM said:

 

I tell this to my kids all the time 🙂

What's the quote? "Well, I could agree with you, but then we'd both be wrong."

😬

Edited February 17, 2019 by EmseB
looking for correct smiley

[Catwoman]

25 minutes ago, StellaM said:

 

Then you'll know that there is plenty of evidence that  women and girls experience more pressure to conform to an unnatural standard of beauty (much of it coming from industry that profits from making females insecure about their looks, through the medium of advertising.)

It was bad back then and I don't see any evidence it's gotten better since. 

The sexualisation of girls is part of that marketing - if companies can drive the idea that girls 'need' to be sexy too, hey! they've got a brand new market to profit from. 

 

 

To be honest, I wasn’t as impressed with the book as you seem to have been. Naomi Wolf makes some interesting observations, but I found the book to be very biased as well as somewhat outdated. 

[Frances]

24 minutes ago, StellaM said:

I can't understand how y'all believe there are no top down cultural or social pressures at work on women.

I literally do not recognise this idea that all girls and women are moving merrily through life making completely free and individual choices at all times. I also find it difficult to believe that anyone who grew up pre-90's cannot see the change in - just as one example - girls' clothing.

https://www.collectiveshout.org/target_under_fire_for_sexualising_girls_again

https://www.psypost.org/2011/05/young-girls-clothing-is-sexualized-5426

https://melindatankardreist.com/2016/07/just-when-you-thought-sexualising-of-girls-in-the-dance-industry-couldnt-get-worse/

I don’t think anyone on this thread disagrees that the sexualization of young girls is bad. And I personally don’t understand why any parent would purchase such clothing or allow their daughters to wear it. There are plenty of other alternatives out there.

But grown women are not young children. They have a lot more freedom and choices. I’ve never understood some threads when women are complaining about the inability to find modest, attractive clothing. For the life of me, I can’t imagine where they are shopping. It’s easily available on-line and in person.

And it’s not that I don’t think there is any cultural or social influence. I just think it’s not very strong for most women IRL in the US today. There are a very wide variety of acceptable choices available for women today.  I know my eighty year old mom is jealous of many nurses wearing comfortable cotton scrubs these days. Back when she was a young nurse, she had to wear white nylons, a fairly short while polyester dress, and a perky hat that served no purpose.

While what some are describing might be the norm on TV or in pop culture, I think it bears little resemblance to real life for most women.

[moonflower]

7 minutes ago, EmseB said:

No, I don't think that's what people are saying. I think they are saying it is a combination of factors that may include the above. And it may be driven by a social norm like cleanliness = attractive. So, thus, if women feel they don't have time to shower they will buy dry shampoo so that they look as though they are cleaner than they really are because they feel like that's what valuable in society when they go out. Someone else might buy dry shampoo because they hate the way their hair feels when it's greasy.  Or another could be a social norm that healthy = attractive, so we might go running every day in order to remain healthy, but at the same time someone else might go running every day because they like the way it makes them feel. My point is we can't always know and sometimes there isn't one overarching social norm driving something, but there might be different social norms driving the same trend. I am probably not making much sense at this point in the day.

To me, I think you've narrowed it down to one social norm that must be driving a whole bunch of different choices, like youth & fertility = attractive, and so any cosmetic changes women in particular are making (especially if they are different than what men are doing) you are attributing to that one thing. And I don't think it's any one thing that can be pinned down that way.

 

I see, so at least (between you and me anyway, I don't want to assume for everyone) we agree that there are both social norms and biological drives influencing behavior.  That makes sense!  I couldn't quite understand the idea that behavior was somehow separate of those two influences.

For something like regular exercise being driven maybe by wanting to be healthy and maybe by liking the feeling of exercise and maybe by wanting to appear more healthy (which is slightly different than wanting to be healthy, right?), that makes perfect sense and I totally agree.

Okay, so for something like makeup, say, or tighter clothing, what do you think drives those behaviors, in terms of social norms and biological drive?  For instance, I can see why running might make someone who likes the feeling of running feel good - it produces endorphins.  There is a biological mechanism to reinforce exercise, it literally makes people feel good (some people - I hate running).  For wearing tighter clothing or makeup, I can't think of the innate biological mechanism, separate of wanting to appear attractive.  You can say that it makes people feel good, and I agree, it makes people feel good.  What I want to know is why it makes people feel good, and why it makes women feel better (on average) than it makes men feel.  Because it doesn't seem to me like there's an innate mechanism to support it, separate of social norms through things like advertising or just seeing other people.  The only mechanism I can think of would be the biological drive to appear more sexually available/ attractive.

[moonflower]

19 minutes ago, EmseB said:

No, I don't think that's what people are saying. I think they are saying it is a combination of factors that may include the above. And it may be driven by a social norm like cleanliness = attractive. So, thus, if women feel they don't have time to shower they will buy dry shampoo so that they look as though they are cleaner than they really are because they feel like that's what valuable in society when they go out. Someone else might buy dry shampoo because they hate the way their hair feels when it's greasy.  Or another could be a social norm that healthy = attractive, so we might go running every day in order to remain healthy, but at the same time someone else might go running every day because they like the way it makes them feel. My point is we can't always know and sometimes there isn't one overarching social norm driving something, but there might be different social norms driving the same trend. I am probably not making much sense at this point in the day.

To me, I think you've narrowed it down to one social norm that must be driving a whole bunch of different choices, like youth & fertility = attractive, and so any cosmetic changes women in particular are making (especially if they are different than what men are doing) you are attributing to that one thing. And I don't think it's any one thing that can be pinned down that way.

 

Ugh I had a great response to this and it just disappeared!  Bah! Fie!

It went something like:

I totally agree that there's a natural biological mechanism for people enjoying running, separate of social norms.  Exercise produces endorphins, right? I can believe that some people enjoy it for its own sake (not me! what I enjoy is cookies.)

I struggle to see what the biological mechanism is for wearing makeup or tighter clothing than men wear, unless it is a drive to appear more youthful or to enhance physical features that determine reproductive viability.  I get that it makes people feel good, of course  - but why do they feel good?  Does it just come out of the blue, poof! like that?  If so, why does the same thing or something similar feel good to so many different people in the same society (but more people of one class, women, than of another class, men)?  If there is a reason it feels good, what is the reason?  If the reason isn't biologically driven (that is to say, if it's not to enhance or suggest reproductive viability), and it doesn't have an innate mechanism (it doesn't produce endorphins in say someone living on a desert island who has never seen makeup or high heels before, in the way that running produces these endorphins), then surely it's possible and even likely that the good feeling is socially driven?

[moonflower]

Hah, and now both of them are there!

I give up, I'm going to go eat something carby and go to bed.

[Frances]

19 minutes ago, moonflower said:

 

Ugh I had a great response to this and it just disappeared!  Bah! Fie!

It went something like:

I totally agree that there's a natural biological mechanism for people enjoying running, separate of social norms.  Exercise produces endorphins, right? I can believe that some people enjoy it for its own sake (not me! what I enjoy is cookies.)

I struggle to see what the biological mechanism is for wearing makeup or tighter clothing than men wear, unless it is a drive to appear more youthful or to enhance physical features that determine reproductive viability.  I get that it makes people feel good, of course  - but why do they feel good?  Does it just come out of the blue, poof! like that?  If so, why does the same thing or something similar feel good to so many different people in the same society (but more people of one class, women, than of another class, men)?  If there is a reason it feels good, what is the reason?  If the reason isn't biologically driven (that is to say, if it's not to enhance or suggest reproductive viability), and it doesn't have an innate mechanism (it doesn't produce endorphins in say someone living on a desert island who has never seen makeup or high heels before, in the way that running produces these endorphins), then surely it's possible and even likely that the good feeling is socially driven?

I think many of the things women have been traditionally more likely to do enhance or change their physical appearance such as make-up, waxing, facials, skins products and treatments, hair products and coloring, etc. are becoming more widespread among men. I’ve read several articles about what a booming and growing industry there is for men’s grooming products and services. It now seems more socially acceptable for men to do any or all of these things, just as it’s long been acceptable for women to do all or none of these things.

And people keep talking about tight clothes for women. Skinny jeans on young men almost seems to be a uniform where I live. And yet the yoga pants craze I keep hearing about seems to have pretty much skipped this part of the world, unless you’re in a gym. Or maybe I just don’t go the right places to see it.

 

 

Edited February 17, 2019 by Frances

[Garga]

It’s almost 2 in the morning so you know I’m not lucid, but here is how I would dress/look if there were no social mores::

I would shave off all my hair because my hair is stupid and always looks flat and so I spend a lot of time trying to make it look lively.  That works about as well as when you try to get a surly teenager to be excited about something.  So, I’d just shave it all off and never have to spend time curling it or putting product in it ever again.  And I would save money on haircuts.

I would wear a dress made out of silk, because it feels good on my skin, that has a mock turtle neck because I’m siitting here in bed and my upper chest is cold because my pjs have a v-neck and my chest gets cold.  The sleeves would be 3/4 length so they don’t get in the way, but also I don’t have to ever feel self-consious if my upper arms are flabby.  

The dress would go to my knees and have a full skirt so I could twirl and make it go out because that’s just sinkin’ awesome!  I’d twirl around outside and no one would care. 

I’d wear something rather like boxer/briefs that men wear, but more boxer than brief.  I’d like a little more room in my undies.  No bra because I don’t really need the support, unless I’m jumping around exercising and then a sports bra that fastens in the front so it’s easy to get on and off.

I’d be in crew length socks with sandals.  If I wear shoes without socks my feet get uncomfortably sweaty and there’s nothing to wick away the sweat and the shoes or sandals get really gross.  If I wear enclosed shoes with socks, my feet still get sweaty, but now the socks are wet and can’t dry out.  So, I’d wear socks and sandals.  And not short socks because I just don’t like them.

I’d also sometimes wear a Superman (Supergirl?) cape, just because they look amazing.  Maybe when I go jogging I’d wear the cape so it would fly around behind me.

No makeup, no hairdye (on my shaved head), and I’d be covered in hair everywhere else, because I am sick of shaving my legs.  I’d be sooo hairy and happy.  Shaving is such a pain.  

I’d look like a loon!!!  But boy would I be happy.  I wish we really could wear what we really, really want without people raising eyebrows.  

Edited February 17, 2019 by Garga

[Corraleno]

2 hours ago, moonflower said:

 

But why do more women think they look half dead with gray hair than men do with gray hair, or why do they care more than men about looking half dead (to which the solution is cover the gray to look more youthful)?

Yes, there are women who keep their gray hair, or have white hair.  

More women than men dye their hair, get botox, use anti-wrinkle creams, wear blush-simulating and wrinkle-covering makeup, and physically alter the shape of their bodies.  That is, I assume, a given fact in the US.  I am in this case not talking about individuals but about trends in the population.

I think one reason women may be more inclined to think they look half dead when they're older is because women generally have smaller features to begin with and as they age their eyes get smaller/droopier, their eyebrows disappear, their hair loses it's color, and their faces lose color, so some women end up just looking like a beige smudge with no real contrast or definition in their face. Adding a little color helps replace some of that definition and contrast. OTOH, men's eyebrows tend to get bushier as they get older (not to mention nose and ear hair!), their noses get bigger, chins get longer, etc., so they don't generally lose definition and contrast. Facial expressions are a big part of communication and if your features are barely visible, that has an impact. If you look at which women are more likely to go gray and skip makeup when they're older, versus which are more likely to dye their hair and wear a little makeup, the white-hair-no-makeup folks are likely to be the ones with strong features and high-contrast coloring, and the ones who add a bit of color to their hair and faces are likely to be women like me with small features and very low-contrast coloring.

But the bigger question is... why should it matter if, or why, woman A chooses to color her hair and woman B doesn't? It seems like those two options are being assigned very different moral values, and I don't understand why having gray hair and no makeup is considered to be the more appropriate/mature/moral/superior choice.

[Garga]

6 minutes ago, Corraleno said:

I think one reason women may be more inclined to think they look half dead when they're older is because women generally have smaller features to begin with and as they age their eyes get smaller/droopier, their eyebrows disappear, their hair loses it's color, and their faces lose color, so some women end up just looking like a beige smudge with no real contrast or definition in their face. Adding a little color helps replace some of that definition and contrast. OTOH, men's eyebrows tend to get bushier as they get older (not to mention nose and ear hair!), their noses get bigger, chins get longer, etc., so they don't generally lose definition and contrast. Facial expressions are a big part of communication and if your features are barely visible, that has an impact. If you look at which women are more likely to go gray and skip makeup when they're older, versus which are more likely to dye their hair and wear a little makeup, the white-hair-no-makeup folks are likely to be the ones with strong features and high-contrast coloring, and the ones who add a bit of color to their hair and faces are likely to be women like me with small features and very low-contrast coloring.

But the bigger question is... why should it matter if, or why, woman A chooses to color her hair and woman B doesn't? It seems like those two options are being assigned very different moral values, and I don't understand why having gray hair and no makeup is considered to be the more appropriate/mature/moral/superior choice.

 

I like your first paragraph.  Very good points.

I don’t like the second one, because I don’t think this conversation is about mature/moral/superior choices.  It’s just a conversation where we try to untangle why society won’t let me dress the way I really want (see post above) but instead has other ideas of what looks “good”.  Socks and sandals and bald, yet hairy, with capes does not look good. 😄   Not that society is good or bad in what it decides is good.  Just...where did it come from?  What drives it?  The climate?  Dopamine?  Our daily tasks? (Like, if I was a superhero, I would certainly not wear that cape!)

Edited February 17, 2019 by Garga

[Corraleno]

4 minutes ago, Garga said:

 

I like your first paragraph.  Very good points.

I don’t like the second one, because I don’t think this conversation is about mature/moral/superior choices.  It’s just a conversation where we try to untangle why society won’t let me dress the way I really want (see post above) but instead has other ideas of what looks “good”.  Socks and sandals and bald, yet hairy, with capes does not look good. 😄   Not that society is good or bad in what it decides is good.  Just...where did it come from?  What drives it?  The climate?  Dopamine?  Our daily tasks? (Like, if I was a superhero, I would certainly not wear that cape!)

When someone uses words like "inappropriate," "degenerate," and "destabilizing to society" with reference to the way women dress, there is definitely a moral judgement there, whether it's meant to apply to individual women or not. When the choice to dye one's hair or wear make-up and fashionable clothes requires justification, but going gray, makeup-free, and wearing frumpy clothes is seen as the "age appropriate" choice, then, yeah, there is a judgment there.

Regarding the prior post about how you'd really dress if you could, you can do quite a lot of that without even looking weird! ModCloth sells dresses with 3/4 sleeves and full skirts, or you could make your own. Make them ankle-length if you want to hide hairy legs and socks. Or get some flowy, wide-legged pants. Buy some silk boxers, rock a cape, and get your hair cut in a super short pixie! Look at someone like Iris Apfel — wear whatever makes you happy with total confidence, and you'll look great!

(And I would love for someone to try to tell me that Iris's makeup is supposed to make her look like a powerless, sexually available 20 yr old, lol)

 

[Corraleno]

5 minutes ago, StellaM said:

There's a lot of money that goes into Iris' look. 

I have no idea why people would hold that up as fantastically liberating.

Oh please. 🙄 She's an example of someone who wears whatever the heck she wants that makes her happy, even though it's well outside the norm, and she obviously could not care less about meeting American standards of youth or sexiness. So yeah I think that's pretty liberating, and it was just something I threw in at the end of that post as an encouragement to Garga to wear what makes her happy. Whether Iris spends money on her outfits or makes them herself is entirely beside the point — I could replicate her whole outfit for about $100 with a sewing machine, paper mache, and a set of paints if that's what floated my boat.

[hshibley]

7 hours ago, StellaM said:

I can't understand how y'all believe there are no top down cultural or social pressures at work on women.

I literally do not recognise this idea that all girls and women are moving merrily through life making completely free and individual choices at all times. I also find it difficult to believe that anyone who grew up pre-90's cannot see the change in - just as one example - girls' clothing.

https://www.collectiveshout.org/target_under_fire_for_sexualising_girls_again

https://www.psypost.org/2011/05/young-girls-clothing-is-sexualized-5426

https://melindatankardreist.com/2016/07/just-when-you-thought-sexualising-of-girls-in-the-dance-industry-couldnt-get-worse/

I think you’re confusing what’s available to buy with what people see actual children wearing. When I pick up my kindergartener from school the girls and boys are wearing jeans and T-shirts. I realize that you’ll dismiss this as individuals making choices, but society is made up of individuals. You can’t just repeatedly dismiss people using their free will to make choices. 

 I read the Beauty Myth years ago when it first came out. Life is not that simple. Women make choices for a variety of reasons 

[hshibley]

7 hours ago, moonflower said:

 

Ugh I had a great response to this and it just disappeared!  Bah! Fie!

It went something like:

I totally agree that there's a natural biological mechanism for people enjoying running, separate of social norms.  Exercise produces endorphins, right? I can believe that some people enjoy it for its own sake (not me! what I enjoy is cookies.)

 You keep reducing women’s motivation to a simple x=y. Some people run and do experience a runner’s high. Plenty of runners never do. This is something commonly discussed on running blogs. Many people exercise for a variety of reasons - prevent or reverse type 2 diabetes, prevent or mitigate deterioration due to muscle loss balance loss in old age, prevent osteoporosis, help mitigate hormonal swings in menopause. All of these reasons have been mentioned in exercise threads on this site. None of these reasons have anything to do with sexual attractiveness or men. Women are more complex that that. 

[maize]

[maize]

The above is just the first images that pull up for men, women, and children's clothes on Target's website--I didn't do any curating.

It doesn't seem weird to y'all that all the females are showing more skin than the males? You don't think there is something culturally significant about this?

This is not a commentary on the moral value of any article of clothing displayed, just on the overall trend: females being less clothed than males.

Edited February 17, 2019 by maize

[MysteryJen]

Garga, your post made me sad. Wear what you want, for the love of Pete! Life is too short and has enough regrets already without not wearing what you want. Iris Apfel is inspiring because she loves clothes and loves wearing them and for a lot of us who do love fashion and see it as a worthy art, she is amazing.

So much of this conversation just makes me sad. I believe women are lovely and our bodies, old or young are a tremendous gift. Why wouldn't we decorate ourselves and aspire to beauty in so many simple ways? Ask the men or women who love you, you are beautiful and lovely and they notice when you believe that too. Cover up head to toe, bare your shoulder or midriff, wear whatever you want to make yourself feel as beautiful as the people who love you already think you are. And let others do the same.

Men don't have to do anything to women in this conversation, women are doing all the finger pointing, shaming, and reducing women's choices to a vague and oppressive "society."  But all I am seeing is women judging women's choices and trying to hide being tired arguments about biology, sex, and "society" to do it.

[Jean in Newcastle]

Skin is not evil. And all sorts of lengths of hems and sleeves are available. 

[maize]

39 minutes ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

Skin is not evil. And all sorts of lengths of hems and sleeves are available. 

Which goes nowhere towards addressing why our society tends to expect females to show more skin than males. Do you have an explanation?

Of course skin is not evil. If the males in the clothing ads above were showing as much skin as the females I would have no point at all.

[maize]

The question is, what is it within our culture that leads us to put female bodies on display in ways that male bodies are not put on display.

We could I suppose hypothesize that male bodies or male skin are viewed as too ugly or shameful to be made visible...

[Jean in Newcastle]

5 minutes ago, maize said:

Which goes nowhere towards addressing why our society tends to expect females to show more skin than males. Do you have an explanation?

Of course skin is not evil. If the males in the clothing ads above were showing as much skin as the females I would have no point at all.

Because once women had a choice, they decided that they wanted to show some skin.  I am so glad that we are now allowed to wear pants, to exercise in clothing that allows for free movement, that allows us to show whatever amount of skin we want to show (and no, that isn't going to cause the collapse of society), can wear a variety of fabrics, can allow our artistic side to show with haircolor and makeup.  And if someone wants to attract men, they can.  And if they just want to look pretty without harassment, they can. 

[maize]

1 hour ago, MysteryJen said:

Garga, your post made me sad. Wear what you want, for the love of Pete! 

Garga is aware that there would be undesirable social repercussions to shaving her head and wearing only what she feels like wearing.

To reiterate: humans are social creatures. Our choices are not and cannot be made in a vacuum without regard to community expectations and standards. Homo-individualis does not exist in isolation from Homo-socialis.

[maize]

1 hour ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

Because once women had a choice, they decided that they wanted to show some skin.  I am so glad that we are now allowed to wear pants, to exercise in clothing that allows for free movement, that allows us to show whatever amount of skin we want to show (and no, that isn't going to cause the collapse of society), can wear a variety of fabrics, can allow our artistic side to show with haircolor and makeup.  And if someone wants to attract men, they can.  And if they just want to look pretty without harassment, they can. 

Do you think that what is marketed to women has no impact on what we choose?

I'm sure the companies that market clothing and hair color and makeup to women will be happy to learn that the billions in advertising dollars they spend every year are simply going to waste and can be reinvested elsewhere.

Editing to add that you didn't answer the question asked. Why are females and males expected to show different amounts of skin? Why is the amount of clothing coverage being marketed to women so different from what is being marketed to men? 

What the models are wearing has nothing whatsoever to do with individual choice. They wear what they are told to wear.

Edited February 17, 2019 by maize

[Jean in Newcastle]

I am proud of my female body (as middle-aged and apple-shaped as it is).  I want my daughter to be proud of her body.  If she wants to wear clothing that conforms to her God-given shape, then more power to her.  If she wants to show a leg or even (gasp!) her decolletage, then it's her choice.  That isn't an invitation for sex. 

Men have a lot less choices when it comes to clothing unless they want to be gender bending.  That is, in our current culture.  That hasn't been the case over history and over worldwide culture. 

My husband is a lot more fashionable than I am.  He buys a lot of clothes in a lot of (currently) masculine styles.  He looks sharp.  He wears very form fitting clothing for running long distances.  He has a cute butt.  That isn't an invitation for sex either.

If when hopefully I lose all the weight that I am desperately trying to lose, I will go on a big shopping spree.  I will buy cute clothing in eye-catching colors.  I will show off this newer (but still middle-aged) body.  It still won't be an invitation for sex.  It will be a celebration of a newer healthier body that will actually fit in the clothing that I like.  (Overweight people have a lot less choice when it comes to fashion.) 

[EmseB]

19 minutes ago, maize said:

Which goes nowhere towards addressing why our society tends to expect females to show more skin than males. Do you have an explanation?

Of course skin is not evil. If the males in the clothing ads above were showing as much skin as the females I would have no point at all.

13 minutes ago, maize said:

The question is, what is it within our culture that leads us to put female bodies on display in ways that male bodies are not put on display.

We could I suppose hypothesize that male bodies or male skin are viewed as too ugly or shameful to be made visible...

We could also argue the female form is objectively more beautiful than males. That's what I would argue but it's really neither here nor there. I don't think one slate of Target ads, or even tons of Target ads is indicative of anything. I could go over to BR and find a woman fully dressed in a nice business suit, I would guess. (ETA: Nope, it was bootcut/flared jeans, a sweater, and a leater motorcyle jacket ETAA: a big ad for crew neck sweaters for her).

I just truly don't understand what world people are living in where women are expected to show more skin? I live in a world where some females show more skin. I walk around every day about as covered as the males in those Target ads and have no problems doing so. I buy some of my clothes at Target. But advertising pretty sun dresses with shoulders showing is not pinging my objectification/sexy meter any more than seeing David Beckham in a nice suit doing an ad for cologne or something. I truly don't understand. Are women seeing those ads and thinking they have to walk around with bare shoulders? I see those ads and think, "That's pretty, but I need something that I won't get sunburned in," and click over to the t-shirts. Who are the women seeing those ads and feeling pressured to wear exactly what they see even though they don't want to show their shoulders? That is a real problem, but not one of advertising I don't think.

 

Edited February 17, 2019 by EmseB

[Frances]

20 minutes ago, EmseB said:

We could also argue the female form is objectively more beautiful than males. That's what I would argue but it's really neither here nor there. I don't think one slate of Target ads, or even tons of Target ads is indicative of anything. I could go over to BR and find a woman fully dressed in a nice business suit, I would guess. (ETA: Nope, it was bootcut/flared jeans, a sweater, and a leater motorcyle jacket ETAA: a big ad for crew neck sweaters for her).

I just truly don't understand what world people are living in where women are expected to show more skin? I live in a world where some females show more skin. I walk around every day about as covered as the males in those Target ads and have no problems doing so. I buy some of my clothes at Target. But advertising pretty sun dresses with shoulders showing is not pinging my objectification/sexy meter any more than seeing David Beckham in a nice suit doing an ad for cologne or something. I truly don't understand. Are women seeing those ads and thinking they have to walk around with bare shoulders? I see those ads and think, "That's pretty, but I need something that I won't get sunburned in," and click over to the t-shirts. Who are the women seeing those ads and feeling pressured to wear exactly what they see even though they don't want to show their shoulders? That is a real problem, but not one of advertising I don't think.

 

Exactly. And at the same time, what is considered socially acceptable for men to wear is more narrow. Young men are starting to change that, but it seems like women have more freedom in clothing and grooming choices. I don’t deny that in some cases women may feel societal pressure to look a certain way. But I think it is not the case for most women the majority of the time.

It’s not the topic of this thread, but we could also ask why are men so much more limited in their choices for clothing and grooming?

[PeachyDoodle]

Okay, I'm going to be one of those people some people love to hate and admit that I haven't read the entire thread.

But I have noticed a few references to men's clothing, particularly dress clothing, being comfortable, while women have to wear uncomfortable high heels, shapewear, etc. And I just want to ask: Am I the only one with a dh who hates men's dress clothes??? Because mine would rather have a root canal than have to wear a suit and tie, much less a tux. At a wedding we attended last year, I was far more comfortable in my dress, which had a full skirt and a top made of a stretchy, lacy material, than he was in his formal attire (except that I was hot, as it was August and outdoors, but so was he and I chose my dress knowing that I would be hot during the ceremony and could have picked something cooler, as most women there did -- he didn't have a choice. But I really loved that dress!). He despises dress shoes and has never found a pair, no matter how expensive, that he finds comfortable; I changed into flip-flops at the reception and no one was the wiser because of my long skirt. Regardless, he wears dress pants and button-down shirts and dress shoes to work every single day.

I wonder how much of this has to do with body type. My dh is an *ahem* bigger guy, and men's styles, simple as they often are, don't fit his body type well. His belt pinches and his shirts are usually too big in the arms and shoulders because the proportions don't suit him (unless he has them tailored, which he's usually too lazy to do). I have the same problem, especially when I have been heavier, as I am now. But as a woman, I have a lot more options. If jeans aren't comfortable, I can wear leggings and a tunic, or a cute dress. It's hard for me to find styles that I feel good in sometimes, but I have many more choices than he does.