Men vs Women gymnastics-why different clothes/moves?

[Frances]

Just now, maize said:

Well there's this whole marketing thing that tells us what we should buy...

But if people don’t buy it, then it won’t be profitable to sell it. 

[Frances]

1 minute ago, StellaM said:

 

I think 'criticising dominant beauty paradigms that promote sexualisation of girls' - that thing that doesn't happen anywhere in the US, apparently, and if it does, it's because the moms are clueless or lazy - was equated to Maoism earlier.  

No-one did say 'women should have fewer choices', of course.

 

I don’t think it’s because moms are clueless or lazy. Some people do actually like the stuff for their little girls. Have you seen the kind of kiddie beauty pageants we have in the US? I don’t know if you have them in Australia. But enough people are buying it to keep it coming. If it wasn’t selling, stores would stop carrying it.

[maize]

7 minutes ago, Frances said:

But if people don’t buy it, then it won’t be profitable to sell it. 

If marketing weren't effective, you mean? In other words, if people really did make choices independently of social and cultural influences?

Yes, in that case an awful lot of stuff would probably not be profitable.

[Corraleno]

52 minutes ago, maize said:

If marketing weren't effective, you mean? In other words, if people really did make choices independently of social and cultural influences?

Yes, in that case an awful lot of stuff would probably not be profitable.

You think the only reason women wear leggings or off-the-shoulder sundresses or skinny jeans or fitted tee shirts is because marketing executives tell them they have to wear those things? Are there no women in advertising? Market researchers just ask men what they think women should wear and then impose it on women who are too dumb to know they're being manipulated? If not for advertising women would never dye their hair or wear makeup or wear revealing clothes? 

What do you think the natural "default" would be if women could make their choices entirely free of advertising? 

[Corraleno]

"We don't think women should have fewer choices! We just think they should stop wearing tight-fitting clothes. And dyeing their hair. And wearing makeup. And shaving their legs. But voluntarily! If everyone would just listen and agree with us, they would voluntarily give up all those choices that we don't like! Then we could wear baggy clothes and no makeup and stop shaving our legs without feeling weird about it."

Or, you know, you could just wear baggy clothes and no makeup and stop shaving your legs and let other women do what they want without judging them.

Edited February 18, 2019 by Corraleno

[Wheres Toto]

16 hours ago, StellaM said:

 

Well, that's good that you've never had any trouble.

It's wonderful that the US doesn't sexualise its girl children as a routine thing.

 

I've never had any trouble.  I think certain activities regularly sexualize children, in particular competitive dance and pageants can be bad.   Although oldest dd was a competitive dancer from 4 years old through college undergrad and it wasn't that hard to find costumes that weren't scandalous to regularly people.

As mentioned earlier, I think part of it is what is considered sexualization.  Is any two piece bathing suit on a young girl sexual?  Pocket decorations?  Writing on pants?  Tightness?  How tight is too tight?  V-necks?  Scoop necks?  Sleeveless?  Spaghetti straps?  Shorts above the knee?  

I think people are often working with different definitions. 

[Wheres Toto]

10 hours ago, StellaM said:

 

I think moonflower talked about this before.

If we could make our decisions entirely free of advertising, I think some women would continue to enjoy, and put time into self- decoration.

And some women would feel freer to not do it. 

It seems you think of advertising as a benign information service. Which is...interesting.

Even though you think women might behave in the same way without advertising, you don't think any of them are currently behaving that way despite advertising?

I have a marketing degree, worked in marketing (mostly healthcare), and have taught marketing awareness classes.  I don't think marketing has as much of an influence today as it did 30 or 40 years ago.  I think people are much more cynical these days.

[hshibley]

1 minute ago, Where's Toto? said:

Even though you think women might behave in the same way without advertising, you don't think any of them are currently behaving that way despite advertising?

I have a marketing degree, worked in marketing (mostly healthcare), and have taught marketing awareness classes.  I don't think marketing has as much of an influence today as it did 30 or 40 years ago.  I think people are much more cynical these days.

I agree about the decline in the influence of marketing. I remember as a teen everyone watching the same tv shows (General Hospital, the count down show with the solid gold dancers, the start of MTV),reading Seventeen magazine (I used to rush out in August to get the back to school issue) and listened to the same radio stations. My teens now all watch different YouTubers and stream shows off of Netflix. I don’t think there is a single dominant culture in the same way there was during the 70’s and 80’s. 

[PeachyDoodle]

55 minutes ago, hshibley said:

I agree about the decline in the influence of marketing. I remember as a teen everyone watching the same tv shows (General Hospital, the count down show with the solid gold dancers, the start of MTV),reading Seventeen magazine (I used to rush out in August to get the back to school issue) and listened to the same radio stations. My teens now all watch different YouTubers and stream shows off of Netflix. I don’t think there is a single dominant culture in the same way there was during the 70’s and 80’s. 

Well, and many women were into beauty and fashion well before the advent of modern marketing. So I don't think it's a monolithic cause of anything (not that anyone here said that), more a reflection of what already was.

[Jean in Newcastle]

1 hour ago, Where's Toto? said:

I've never had any trouble.  I think certain activities regularly sexualize children, in particular competitive dance and pageants can be bad.   Although oldest dd was a competitive dancer from 4 years old through college undergrad and it wasn't that hard to find costumes that weren't scandalous to regularly people.

As mentioned earlier, I think part of it is what is considered sexualization.  Is any two piece bathing suit on a young girl sexual?  Pocket decorations?  Writing on pants?  Tightness?  How tight is too tight?  V-necks?  Scoop necks?  Sleeveless?  Spaghetti straps?  Shorts above the knee?  

I think people are often working with different definitions. 

Exactly. I don’t see the huge boogeyman of sexualizing girls and marketing brainwashing that others seem to see. I mean - I do see it happening in some circles. I don’t spend time keeping up  with the Kardashians but an article about how their little girl received something from Tiffany’s from her boyfriend for Valentine’s flashed across my newsfeed last week and my reaction was “eek”. But I don’t see that kind of thing in the neighborhood or at the Y. 

And I realize that some people might be more susceptible to it- like some kids are more  “boy crazy” or “girl crazy “.  But I don’t think that it is a culture wide pandemic. 

In my lifetime I have seen things trend to a better place. Women and men have more culturally acceptable choices. And there are marketplaces for any interest out there it seems. I mean I saw a guy wearing full Steampunk in the Big City the other day. It was actually pretty cool. Was he outside of the cultural mainstream?  Sure. But if he wanted to buck the trends he could. 

I also think that the average person understands advertising a lot more. The critical analysis of advertising is part of school curriculum even. And as others pointed out, advertising is more individual now. I can guarantee that if I google Steampunk clothing, I am going to see a lot of ads for it popping up. If I google “modest swimsuits “ I am going to get that. 

I also don’t agree that showing a bit of shoulder or back or even cleavage is a horrible thing. Put me down as a scandalous conservative pastor’s wife, I guess. If someone doesn’t want to show that much skin then don’t. If you don’t like your children’s sports uniform then lobby to change it. Or don’t watch those scandalous gymnastics routines where they do a little shimmy. In the meantime, I am going to enjoy my Zumba class. 

[scholastica]

3 hours ago, hshibley said:

I agree about the decline in the influence of marketing. I remember as a teen everyone watching the same tv shows (General Hospital, the count down show with the solid gold dancers, the start of MTV),reading Seventeen magazine (I used to rush out in August to get the back to school issue) and listened to the same radio stations. My teens now all watch different YouTubers and stream shows off of Netflix. I don’t think there is a single dominant culture in the same way there was during the 70’s and 80’s. 

There wasn't a dominant culture in the 70's and 80's. See the movie The Breakfast Club. People chose their groups or had them chosen for them, and for the most part, stayed in them. I think this is worse now, due to social media. We are locking people into "if you enjoy these things, you're an x, if you enjoy those things, you're a y", there's no room for "I enjoy all the things", I have to pick. There may be fewer social repercussions for choosing a group with unusual tastes, but those groupings are very strong.

[Wheres Toto]

14 minutes ago, scholastica said:

There wasn't a dominant culture in the 70's and 80's. See the movie The Breakfast Club. People chose their groups or had them chosen for them, and for the most part, stayed in them. I think this is worse now, due to social media. We are locking people into "if you enjoy these things, you're an x, if you enjoy those things, you're a y", there's no room for "I enjoy all the things", I have to pick. There may be fewer social repercussions for choosing a group with unusual tastes, but those groupings are very strong.

I think it was worse in the 80s.  I graduated in 1987 and I remember the groups being more rigid, as well as what was acceptable fashion-wise.  You didn't just have to wear jeans, they had to be x, y or z brand or they were unacceptable.   I don't see those restrictions any more.

Oldest dd was a dancer, did her school musical, was a cheerleader, and was an honors student.  She was accepted by all those groups plus had friends in others.   Youngest dd is a "tom boy" who does TKD, makes her own cos-play outfits, and draws Undertale characters.  

I have very eclectic interests that mean I kind of move between different groups - fandoms, "crunchy", homeschooling, etc.     

I've never seen any kind of limitations on what we are allowed to enjoy.  When in group A, you probably talk the most about A, and when in group B, you probably talk the most about B, but I've seen no sign that group A is telling you to stay away from group B.

[vonfirmath]

20 hours ago, moonflower said:

girls jeans at Wal_mart (we don't have a target) are on average and in aggregate tighter and lower cut than boy's jeans at Wal-Mart, on average and in aggregate.

 

 

I'm not sure about jeans because my daughter doesn't like wearing jeans (just like her mom there)

But this is certainly true for shorts. The last couple of years we've gone to the boys section to buy plain, roomy, almost knee length shorts for my daughter (now 7 years old). But my sister just warned me I need to stop doing this because its going to affect her self image. So I guess I will need to check out Kohl's or somewhere for decent shorts purchaseable in the girls section.

 

[hshibley]

2 minutes ago, Where's Toto? said:

I think it was worse in the 80s.  I graduated in 1987 and I remember the groups being more rigid, as well as what was acceptable fashion-wise.  You didn't just have to wear jeans, they had to be x, y or z brand or they were unacceptable.   I don't see those restrictions any more.

 

That’s what I was driving at. You didn’t just wear jeans you wore Calvin Klein jeans. You didn’t just wear makeup it was Maybeline blue eye shadow with the raccoon eye liner 😂

Now with my teens I see a lot more diversity. Yeah they may all wear jeans but no ones calling you out if your jeans are from target, jc penny or second hand. I think in that regard things have improved. 

[Jean in Newcastle]

4 minutes ago, vonfirmath said:

 

I'm not sure about jeans because my daughter doesn't like wearing jeans (just like her mom there)

But this is certainly true for shorts. The last couple of years we've gone to the boys section to buy plain, roomy, almost knee length shorts for my daughter (now 7 years old). But my sister just warned me I need to stop doing this because its going to affect her self image. So I guess I will need to check out Kohl's or somewhere for decent shorts purchaseable in the girls section.

 

I think that your sister is silly. (Not personally- I have never met her!). But my 17 year old daughter regularly buys “boys “ clothes and it hasn’t affected her self esteem. 

[scholastica]

1 hour ago, Where's Toto? said:

I think it was worse in the 80s.  I graduated in 1987 and I remember the groups being more rigid, as well as what was acceptable fashion-wise.  You didn't just have to wear jeans, they had to be x, y or z brand or they were unacceptable.   I don't see those restrictions any more.

Oldest dd was a dancer, did her school musical, was a cheerleader, and was an honors student.  She was accepted by all those groups plus had friends in others.   Youngest dd is a "tom boy" who does TKD, makes her own cos-play outfits, and draws Undertale characters.  

I have very eclectic interests that mean I kind of move between different groups - fandoms, "crunchy", homeschooling, etc.     

I've never seen any kind of limitations on what we are allowed to enjoy.  When in group A, you probably talk the most about A, and when in group B, you probably talk the most about B, but I've seen no sign that group A is telling you to stay away from group B.

 

1 hour ago, hshibley said:

That’s what I was driving at. You didn’t just wear jeans you wore Calvin Klein jeans. You didn’t just wear makeup it was Maybeline blue eye shadow with the raccoon eye liner 😂

Now with my teens I see a lot more diversity. Yeah they may all wear jeans but no ones calling you out if your jeans are from target, jc penny or second hand. I think in that regard things have improved. 

Are your kids homeschooled? Because that gives them a lot more latitude. One of many reasons we homeschool through high school. 

Those pressures we faced as teens to fit in as teens in school are there and magnified by social media today. 

As an adult, I make my choices and move between groups, teens have a harder time with that. 

[hshibley]

32 minutes ago, scholastica said:

 

Are your kids homeschooled? Because that gives them a lot more latitude. One of many reasons we homeschool through high school. 

Those pressures we faced as teens to fit in as teens in school are there and magnified by social media today. 

As an adult, I make my choices and move between groups, teens have a harder time with that. 

I homeschool through 8th grade then my kids go to high school. I’ve had 4 in high school so far. There’s  a lot less pressure today to fit in to a rigid group classification then there was during the 80’s. Between athletes, music nerds(band theater), geeks(cosplay anime), student gov, honor students etc. there’s a lot more over lap than there was. Back in the 80’s you were in one of those groups and that was it. Now my kids have been part of multiple groups -athlete geek honor student or music nerd cosplayer. 

Social media can be a problem but so far my kids have always found a group that they fit in with. 

[Corraleno]

6 hours ago, hshibley said:

I agree about the decline in the influence of marketing. I remember as a teen everyone watching the same tv shows (General Hospital, the count down show with the solid gold dancers, the start of MTV),reading Seventeen magazine (I used to rush out in August to get the back to school issue) and listened to the same radio stations. My teens now all watch different YouTubers and stream shows off of Netflix. I don’t think there is a single dominant culture in the same way there was during the 70’s and 80’s. 

I think there was definitely a dominant fashion culture then, too, and it was much harder to buck the trends if you didn't like whatever the current style was. I grew up in the 60s & 70s, and generally whatever "look" the magazines were selling was what you could get in stores, and that was pretty much it. When everyone was wearing miniskirts and frosted pink lipstick and long straight hair and round- or square-toed flats or boots, anyone who continued to wear 50s-style red lipstick, winged eyeliner, long skirts, and pointy-toed stilettos was seen as laughably outdated. I can vividly remember looking at 50s photos, and at older people who still dressed that way a decade later, and thinking those styles were so ridiculous there was no way they would ever come back in style, lol.

Now women can wear red, pink, orange, or blue lipstick if they want, with a little mascara or heavy winged eyeliner or six shades of metallic shadow, or no makeup at all, and nobody cares. You can wear your hair in a crew cut or down to your waist, in a natural color or any color of the rainbow. You can buy short shorts, bike shorts, Bermuda shorts, and capris; tiny tanks tops, loose tunics, button-downs, and oversized hoodies; skinny, bootcut, relaxed fit, or high-waisted, wide-legged jeans; mini skirts, pencil skirts, or flowing maxi skirts; 3" stilettos with pointy toes, round-toed flats, or chunky Keens and Uggs and Birkenstocks; slinky pink-sequined minidresses or black high-necked, long-sleeved evening gowns; string bikinis, boy shorts & tankini tops, board shorts & rash guards, and even swim leggings (Lands End sells swim capris with a built-in skirt). Wear as much or as little as you like, in whatever colors and fabrics you like, with as much or as little make-up as you like. I think women have more choices than ever before, and the power and influence of the media and fashion industry has waned considerably. The gap between what you see on the runway at Paris Fashion Week and what actual women wear in everyday life has never been wider. So yay for that! 

 

[Wheres Toto]

2 hours ago, scholastica said:

 

Are your kids homeschooled? Because that gives them a lot more latitude. One of many reasons we homeschool through high school. 

Those pressures we faced as teens to fit in as teens in school are there and magnified by social media today. 

As an adult, I make my choices and move between groups, teens have a harder time with that. 

My oldest was in public school and didn't run into any issues hanging with dance friends, academic friends, cheerleaders, musical theater "geeks".   My younger two are homeschooled.