I need some Christmas magic UPDATE: first post!!!

[busymama7]

I met her tonight!!!! She is so so so sweet! I can't wait to bring her home. 

I appreciate the warnings about her behavior backsliding.  I will be on the lookout for that. For the record, by neglected I just mean she was behind on grooming and she may not have had a lot of cuddly attention.  It wasn't more than that that we can tell.  She was very friendly to me tonight. 

[ktgrok]

Um...why don't we have photos yet!?!?!!?

[busymama7]

1 hour ago, Ktgrok said:

Um...why don't we have photos yet!?!?!!?

I kept deleting all the photos as I was afraid my kids would see one on my phone. But heres one from today. She is the white one that needs grooming 😉. The other is my neighbors shih tzu. Shhhhhhhh. I'm deleting this from my phone as soon as it posts. 

[unsinkable]

Oh, the little floofer!

Love 💘

[ktgrok]

ah, your dd is going to go nuts!!

[Kassia]

Oh, how wonderful!  I am so excited for you and your family! 

[busymama7]

So took her to the vet to be grommed and spayed this am. (and shots and a chip). She did so good in the car. She was scared and shaking but I sat in the parking lot and cuddled her until they opened. It was so hard to walk away without her. She is just such a sweetheart.  This is going to be the longest week of my life.  

[happi duck]

Thanks for keeping us updated!

[busymama7]

Well today was as amazing and magical as I would have hoped.  In fact, the kids named our little one "Magic". She has done amazingly well considering arriving on Christmas morning to a household of 11! No potty issues at all. She followed me around all day and was just so darn cute.  However, she has growled a few times and nipped at my 4 year old. Which was weird as she had no issues with her all day. She carted her around and played with her and Magic was fine. But she was laying next to me and 4yo came up and tried to pick her up. We scolded her and have continued having 4yo slowly approach her and pet her lots and have praised Magic excessively for being patient with her.  I would appreciate any tips on how else to train her.  I would love any books also to give me more info.   I read some conflicting things today about not training them to not growl but everyone around me is telling me to consistently scold her for it and not allow it. 

Also, we opted to put her bed in the laundry room and have her sleep there. I am a bit conflicted about that as 13yo would love her to sleep with her. I just felt like that was too much for her today and she needed peace and quiet. My son's fiance also told me that it is considered a bad idea for them to be allowed to sleep with their humans. 

 

Thanks again for your help. We love her and are excited to have her join our family. 

[hornblower]

It's too late for me to respond fully but I must say this: NEVER PUNISH GROWLING. 

A dog who is growling is communicating discomfort. If you punish growling, you can suppress this communication but not the underlying discomfort and you end up with a dog who bites with very little warning. 

[lmrich]

What fun!

I would not punish growling as that is such a good warning. I am sure your 4 year old even knew to back away when Magic growled.

Don't be surprised if today there is more growling and aggressive behavior; yesterday was an exhausting day for the new dog. Be sure to give Magic lots of time "off" - could mean just spending time with one or two kids or time in her bed.

[PeterPan]

My miniature schnauzer growls at ds and it's a WARNING. My ds wears out the dog, and that's the dog's only way to tell him. You'll want to make sure you give the dog a place she can retreat to, like a crate, and train your little dc that they are never to pull her out of there but to let her rest if she goes in there.

I personally think that you should let the dog be as attached as she wants to be. Ds yearns for our dog to sleep with him, and reality is the dog doesn't want to. Little dogs need breaks and have their personalities. If the dog picks one person (you) she might end up wanting to sleep outside your door and not have any interest in being with the kids at night. I would let that unfold naturally. I get there are concerns about alpha and pack and all that, but it's also ok to see how things unfold a bit. My dd was heartbroken to realize our miniature schnauzer didn't want to cuddle and be with her. She's in college now, so all she gets for cuddling are stuffed animals, lol. But that's why I'm looking for an additional bigger dog, because I need something that WILL want to cuddle and that CAN put up with the harrassment of kids. 

[Pawz4me]

Echoing the others about NOT punishing growling. Never ever never do that. I'm going to copy below a post I made a couple of days ago on another board. It's maybe a bit harsh, but only because this is a matter that I have such strong feelings about.

Also, it's mostly false that letting a dog sleep on a bed is a bad thing. Yes, IF you have a dog who is showing possession aggression over the human or the bed, then no longer allowing that dog bed privileges is probably necessary. But absent that--no. Humans have all sorts of wrongheaded ideas about what dogs believe or how they interpret things. When you have questions keep coming here and ask us. There are plenty of us here who really do know dogs. We may differ sometimes, but between us we'll give you a range of solid advice.

Now, the quote about growling I mentioned above --

Quote

IME and IMO punishing or dissuading a dog from growling is a very, very bad thing. Hugely bad. Awful. I've seen it backfire so many times, and of course more often than not the dog pays a huge price for it.

Growling is one of a very limited number of ways a dog has of communicating that us stupid humans can understand (if we are diligent and smart enough to know we need to learn--most people are neither of those things). Growling can "say" all sorts of things, just like a tail wag can. A high, short tail wag is "saying" something totally different than a low, wide wag. And different growls "say" different things. It's fairly easy to learn dog language.

You know you always hear of dog bites and the human says "there was no warning at all?" That's generally never true, but when it is IME it's almost always a dog who has been punished for communicating. Poor dogs. Too many humans take away all their means of communication and then the dog dies because it's been taught to stay silent. :(

Never punish the growl. Instead "listen" to what it's saying and address that.

IME and IMO, of course.

 

Edited December 26, 2018 by Pawz4me

[ktgrok]

6 hours ago, busymama7 said:

Well today was as amazing and magical as I would have hoped.  In fact, the kids named our little one "Magic". She has done amazingly well considering arriving on Christmas morning to a household of 11! No potty issues at all. She followed me around all day and was just so darn cute.  However, she has growled a few times and nipped at my 4 year old. Which was weird as she had no issues with her all day. She carted her around and played with her and Magic was fine. But she was laying next to me and 4yo came up and tried to pick her up. We scolded her and have continued having 4yo slowly approach her and pet her lots and have praised Magic excessively for being patient with her.  I would appreciate any tips on how else to train her.  I would love any books also to give me more info.   I read some conflicting things today about not training them to not growl but everyone around me is telling me to consistently scold her for it and not allow it. 

Also, we opted to put her bed in the laundry room and have her sleep there. I am a bit conflicted about that as 13yo would love her to sleep with her. I just felt like that was too much for her today and she needed peace and quiet. My son's fiance also told me that it is considered a bad idea for them to be allowed to sleep with their humans. 

 

Thanks again for your help. We love her and are excited to have her join our family. 

The way to prevent this is to NOT allow the 4 year old to to cart poor Magic around all day. Seriously. Magic put up with it, and put up with it, and put up with it, and then was DONE. You know how you deal with a whiny kid all darned day and then they do it AGAIN and you are tired and you just snap at them? Same thing. 

Magic doesn't even KNOW your 4 year old yet, not really. Would you want some stranger picking you up and dragging you around? No. 

Give the poor pooch more space. More alone time. Less touching and less chaos. This is a dog that was probably a big neglected, and it is tempting to want to "fix" that, but she's not used to that much touchy feely  or that much noise or that much stimulation and it was too much. 

Dogs have a "bite threshold" and you went way over it. Each individual thing wasn't too much, but added up together it was. Plus she was tired, which also adds to it. 

Personally, I am no longer in the "never scold a growling dog" camp, after dealing with a few dogs with various aggression issues. BUT I'm an experienced dog person, and have a better read on what is going on with a dog, timing, etc. But we are talking a dog I have a relationship with, know isn't aggressive or anxious in general, and followed up with lots of reward based training to fix the issue.Mostly I'm okay with the idea of clear communication, and telling a dog no, I don't like when you growl/snap/get nasty. But not punishing in the sense of trying to scare the dog into not doing it (which can lead to problems as others stated) but just in a "hey, that's not okay" communication way. Giving the dog information.  But in the situation you describe, I'd punish myself for letting people overwhelm the dog. 

That said, if it continues to happen when the dog is on the couch, I wouldn't let the dog on the couch for a while. More bites happen when someone tried to move/remove a dog from the couch bed than most other places. It's not about dominance (and labeling it doesn't matter) but it is a common problem. Easier to have strict structure in the beginning with a dog and then relax the rules later when the dog is fully integrated into the house than to be loosey-goosey and then have to firm up. 

And again, I'm going to HIGHLY stress that this dog needs LESS interaction. WAY less. This is a dog that came from neglect, and you are overwhelming it. Do you have a small crate for her? I'd do lots of crate time, and NO carrying the dog around by anyone right now. Even small dogs have legs, and have dignity, let her walk 🙂 Seriously, she's an adult canine, not a baby. 

As for books, The Culture Clash or Dogs are from Neptune are good, or anything by Patricia McConnel. 

Edited December 26, 2018 by Ktgrok

[Innisfree]

What everyone else said.

Magic sounds like a sweetheart. Give her some space, some calm time and a sense of security.

She's supposed to belong to the 13yo, is that right? I'd have that child look after her and you tell everyone else they may not approach the dog and touch her.* They may hold out their hands and call, and see if Magic wants to go to them. They may pet gently if she does. They may offer toys, or throw balls. But no chasing her, picking her up, etc. Give Magic a bit of control. Let her feel safe. She's in an overwhelming, very new situation with lots of new people. Later (weeks later), as you see her settling in, you can decide if those rules should be relaxed.

Personally, I'd let her sleep with the 13yo, but that's me. You might see if Magic prefers being crated in that room or on the bed or crated in another room.

*ETA: Actually, I probably wouldn't be picking her up at all unless really necessary, or letting any kid do so at this point. But I would give her owner responsibility for feeding, frequent trips out and generally watching over her.

Edited December 26, 2018 by Innisfree

[ktgrok]

And seriously, new dog is laying there, exhausted, resting, and a person she doesn't know comes over and tries to just grab her up off her comfy spot. I'd snarl too, lol. 

[TheReader]

What they said, absolutely. But I will add, at this point, look for and respect "tips on introducing a new pet" -- there are tons of great articles about how to do this when there's already a pet in the home, and although you do not have a pet already, some of/lots of those ideas will be good guidance to you on how to slowly let Magic integrate into the houseful of humans.....which is vastly different from the house with one human and one pet where she was with your neighbor. The slow introduction (I love what someone said upthread about putting the 13 yr old in charge, and her main human at this point, and everyone else needs to ask Magic for permission at this point.....) will payoff a million times over in the long run. 

As far as introducing the littles in particular, *once Magic is adjusted to the new home, a few weeks from now*, it is good to have the youngers offer a treat, teach Magic to softly take a treat from their hands, things like that. It sounds like once everyone is adjusted there likely won't be issues, but definitely focus on teaching good dog-manners to the 4 yr old and others; that will go the farthest in everyone getting along. 

She sounds like she will be a delight!

[busymama7]

Thanks everyone. Yes I know she was overwhelmed and we did leave her be after that. I for sure understood WHY she nipped but I do also need to both address it and make sure my 4yo isn't afraid of her. So I do want to work with it. Not allowing 4yo to carry her around is easy to start with. 

She is great this am so far. 

We opted to give her to the whole family and gave other things to the 13yo. She was the one that wanted a dog the most but just due to dynamics between siblings we chose to have her belong to everyone. She is quite obviously bonded most to me because I spent a fair amount of time with her prior to Christmas morning.  

We do not have a crate but I am going to go get one today.  I feel it is best for her to have that retreat. I intended to use her bed that she was using this week at the neighbors, but she only wanted in the bed if i was next to it. Otherwise she just wanted next to me 😊. I intended to teach the kids not to bug her when she retreated to the bed but since she didn't opt to do that and just for other logistical reasons, I think a crate is a better plan.  

[busymama7]

Is this the appropriate time to work on commands like sit?  She does not know these yet although she will come when called. I think she comes just because she loves the attention so much and not because she knows she is supposed to though. 

I just wasn't sure if I was supposed to give her time to adjust to the house or work on obedience right away. Thanks. 

[Pawz4me]

1 hour ago, busymama7 said:

Is this the appropriate time to work on commands like sit?  She does not know these yet although she will come when called. I think she comes just because she loves the attention so much and not because she knows she is supposed to though. 

I just wasn't sure if I was supposed to give her time to adjust to the house or work on obedience right away. Thanks. 

To begin with it's best to work in a quiet, distraction free environment. Frequent short, upbeat sessions. As the dog learns the commands you slowly begin to train in different places and increase the distraction level. This is often called "proofing" a behavior. The theory is that dogs don't generalize well. So a dog may be 100 percent solid on "sit" (or any other command) in your quiet living room or back yard. But the dog also has to be taught that "sit" means the same thing in a room full of kids, on a busy sidewalk or park or the vet's office as it does in a quiet room or back yard.

Edited December 26, 2018 by Pawz4me

[ktgrok]

1 hour ago, busymama7 said:

Is this the appropriate time to work on commands like sit?  She does not know these yet although she will come when called. I think she comes just because she loves the attention so much and not because she knows she is supposed to though. 

I just wasn't sure if I was supposed to give her time to adjust to the house or work on obedience right away. Thanks. 

yes, but have just one person work with her right now, to avoid confusing her even more. But obedience training is great for instilling confidence and helping an anxious dog relax. Mainly because it brings a level of predictability - you say that, I do this, then this happens. Every time. Dogs crave structure and predictability. 

[PeterPan]

4 hours ago, busymama7 said:

She is quite obviously bonded most to me because I spent a fair amount of time with her prior to Christmas morning. 

Or she's bonded to you because you're quiet, calm, predictable, and most like her previous owner.

Small dogs were bred for purposes, like to be lap dogs or to go through tunnels to retrieve things. So if you've got a dog that was bred to sit on a woman's lap and be calm and still, it's not gonna be into the bustle of 9+ people. 

What has happened here is that my dog *tries* to give ds a chance. I suggest you let the dog get really comfortable being bonded to you, maybe play up your dh (since he's also pretty calm and predictable) and maybe the oldest, calmest dc or two, and then see what the dog thinks about giving the others a chance. My dog likes my dh, but he takes the time to be calm and I PLAYED IT UP. Every time he comes home I go "Daddy Daddy Daddy!!" to the dog and encourage him to go find him, tell him let's go see Daddy, etc. Otherwise, my dog really is a one woman kinda dog. 

[Pawz4me]

2 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

Or she's bonded to you because you're quiet, calm, predictable, and most like her previous owner.

Small dogs were bred for purposes, like to be lap dogs or to go through tunnels to retrieve things. So if you've got a dog that was bred to sit on a woman's lap and be calm and still, it's not gonna be into the bustle of 9+ people. 

What has happened here is that my dog *tries* to give ds a chance. I suggest you let the dog get really comfortable being bonded to you, maybe play up your dh (since he's also pretty calm and predictable) and maybe the oldest, calmest dc or two, and then see what the dog thinks about giving the others a chance. My dog likes my dh, but he takes the time to be calm and I PLAYED IT UP. Every time he comes home I go "Daddy Daddy Daddy!!" to the dog and encourage him to go find him, tell him let's go see Daddy, etc. Otherwise, my dog really is a one woman kinda dog. 

Very good points.

IME lap dogs take their "job" every bit as seriously as other working dogs take theirs. Our Shih Tzu vastly prefers my lap, but if it's not available he'll "work" with someone else's. At least until mine becomes available. 

[ktgrok]

11 minutes ago, Pawz4me said:

Very good points.

IME lap dogs take their "job" every bit as seriously as other working dogs take theirs. Our Shih Tzu vastly prefers my lap, but if it's not available he'll "work" with someone else's. At least until mine becomes available. 

Yup! 

The other kids can take turns sitting quietly on the couch near the dog, and see if she wants to cuddle with them, but not picking her up. That's a serious invasion of space to anyone. (note the thread about family drama where the BIL picked up someone's kid and how we all thought it was an invasion of space)

[busymama7]

She is doing really well so far today. Yes she does prefer my lap to others but she is happy to sit with others too. Right now she is on the couch with my 13yo and I am in the same room. 13yo is training her to sit and she's doing super well.  We are still working on knowing her name.

 Ok so my dh came home and she followed him into the kitchen. My 13yo called her and she trotted right past me to her and snuggled. Yay!  The younger kids are playing with some neighbors so this is a good time to be working with her. 

She has been being really good with the 4yo too. Letting her pet and walk her and even willingly going up to her for a pet. I think she was just so worn out yesterday and 4yo didn't know not to just walk up and try to pick her up.