When You Catch Your Kids Cheating

[Gil]

So is there some established Hive Protocol for when you've dropped the parenting-ball and catch your kids cheating?

Because I noticed today that for the last 11 days my sons have (very likely) cheated to complete a specific math assignment that they have: their independent daily math review.

It's material they're already really familiar with and that I'm certain that they know how to do however they aren't speedy/perfectly fluent in the material so I have them sit for a set time period each day, and systematically working through a textbook so that they work more problems for fluency/mastery. It's not that they cant do the work, it's that they don't want to/it takes time. 

I'm almost certain that they are literally taking turns with who is actually doing the work, and the other is just copying the answers. (i.e. Elder Bro. does the work Mon, Wed, Fri, and Younger Bro. copies his work, but on Sun, Tues, Thu and Sat the Younger Bro. does the work and the Elder bro copies it.) Obviously, I'm going to be monitoring them and checking up on them more often going forward, but what do I do about this now? How am I going to avoid this scenario going into the future?

What is the Hive Wisdom?

Edited October 9, 2018 by Gil
brevity

[Lang Syne Boardie]

1. Sadly, it's normal. That's just FYI, not something to tell the kids. Best if they think it's a BIG DEAL.

2. Don't give up your weekend! If they are upper elementary to middle school age, this is the era during which you try to give them consequences *without* making your own life harder or more unpleasant. Do that while you can, now, because when they're 16 to 18 you'll be back to suffering when they do. 

3. The makeup days go into fall break, Christmas break, and summer. Not only should they have to re-do these lessons, but they might also do a dozen similar lessons from a totally different program, to reinforce the concepts (just in case they managed to memorize any answers). 

4. The only way to keep this from ever happening again is to lock up the answer keys. That doesn't mean they'll keep trying to get to them forever - the goal is to make this a non-issue in the house again with very matter-of-fact consequences (the do-overs on THEIR time) and simple prevention (locking cabinet).

 

Edited October 4, 2018 by Tibbie Dunbar

[Another Lynn]

.... also going forward.... if they're copying from each other, give one kid the evens and the other the odds, or two different text books, or somehow give them different assignments.

Another reason Tibbie's idea of going into breaks to make up the work is a good one is if you try to require all of it to be made up this weekend, you run the risk (or I think *I* would run the risk) of caving after a few hours and saying we've all suffered enough.  In other words, make sure you come up with a consequence you know you can stick to - just saying that because I have struggled with following through when I made something more difficult than I had the will to enforce.  

Edited October 4, 2018 by Another Lynn

[SKL]

Make them sit in separate rooms to finish their homework, then give it to you.  They never see each other's work unless you want them to.

Don't know if I'd make them do it all over.  I might just make them do a fraction of it over.  Or give them a pop quiz on the material and make them do exercises on any type of item they missed on the pop quiz.  Also make them wash your car and clean the basement.  ?

Also I would consider whether it makes sense to cut down the amount of review work you give them, but not in a way that makes it appear to be a reward for bad behavior.

[Ausmumof3]

Give them separate work and hide the answer keys.  Also it’s a signal that they don’t see the point of the work so make sure they understand why you’re making them do stuff they already know how.  A lecture on how speed and fluency practice now will help them with more complicated stuff later.  Check more frequently.  And yeah have them redo it or so extra for a bit but in a way that works for you.

[kiwik]

You dropped the ball and they failed to live up to your trust.  As a result you must pay more attention and they must have less independence.  I don't see the need to make a drama of it.  Just say "I notice that from X date you have been struggling with working unsupervised so we are going to start again from there".  Then smile and don't mention it again.  I am pretty sure they will get the message.

[RenaInTexas]

Something I do when my sons aren't giving their best effort is I take that work and place it in a detention folder. Detention work can only be done outside of normal school hours (so during their free time) and must be completed by Saturday night. Needless to say, they haven't had much detention work (after they figured out that I was for real).

Last year, I told them all year long that we will finish every book even if school has to continue through the summer. That didn't have much effect until mid-June when we were still meeting for math class and they could have been at camp. When they are slowing around and off task, I remind them that we will finish every book and it whips them right into shape. The downside of this method was that it didn't change their behavior until mid-June, but that effect has carried into this year. However, I wanted something more immediate so I came up with the detention folder. It has worked well. The two may be working together. I think the June thing makes them stay on task more and the detention folder makes them turn in quality work. Though the detention folder is for both work that is taking longer than it reasonably should and work that is of low quality.

If they are old enough leave them home on Saturday to redo the work. But do make a big deal out of it because it is a big deal. I try to react at home the way society would react (within reason). In society, they would be expelled or automatically fail a class that they were caught cheating in. So they need to feel and be made aware that the consequences of such actions are a big deal.

[Jean in Newcastle]

Going against the flow here (except for Kiwik).  Both my kids cheated at one time.  I had dropped the ball and was not adequately supervising.  I didn't punish for what I saw as my fault.  Both kids have grown up to have strong moral values and academic integrity.  They just didn't have the capacity for independent work as soon as I thought they did.  (This would be different if I felt like my kids were sneaky or defiant or something other than just not ready.) 

[Xahm]

Just remembering from when I was a kid, I wouldn't be too harsh. They, in their eyes, just found a more clever way to get the required work done. Normally finding a more clever way to get something done is good, so even if they also know cheating is wrong, it's very easy to self-justify. I'd tell them matter-of-factly that this isn't acceptable and then have them do two lessons a day until they've made up what was missed. A second breech would be more serious, but they'd be hearing all sorts of stories about people who were expelled, lost scholarships, were fired, lost their family's trust, etc after the first and hope that those stories+ not benefiting from cheating would help the lesson be learned.

[HomeAgain]

1 hour ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

Going against the flow here (except for Kiwik).  Both my kids cheated at one time.  I had dropped the ball and was not adequately supervising.  I didn't punish for what I saw as my fault.  Both kids have grown up to have strong moral values and academic integrity.  They just didn't have the capacity for independent work as soon as I thought they did.  (This would be different if I felt like my kids were sneaky or defiant or something other than just not ready.) 

This.  We had it happen once here.  I restructured the day so that independent work was something that could not be cheated on and I was a lot more diligent in what I was supervising.  He just wasn't ready at the time to be fully independent.  By making it based on what was covered at our morning meeting, and working in the same room as him on something different, it gave him the independence with the scaffolding he needed.  Eventually, that indirect supervision was dropped for truly independent (i.e. responsible to an outside class) with a daily check in with me.
It wasn't perfect, but it did get him where he needed to be.

[ktgrok]

I like the idea of having them do two lessons a day to make it up...so one of those 11 lessons each day on top of their normal work. I think that is reasonable. And it lets you say, each day, with a dramatic sigh. "Well, we'd be all done with school now, but you still have that make up work. Here you go." I'd save it for last each day to really drive it home ?

[SanDiegoMom]

honestly, I had to laugh as I could totally see my oldest daughter doing this and being indignant that I thought it was wrong. She was always quite the creative problem solver and needed a LOT of buy-in to convince her work was worthwhile.  Now if its work that is the hill to die on, I would take some of the suggestions above (assign even and odds or send them to different rooms) but I wouldn't make them redo the work.   It will just make the work that much more of a THING TO HATE.  If you haven't given your reasons for assigning the material, I would do that.  Middle school kids are starting to feel the need for independence and autonomy,  so getting buy in now will make your job so much easier later! 

 

[katilac]

What gets inspected gets respected. They didn't see this work as being very important because you didn't monitor it for weeks. The work is also review, so it would be very easy for a sixth-grader to justify that watching his brother do the problems was review. Or they may have worked together, with one of them writing out the problems but the other helping verbally. That is actually not a bad study method at all. 

If you didn't explicitly tell them not to work together, I wouldn't even regard it as cheating. 

If you did, I would still be inclined to not make a huge deal of it. They are very young and, iirc, working well above grade level in at least some subjects. Just because a child is academically able to do a certain level of work does not mean they are developmentally ready to do that level of work routinely or without supervisoin. This is easier to see in younger kids - many kids who are able to read chapter books don't actually do so on their own until a year or more later. They have the skill but not the stamina or interest, they aren't developmentally ready. I would assume this indicates they aren't ready to do the work unsupervised. 

Should you decide that it's important enough to ruin their Saturday, then it's important enough to ruin your Saturday. They dropped the ball, you dropped the ball. Redoing all the work might be a BIG DEAL to them in terms of a punishment, but, if you don't think it's important enough to supervise, they are still not going to think the work is a big deal. They're just going to think dad is being mean. Punishment is the only reason to have them do it all at once. If learning is the important thing, they should redo it gradually. 

Mercy for a first offense. Clarify expectations and procedures. Recognize that they may need supervision now and for a long time coming. Adults have managers, adults have their work inspected. 

Addressing this in a non-punitive manner and acknowledging your own role in it is not going to cause them to run amok and become life-long cheaters. It will likely increase their respect for you, enhance the feeling that you are working as a team, and make it more probable that they will come to you on their own when they mess up in the future. 

[Farrar]

I also would not give anything for this other than a serious discussion and the natural consequence of the fact that you're now watched and not trusted. I don't believe in academic punishments generally... even for academic crimes like cheating. Study is never a punishment. Work is to demonstrate or attain mastery. End stop. I might have them redo the work because they didn't demonstrate the mastery or work on attaining the skills, but other than that, that's it.

[Gil]

After writing this out, I decided not give them the chance to cheat/lie again (as it'd just give them more to redo and make the task list that much longer ) so before they went to bed on Wednesday (night I posted this) I told them that because they'd been cheating, the work had to be redone properly and correctly before they could participate in any more football.
I'm giving them the chance to make up the missed work, and the schedule will just eat the days of loss time. When they're legitimately caught up, I'm not going to make them do double work or anything. We're just going to treat it like a few missed days and move on according to our normal routine/schedule.

When they missed football practice yesterday, they realized that I was absolutely serious and have been working hard on their own time to finish because they have a game on Saturday (tomorrow) and want to play.

[Gil]

On 10/6/2018 at 6:58 AM, Florimell said:

Do you have your kids doing math seven days per week? And you do pretty high-level math for middle schoolers, too, right? I know every kid is different, but mine would definitely push back at that. Maybe they just need a break.

Nah, I work hard to be sure that each of The Boys are appropriately placed and paced in each subject, and re-evaluate bimonthly for one boy and every 10 days for the other. So I'm confident that they don't need a break, rather they need me to be attentive and adhere to the routine as best as possible.

I'm a single parent and work 2.5 jobs so our life demands that I conduct their lessons and pace their review and practice sessions around my availability and schedule, not societal "standards" generalized from the idea that America is full of 2 parent families, middle of the road incomes, etc. Our schedule is carefully and cooperatively planned out and mutually agreed upon and we've set our schedule up to work for us and our reality. These past couple of weeks I was working the graveyard shift at my 2nd job, so when I get home, I'm not at my perkiest and was only doing a spot check for completion instead of carefully checking each answer. (They check their own work when they do it, but I still check and grade it to be sure that they're getting it correct or to note how many attempts it took them to get the correct answer or to look for patterns if they're getting anything wrong repeatedly etc.)

All of that to say, they began cheating because they are 10 and 11 years old and I failed to do my due diligence as a home schooling parent.
I got busy with a few things and allowed myself to be plain ol' distracted by others, but regardless of how busy I was, my 10 and 11 year olds still need closer supervision than they were given. Lesson learned.

Additionally, there is no "high level for middle schoolers" for home schooled students. Or "low level" either. As a home schooling father, I teach my kids where they are at, at the pace that they can conceptualize, apply and retain, and I assign work at the rate at which they can practice to mastery. When I say The Boys are "6th graders" or "middle schoolers" I mean it more as well understood a way of keeping track of time/generalizing their ages than anything else.