Venty vent maths!!!

[Ausmumof3]

Watching dd struggle through an achievement test for math and feeling a little frustrated.  This is a grade 4 end of year test and we are only three quarters through the year but ugh!  Nothing sticks with this kid.  She’s been doing subtraction since grade 1,2 and today she asked again which number do I take the top or the bottom!  Ugh.  Also we did diameter and radius two weeks ago and today she stared at her review and asked “ what’s diameter - I’ve never seen this before”!

not really looking for advice as I already have bought math mammoth and am switching next year and repeating year 4 very very slowly just feeling super frustrated.  And would rather share my frustration here than take it out on her!

[Arcadia]

If it’s only recently, I’ll be thinking of puberty fog. Two of my ex-classmates hit puberty in primary four (9 years old) while the rest of us hit puberty in primary five. (ETA: It was a convent school, all girls)

Hugs.

Edited September 5, 2018 by Arcadia

[Ausmumof3]

Didn’t even think about puberty!  Hope it’s not yet!!! Ugh...

[HomeAgain]

I know you're not looking for advice, so I'm going to give this unsolicited.  Every once in a while we read through the Sir Cumference series.  Lady Di of Ameter fits across the round table.  Her son, Rad, is only half as tall and can only reach to the middle.  Peri invented a new game of counting around objects.  I don't know if you can get the books there or something similar, but Sir Cumference is an absolute treasure when it comes to helping my kid remember.

[Another Lynn]

More unsolicited advice..... Math Mammoth would not have worked with my "nothing sticks" math-struggler.  We were more successful with spiral programs.  YMMV.  

[BusyMom5]

Saxon or CLE for kids like this!  T h E constant repetition makes it stick.

[RootAnn]

Yep, that sounds just like my kids. Really hilarious things come out of their mouths sometimes. They hate it when I insist on going through the concept over again since they obviously didn't get it the first time. The tears - since I'm insisting on not answering their question but leading them to the answer themselves! [I'll keep from throwing out unsolicited advice.] Just commiseration!

[ktgrok]

15 hours ago, Another Lynn said:

More unsolicited advice..... Math Mammoth would not have worked with my "nothing sticks" math-struggler.  We were more successful with spiral programs.  YMMV.  

 

11 hours ago, BusyMom5 said:

Saxon or CLE for kids like this!  T h E constant repetition makes it stick.

Agree totally. Definitely spiral for a kid like this. Try CLE.

[Farrar]

Another vote for CLE.

Or for slightly early puberty fog. It's real. I swear some of them forget their own names for a moment when it gets in the thick of it.

[Jann in TX]

Hopefully it is just 'puberty fog'--which is a real thing--but it can also be a true learning difference.  Dyscalculia is a type of dyslexia-- a brain processing error.  There are therapies/strategies that can help-- especially if started early.  It is highly unusual for a typical 4th grader to not remember how to work simple subtraction.  People with dyscalculia cannot 'hold' onto the facts because there is a disconnect.  They may remember a pattern in short term memory-- but it does not 'stick'-- it does not become a 'fact' they can recall and use in a situation.

Just something to consider if the 'fog' does not lift.

[Ausmumof3]

On 9/5/2018 at 7:09 PM, HomeAgain said:

I know you're not looking for advice, so I'm going to give this unsolicited.  Every once in a while we read through the Sir Cumference series.  Lady Di of Ameter fits across the round table.  Her son, Rad, is only half as tall and can only reach to the middle.  Peri invented a new game of counting around objects.  I don't know if you can get the books there or something similar, but Sir Cumference is an absolute treasure when it comes to helping my kid remember.

Lol!  We literally read this book in morning time two weeks ago when we were doing it.  Part of my frustration ... that she loved the story and had completely forgotten ir...

[Ausmumof3]

9 hours ago, Jann in TX said:

Hopefully it is just 'puberty fog'--which is a real thing--but it can also be a true learning difference.  Dyscalculia is a type of dyslexia-- a brain processing error.  There are therapies/strategies that can help-- especially if started early.  It is highly unusual for a typical 4th grader to not remember how to work simple subtraction.  People with dyscalculia cannot 'hold' onto the facts because there is a disconnect.  They may remember a pattern in short term memory-- but it does not 'stick'-- it does not become a 'fact' they can recall and use in a situation.

Just something to consider if the 'fog' does not lift.

Yes I have considered this.  She actually started out testing extremely highly on math reasoning aptitude tests when she was younger but then there have always been odd things like it took ages to get the way numbers progress from the 9 of one 10 to the next set of tens type thing.  It wasn’t till around grade 3 that she really hit a wall and a lot of it relates to long term memory type tasks.  This goes across the spectrum with months of the year, days of the week, alphabetical order, times tables, phone numbers the whole lot.  Yet she can remember endless screeds or obscure animal facts ... and manages to memorise Shakespeare.  I’m never sure how much is her also and how much is that I have always valued and worked toward conceptual understand and not spent as much time on learning rote information.  However my boys haven’t struggled to the same degree.  

Edited to add she totally gets subtraction conceptually but she struggles with the layout on page.  Left right up down directions are always difficult for her.  

Edited September 6, 2018 by Ausmumof3

[Ausmumof3]

On 9/5/2018 at 7:39 PM, Another Lynn said:

More unsolicited advice..... Math Mammoth would not have worked with my "nothing sticks" math-struggler.  We were more successful with spiral programs.  YMMV.  

Ok this is helpful. I’ve had it recommended as a good alternative to Singapore but I do have an old Saxon math so maybe I will give that a go instead.  Or mix and match a bit.  

[Ausmumof3]

Just to update on the test we were doing she tested into the 67th percentile which basically is the upper end of average for grade 4.  Not great but not a terrible result.  Well above the needs remediation strand.  I’m still not happy with retention and progress but am questioning my plan to redo the whole year versus just slowing down and taking more time with review on weak areas.  Maybe I’m expecting too much?  It’s just frustrating because she’s a bright kid in lots of ways (science score was extremely high) but I feel like this is going to hold her back long term.

[Ausmumof3]

9 hours ago, Farrar said:

Another vote for CLE.

Or for slightly early puberty fog. It's real. I swear some of them forget their own names for a moment when it gets in the thick of it.

I suspect this is my son right now!  Definitely having his moments...

[Arcadia]

2 hours ago, Ausmumof3 said:

  It wasn’t till around grade 3 that she really hit a wall and a lot of it relates to long term memory type tasks.  This goes across the spectrum with months of the year, days of the week, alphabetical order, times tables, phone numbers the whole lot.  

 

DS12 had to remember by singing. He still sings the days of the week song when he forgets. What is weird is that he could get the German days of the week, months of the year, seasons correct way before the English ones. He sings the German ones (both kids made their own songs) to remember. Chinese is easy for that as January is just first month and Monday is just 1st weekday with Sunday being the special case.

Those timed drills worksheets didn’t work for DS12, it was too much on one page. We had to drill him verbally on car rides.

Both kids remembered the first 20 elements of the periodic table by making up their own song. Then they visually memorized the locations on the periodic table chart. 

DS12 did the times table a lot better if he is in motion whether it was walking around the living room, sprawl on the floor and swinging his legs in the air, doing bridges (gym). Even now he does his work while swinging his feet in the air.

For DS12’s case, his difficulty in memorizing has to do with sequential stuff. Remembering what comes after what. So he could remember all the days of the week but put them in the wrong order, like forget that Friday comes after Thursday. Setting sequential stuff to music helped.

While DS13 has a good photographic memory, he remembers stuff by singing and/or drawing. Ironically both kids won’t join choir.

[Another Lynn]

5 hours ago, Ausmumof3 said:

Just to update on the test we were doing she tested into the 67th percentile which basically is the upper end of average for grade 4.  Not great but not a terrible result.  Well above the needs remediation strand.  I’m still not happy with retention and progress but am questioning my plan to redo the whole year versus just slowing down and taking more time with review on weak areas.  Maybe I’m expecting too much?  It’s just frustrating because she’s a bright kid in lots of ways (science score was extremely high) but I feel like this is going to hold her back long term.

Good!  So glad she tested well after all.  Maybe more frequent repetition will help her get to automaticity on some things that she doesn't feel sure of yet.  

[LMD]

A few thoughts, may be helpful or not!

1. I have a kid that at that age bombed tests. He'd get frustrated, over think, get frazzled. Bomb. Part of that was just maturity.

2. They're never too old for manipulatives. Maths concepts are abstract, putting them in concrete makes it clearer. I spent a lot of time teaching long division with base 10 blocks.

3. Conversely, is she bored and therefore not concentrating? I have been known to allow chapter skipping if they ace the end of chapter exercise. 

4. Good luck! Lol.

[Smiles]

Just curious how she does with testing? I'm a nervous wreck when I test! When I took my state board tests it was like I drew a blank and I also had to go to the bathroom several times to throw up! Some people handle it differently! After my test I could think a lot clearer! I did pass, I'm not sure how! I have one child that struggles with testing and my other two think it's fun! Which I find bizzare! 

[Ausmumof3]

2 hours ago, Smiles said:

Just curious how she does with testing? I'm a nervous wreck when I test! When I took my state board tests it was like I drew a blank and I also had to go to the bathroom several times to throw up! Some people handle it differently! After my test I could think a lot clearer! I did pass, I'm not sure how! I have one child that struggles with testing and my other two think it's fun! Which I find bizzare! 

I don’t know if test anxiety is a huge thing. She does express a bit of nervousness but also excitement if that makes sense.  Same for Tkd grading.  I don’t think it’s purely that though because it also reflects what I’m seeing with day to day math lessons.  Lack of retention from week to week and lots of small errors.

[Ausmumof3]

On 9/8/2018 at 12:58 PM, LMD said:

A few thoughts, may be helpful or not!

1. I have a kid that at that age bombed tests. He'd get frustrated, over think, get frazzled. Bomb. Part of that was just maturity.

2. They're never too old for manipulatives. Maths concepts are abstract, putting them in concrete makes it clearer. I spent a lot of time teaching long division with base 10 blocks.

3. Conversely, is she bored and therefore not concentrating? I have been known to allow chapter skipping if they ace the end of chapter exercise. 

4. Good luck! Lol.

It’s like a combination pack I think.  She’s bored because she’s already heard it but at the same time she hasn’t fully grasped it so she isn’t acing anything.  She’s bored of hearing the same explanation that still doesn’t stick.  

I do think more manipulative work is going to be the key for this kid.  When we do it she gets more engaged and loses the eyes glazed over look when I’m just explaining it.  It just takes a bit more effort I guess.  In early years we did everything with cuisenaire rods and she complained a lot less.  Also definitely she needs more real life exposure to measurement, angles, shapes and forms.

she has a funny mix of academic strength and weaknesses (and all of life actually).  

[Arcadia]

11 hours ago, Ausmumof3 said:

I do think more manipulative work is going to be the key for this kid.  When we do it she gets more engaged and loses the eyes glazed over look when I’m just explaining it.  It just takes a bit more effort I guess.  In early years we did everything with cuisenaire rods and she complained a lot less.  Also definitely she needs more real life exposure to measurement, angles, shapes and forms.

 

Does she need manipulatives or does she need a fidget, or both? My kids sometimes twirl a pencil or twirl their hair to concentrate. Their fringe (hair) is curly partially due to all that twirling while doing school work.

Pitching a 6 or 10 men tent at your backyard or beach might help for measurements, angles, spatial awareness in general.

[LMD]

Yeah, manipulatives take much longer and I often forget until he's frustrated, then I remember! I often just draw them out on paper lol. Just this week we drew all sorts of things to show the concept of multiplying fractions...

He often tries to jump in with overconfidence when he's kind of grasped the surface level of a concept, acts annoyed like I'm patronising him trying to explain again lol. Manipulatives help here too, it feels like fun and it's the blocks doing the 'explaining' 

I also work hard to support the idea that mistakes are great, your brain fires more synapses when you make an error (even if you don't realise it) and resolving it/working through is really good for developing that understanding. Incorrect answers are like road signs, they help us eliminate choices and point us to the answer. 

?

[MerryAtHope]

I hope things are going better this week!

[ktgrok]

7 hours ago, Paradox5 said:

I'm impressed that your kids will actually listen to you explain math to them! Mine won't at all and so struggle.

Are we opening this thread up for all to vent about math difficulties with our kids? I'll start! 

My 14yr old ASD (more like 10yr old) refuses to write his own math problems out, listen to me teach or read the lesson. He has not memorized most of his math facts. He still uses his fingers! He says he is afraid to get it wrong. He sees mistakes as failures instead of growth opportunities. He will not do word problems because he says they confuse him, and he doesn't know what process to use to solve them; yet he won't let me teach him how to figure that out! He wants math to be fast yet will not let me teach him the shortcuts. 

Teaching Textbooks worked fairly well for my kid like that. He was more willing to listen to the computer than me. 

[Ausmumof3]

On 9/13/2018 at 3:47 AM, Paradox5 said:

I'm impressed that your kids will actually listen to you explain math to them! Mine won't at all and so struggle.

Are we opening this thread up for all to vent about math difficulties with our kids? I'll start! 

My 14yr old ASD (more like 10yr old) refuses to write his own math problems out, listen to me teach or read the lesson. He has not memorized most of his math facts. He still uses his fingers! He says he is afraid to get it wrong. He sees mistakes as failures instead of growth opportunities. He will not do word problems because he says they confuse him, and he doesn't know what process to use to solve them; yet he won't let me teach him how to figure that out! He wants math to be fast yet will not let me teach him the shortcuts. 

I’m all for sharing math gripes!  My oldest is doing far better with math when he can read and understand the textbook himself.  He’s not good with explanations.  And also refuses to write anything down except the answer!

[Ausmumof3]

On 9/12/2018 at 3:24 PM, MerryAtHope said:

I hope things are going better this week!

Well a little.  We aren’t likely to finish sing 4 this year unless the pace picks up a lot.  But we’re doing area of rectangles and square and it seems pretty easy for her.  Whether she remembers it next month is another question. 

We might keep going through the summer or I might get some simple 4th grade review to tackle over the summer I thi j.

[Arcadia]

59 minutes ago, Ausmumof3 said:

My oldest is doing far better with math when he can read and understand the textbook himself.  He’s not good with explanations.  And also refuses to write anything down except the answer!

That’s what writing phobic DS13 did with Singapore Maths and some of the Art of Problem Solving books. He will write all the required working for outside maths exams to get his A ? 

56 minutes ago, Ausmumof3 said:

  We aren’t likely to finish sing 4 this year unless the pace picks up a lot.  But we’re doing area of rectangles and square and it seems pretty easy for her.  Whether she remembers it next month is another question. 

 

My friend is having more problems with Singapore Maths than her primary school daughter. The Thinking Blocks website is useful for bar model problems https://www.mathplayground.com/mobile_thinking_blocks.html

[Ausmumof3]

On 9/15/2018 at 10:58 AM, Arcadia said:

That’s what writing phobic DS13 did with Singapore Maths and some of the Art of Problem Solving books. He will write all the required working for outside maths exams to get his A ? 

 

My friend is having more problems with Singapore Maths than her primary school daughter. The Thinking Blocks website is useful for bar model problems https://www.mathplayground.com/mobile_thinking_blocks.html

Oh cool thank you!  She will like this being game based!