s/o What do you consider child abuse?

[Peek a Boo]

I think most kids who are being spanked are able to say loud and clear "no, I don't want to be spanked." Thus I feel they have the ability to consent or not consent. I also think children should have the same rights as adults, including the right not to be harmed against their will.

 

 

yes, they have the ability to SAY something, but they don't have the emotional maturity to make serious decisions about their life ---which is usually why they needed the discipline in the first place.

 

We don't accept that the child needs to 'consent' to being educated, well-fed, or kept safe. That they can say they don't want to do any of those things reflects NOTHING on their ability to reach a reasoned consensual decision.

 

My children do NOT have the option of breaking laws like other adults do.

My children do NOT have the right to eat junk food till they are sick like other adults do.

My children do NOT have the right to go wandering around after dark like other adults can.

My children do NOT have the right to get drunk and hang out at a bar like other adults do.

 

and as pqr mentioned, the same consequences that apply to adults simply won't/can't apply to children --because they are children, not small adults.

 

no --I do NOT think children should have the same rights as adults: they do, however, have a variety of limited choices to help them grow into an independent adult that CAN make rational decisions.

 

i do agree that most people treat children w/ a ridiculously small amount of respect.

[bumbledeb]

I'm against spanking, but I don't believe that it qualifies as reportable abuse.

 

I'm *more* against the parenting approaches that consider spanking training and suggest spanking as primary (and usually frequent) discipline.

 

I am wholeheartedly against thinking punishment and discipline and training are synomymous.

 

While I don't believe "a spanking" is reportable, I do believe that frequent spanking creates a hostile, angry awful environment for a child.

 

I do believe that spanking infants is *always and without question* abuse.

 

I do believe that spanking older children is *always and without question* abuse.

 

I believe the above 2 are *always and without question* poor parenting.

 

I like in a state where spanking is assumed, where a school district nearby still spanks, where "spanking" with a belt is expected. I believe it compromises quality parenting. In general, I think our children are over punished and under disciplined.

 

I think that you are probably right - spanking may not be a reportable abuse.

 

I'm not sure I understand something about your post though. Spanking infants is abuse and spanking older children is abuse...... Are you saying there is a period of a person's life where it is not abusive to be spanked but before and after this age it is abusive? I'm wondering what could be the reasoning here, if you don't mind explaining.

[Peek a Boo]

I learned how to parent better because I got a tougher kiddo where spanking and punishment not only didn't work but made our home a miserable place to be. I had to learn better discipline because I still only had the same 16-21 years with this kiddo that everyone else has but had a lot more obstacles to overcome. This child NEEDED better discipline. So many people assume that those of us that learn better must have easy kids. If we had easy kids, we never would have spent SO much time and effort into learning better. We wouldn't have had a reason to because the ways everyone use would work. Instead, we learned better because we had to in order to help this kiddo make it to adulthood and then to end up being a happy, healthy, contributing member of the family, society, and congregation.

 

ETA: This is not to say I believed in doing "whatever" before. I wanted to be a better parent than my father so I had tried to learn ways so as not to be angry, punish in harsh ways, etc. And I believe in parents aiming to become better and better, but mostly I was happy enough with what I had learned and only did SIGNIFICANTLY better because my kid required me to learn to do so.

 

Surely you understand that I had to use generalities and overused examples as you didn't give any specifics. I just had to pull SOMETHING out of thin air :) I addressed some of what you said in my original post (such as allowing certain natural consequences but not others for obvious reasons). Were you really interested in learning something better or simply in arguing that it's possible to discipline without punishment?

 

One thing though? From childcare, fostering, and parent coaching, I have noticed that people tend to teach their kids to up the anty. They inadvertantly teach their kids to listen only once they get to 3, a certain decible level, a spank. They also accidentally teach their kids that milder forms of discipline are a joke. You can back up and unteach those things though.

 

 

I think the thing to be careful about here is that one way isn't necessarily better for every child. I am convinced that homeschooling is better than public or other institutionalized schooling. Others would posit that it's not better, just works better for that particular kid/ parent.

 

There are some kids who --yeah, even at 6yo-- are not going to respond to anything less than physical punishment for sticking scissors in outlets. I'm sure those kids are few and far between, but they are out there.

[Peek a Boo]

I think that you are probably right - spanking may not be a reportable abuse.

 

I'm not sure I understand something about your post though. Spanking infants is abuse and spanking older children is abuse...... Are you saying there is a period of a person's life where it is not abusive to be spanked but before and after this age it is abusive? I'm wondering what could be the reasoning here, if you don't mind explaining.

 

 

I would look at basic childhood development: back to grammar, logic, and rhetoric stages :)

 

infants aren't doing things to be deliberately defiant, so there's no point.

Older kids can respond well to reason and other discipline that affects their whole world, not just the moment.

[bumbledeb]

I think the thing to be careful about here is that one way isn't necessarily better for every child. I am convinced that homeschooling is better than public or other institutionalized schooling. Others would posit that it's not better, just works better for that particular kid/ parent.

 

There are some kids who --yeah, even at 6yo-- are not going to respond to anything less than physical punishment for sticking scissors in outlets. I'm sure those kids are few and far between, but they are out there.

 

Maybe the parents of such children aren't trying hard enough to find alternatives to physical punishment since it is an option available to them?

 

I don't know about where you are, but here, foster parents are not allowed to use physical punishment under any circumstances. They have no choice but find alternative means of keeping the children from sticking scissors into electrical outlets. And they do.

[bumbledeb]

I would look at basic childhood development: back to grammar, logic, and rhetoric stages :)

 

infants aren't doing things to be deliberately defiant, so there's no point.

Older kids can respond well to reason and other discipline that affects their whole world, not just the moment.

 

Ah. OK, I see the sense in what you are saying. I think. So, it would be abuse to spank a child who is not being deliberately defiant, or a child who can be reasoned with?

[Pamela H in Texas]

I think the thing to be careful about here is that one way isn't necessarily better for every child.

 

I don't suppose that there is ONE WAY better for EVERY child (or even most). Instead, I simply believe that EVERY child can be taught, guided, corrected, helped, etc without spanking. There is a HUGE difference between the two things, I'm sure you know. There are hundreds of discipline tools, some better, some horrible. Parents can pick and choose what things work for their individual children and families. Dropping ONE tool (or TEN) wouldn't render ANY parent unable to parent effectively unless they chose to allow it to do so. Discipline tools are CHOICES parents make to use or not.

[Pamela H in Texas]

So, it would be abuse to spank a child who is not being deliberately defiant, or a child who can be reasoned with?

 

Not legally so though. It may be abuse in the mind of an individual, but in most states/countries, it's perfectly okay to hit your own kid within certain parameters, EVEN when they are infants or "older children."

 

In my first post, I outlined what I considered abusive but made it clear that little of it was abuse in a legal definition type of way. I wouldn't call CPS for what I don't like. I would for clear legal abuse. I would hope the family would learn a little better or would at least refrain from crossing the line.

Edited November 15, 2008 by 2J5M9K

[Joanne]

I think that you are probably right - spanking may not be a reportable abuse.

 

I'm not sure I understand something about your post though. Spanking infants is abuse and spanking older children is abuse...... Are you saying there is a period of a person's life where it is not abusive to be spanked but before and after this age it is abusive? I'm wondering what could be the reasoning here, if you don't mind explaining.

 

Well, that's a great query. I don't know if I can articulate a response. I don't believe spanking is ever OK. I think it is always inappropriate. I just don't intuitively, gut level feel its abuse after infancy and before ... Double digits?

[bumbledeb]

Well, that's a great query. I don't know if I can articulate a response. I don't believe spanking is ever OK. I think it is always inappropriate. I just don't intuitively, gut level feel its abuse after infancy and before ... Double digits?

 

Maybe because it's more culturally acceptable where you live? Or during your own childhood?

 

My own intuitive gut feeling is that it is abusive whatever the age, but I'm not saying I'd report someone for it...... I'd rather talk to the person, if I could and suggest some websites, books or whatever to help them find alternatives.

[st_claire]

If you don't think they have the maturity to decide, then shouldn't you assume that they do not want to be hit, since that is vastly most often the case with adults? If someone can't speak for themselves, err on the side of caution, and assume they don't want to be harmed.

 

And I do think a child needs to consent to being educated, well-fed, or kept safe. If my child wants to leave home, I don't think I should have the right to stop them. Most children will want to stay in a loving home. If the child truly wants to leave (not just running away for a few hours type thing), then most of the time something is seriously wrong in that house and the child should get out of there asap!

 

 

yes, they have the ability to SAY something, but they don't have the emotional maturity to make serious decisions about their life ---which is usually why they needed the discipline in the first place.

 

We don't accept that the child needs to 'consent' to being educated, well-fed, or kept safe. That they can say they don't want to do any of those things reflects NOTHING on their ability to reach a reasoned consensual decision.

 

My children do NOT have the option of breaking laws like other adults do.

My children do NOT have the right to eat junk food till they are sick like other adults do.

My children do NOT have the right to go wandering around after dark like other adults can.

My children do NOT have the right to get drunk and hang out at a bar like other adults do.

 

and as pqr mentioned, the same consequences that apply to adults simply won't/can't apply to children --because they are children, not small adults.

 

no --I do NOT think children should have the same rights as adults: they do, however, have a variety of limited choices to help them grow into an independent adult that CAN make rational decisions.

 

i do agree that most people treat children w/ a ridiculously small amount of respect.

[Joanne]

Maybe the parents of such children aren't trying hard enough to find alternatives to physical punishment since it is an option available to them?

 

I don't know about where you are, but here, foster parents are not allowed to use physical punishment under any circumstances. They have no choice but find alternative means of keeping the children from sticking scissors into electrical outlets. And they do.

 

Yes. This is one of my frustrations as a person whov teaches parenting and gets paid to watch and teach kids. While each child does need child specific discipline, no personality or temperment makes me feel spanking or arbitrary punishment is needed. Professionally, I have worked with hundreds.

[tibbyl]

... I don't know about where you are, but here, foster parents are not allowed to use physical punishment under any circumstances. They have no choice but find alternative means of keeping the children from sticking scissors into electrical outlets. And they do.

 

Bumbledeb, I live in state of Tennessee, which also prohibits spanking of foster children. Prospective foster parents are required to sign statement that they will refrain from using prohibited discipline methods.

 

Their rules for acceptable discipline for foster children are spelled out as follows:

 

From page 46 in Tennessee Foster Care Handbook:

 

The following forms of punishment MUST NOT BE USED:

-Corporal punishment, such as slapping, spanking, or hitting with any object.

-Excessive exercising (particularly of a military nature), running laps, doing repetitive situps, etc.

-Cruel and unusual punishment.

-Assignment of excessive or inappropriate work.

-Denial of meals and daily needs.

-Verbal abuse, ridicule, or humiliation.

-Permitting a child to punish another child.

-Chemical or mechanical restraints. Ex: using psychotropic medications as a restraint.

-Denial of planned visits, phone calls, or emails with family or FSW.

-Threat of removal from home.

-Seclusion as a punishment.

-Any punishment that occurs more than 24 hours after the inicident.

[pqr]

And I do think a child needs to consent to being educated, well-fed, or kept safe. If my child wants to leave home, I don't think I should have the right to stop them.

 

Stunned into silence!

 

 

Though I suspect I will recover and continue to force my kids to eat their veggies, something they would frequently refuse if their consent was actually asked.

[st_claire]

Really? You think your kid would rather move out of your home than eat their veggies? I doubt it.

 

 

Stunned into silence!

 

 

Though I suspect I will recover and continue to force my kids to eat their veggies, something they would frequently refuse if their consent was actually asked.

[pqr]

Really? You think your kid would rather move out of your home than eat their veggies? I doubt it.

No, but neither do I ask their consent about the veggies or their ability to move out.

[SonshineLearner]

Let's post some reality. Spanking is not abuse. Not panking is not permissive. The presence or absence of spanking in a child's life says absolutely nothing about the quality of family life or discipline. Terrific and awful parents are found on both sides of that issue.

 

Children need loving, engaged pareents who understand developmental behavior. They need lots of discipline and punishment should not be frequent.

....

 

 

So, I have no problem with spanking, but I also have no problem with non-punitive rearing of children. I feel no need to be punitive, and when I have spanked, I've tried to use it more as a tool to discipline (explain, encourage, direct) than as a "punishment". In other words, if you will somehow change this....(whatever behaviour is inappropriate) then there's no need to punish...

 

I have read tons of books, and looked at the off your butt parenting:-)

 

What do you do with a child, when you realize that somehow you've missed the mark? When you wish that somehow you'd learned how to encourage the child to take more personal responsibility?

 

How do you "start over" when the child is older. It's not like you can just switch jobs and have a "do-over" next time.

[JumpedIntoTheDeepEndFirst]

I don't know about where you are, but here, foster parents are not allowed to use physical punishment under any circumstances.

 

 

And I do think a child needs to consent to being educated, well-fed, or kept safe. If my child wants to leave home, I don't think I should have the right to stop them.

 

 

There are two huge discrepancies here:

 

First, foster parents (despite the needed service they provide) are not parents. They are caring for the child as an agent of the state and a temporary guardian in lieu of the actual parents. The limitations of their "rights" are necessary due to the fact that they are not the actual parents.

 

Second, perhaps the current state of obesity in children is due to parents who feel their children have the right to consent to (and there by the right to refuse) what they are fed. Let's see-what does the average eight year old want-Twinkies or Green Beans?

 

Hmmm......Food for thought?;)

[Philothea]

I've observed that the children who needed the spankings the most, were the ones that were never spanked.

 

I thank both of my parents for spanking me, I needed it and deserved it, every time. And when I got older and overstepped my boundaries, I am glad that my mother gave me a slap across the face to put me back in my place. Actually, she should have spanked us more, we never respected her when she didn't.

[Laura Corin]

Actually, she should have spanked us more, we never respected her when she didn't.

 

I was never spanked, and have not spanked my children. I was respectful of my parents, and I often get compliments on the politeness of my children (one of whom was heading towards being quite a handful before I worked out how to give him loving guidance).

 

Laura

[Harriet Vane]

 

First, foster parents (despite the needed service they provide) are not parents. They are caring for the child as an agent of the state and a temporary guardian in lieu of the actual parents. The limitations of their "rights" are necessary due to the fact that they are not the actual parents.

 

 

 

In addition to this, foster parents are dealing with children who have been hurt, usually significantly and over a long period of time. Such children do have to be treated differently. Comparing traumatized, abused children to children growing up in stable, loving families is futile.

[Caroline]

I was never spanked, and have not spanked my children. I was respectful of my parents, and I often get compliments on the politeness of my children (one of whom was heading towards being quite a handful before I worked out how to give him loving guidance).

 

Laura

 

I agree with what Laura posted. I was never spanked or slapped. I have always had respect for my parents. My children are not spanked, nor do I believe they need to be. I don't think children ever need to be spanked. I know children who are spanked, but I think what they really need is to be hugged.

[Jenny in Atl]

I agree with what Laura posted. I was never spanked or slapped. I have always had respect for my parents. My children are not spanked, nor do I believe they need to be. I don't think children ever need to be spanked. I know children who are spanked, but I think what they really need is to be hugged.

 

:iagree:

[DB in NJ]

I believe spanking infants is always abuse.I think that is a reasonable perspective.

 

The OP talked about "spanking" much older children, even adult! That is not only abuse but sick and unhealthy.

 

I do not understand how that is unsulting.

 

If you read the rest of my post, you'll see that I do NOT support generalizations about parents who spank or not.I don't consider the extremes in the OP spanking.And I do not believe spanking equals abuse.

 

You also said, "Well, that's a great query. I don't know if I can articulate a response. I don't believe spanking is ever OK. I think it is always inappropriate. I just don't intuitively, gut level feel its abuse after infancy and before ... Double digits?" Which implies that you DO believe it's abuse after double digits (I concede that spanking an infant is inappropriate).

 

You've contradicted yourself here. Also, you do not have older children; how can you say that spanking an "older" child is "not only abuse but sick and unhealthy." Your idea of "older" is over double digits, according to your response above. You mean to say that if I were to spank my 11 year old it would be abuse, sick, and unhealthy?

[hsmamainva]

I agree with what Laura posted. I was never spanked or slapped. I have always had respect for my parents. My children are not spanked, nor do I believe they need to be. I don't think children ever need to be spanked. I know children who are spanked, but I think what they really need is to be hugged.

 

:hurray:

 

I couldn't agree with you more!!!

 

And I can't imagine ever slapping one of my children across the face!

[Joanne]

I've observed that the children who needed the spankings the most, were the ones that were never spanked.

 

I thank both of my parents for spanking me, I needed it and deserved it, every time. And when I got older and overstepped my boundaries, I am glad that my mother gave me a slap across the face to put me back in my place. Actually, she should have spanked us more, we never respected her when she didn't.

 

Is this sarcastic? I am asking isincerely.

 

Children never need a SPANKING but I agree that some children's behavior screams for discipline.

 

Slapping a human across the face is never acceptqble, particularly a minor one.

[Laura Corin]

I don't think children ever need to be spanked. I know children who are spanked, but I think what they really need is to be hugged.

 

I never smacked Calvin, but was starting to use punishments (time-outs, etc.) One day, he started to touch something that he had been told to leave alone. He was right in front of me, and I was just starting to build my outrage when, I don't know why, I suddenly sat on the floor and gathered him into my arms. We hugged for a long time, then I talked to him about why he shouldn't touch the forbidden object. He toddled off and that was the end of the story.

 

I think that what he needed, in his confused, very young, unformed brain, was to get a reaction out of me. He wanted to know that I cared about him enough to stop what I was doing and pay attention to him. It wasn't about disobedience, defiance, wickedness; it was a need for love. I demonstrated that love, he was satisfied, he didn't need to disobey any more. Why should I have smacked him, when a cuddle worked just as well?

 

Laura

[DB in NJ]

Is this sarcastic? I am asking isincerely.

 

Children never need a SPANKING but I agree that some children's behavior screams for discipline.

 

Slapping a human across the face is never acceptqble, particularly a minor one.

 

Oh, I don't think I agree (surprise! LOL). I can think of a few instances where a slap across the face would be entirely appropriate.

 

Maybe it would help if you qualify your statements with stuff like, "In my opinion" or "it's my belief" or "I think." I'm sure the thought is there, it's just not said, which makes these sound like broad, sweeping statements.

[LisaNY]

Oh, I don't think I agree (surprise! LOL). I can think of a few instances where a slap across the face would be entirely appropriate.

 

Maybe it would help if you qualify your statements with stuff like, "In my opinion" or "it's my belief" or "I think." I'm sure the thought is there, it's just not said, which makes these sound like broad, sweeping statements.

 

Two stories to affirm that opinion, DB...

 

After my father passed away, my older brother, about 19 at the time, was being very disrespectful to my mom one night. He was kind of getting in her face and everything. She hauled off and slapped him across the face, and basically told him to NEVER, EVER speak to her that way again. Problem solved.

 

Another very similar story - this one is my dh's brother, also some time after his father passed away. He was on the front porch with his gf, when his mother walked out and asked him something. He answered her, and referred to her as "woman", which earned him a crack across the face, too. Problem solved.

[Joanne]

You also said, "Well, that's a great query. I don't know if I can articulate a response. I don't believe spanking is ever OK. I think it is always inappropriate. I just don't intuitively, gut level feel its abuse after infancy and before ... Double digits?" Which implies that you DO believe it's abuse after double digits (I concede that spanking an infant is inappropriate).

 

You've contradicted yourself here. Also, you do not have older children; how can you say that spanking an "older" child is "not only abuse but sick and unhealthy." Your idea of "older" is over double digits, according to your response above. You mean to say that if I were to spank my 11 year old it would be abuse, sick, and unhealthy?

 

Why are you focused on only that part of my participation in this thread? There are many other ideas and perpectives I have shared.

 

I have a going on 14 year old, a 12 year old and my baby will soon be doublebdigitd. I think I have mothered long enough to have earned the right to an opinion on spanking older children. I see nothing inconsistent about my perspective. However, eve if there were, parenting and parenting theory is complex enough to warrant many levels.

 

Do I think you spanking your 11 year old is good, healthy parenting? No. And I've had 2 11 year olds with one on the way and have been a paid caregiver to dozens.

[DB in NJ]

Why are you focused on only that part of my participation in this thread? There are many other ideas and perpectives I have shared.

I have a going on 14 year old, a 12 year old and my baby will soon be doublebdigitd. I think I have mothered long enough to have earned the right to an opinion on spanking older children. I see nothing inconsistent about my perspective. However, eve if there were, parenting and parenting theory is complex enough to warrant many levels.

 

Do I think you spanking your 11 year old is good, healthy parenting? No. And I've had 2 11 year olds with one on the way and have been a paid caregiver to dozens.

 

Because I don't have the energy to sit here and write out a response to everything I disagree with :D

 

Yes, you have earned the right to an OPINION on spanking YOUR older children. You have neither the right nor the professional credentials to tell me that if I spank MY 11 yo that it is not good, healthy parenting.

 

ETA: We have friends who recently bragged about spanking their 15 yo for her disobedience. We felt it was inappropriate because it was not a natural consequence for her actions. The problem (which I am counseling her for) goes much deeper than that. They also removed privileges, again missing the mark. I will also say that I cannot conceive of spanking my 13 yo or my 17 yo; they are beyond that at this point. Other forms of communication and discipline have taken the place of spankings. Even my 9yo responds very well to stern lectures or loving explanations. What I'm trying to say in questioning your statements is that I am sure for OTHER parents, spanking their 11 yo or 15 yo or 17 yo *is* appropriate.

Edited November 16, 2008 by DB in NJ

[Philothea]

Is this sarcastic? I am asking isincerely.

 

Children never need a SPANKING but I agree that some children's behavior screams for discipline.

 

Slapping a human across the face is never acceptqble, particularly a minor one.

 

That is one opinion.

 

But I support a parent's right to discipline how they see fit. From harsh to hippie styles, it's really not up to me. I just think the "Nellie Olsens" of this world need a good swat on the rear but I could care less if they get what they deserve. Just don't ask me to baby sit!

 

Parents tend to overlook the faults of their own children because it reflects on them, even to the point of defending their children's bad behavior.

[Laura Corin]

Yes, you have earned the right to an OPINION on spanking YOUR older children. You have neither the right nor the professional credentials to tell me that if I spank MY 11 yo that it is not good, healthy parenting.

 

Nor am I telling you what to do. I would worry, however, about spanking a child who is approaching puberty. I remember how confused my relationship was with my body was at that time, and I also know that the sensations of pain and pleasure can be strangely close, even in perfectly normal people. I am thinking about the pain/pleasure experienced when very cold hands warm up, or when you step into a hot tub.

 

I leave that with you, and won't be addressing this aspect of the thread again.

 

Best wishes

 

Laura

[Joanne]

 

Yes, you have earned the right to an OPINION on spanking YOUR older children. You have neither the right nor the professional credentials to tell me that if I spank MY 11 yo that it is not good, healthy parenting.

 

ETA: We have friends who recently bragged about spanking their 15 yo for her disobedience. We felt it was inappropriate because it was not a natural consequence for her actions. The problem (which I am counseling her for) goes much deeper than that. They also removed privileges, again missing the mark. I will also say that I cannot conceive of spanking my 13 yo or my 17 yo; they are beyond that at this point. Other forms of communication and discipline have taken the place of spankings. Even my 9yo responds very well to stern lectures or loving explanations. What I'm trying to say in questioning your statements is that I am sure for OTHER parents, spanking their 11 yo or 15 yo or 17 yo *is* appropriate.

 

Actually, I have every right to believe that spanking teens is always bad parenting and unhealthy.

[DB in NJ]

Nor am I telling you what to do. I would worry, however, about spanking a child who is approaching puberty. I remember how confused my relationship was with my body was at that time, and I also know that the sensations of pain and pleasure can be strangely close, even in perfectly normal people. I am thinking about the pain/pleasure experienced when very cold hands warm up, or when you step into a hot tub.

 

I leave that with you, and won't be addressing this aspect of the thread again.

 

Best wishes

 

Laura

 

Did you read my edit? I'll just add here that we haven't spanked in our house for years; haven't had the need to. We're very thankful that our children desire to obey and please us, and vice versa. At my house it's all about having loving, respectful relationships (mutual ones). But I do believe parents have the right to decide which approach is right for their each one of their children.

[Laura Corin]

Did you read my edit?

 

Laura

[DB in NJ]

Actually, I have every right to believe that spanking teens is always bad parenting and unhealthy.

 

You can believe whatever you want, obviously. What I said though was that you don't have the right to tell ME that it's wrong for me to do it (or anyone else for that matter).

[Stacy in NJ]

I've never spanked because I've never needed to. Quite frankly, I think that spanking is frequently a tool used by people who have, generally, poor parenting skills.

 

That said, I don't think that spanking done while the parent is in control of themselves and is proportionate to the "crime" is abuse.

 

I agree with the poster who said that NOT disciplining a child is as abusive as an over agressive spanker.

[DB in NJ]

Clearly there are many instances where physical discipline of any kind could be considered appropriate or inappropriate; abuse, not abuse.

 

What I find abusive other than what I deem inappropriate physical touching or violence would be the LACK of discipline of any kind, neglect, overindulgence, and total lack of natural consequences.

[Laura Corin]

What I find abusive other than what I deem inappropriate physical touching or violence would be the LACK of discipline of any kind, neglect, overindulgence, and total lack of natural consequences.

 

I think that you and I have different markers for those extremes, however. You see limited spanking as within the range of desirable discipline, whilst I do not. Neither of us condones an approach that fails to provide a child with the security of known boundaries.

 

Off to bed.

 

Laura

[DB in NJ]

I think that you and I have different markers for those extremes, however. You see limited spanking as within the range of desirable discipline, whilst I do not. Neither of us condones an approach that fails to provide a child with the security of known boundaries.

 

Off to bed.

 

Laura

 

Well said. G'night, Laura :grouphug:

[Erica in PA]

.

Edited November 16, 2008 by Erica in PA

[Joanne]

What I find abusive other than what I deem inappropriate physical touching or violence would be the LACK of discipline of any kind, neglect, overindulgence, and total lack of natural consequences.

 

I completely, totally and wholeheartedly agree!!

 

I'll call your list and add logical consequences to your "needed" list.

[DB in NJ]

I completely, totally and wholeheartedly agree!!

 

I'll call your list and add logical consequences to your "needed" list.

 

Stop the presses!!!! :lol:

 

And poker speak to boot! ;)

[Joanne]

Stop the presses!!!! :lol:

 

And poker speak to boot! ;)

 

Yes, well, I am at my poker work. It's slow today, which is why I have been able to argue with you all afternoon.

[Peek a Boo]

Maybe the parents of such children aren't trying hard enough to find alternatives to physical punishment since it is an option available to them?

 

I don't know about where you are, but here, foster parents are not allowed to use physical punishment under any circumstances. They have no choice but find alternative means of keeping the children from sticking scissors into electrical outlets. And they do.

 

I'm sure that there are PLENTY of parents who aren't trying hard enough on whatever issue for WHATEVER reason --like, are parents who aren't homeschooling not homeschooling because they aren't trying hard enough, or because they see a more effective way to accomplish a couple of key things for their family?

 

 

and yeah, i know about the limits on foster families. It's one of the reasons i refuse to be put under the scrutiny of the foster system.

[Peek a Boo]

If you don't think they have the maturity to decide, then shouldn't you assume that they do not want to be hit, since that is vastly most often the case with adults? If someone can't speak for themselves, err on the side of caution, and assume they don't want to be harmed.

 

that's why we don't haul off and hit for no reason. But even adults are prone to physical punishment when they step outta line -- that's why police carry guns and people are trained in self defense. I absolutely believe in training a child. And that training is to set them up to AVOID spankings and other physical punishments and think through a situation before doing something wrong. So it is not my intent to 'assume they want to be hit'-- it is my intent to resolve a situation the most efficient way i can, based on what i know about the options, possible consequences, and the child's demeanor.

 

And I do think a child needs to consent to being educated, well-fed, or kept safe. If my child wants to leave home, I don't think I should have the right to stop them. Most children will want to stay in a loving home. If the child truly wants to leave (not just running away for a few hours type thing), then most of the time something is seriously wrong in that house and the child should get out of there asap!

 

except what happens if some wacko pervert has talked your dc into living w/ THEM? Are you going to LET them?? A child simply DOES NOT have the experience or maturity to make those decisions for themselves.

 

Yes, most children want to stay in a loving home. And many children will opt to stay w/ a dysfunctional family too. And many battered women actually do have some sick sort of needy relationship and won't leave. And even children in a loving home are prone to the ol' 'the grass is always greener' syndrome and want to move in w/ another family who gets chicken nuggets every night for dinner.....because they are CHILDREN and don't have teh experience or maturity to think about the Whole Picture. What people 'want' isn't always in their best interest.

[Elaine]

I would like to offer a public thanks to my parents for every single time they spanked me. My father believes in the belt and you can be sure it left a mark.

 

I was spanked for:

lying; rudeness; poor grades; violating the rules of the household; hurting my younger siblings; doing anything that was dishonorable and laziness.

 

I learned many of life's lessons through this and no matter how much it hurt I never felt that it was done unfairly. Following the punishment I was always given a hug and reminded that I was loved.

 

My father never told me "this is going to hurt me more than you," but even at a young age I could tell that it hurt him to spank.

 

It seems to me that a lot of today's children could do with a spanking once in a while.

 

One poster stated,

 

 

 

 

I do not see how this works. I can not fire my child, make him homeless, send him to prison or any of the other consequences of misbehavior in "real life." Obviously I would never want to, but these are real life consequences.

 

Spanking DOES "promote a true understanding of the world. " It demonstrates that there are consequences for actions and that they can be painful.

 

I only think back to my childhood, once we moved to the States. In PS I ran into many boys whose parents would never spank them. Indeed I heard the snide comment about "I would sue them."

 

I was a little younger than the other boys in my class and subject to bullying. My main tormentor was one of these boys. Despite being talked to about his behavior (by his parents) he continued. Had his parents spanked him for his behavior, it might have stopped as the application of pain is a great behavioral modifier. Eventually, in a fight, I broke his nose and it was this application of pain that led him to leave me alone. I blame his parents and their "enlightened" view for the tyrant that their child became.

 

I know far far more children who were ruined by refusal of their parents to spank than were ever hurt by excessive punishment.

 

What a fantastic post.:001_smile:

[Peek a Boo]

Ah. OK, I see the sense in what you are saying. I think. So, it would be abuse to spank a child who is not being deliberately defiant, or a child who can be reasoned with?

 

 

That depends. If you are dealing w/ a younger child that continues to do something wrong because their training w/ non-punitive consequences hasn't worked, it may very well be reasonable to use a punitive consequence where pain is the association w/ the behavior. I prefer to not START w/ that sort of training, but if other methods haven't worked and the unwanted behavior is dangerous for either the child or those around them, then it seems prudent to try Something Else.

 

And I'll refer back to my [and others'] post about ABUSE vs spankings.

[Laura in VA]

Stunned into silence!

 

 

Though I suspect I will recover and continue to force my kids to eat their veggies, something they would frequently refuse if their consent was actually asked.

 

 

;)